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Speaker 1: Already and this this is the Daily This is the

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Speaker 1: Daily OS. Oh, now it makes sense. Good morning and

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Speaker 1: welcome to the Daily OS. It's Thursday, the eighth of January.

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Speaker 1: I'm Billy fitz Simon.

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Speaker 2: I'm Sam Kazloski.

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Speaker 1: Where is the line when it comes to the online

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Speaker 1: harassment of public figures? Well, a group of people in

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Speaker 1: France have just found out. Earlier this week, ten people

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Speaker 1: were found guilty of cyber bullying France's First Lady, Brigitte

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Speaker 1: Macron over repeated false online claims about her gender identity

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Speaker 1: and her relationship with her husband, French President Emmanuel mccron. Well,

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Speaker 1: tell you what you need to know about the landmark

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Speaker 1: case in today's podcast.

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Speaker 2: Billy, A really interesting topic that we've got fevor on today.

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Speaker 2: It's less about French politics and it's more about the

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Speaker 2: Internet and the changing way in which the Internet is governed.

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Speaker 2: Before we rip into the case this week and the results,

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Speaker 2: why don't you explain to us who bite Macron is

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Speaker 2: for anyone? And I'm sure there's quite a few of

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Speaker 2: us who aren't super close followers of French politics.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Well, like you said, luckily, this actually isn't that

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Speaker 1: much about French politics. All you need to know is

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Speaker 1: the French president who is Emmanuel Macron, and his wife

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Speaker 1: who is Brigitte Macron. So she is France's first lady

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Speaker 1: and she has been since twenty seventeen, which is when

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Speaker 1: Emmanuel Macron became president. Now, Brigitte Macron is also a

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Speaker 1: former drama teacher, and quite famously, she was actually Emmanuel

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Speaker 1: Macron's drama teacher.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's how they first met, right, is how they.

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Speaker 1: First met, and that is part of why the pair

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Speaker 1: have been subject to so much speculation and misinformation and

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Speaker 1: harassment since they entered the political arena all those years ago.

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Speaker 1: So just some quick context to explain that relationship a

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Speaker 1: little bit more so. Emmanuel mccron was fifteen when they

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Speaker 1: first met. They met at a school where Brigitte was

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Speaker 1: a drama teacher. She was thirty nine at the time.

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Speaker 1: She was married with kids. She then divorced her husband

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Speaker 1: and the to her and Emmanuel. They formed a relationship

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Speaker 1: after he left school. They married in two thousand and seven.

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Speaker 2: So ten years before he became the president.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and he was twenty nine when they got married.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so that kind of sets the scene on their relationship.

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Speaker 2: It's unusual for us on this podcast to be talking

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Speaker 2: about the personal relationships of world leaders, but when it

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Speaker 2: was put in front of a course, it kind of

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Speaker 2: became the focal point. Why don't you tell me about

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Speaker 2: this case?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So, Brigitte Macron, she filed this legal complaint against

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Speaker 1: a group of people whose posts on X which is

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Speaker 1: formerly Twitter. Those posts gained a lot of attention on

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Speaker 1: and as you know on Twitter, as you probably know, sorry,

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Speaker 1: on X, I should say you don't necessarily need a

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Speaker 1: super large following in order for your post to gain

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Speaker 1: widespread attention.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of like TTOK in that way, where one post,

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Speaker 2: if you've got one follower, that can still get in

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Speaker 2: front of millions of people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so in terms of what those posts actually said,

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Speaker 1: the group accused missus Macron of pedophilia over her relationship

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Speaker 1: with President Macron, and those claims were false. So the

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Speaker 1: court ruled on that that any suggestion of pedophilia when

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Speaker 1: it comes to their relationship is wrong. On top of

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Speaker 1: those claims, so they were the ones that linked the

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Speaker 1: relationship to pedophilia. But then separate to that, there were

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Speaker 1: also posts that spread an online conspiracy theory that alleged

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Speaker 1: missus macron was born male under the name Jean Michel,

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Speaker 1: which is actually the name of her older brother. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so some of the posts claimed that her brother had

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Speaker 1: changed gender and started using her name Bridget.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So, I mean, there's lots of misinformation about most

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Speaker 2: public figures and most political figures in the world. What

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Speaker 2: do we know about the defendants? These ten people who

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Speaker 2: you keep talking about is the group that made these claims.

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Speaker 1: So we know that there were eight men and two

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Speaker 1: women in this group. Their ages ranged between forty one

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Speaker 1: and sixty five, and most of them denied wrongdoing. There

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Speaker 1: was just one of them who apologized to missus mccron

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Speaker 1: during the trial. Now, those who denied wrongdoing, they argued

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Speaker 1: the posts were said in a satirical nature or were

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Speaker 1: just meant to be taken as lighthearted jokes as you

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Speaker 1: know on the internet, lighthearted, I guess jokes are set

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Speaker 1: all the time, but you can't.

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Speaker 2: Really convey tone right now, no written comments.

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Speaker 1: But what this court found is that they were malicious

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Speaker 1: in the intent behind these posts and that they could

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Speaker 1: not have been considered lighthearted in nature when they were

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Speaker 1: making such serious claims like pedophilia.

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Speaker 2: So just clarify for me what exactly was the crime

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Speaker 2: that they were prosecuted and ultimately found guilty of.

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Speaker 1: So cyberbullying and online harassment, which is the same thing.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So they went and they tried to defend themselves

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Speaker 2: against these crimes. They lost, they were found guilty, and

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Speaker 2: they were sentenced, right, they were sentenced.

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Speaker 1: I will also just quickly mention that one other thing

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Speaker 1: that they said in their defense is that they said

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Speaker 1: some of what they posted should actually be cause for

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Speaker 1: legitimate public debate. So this actually should be something they

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Speaker 1: said that should be out there for the public to

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Speaker 1: debate and make up their own mind on. Does that

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Speaker 1: make sense.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's kind of I mean, I'm not very

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Speaker 2: familiar with French defamation law and French free speech law,

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Speaker 2: but it sounds like it's kind of the same principles

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Speaker 2: that we have here in Australia, which is, you're allowed

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Speaker 2: to make fun of political figures as political satire and

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Speaker 2: it's fairy hard to sue someone, for example, for defamation

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Speaker 2: because of that. And you're also allowed to have discussions

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Speaker 2: about topics which are really relevant to public interest and

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Speaker 2: they deserve to be talked about in public. It sounds

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Speaker 2: like they tried to argue that these topics, the perophilia

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Speaker 2: allegations and the gender questions were relevant to the public

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Speaker 2: discourse and or meant to be funny, and they lost

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Speaker 2: on both of those accounts exactly.

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Speaker 1: They argued that, but the court overruled them and said no,

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Speaker 1: this was actually cyberbulling and was malicious in its attent.

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Speaker 2: So they're going to prison.

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Speaker 1: So they were found guilty of cyberbulling and they were

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Speaker 1: given something called suspended prison terms, which just means that

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Speaker 1: they can remain in the community under really strict conditions,

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Speaker 1: and if they break those conditions, then they will go

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Speaker 1: to jail. One person was actually jailed immediately because they

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Speaker 1: failed to turn up to court. That was one part

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Speaker 1: of the sentence. Another part is that they had to

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Speaker 1: receive mandatory online harassment awareness training, which I didn't know

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Speaker 1: was a thing, but it is a thing. And then

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Speaker 1: there were also fines involved. So each defendant was fined

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Speaker 1: around one thousand Australian dollars and they were also ordered

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Speaker 1: to collectively pay about seventeen five hundred Australian dollars. Again,

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Speaker 1: I've just done the conversion in compensation to Brigitte Macron.

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Speaker 2: It actually is interesting to hear you explain this case

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Speaker 2: in the context of other news reports that came out

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Speaker 2: last week talking about how France might follow Australia's lead

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Speaker 2: in legislating a under sixteens social media ban. It sounds

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Speaker 2: like they're kind of on the front foot here in

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Speaker 2: terms of legislating and regulating social media.

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Speaker 1: Well, you could definitely say that Emmanuel Macron is at

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Speaker 1: the forefront of, you know, creating this push to crack

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Speaker 1: down on social media in France.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but I mean even the fact that if you

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Speaker 2: think about how many anonymous posters there are on the Internet,

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Speaker 2: the fact that they had, you know, people of the

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Speaker 2: same nationality is them that they could prosecute in the

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Speaker 2: National Court. It's pretty remarkable. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Wait, I have one more thing to add with the sentence.

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Speaker 1: They also the defendants, some of them have been banned

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Speaker 1: from using x which is the social media platform that

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Speaker 1: was involved in this case. They've been banned from using

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Speaker 1: it for six months.

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Speaker 2: The other thing I thought of was Candace Owens, the

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Speaker 2: US political commentator, because Brigitte mccron is also suing.

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Speaker 1: Her, right, Yes, so there are actually several ongoing legal

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Speaker 1: actions that have been brought forward by missus macron. This

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Speaker 1: is one of them. There is also Candace Owens, and

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Speaker 1: then there are also others, so there's quite a few.

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Speaker 1: In terms of Candace Owens, she's definitely the most high

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Speaker 1: profile person who Missus mcron has tried to sue or

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Speaker 1: is suing. For anyone who doesn't know Candace Owens, she

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Speaker 1: is an American right wing political commentator and she's been

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Speaker 1: known for promoting conspiracy theories online. You might recognize her

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Speaker 1: name because the Australian government did refuse her entry to

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Speaker 1: the country when she tried to come here for speaking

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Speaker 1: to her. Now, Missus mccron filed a defamation lawsuit against

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Speaker 1: Owen's last July over her claims that missus mcron was

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Speaker 1: born a man.

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Speaker 2: So those same gender claims that you talked about in

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Speaker 2: the other case.

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Speaker 1: Owens actually published an eight part YouTube series called Becoming

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Speaker 1: Bridgite which included those claims. So this wasn't just you know,

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Speaker 1: a post here or there. This is an eight.

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Speaker 2: Part yeah, an offhanded comment, Yeah, no, this.

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Speaker 1: Is a you know, something that was very carefully considered

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Speaker 1: in how it was published. Clearly if it's an eight

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Speaker 1: part YouTube series, and separate to the gender claims, she

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Speaker 1: also actually claimed that the Macrons are blood relatives, and

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Speaker 1: there were a whole range of other claims that I

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Speaker 1: won't get into, but you know, it was much larger

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Speaker 1: than just the gender point. Now that case is yet

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Speaker 1: to go to trial, but will be very high profile

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Speaker 1: when it does. I will also just quickly mention that

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Speaker 1: there has been another ruling on this kind of case before.

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Speaker 1: It actually involved one of the same defendants sentenced this week.

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Speaker 1: Interesting now, that case initially ruled in Missus mccron's favor,

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Speaker 1: just like this one that we're spoken about today did,

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Speaker 1: but then it was overturned on appeal, and the appeals

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Speaker 1: court said the reason that it was overturned is because

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Speaker 1: they concluded that saying someone has changed their gender, or

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Speaker 1: accusing someone of changing their gender is not necessarily an

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Speaker 1: attack on their honor, which is the core principle of defamation.

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Speaker 2: Law, a really messy part of the law. I think

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Speaker 2: all of this and what really stood out for me

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Speaker 2: is that we're essentially talking about trolling here and in

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Speaker 2: what is quite a new space, the Internet, and it's

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Speaker 2: quite you know, now it's standard that all political leaders

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Speaker 2: are trolled across every platform. We haven't seen too many

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Speaker 2: cases like this where trolls are actually prosecuted and prosecuted

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Speaker 2: successfully by a high profile person, you know, as clear

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Speaker 2: cut as the French court has decided here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's also a story about fake news. Like

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Speaker 1: you and I know people are posting fake news on

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Speaker 1: I mean not just you and I know, everyone knows this,

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Speaker 1: that people are posting fake news to the Internet all

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Speaker 1: the time. And at what point does it cross a

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Speaker 1: line where a court needs to actually get involved here,

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Speaker 1: whether that's because you've posted something that is completely untrue

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Speaker 1: or because it's actually really hurting someone. I also think,

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Speaker 1: just to end on this note, I briefly said it before,

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Speaker 1: but what's particularly interesting about this case is that these

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Speaker 1: weren't necessarily people with really large followings. Some were, but

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Speaker 1: some weren't. And you don't need to have a large

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Speaker 1: social media following for your words to make a difference

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Speaker 1: in the arena of social media and the arena of Internet.

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Speaker 1: You can, you know, be someone who doesn't have many followers,

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Speaker 1: but you can still have a really huge impact with

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Speaker 1: your words. And that's what this case is also about which.

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Speaker 2: I guess is the beauty and scary part of algorithms

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Speaker 2: that your words with one hundred followers can actually explode

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Speaker 2: to millions and millions. Billy, thank you for taking us

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Speaker 2: through that really messy and constantly evolving part of the law.

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Speaker 2: As we know from the end of last year, this

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Speaker 2: is a really major area of law reform, is the

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Speaker 2: way in which online claims are presented to court and

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Speaker 2: prosecuted successfully. Thanks so much for that.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. It's not often that I'm explaining the law

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Speaker 1: to you.

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Speaker 2: I know, it's quite fun, but it's quite a pleasure.

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Speaker 2: It's really interesting, and thank you for joining us today

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Speaker 2: on TDA. We're going to be back in the afternoon

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Speaker 2: with some of those evening headlines for you, but until then,

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Speaker 2: have a wonderful day. My name is Lily Maddon and

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Speaker 2: I'm a proud Arunda Bunjelung Kalgutin woman from Gadighl Country.

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Speaker 1: The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on

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Speaker 1: the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to

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Speaker 1: all Aboriginal and torrest Rate island and nations. We pay

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Speaker 1: our respects to the first peoples of these countries both

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Speaker 1: past and present,