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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just answers.

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Speaker 2: Now. Hello, this is doctor Justin Coilson, and welcome to

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Speaker 2: the Happy Families Podcast. Today we're picking up on a

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Speaker 2: conversation that we had a few weeks ago, maybe five

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Speaker 2: or six weeks ago now with James Anderson. If you

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Speaker 2: missed it, we will link to it in the show notes.

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Speaker 2: It was I think a really important conversation for any

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Speaker 2: parent of children, who kids who are struggling, kids who

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Speaker 2: aren't quite sure about their learning, or kids who avoid

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Speaker 2: doing things that are hard because they don't want to

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Speaker 2: do hard things. And it's not necessarily because they're lacking motivation.

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Speaker 2: It may be more to do with mindset. James Anderson

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Speaker 2: works with schools, James works with parents. He's a speaker,

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Speaker 2: an author, and educator, and he knows about kids and learning.

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Speaker 2: So I'm really excited to have him back on the podcast. James,

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Speaker 2: thanks for joining me again to talk about kids and

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Speaker 2: their learning.

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Speaker 1: Absolute pleasure to be here again, Justin.

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Speaker 2: So I want to have a conversation today about this

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Speaker 2: idea that you've developed called learnership. We hear all the

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Speaker 2: time about things like leadership. But learnership is this concept

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Speaker 2: that you've developed to help kids be skillful learners. Help

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Speaker 2: us to understand this and white matters.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Look, learnership is one of these things we don't

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Speaker 1: intuitively understand that I'll put it. Let me put it

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Speaker 1: this way. A mentor of mind described thinking and learning

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Speaker 1: to me this way. That we all learn to move

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Speaker 1: like as a young child. We crawl when we're ready,

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Speaker 1: we stand up and walk when we're ready, and we

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Speaker 1: can all move naturally, and we all learn naturally as well.

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Speaker 1: You know, we come along, we learn how to feed ourselves,

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Speaker 1: we learn how to talk and do all the rest

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Speaker 1: of it. But some of us, as we grow, learn

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Speaker 1: to become very graceful, very powerful, very coordinated movers, and

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Speaker 1: while some of the rest of us go through life

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Speaker 1: stumbling through the world and bumping into the door frames

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Speaker 1: with two left feet. And the same is true of learning.

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Speaker 1: That while we can all naturally learn, some of us

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Speaker 1: learn very skillfully, very effectively. We train ourselves to be

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Speaker 1: more effective in the skill of learning. And it's that

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Speaker 1: idea to think about learning not just as something we do,

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Speaker 1: but rather as something we do well to get better

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Speaker 1: at the process of getting better that this idea of

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Speaker 1: learnership is all about.

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Speaker 2: So let's imagine that there's a parent who's listened to

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Speaker 2: this podcast who has a child who hates learning, who says,

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Speaker 2: I don't want to learn. Now, I don't believe that

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Speaker 2: because they might not want to learn at school, but

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Speaker 2: they're pretty excited about learning on the soccer pitch, or

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Speaker 2: they're really excited about learning about Pokemon, or they're really

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Speaker 2: excited about learning about something. It's just the school stuff

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Speaker 2: that they're not drawn to. How do we help that

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Speaker 2: parent to engage a child in learning, especially when the

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Speaker 2: child doesn't seem to have any interest in the learning

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Speaker 2: that we as a society have deemed essential for that

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Speaker 2: child to learn.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well that question is probably related back to our

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Speaker 1: last podcast where we talked about mindset. So the kid

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Speaker 1: with a fixed mindset thinks learning is about discovering their abilities,

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Speaker 1: whereas the kid with a growth mindset understands that learning

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Speaker 1: is about creating their abilities. And once you understand that

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Speaker 1: learning is about creating changing yourself, not about finding out

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Speaker 1: if you're good at maths, but becoming good at maths,

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Speaker 1: then the next sensible question to ask is, well, how

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Speaker 1: do I get good at becoming what I want to become.

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Speaker 1: And so the first thing we can do as parents

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Speaker 1: is start having that conversation, not just about what you're

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Speaker 1: learning at school. Like when children come home from school,

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Speaker 1: we say what did you learn today?

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Speaker 2: Nothing? I learned nothing at all.

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Speaker 1: That's an whole other conversation. But rather than having that conversation,

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Speaker 1: ask the question, how did you learn today? What were

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Speaker 1: you doing today as you were trying to learn? For example,

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Speaker 1: when I talk about learnership, one of the characteristics I

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Speaker 1: talk about is our relationship to challenge, and this is

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Speaker 1: connected to our mindsets. Staff that some kids, when they

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Speaker 1: are confronted with challenges, will avoid them altogether, and that's

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Speaker 1: often a mindset issue. They think the challenge is going

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Speaker 1: to measure and judge them. Some students will accept a

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Speaker 1: challenge up to the point that they know they can succeed.

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Speaker 1: They'll do their best. This is what I call a

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Speaker 1: performance learner. These are the children you've probably come across

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Speaker 1: that like to go to dah, look what I can do,

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Speaker 1: Look what I can do. But as soon as you say,

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Speaker 1: try this slightly hard thing, they'll go, no, I can't

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Speaker 1: do the thing they can do?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they avoid what they can't do

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Speaker 2: and they approach what they can do that's.

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Speaker 1: Right, and there's lots of research around how kids know

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Speaker 1: where that is. Some students will be compliant, you know,

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Speaker 1: they'll attempt to challenge that the teacher gives them and

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Speaker 1: just sort of walk through being led through the learning

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Speaker 1: process by the teacher. Some students, as you get a

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Speaker 1: better relationship with challenge, will start to target their own challenge,

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Speaker 1: set their own goals, so I want to get here.

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Speaker 1: Rather than the teachers saying this is where we're going,

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Speaker 1: the student will say, this is where I want to go.

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Speaker 1: But really, really skillful learners start embracing challenges. They embrace

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Speaker 1: challenges in the spirit of JFK when he's talking about

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Speaker 1: the moon landings and he said, we do these things

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Speaker 1: not because they are easy, but because they are hard.

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Speaker 1: That they know that every time they challenge themselves, they

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Speaker 1: change themselves, and that these learners that I call non learners,

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Speaker 1: the ones that are not accepting challenges at all. They

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Speaker 1: go through a class or the day they starts, day finishes,

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Speaker 1: they've produced nothing, and they're the same the students that

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Speaker 1: follow the teachers instruction or just do their best the

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Speaker 1: day starts, they produce staff, but they stay the same

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Speaker 1: at the end of the day. The students that stretch

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Speaker 1: them challenge themselves that embrace challenges they start the day

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Speaker 1: they produce things, but they produce them in a way

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Speaker 1: that who they are. They grow as a result, and

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Speaker 1: they're the ones that when we talk about lifelong learners,

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Speaker 1: they're the ones that are really on that journey of

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Speaker 1: continuously growing because they're out there doing things because they

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Speaker 1: are hard.

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Speaker 2: Neurodiverse children are beautiful, but they also bring unique challenges

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Speaker 2: for parents and educators. The world does not always accommodate

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Speaker 2: them easily or well. Communication, affection, behavior, learning, and almost

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Speaker 2: every other aspect of life can be challenging for the

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Speaker 2: child and their families. The webinar A Parent's Guide to

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Speaker 2: Autism by leading autism expert Michelle Garnett can help parents

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Speaker 2: and educators strengthen the bond with their autistic children for

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Speaker 2: better outcomes for children and families. A Parent's Guide to

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Speaker 2: Autism is available at Happy Families dot com dot a U.

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Speaker 2: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast of the type

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Speaker 2: or parent who just wants answers Now My guest today

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Speaker 2: on the pod is is James Anderson. James works in

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Speaker 2: schools and with parents around issues related to helping our

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Speaker 2: children to become skillful learners, to move into what we

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Speaker 2: would typically call today a growth mindset. I may be

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Speaker 2: going off track just a little bit with this, James,

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Speaker 2: but as I hear you talk about this student, this

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Speaker 2: child who embraces challenge and who grows as a result,

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Speaker 2: versus kids who are perhaps less excited, less enthusiastic about

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Speaker 2: what challenges mean, there's part of me that is chafing

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Speaker 2: a little bit because of the way our school system

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Speaker 2: demands that all children participate in the same challenges. All

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Speaker 2: children have to do the same classes, they have to

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Speaker 2: follow the same curriculum. I love the concept that we

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Speaker 2: want our kids to embrace challenges, but why do they

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Speaker 2: all have to embrace the same challenges. Now that might

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Speaker 2: be beyond the scope of our conversation, but I wonder

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Speaker 2: if you have anything to say about individuality and helping

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Speaker 2: kids find and follow their own strengths and what that

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Speaker 2: can do to direc them in the path of that

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Speaker 2: lifelong learnership, that agility around learning, that growth that comes

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Speaker 2: from embracing challenge.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, great question. I'll just challenge you a little bit

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Speaker 1: on the idea of find and follow their strengths, that

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Speaker 1: that concept when we talk about finding and following your

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Speaker 1: strengths is one of discovering your abilities. It's actually quite

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Speaker 1: a fixed mindset concept. And what I would suggest to

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Speaker 1: you is that the way we want to talk to

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Speaker 1: our children is to have them choose what they want

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Speaker 1: to become rather than discover what they have, and therefore

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Speaker 1: can only be this choose what things you want to become.

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Speaker 1: To do that, you've got to get this relationship with challenge.

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Speaker 1: And I think this is where the essence of your

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Speaker 1: question comes in, because you're right the system. We could

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Speaker 1: change the system and allow students to negotiate curriculum and

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Speaker 1: all sorts of things, and we would probably have to

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Speaker 1: have a much longer podcast to talk about.

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Speaker 2: The This is not the two hour podcast for the

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Speaker 2: time a free parent, the parent who's got lots of time.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't need any answers in a hurry.

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Speaker 1: The two hour summary of how we fix the education system.

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Speaker 1: But I think we can talk about something here that

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Speaker 1: will be of benefit to answering your question, answer your

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Speaker 1: listeners as well. One of the things that learner who's

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Speaker 1: out there embracing challenges, choosing to become who they want

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Speaker 1: or need to be, understands is what it feels like

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Speaker 1: to be in their learning zone. You mentioned at the

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Speaker 1: start of the podcast about the child who runs away

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Speaker 1: from challenge, that doesn't want to put the effit in

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Speaker 1: that sort of thing. And part of the reason is

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Speaker 1: that they expect things to be easy or hard, and

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Speaker 1: if it's hard, it's going to be hard today, it's

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Speaker 1: going to be hard tomorrow, the next day, the next day,

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Speaker 1: the next day. And who wants to do that? So

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Speaker 1: what they do is they go, all right, I'll do fine,

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Speaker 1: find the things that are easy for me. And so

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Speaker 1: to help our children through that, we need them to

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Speaker 1: understand what it feels like to be in their learning zone.

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Speaker 1: Let me explain that concept. You've heard about the comfort zone.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's where there is no growth, but gee,

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Speaker 2: it's a nice place to be from time to time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, But there's a big misunderstanding about our comfort zone.

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Speaker 1: We hear parents and educators people talk about, you know,

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Speaker 1: you've got to get outside your comfort zone, do something new,

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Speaker 1: do something different. But your comfort zone is full of

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Speaker 1: things that you've mastered a long time ago. But it's

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Speaker 1: also full of things that are what I call easy

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Speaker 1: things you haven't done yet. All right, the world is

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Speaker 1: full of easy things you haven't done yet. Now let

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Speaker 1: me put you on the spot. Do you know you're

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Speaker 1: fifteen times tables justin.

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Speaker 2: I've never practiced them before, but I reckon I could

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Speaker 2: nail it if I had to. We've got fifteen thirty,

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Speaker 2: forty five, sixty seventy five, ninety, one hundred and five,

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Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty, one hundred and thirty five, one

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Speaker 2: hundred and fifty.

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Speaker 1: There we go, Oh someone showing off?

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Speaker 2: There you go. I don't know how I did that.

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Speaker 2: I've never practiced that before.

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Speaker 1: But it was you never had the time to learn it. Normally,

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Speaker 1: I say to people, if I gave you a day,

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Speaker 1: would you be able to learn them? And they go, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I could do that in a day. You've done it

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Speaker 1: in ten seconds. But the point is, as an adult,

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Speaker 1: we've got the ability to go away and do it.

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Speaker 1: Would only take time. Sure we can know with confidence

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Speaker 1: at the end of that amount of time we would

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Speaker 1: do it with one hundred percent accuracies, well within my

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Speaker 1: current abilities. The point here is that your comfort zone

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Speaker 1: is full of those things that are easy, things you

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Speaker 1: haven't done yet. And a lot of people think that

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Speaker 1: I'll do something new, and some things I do and

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Speaker 1: new are going to be easy. And that's getting outside

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Speaker 1: your comfort zone. It's not Your next sort of level

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Speaker 1: up is doing your best, doing your performance, and that's

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Speaker 1: where you draw on all your resources. You do your

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Speaker 1: current best, and we love our best because again we

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Speaker 1: can be confident, and that's ability to produce that standard.

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Speaker 1: But you don't get better by doing your best. You

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Speaker 1: get better by stretching and challenging yourself to go just

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Speaker 1: beyond your current best. It's what psychologists sometimes called the

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Speaker 1: zone of proximal development.

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Speaker 2: That's right, Levvygotsky's idea of the zone of just a

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Speaker 2: bit more than what you're comfortable with right now.

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Speaker 1: That's right. And I've never seen a child proximately develop,

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Speaker 1: so I call it a learning zone. But it's the

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Speaker 1: same thing. And the point there is that as you

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Speaker 1: go beyond your current best, you feel uncomfortable, you feel uncertain.

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Speaker 1: And for that child who thinks that learning is about

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Speaker 1: discovering their abilities, they're going, well, that's the limit of

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Speaker 1: my abilities. I can't go there. And they rush straight

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Speaker 1: back to the comfort the certainty of their comfort and

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Speaker 1: performance zones. And what happens then is that you learn

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Speaker 1: to fear going into your learning zone. The relationship that

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Speaker 1: we're talking about here is to get to understand, to

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Speaker 1: get to know your learning zone. And so one of

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Speaker 1: the things we talk about is identifying those times when

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Speaker 1: it's okay to be in your comfort and performance zones.

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Speaker 1: So sometimes we want to do breadth work, we need

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Speaker 1: to perform and do the things well, but we need

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Speaker 1: to know other times when actually, today we're going into

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Speaker 1: that learning zone and to expect that it's going to

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Speaker 1: feel like struggle, it's going to feel uncertain, it's going

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Speaker 1: to feel i'd say seven out of ten uncomfortable, not

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Speaker 1: ten out of ten, just like unsure and uncertain, and

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Speaker 1: that we're going to have to put that effort in there,

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Speaker 1: because the effort is the cost of growth. You see,

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Speaker 1: we talked about the kids who go, well it's hard,

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Speaker 1: I'll stop. They think, if this next step is hard,

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Speaker 1: the next step is going to be harder. The next

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Speaker 1: step is going to be harder again, the step after

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Speaker 1: that is and of course they give up. Who wants

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Speaker 1: to go down that path. But someone with a growth

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Speaker 1: mindset recognizes that it's only hard until you make it easy.

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Speaker 1: You invest the effort, and the thing that used to

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Speaker 1: be hard becomes easy.

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Speaker 2: Ralph Edison said that which we persist in doing becomes

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Speaker 2: easy for us to do, not that the nature of

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Speaker 2: the thing itself has changed, but that our power to

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Speaker 2: do has increased.

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Speaker 1: That's right. And the people think that hardness difficulty is

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Speaker 1: a property of the problem, it's not a property of

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Speaker 1: the problem at all. It's a property of or the

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Speaker 1: relationship between our current abilities and the problem. And if

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Speaker 1: we raise our current abilities, the thing that used to

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Speaker 1: be hard becomes easy. And so what I'm wanting parents

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Speaker 1: to do and teach us to do is to talk

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Speaker 1: about what it feels like to be in your learning

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Speaker 1: zone and to help students understand or children understand that

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Speaker 1: being in your learning zone, that struggle that we feel,

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Speaker 1: that uncertainty, that this comfort we feel is a temporary feeling,

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Speaker 1: not a permanent one. The price of growth is struggle

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Speaker 1: and effort, and once we pay the price, once we

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Speaker 1: go through the right type of effort, we grow and

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Speaker 1: the things that used to be hard become easy.

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Speaker 2: James I. Conversation. I'm sure that parents are sitting here

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Speaker 2: going yes, yes, I just need my children to understand it,

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Speaker 2: because this is a podcast for a time for parents

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Speaker 2: who just want answers. Are there any specific ways that

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Speaker 2: parents can talk to their kids in like a minute

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Speaker 2: or less, Things that they can say to their kids

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Speaker 2: when they're saying I can't it's too hard, don't want

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Speaker 2: to know what comparents do and say to help them

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Speaker 2: to get into that zone of proximal development, to get

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Speaker 2: into that learning zone, to become agile learners, kids who

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Speaker 2: love the challenge because they know it's going to stretch them,

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Speaker 2: grow them, and then make something that was hard easy.

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Speaker 1: All right, So two things I think i'd suggest. One

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Speaker 1: is what we've just been talking about, to recognize that

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Speaker 1: you need to get comfortable with that discomfort, that that

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Speaker 1: struggle is a part of the process of growth, and

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Speaker 1: that that struggle is a temporary thing in the moment.

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Speaker 1: Particularly if those students are on the low growth end

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Speaker 1: of the continuum, they're probably not going to buy that.

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Speaker 1: Repeat the message though, helps. The second thing is to

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Speaker 1: help them recognize where that's occurred in the past, to

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Speaker 1: recognize their own backstory, to say, think back to the

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Speaker 1: last hard thing you did. How easy is that now?

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Speaker 1: And to recognize that struggle has paid off in the past,

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Speaker 1: it'll pay off again in the future. Yeah, I love it.

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Speaker 2: Can I throw in a third one that just popped

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Speaker 2: into my head as you were saying that. I think

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Speaker 2: it's useful for us as parents world to highlight I'm

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Speaker 2: no good at this, but guess what I've been working

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Speaker 2: on it, and look what I can do when they

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Speaker 2: see you struggling with stuff. And I love that quote.

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Speaker 2: I love what you said, Effort is the price of growth.

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Speaker 2: Brilliant when they see us putting in the effort so

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Speaker 2: that we can grow. Surely that example's got to be

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Speaker 2: worth something.

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Speaker 1: We could have another whole podcast on the idea of effort.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps save that for another day.

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Speaker 2: Hey, James, if people want more from you, whether they're

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Speaker 2: parents or maybe their school leaders who would love to

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Speaker 2: bring you on board so that you can have a

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Speaker 2: chat with them and their educators or parents who want

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Speaker 2: your resources, Where do they go?

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Speaker 1: What do they do? Yeah? Just jump onto my website

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Speaker 1: James Anderson dot com dot au slash Parenting for the

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Speaker 1: Parents and you can jump onto my blog there I've

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Speaker 1: got a whole lot of downloadable resources, and I run

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Speaker 1: regular workshops of parents as well to help them unlimit

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Speaker 1: their child, develop growth mindsets and develop their learnership in

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Speaker 1: the school.

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Speaker 2: Useful and valuable conversation, James Anderson. What a treat to

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Speaker 2: have that conversation. Thanks so much for joining us. The

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Speaker 2: Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media.

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Speaker 2: Craig Bruce is our executive producer and if you would

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Speaker 2: like more resources to make your family happier, why not

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Speaker 2: check out a Happy Families membership. All the details at

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Speaker 2: happy families dot com dot au