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Speaker 1: Even before we fled our workplaces amid the COVID pandemic

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Speaker 1: to set up at home. Yob Van Dervolt was convinced

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Speaker 1: that remote working was the future.

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Speaker 2: He's the founder and.

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Speaker 1: CEO of Remote and was previously the VP of Product

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Speaker 1: at git Lab, so he knows a thing or two

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Speaker 1: about remote work. Job's philosophy is that the easier it

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Speaker 1: is to start doing your work, the easier it is.

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Speaker 2: To actually do your work.

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Speaker 1: Home offices should be built for comfort, efficiency and reliability.

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Speaker 1: So in this interview we go deep into the ultimate

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Speaker 1: home office setup.

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Speaker 2: The first half of this.

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Speaker 1: Interview goes into gear, gadgets, software. It's a bit of

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Speaker 1: a nerd fest, so if that's not your thing, maybe

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Speaker 1: skip to the second half where we get into some

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Speaker 1: super cool strategies and tools that Job users to motivate

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Speaker 1: and communicate to his company, who are of course us

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Speaker 1: all working remotely. My name is doctor Ramantha Imbat. I'm

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Speaker 1: an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium,

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Speaker 1: and this is how I work, a show about how

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Speaker 1: to help you do your best work. So something your

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Speaker 1: believes in very strongly is that remote working can give

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Speaker 1: you a far better life than being chained.

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Speaker 2: To a physical office.

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Speaker 1: So let's start by looking at how do you actually

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Speaker 1: get a better life through being remote.

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Speaker 3: Well, I guess you get a lot for free when

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Speaker 3: you start working remotely because you don't have to commute

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Speaker 3: it anymore. You win a lot of time in a

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Speaker 3: day by not having to commute and just having work

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Speaker 3: be really, really close.

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Speaker 4: The one thing you do have to.

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Speaker 3: Make sure of is that now that work is so close,

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Speaker 3: you create a clear separation between what is work and

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Speaker 3: what is the rest of life. I think the best

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Speaker 3: way to do this is to create a specific place

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Speaker 3: for you your house or wherever you do your work,

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Speaker 3: to do work and to not be there at times

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Speaker 3: that you're not working. And then from there just limit

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Speaker 3: the amount of time that you are actually working, like

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Speaker 3: create a schedule and stick to that.

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Speaker 2: What does your schedule look like? Out of interest?

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Speaker 3: So usually I start at around nine nine thirty am

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Speaker 3: in the morning, and I've blocked most of my day

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Speaker 3: until about seven pm, and I've blocked lunch as well,

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Speaker 3: and so that's usually the times that I work. I

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Speaker 3: have two small kids at home. We're in lockdown, so

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Speaker 3: sometimes I move things about, but that's basically what I.

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Speaker 2: Stick to now.

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Speaker 1: I know that you've thought a lot about your home

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Speaker 1: office setup, and I want to spend a bit of

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Speaker 1: time talking about the nitty gritty. I'm a little bit

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Speaker 1: obsessed with home office setup and I've thought so much

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Speaker 1: about my own. So one of the advantages of working

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Speaker 1: from home is that means that you can totally take

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Speaker 1: control of your workspace.

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Speaker 2: And I know that you've.

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Speaker 1: Written about what you're set up here is then I'll

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Speaker 1: certainly link to that in the show notes. But why

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Speaker 1: is thinking so much about your home office space and

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Speaker 1: the atmosphere so important?

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Speaker 3: I always think about these things as what is the

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Speaker 3: total cost for you to do something? Like? What is

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Speaker 3: the threshold for you to start doing work? The easier

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Speaker 3: it is to start doing work, the easier it is

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Speaker 3: to do your work.

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Speaker 4: The more you can focus on the work itself.

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Speaker 3: And so that's why I focus on I think for me,

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Speaker 3: I built my home offers around comfort first and efficiency

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Speaker 3: and reliability. I have zero patients for things that don't

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Speaker 3: work or don't work well, or are not fast and snappy.

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Speaker 3: I could never work with a slow computer, so that

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Speaker 3: is what I optimize around, and to me, that makes

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Speaker 3: a huge difference if I never feel frustrated and everything

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Speaker 3: just works.

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Speaker 1: I guess when we're thinking about working remotely and the

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Speaker 1: importance of having a good setup for all the communication

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Speaker 1: that happens virtually.

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Speaker 2: Why is that so important?

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Speaker 1: Because I know it on the majority of zoom calls

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Speaker 1: that I'm on camera angles, a terrible lightings bad people

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Speaker 1: just don't.

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Speaker 2: Think about it.

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Speaker 1: So why should listeners be thinking more about this setup.

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Speaker 3: I am on two mindst on this. On one end,

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Speaker 3: I think that the kind of setup that I have

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Speaker 3: is overkilled for almost everybody. I do it because I

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Speaker 3: like it, and I see it almost like a hobby,

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Speaker 3: and I'm happy to maintain it and I'm happy to

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Speaker 3: invest in it. But on the other end, when you

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Speaker 3: see someone face to face, the amount of information you

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Speaker 3: transmit and the presence that you feel when you are together,

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Speaker 3: that a lot of that is lost when you were

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Speaker 3: having a video chat with someone, and that's exacerbated by

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Speaker 3: having a poor connection or a poor camera angle, or

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Speaker 3: getting the feeling that someone is not looking at you.

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Speaker 3: It's such a simple fix to make sure that your

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Speaker 3: camera is right in front of you so that you

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Speaker 3: roughly look straight at a person when you're looking at

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Speaker 3: the screen. That's such a simple thing to do, but

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Speaker 3: it makes a huge difference. And so if you build

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Speaker 3: your office, if you build your webcam, your zoom setup

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Speaker 3: around the idea of I want people to feel close

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Speaker 3: to me and I feel like it's I am really here,

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Speaker 3: that can make a meaningful difference in how people perceive

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Speaker 3: you and how you perceive others if they have a

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Speaker 3: similar kind of setup. For one, I always feel very

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Speaker 3: frustrated when I'm calling with someone and the connection is choppy,

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Speaker 3: or even if just the video freezes, you can still

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Speaker 3: hear them talk.

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Speaker 4: Technically, we can still talk with.

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Speaker 3: Each other, but it's definitely not the same experience, and

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Speaker 3: so that nonverbal communication that's in that moment completely lost.

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Speaker 3: And I think the better your setup is around these

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Speaker 3: kind of things, in essence, the more data you can

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Speaker 3: transmit between each other.

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Speaker 1: So having the camera at eye level is very important.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell me what tech you use to produce

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Speaker 1: a really great quality image?

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Speaker 2: And again I'm going to link.

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Speaker 1: To your blog because you've got a picture of how

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Speaker 1: you look on screening video conferences and it looks very

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Speaker 1: very good. So can you talk me through what your

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Speaker 1: setup looks like for producing that great image.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think it looks much better today because

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Speaker 3: I made a lot of change. I've replaced most of

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Speaker 3: the things that you see in that picture. So I

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Speaker 3: have Sony A sixty four thousand recently upgraded because it

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Speaker 3: don one broke, which and I use that one as

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Speaker 3: webcam with a thirty five meter one point eight lens.

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Speaker 3: And the lens is really the trick, right, Like the

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Speaker 3: camera is just the thing that produces image, but having

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Speaker 3: a good lens with somewhat of a short depth of

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Speaker 3: field that helps you create this really nice blurry background

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Speaker 3: and so it focuses on you. So that one is

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Speaker 3: connected to a KEM link, which allows me to to

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Speaker 3: actually use it as a webcam. Then nowadays, what I have,

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Speaker 3: it's one of those key lights from El Gato. It's

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Speaker 3: one of those large lights that you connect to your

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Speaker 3: desk with a triple and you can connect it with

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Speaker 3: the stream deck the little buttons in front of me,

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Speaker 3: and so that makes sure that even if it's a

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Speaker 3: little bit dark in my office, I'm well lit and

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Speaker 3: it works extremely well.

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Speaker 4: I think that's it for how I look.

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Speaker 3: Part the rest of it is, you know, I make

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Speaker 3: sure that in my office, I just the light. So

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Speaker 3: I have spotlights in my office. There are all Phillips

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Speaker 3: you lights, so I can address them individually. And so

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Speaker 3: one of the things that I do is I turn

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Speaker 3: off the light directly above me because it casts dark

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Speaker 3: shadows on your eyes. It makes you look very tired,

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Speaker 3: so that when I turn off and the rest of

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Speaker 3: the ones in the room I dim. And then nowadays,

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Speaker 3: because in the picture that in a blog, my desk

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Speaker 3: is turned in one way, I now turn it to

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Speaker 3: the wall. So my background is you look further into

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Speaker 3: my office and you don't see very much because it's blurry,

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Speaker 3: but you see some little details and it gives a

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Speaker 3: nice effect.

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Speaker 1: And so you've got the Phillips huge lights. Do you

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Speaker 1: use any kind of automation with those lights? Given that

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Speaker 1: they're smart lights?

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Speaker 3: Most of the time I control them with my stream deck,

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Speaker 3: so I just manually adjust them, change them throughout the

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Speaker 3: day to match the daylight.

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Speaker 4: Color or how I feel.

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Speaker 3: So in the beginning of the day, I always turn

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Speaker 3: them really white to wake me up, especially because it's.

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Speaker 4: Still someone dark outside.

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Speaker 3: And then throughout the day, especially near the end of

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Speaker 3: the day, I started to turn them a more orange lights,

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Speaker 3: so you get a feeling of like, okay, now it's

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Speaker 3: see the end of the day. I don't do too

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Speaker 3: much automation around lights. What I found is that if

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Speaker 3: you do that, you spend a lot of time thinking

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Speaker 3: about an ideal scenario and then reality is always very

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Speaker 3: different from that. So in the past, for example, I

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Speaker 3: would always turn them on at a certain times turn

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Speaker 3: them off at certain times, and I found that the

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Speaker 3: reality never matches that either I end up turning them

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Speaker 3: off earlier or turning them on earlier. It's surprisingly hard

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Speaker 3: to have like a perfect automation.

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Speaker 4: But we have these lights all throughout the house.

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Speaker 3: And the one super useful thing I always find is

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Speaker 3: that if you have a few of those motion detection detectors,

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Speaker 3: so that if you walk into a house, it does

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Speaker 3: turn on the lights here and there.

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Speaker 1: I love the idea of the lights changing hu during

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Speaker 1: the day.

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Speaker 2: That's so cool.

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Speaker 1: Now you have mentioned the Elgado stream deck a couple

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Speaker 1: of times, and I must say, after I read your post,

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Speaker 1: I got one of those. I also found out that

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Speaker 1: my dad has one. So my dad is a computer

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Speaker 1: programmer and also does all the sound engineering for this

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Speaker 1: podcast and I'm in love with my stream deck, and

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Speaker 1: I'm imagining most listeners have no idea what we're talking about.

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Speaker 1: So can you talk about what this stream deck thing

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Speaker 1: is and how you use it.

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Speaker 4: Yes, it's a tiny keyboard.

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Speaker 3: On each key a little screen, and what you can

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Speaker 3: do is you can decide what you want each one

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Speaker 3: of those keys to do, and then you can actually

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Speaker 3: decide what it looks like. Because it's a little screen,

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Speaker 3: you can display a particular thing. And then the nice

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Speaker 3: thing is is it comes in a little dock, so

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Speaker 3: you can mount it at forty five degrees, so it

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Speaker 3: like sits in front of you and it looks at you.

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Speaker 3: And I have the stream Deck XL, which has thirty

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Speaker 3: two buttons, and so what I do with it is

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Speaker 3: I map those buttons to different actions.

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Speaker 4: It can be context aware.

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Speaker 3: So for example, if I have Zoom open, it shows

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Speaker 3: me all the typical controls of Zoom, like music, myself,

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Speaker 3: turing my camera on and off, etc. However, for most

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Speaker 3: of the day, the default screen that I have does

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Speaker 3: a few things. I have buttons to control the key

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Speaker 3: lights or the light that shines on my face.

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Speaker 4: I turn it off.

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Speaker 3: Whenever I'm not in a zoom call because it's very bright.

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Speaker 3: And then I have a whole bunch of buttons related

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Speaker 3: to things to control on my computer. I always have

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Speaker 3: media control, so the ability to turn off and on Spotify.

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Speaker 3: I have a single button that opens my calendar because

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Speaker 3: I have a lot of meetings, so I can express

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Speaker 3: that and it opens my calendar. I have several buttons

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Speaker 3: related to scanning and printing documents because in my work

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Speaker 3: I actually have to still print a lot of PHYSS

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Speaker 3: called documents, wet sign them and scanning scan them again.

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Speaker 3: So I just put them all in my scanner and

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Speaker 3: I press the button here and it runs through them.

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Speaker 3: And then I have a whole number of automations that

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Speaker 3: I've made with keyboard Maestro that do all sorts of

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Speaker 3: things in my computer. For example, one button re arranges

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Speaker 3: my screens so that in a way that I like them. So,

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Speaker 3: for example, I always want to have I have two

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Speaker 3: screen series, so I want to have Slack on my

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Speaker 3: left screen, I want to have my browser on the

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Speaker 3: main screen, I want to have Roam on.

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Speaker 4: My mainscreen on the right.

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Speaker 3: And if I press it one button, it just rearranges

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Speaker 3: them all at once. And I have another one for example,

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Speaker 3: that cleans my local download folder. Because I have to

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Speaker 3: download a lot of things and I don't want to

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Speaker 3: manually sort them out. So what I do is I

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Speaker 3: download things, I work through those documents, and whenever I'm done,

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Speaker 3: I just pressed it one button and it automatically rearranges

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Speaker 3: all the files in my computer and sends some of

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Speaker 3: them to the cloud and trushes some others.

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Speaker 1: I'm quite inspired hearing about all the different shorts that

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Speaker 1: you've got, because I don't have anywhere near as many

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Speaker 1: as that. I feel like it's one of those things

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Speaker 1: where you kind of become aware of all the repetitive

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Speaker 1: actions that you do during the day, but then just

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Speaker 1: investing five minutes to go okay, I could say so

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Speaker 1: much time just through taking the time to program that

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Speaker 1: on to stream deck that for some reason something sometimes

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Speaker 1: just stops me. So I'm definitely going to invest some

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Speaker 1: time tomorrow. I'm quite inspired. Now you mentioned Keyboard Maestro.

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Speaker 1: What is Keyboard Maestro.

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Speaker 3: It's the ultimate automation suite for Mac. So you previously

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Speaker 3: and you still have Automator for example, this is a

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Speaker 3: little bit hard to use, and so keep it. My

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Speaker 3: stow is made by one individual I believe, and it's

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Speaker 3: a not very good looking tool that allows you to

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Speaker 3: essentially automate anything that happens on your Mac give it

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Speaker 3: the permisions to do so. So the way it works

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Speaker 3: is you set some sort of trigger. So that trigger

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Speaker 3: could be a manual action you clicking somewhere, you click

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Speaker 3: on a button, or pressing a particular key, or in

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Speaker 3: this case, for example, me pressing on a key on

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Speaker 3: the stream deck, but it could also be a change

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Speaker 3: in your computer an event for example, I add a

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Speaker 3: new file to a particular folder. So you set that trigger,

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Speaker 3: and then what you can do is then based on

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Speaker 3: the trigger, you can do all sorts of actions, and

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Speaker 3: those actions the standard actions that are available in Keyboard Maestro.

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Speaker 3: As first, they seem somewhat limited, but you quickly discover

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Speaker 3: that they're actually very powerful because you can essentially do

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Speaker 3: anything you could do with your hands without automations. For example,

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Speaker 3: if I want to find a particular place in the

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Speaker 3: screen to click on, I could say, well, I want

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Speaker 3: to click at a particular coordinate. But you can also

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Speaker 3: do is you can have Keyboard mysto search for an

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Speaker 3: image on your whole screen and then click on that image.

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Speaker 3: So that you don't have to rely on your screen

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Speaker 3: speining a particular place. It's incredibly powerful and you can

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Speaker 3: virtually automate anything with it. And to give you an example,

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Speaker 3: the latest thing I automated, well, I get a lot

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Speaker 3: of images through WhatsApp, and I want to save those images.

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Speaker 3: But there's not a real easy way to do this,

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Speaker 3: especially not if you have a lot a lot of

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Speaker 3: them hundreds. And so what I did is I created

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Speaker 3: the keyboard maestrow automation that essentially opened WhatsApp, selected the

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Speaker 3: contact from which I want to download the images, and

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Speaker 3: then one by one go through each image, click on download,

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Speaker 3: saves it to the right location, waits until that's done,

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Speaker 3: and then goes to the next image, and it just

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Speaker 3: does that for however long I wanted. And so once

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Speaker 3: I set up that the automation I tested to with

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Speaker 3: like three images, I turned it on, I did like

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Speaker 3: three hundreds, and then a minute later I couldn't touch

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Speaker 3: my computer in this time, though, but a minute later

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Speaker 3: it had downloaded all those things. And it would have

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Speaker 3: been very tedious to do by hand, but it was

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Speaker 3: actually very easy to automate. It took me maybe five

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Speaker 3: minutes or something.

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Speaker 1: Do I need to be able to write code to

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Speaker 1: automate within keyboard my story or is it for non

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Speaker 1: coders like me?

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Speaker 4: No, not at all. That's the beauty of it.

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Speaker 3: I think it's good to have an understanding of loops,

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Speaker 3: so understanding what does how does loop work?

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Speaker 4: And such?

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Speaker 3: So having some sort of like a mind that likes

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Speaker 3: the program things certainly helps and it will make you easier.

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Speaker 3: I also think it's worth while just exploring online, like

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Speaker 3: sometimes it's worth to just look at examples online. If

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Speaker 3: you do want to code, you can actually coach. You

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Speaker 3: can write JavaScript, or you can write automator in there,

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Speaker 3: and if you want to do very specific things or

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Speaker 3: things that are on a command line, then you will

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Speaker 3: need to do that. But actually, I think none of

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Speaker 3: the automations I am using today uses any kind of code,

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Speaker 3: So no, it's it's really nice.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: Just before we started recording, I said, you sound so good,

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Speaker 1: and I would expect nothing less. Can you talk me

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Speaker 1: through what your setup is for sounding so great and clear?

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Speaker 3: I spend a lot of time thinking about this, and

333
00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:53,880
Speaker 3: one of the things I learned very quickly was that

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Speaker 3: if you want to control the acoustic properties of your space.

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Speaker 3: You have to invest in immense amount of time and

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00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,560
Speaker 3: effort and money to be able to do that, and

337
00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,760
Speaker 3: I essentially decided to not do that, and rather than

338
00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:12,000
Speaker 3: having spending time on acoustic insallation and echoic things, I decided,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to build a setup that works around like

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Speaker 3: one really good microphone that is someone close to my

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Speaker 3: mouth and then I don't have to worry about the echo.

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Speaker 3: And so that's exactly what it is I now have.

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Speaker 3: I think it's called an Electro Voice r E twenty microphone,

344
00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,240
Speaker 3: which I can obviously not expect anyone to buy the

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00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:35,320
Speaker 3: same one. It's very expensive, but it's a very popular microphone,

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Speaker 3: especially in the recording industry. It's really really good because

347
00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:40,400
Speaker 3: you don't have to be too close to it. You

348
00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:41,960
Speaker 3: have to be someone close to it, and you basically

349
00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,240
Speaker 3: the ultimate sound quality and that is connected to a

350
00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,840
Speaker 3: microphone arm and a microphone arm. I don't remember the brand,

351
00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:50,880
Speaker 3: but it's a nice one because it has the xcel

352
00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,160
Speaker 3: R cable insight so you don't have to lose cable

353
00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:57,760
Speaker 3: wiggling about. Honestly, that's all the money that I spent

354
00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:02,880
Speaker 3: on that that's worth it, and that into the perfect

355
00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:08,919
Speaker 3: USB microphone interface. It's a USB pre too from sound devices,

356
00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:13,760
Speaker 3: which again is OVERKO for ninety five to ninety nine

357
00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,360
Speaker 3: percent of all people. The nice thing about this one

358
00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:21,119
Speaker 3: is is that it's essentially indestructible and mega reliable and

359
00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,280
Speaker 3: doesn't require any drivers. So this whole setup is, I

360
00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:26,560
Speaker 3: have a really good microphone. It goes into a box,

361
00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:28,520
Speaker 3: and a box doesn't need any drivers. I just plug

362
00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:30,520
Speaker 3: it into my computer. It would work on any computer.

363
00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,359
Speaker 3: The device is like fifteen years old. They haven't changed

364
00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,480
Speaker 3: it in many years. They haven't released any driver updates

365
00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:41,000
Speaker 3: to it. It's just super solid. So I'm really really

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00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,280
Speaker 3: happy with the audio setup I have today.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that you used to use a slightly

368
00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:48,479
Speaker 1: more affordable microphone, am I right inside that you used

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Speaker 1: to use an Audio Technica I TI twenty one.

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Speaker 4: Hundred, Yeah, the twenty one hundred USB. And it's still

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Speaker 4: really good.

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Speaker 3: Like if I for some reason I have to record

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Speaker 3: multiple audio streams at home, which is like one in

374
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Speaker 3: the Blue Moon, then I have two of them. I

375
00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,160
Speaker 3: bought it for fifty dollars when I was visiting New York.

376
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:07,960
Speaker 3: Once it was hard to shipt Europe. But yeah, and

377
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,800
Speaker 3: it's incredible. I think the difference between the mic that

378
00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:12,800
Speaker 3: I'm using now and that one is that that one

379
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:15,000
Speaker 3: really has to be close to your mouth. You really

380
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,920
Speaker 3: need a pop filter on it, and the dynamic ra

381
00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,360
Speaker 3: INNG is a little bit less, but it is almost

382
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:20,920
Speaker 3: as good.

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Speaker 4: Now.

384
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Speaker 1: I know that you're not a fan of bluetooth headphones.

385
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Speaker 1: Could you talk me through what you do use and why?

386
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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I also recently upgraded all of that, so

387
00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:36,199
Speaker 3: I'm not like I. Fundamentally I use Bluetooth headphones all

388
00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:38,359
Speaker 3: the time. I use airports all the time. I have

389
00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:42,080
Speaker 3: a set of Airports Max and all more order. But

390
00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:44,560
Speaker 3: for my own setup, it's not reliable enough. I have

391
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,520
Speaker 3: days where I have seven hours of meetings sometimes and

392
00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:50,639
Speaker 3: none of them do a good job. And like, I

393
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,520
Speaker 3: don't want a hassle with losing connection to it, so

394
00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:58,000
Speaker 3: I always use wired headphones without any exception. So today

395
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:02,960
Speaker 3: I use by Bayer Dynamic nineteen ninety pro, which is

396
00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:07,240
Speaker 3: open back headphones, which is my preferred type of headphones

397
00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:09,760
Speaker 3: because then I can still hear myself when I'm talking

398
00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:12,320
Speaker 3: like I am now, and also I find the sound

399
00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,840
Speaker 3: quality much better. People have concerns that the sound leaks

400
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,600
Speaker 3: too much through them, but I find that that's not

401
00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:22,200
Speaker 3: really the case, and those are connected to a sheet

402
00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:26,439
Speaker 3: audio deck and amp which is on my desk, and

403
00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:27,680
Speaker 3: that's then connected to my Mac.

404
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,320
Speaker 1: I want to geek out for just a little bit longer,

405
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Speaker 1: so please indulge me, or rather I should say listeners,

406
00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,280
Speaker 1: please indulge me in this, because I could just talk

407
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Speaker 1: for hours about gear. Now, keyboards keyboards are not created equal.

408
00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,560
Speaker 1: Talk me through your view on your preference for keyboards.

409
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,399
Speaker 3: A long time ago I got into mechanical keyboards, like

410
00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:49,399
Speaker 3: I think many people in the tech industry start to

411
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:54,399
Speaker 3: discover them at once, and I used all sorts and

412
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:55,360
Speaker 3: then I.

413
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Speaker 4: Saw someone use a split keyboard.

414
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Speaker 3: So split keyboard being a keyboard, it existently exists of

415
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,000
Speaker 3: two separate part one for your left hand, one for

416
00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:05,520
Speaker 3: your right hand. And actually, I don't know if you

417
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:10,080
Speaker 3: heard that, that was me moving it. And so I've

418
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:12,920
Speaker 3: used an Ergo dogs Easy for a very long time,

419
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,560
Speaker 3: and today what I use is a Moonlener, which is

420
00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,800
Speaker 3: their new split keyboard, and it's a split keyboards and

421
00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,119
Speaker 3: it's also Ergo linear, so that means that the keys

422
00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,280
Speaker 3: are in neat rows and columns, so rather than like

423
00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:28,159
Speaker 3: being offset. Like a normal quirty keyboard, they are in

424
00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,480
Speaker 3: very straight column. So essentially, if you want to move

425
00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,080
Speaker 3: from the J to the you, for example, on your

426
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,199
Speaker 3: right hand, you go straight up instead of going slightly

427
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Speaker 3: to the left or to the right. And so this keyboard,

428
00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:44,000
Speaker 3: for one, it's my favorite keyboard of all time. It's

429
00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:49,080
Speaker 3: truly incredible when you drop your arms next to you

430
00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:51,800
Speaker 3: and you just stick out your hands straight forward that

431
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,480
Speaker 3: is where each half of the keyboard is, rather than

432
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,520
Speaker 3: moving them to the center in front of you, and

433
00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:58,879
Speaker 3: so actually in the center in front of me, I

434
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,159
Speaker 3: usually have my coffee and I touch type. And the

435
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,600
Speaker 3: nice thing about the keyword is is you can program it,

436
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:06,760
Speaker 3: and you can program it in a sense that you

437
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:08,560
Speaker 3: can add multiple layers to it.

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Speaker 4: That means that.

439
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:11,879
Speaker 3: If I just type normally, if I keep my hands

440
00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:13,840
Speaker 3: on the home row so with my left, the next

441
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:15,399
Speaker 3: thing on the F, and am I right on the J,

442
00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,320
Speaker 3: it's just a normal quality keyboard. I don't use any

443
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Speaker 3: specific other arrangement. But then if I, for example, press

444
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,639
Speaker 3: on the key next to the A, which traditionally you

445
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,520
Speaker 3: have the cap slope for me, it activates a level

446
00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,520
Speaker 3: switch and now every key on the keyboard is mapped

447
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:34,800
Speaker 3: to something different, and because it's programmable, I can choose

448
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,000
Speaker 3: what it is. So in my case, it means that

449
00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:38,800
Speaker 3: if I press on that key so that it is

450
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,440
Speaker 3: to the left of the A on my right hand

451
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:45,280
Speaker 3: under my index and middle finger, I have parentheses and

452
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:49,159
Speaker 3: square brackets and curly brackets, so things I use very

453
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:51,960
Speaker 3: very frequently, and so they are very easy to reach.

454
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:53,720
Speaker 3: So I don't have to press shift and then reach

455
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:55,600
Speaker 3: up with my hands now. Rather they are under the

456
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:59,280
Speaker 3: home row and I can really quickly type particular things.

457
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:01,399
Speaker 3: I have not layer switch on the other side of

458
00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:04,800
Speaker 3: the left hand where each key is mapped to.

459
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:06,360
Speaker 4: I don't even know what.

460
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:08,560
Speaker 3: Kind of key combination, but it essentially allows me to

461
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,720
Speaker 3: move windows around. So if I press my index finger

462
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:13,879
Speaker 3: on one and then I usually use my ring finger

463
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 3: on another key, I know that it can really quickly

464
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:18,919
Speaker 3: move a window to the left, or the screen to

465
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:20,480
Speaker 3: the right, or screen besides, et cetera.

466
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:24,439
Speaker 1: Now, but I've got a normal, just a Mac keyboard

467
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,840
Speaker 1: that's sort of Bluetooth connected. If like thinking about the

468
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,680
Speaker 1: keyboard setup that you have, I imagine most people don't

469
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,360
Speaker 1: have that setup. How difficult or challenging would it be

470
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:40,080
Speaker 1: for people with a normal keyboard to move to what

471
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,040
Speaker 1: you're using where it's essentially split in half.

472
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 3: I have a lot of friends that start using this

473
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 3: and actually yesterday or a friend of mine body exact

474
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 3: same one.

475
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 4: And I here two things.

476
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:51,960
Speaker 3: One is it took me about a week or two

477
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,359
Speaker 3: weeks to get as fast as a normal keyboard, and

478
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:55,440
Speaker 3: I love it and I don't want.

479
00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:55,800
Speaker 4: To go back.

480
00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 3: And I've had several friends that were like, this is

481
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,399
Speaker 3: not for me, and I'm turning it or stop.

482
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 4: Using it, and so I personally spent I think.

483
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,440
Speaker 3: It was one week that it was like a bit

484
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 3: of work and I missed a few keys and I

485
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,120
Speaker 3: had to remap them. I kept hitting the wrong key

486
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,760
Speaker 3: for the bee. But more and more I see, especially

487
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,880
Speaker 3: people in my company, for example, using this kind of keyboard.

488
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,159
Speaker 3: It is much more organomic and had the advantages of

489
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,360
Speaker 3: having a program or keyboard are hard to understate.

490
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 4: It's really really quite powerful.

491
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 1: And how about your mouse or I should say misce

492
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:33,439
Speaker 1: I believe what's your set up there?

493
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 3: So I used to mice on the right. So I

494
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:38,680
Speaker 3: used to be a die hard track pad user for.

495
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:39,200
Speaker 4: A long time.

496
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 3: I started getting pain in my hand, and the moment

497
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,760
Speaker 3: that happened, I immediately decided to no longer use a

498
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,359
Speaker 3: track pad as my primary mouse. So I'm right handed,

499
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 3: so on my right hand I have a Logitech MX

500
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 3: Master three, which is a really great mouse, and on

501
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:56,640
Speaker 3: my left hand I still use the Magic track Pad

502
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:58,640
Speaker 3: two from Apple. I have the black one that came

503
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 3: with the Macro. And the reason I use both is

504
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,639
Speaker 3: that a normal mouse is good for almost all normal

505
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 3: day to day computer use, and this one, in particular

506
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 3: is really nice because it has like this horizontal scroll wheel.

507
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,679
Speaker 3: It has a few extra buttons, which I don't use,

508
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:15,680
Speaker 3: by the way, but it has them if I were

509
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 3: to use them. And then on the left side I

510
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 3: have the trackpad for gestures. You know, there's a lot

511
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,399
Speaker 3: of really nice gests, like a three or four fingers

512
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,920
Speaker 3: swipe up to have xpos A open. But in particular,

513
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:32,159
Speaker 3: we use fig masks designed to add remote and moving

514
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,640
Speaker 3: around like a virtual environment like a two D space

515
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,719
Speaker 3: is infinitely more easy with the trackpad because you can

516
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,680
Speaker 3: just put two fingers on it and you can move

517
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 3: in X and the Y dimension, and you can pinch

518
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 3: to zoom in and out, and that is something that

519
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,439
Speaker 3: with a mouse and regular mouse is significantly harder. And

520
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 3: so what I do is like, on my left hand,

521
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 3: I navigate around. On my right hand, I click on

522
00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,439
Speaker 3: things and resize things, and it works so well. I

523
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 3: tried to convince more people of using the same setup.

524
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,399
Speaker 1: I like that a lot because I use a normal

525
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,360
Speaker 1: mouse and I've actually put my track pad away in

526
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 1: the draw. But since learning about your setup, I'm like, oh,

527
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 1: maybe I need to become ambidexterous in my mouse setup.

528
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:21,439
Speaker 1: Now I imagine that there are you know, a lot

529
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 1: of listeners going wow, that sounds like an amazing setup,

530
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 1: but it's going to be overkill for me, or I

531
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,400
Speaker 1: don't have that budget or my organization would not fund

532
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 1: all that amazing gear. What would your top two or

533
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,679
Speaker 1: three tips be for listeners that are on a budget

534
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 1: to get the biggest bang for their back in terms

535
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 1: of improving their home office setup and how they're communicating

536
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 1: visually an auditory with the rest of the world.

537
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 3: If you ask me specifically, like the whole home office

538
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:53,439
Speaker 3: may advice is always one. Get a good chair. Spend

539
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 3: all your money on that. It can get your back

540
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 3: back right. This is the one thing where you should

541
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 3: really optimize for an external monitor. If you are set

542
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 3: with those basics, I think the next step it's nice

543
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 3: to have mechanical keyboard. They are not expensive. You can

544
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 3: get like a great mechanical keyboard for the equivalent of

545
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 3: fifty dollars or so nowadays on Amazon. And then it's

546
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 3: what I said, like, try to optimize the little thing

547
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 3: so you can get an inexpensive webcam and put it

548
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 3: on your screen in front of you if you have

549
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 3: an external screen, so that you look straight at the webcam.

550
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 3: Make sure you have some sort of headphones whenever you're

551
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 3: in a zoom call, so that there's no chance that

552
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,919
Speaker 3: you have that echo effect where which zoom actually cancels

553
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 3: out really really well. But not all video clients do

554
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,400
Speaker 3: very well. It's very easy thing just put on headphones.

555
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 3: If you already have some lying around, that works fine.

556
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 3: And then if you still have some budget left, you

557
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 3: can always look into getting an external microphone. It tends

558
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 3: to make quite a big difference, especially if you just

559
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:53,119
Speaker 3: get one and put it somewhat close to you. The

560
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 3: closer to your mouth, the better it will sound. That's

561
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:58,640
Speaker 3: like then the price of the microphone doesn't really matter.

562
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 3: If you put it really close to your mouth, and

563
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 3: again you can get like a great one for fifty

564
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 3: to one hundred dollars, which definitely is an investment, but

565
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 3: it is also worth it if you spend a lot

566
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,239
Speaker 3: of time in video calls. And then the one thing

567
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 3: I always say is like, get a wired Internet to

568
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,919
Speaker 3: your desk, like remove the latency of Wi Fi and

569
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 3: the chance that your Wi Fi goes down or you

570
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 3: have problems with it all together by just putting a

571
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,159
Speaker 3: wired directly to your computer. You probably need a dong

572
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 3: all if you use a MacBook, but.

573
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:28,400
Speaker 4: It's so worth it.

574
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 3: It will cost you, I don't know, twenty dollars to

575
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 3: do so at most, and you will forever get rid

576
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 3: of all your latency problems with zoom calls.

577
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: And what sort of chair do you have? Given that

578
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: that is the most important item.

579
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 3: Chairs are really personal choice. Years many years ago, I

580
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 3: sat on a Herman Miller Errands chair and I thought

581
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 3: to myself, I've never said this comfortably, So that's what

582
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 3: I'm sitting on an error chair.

583
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 1: Yeare moving away from tech talk. I know that you

584
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:04,679
Speaker 1: used to be at git Lab and I actually had

585
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: Darren Murph on the show a few months ago, and

586
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 1: I got to say that was one of my favorite

587
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 1: interviews of last year and just learning about how things

588
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,360
Speaker 1: are done at git lab, and I know that asynchronous

589
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 1: work is the default at git lab. For those that

590
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 1: haven't come across the term asynchronous, can you just briefly

591
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 1: define what that means, because I know that at remote

592
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: dot Com, I assume that your default to asynchronous communication

593
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: there as well.

594
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 4: Yes, we do.

595
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 3: Asynchronous work essentially means that work can continue in the

596
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 3: absence of being together in the same place at the

597
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 3: same time, So you work in a way that doesn't

598
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 3: require you to have a meeting with someone, that doesn't

599
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 3: require you to be working on something at the same time,

600
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 3: and things can still continue. That is fundamentally what you

601
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 3: try to achieve with asynchronous work. When you think about specifics,

602
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 3: it means that you'll write down rather than things being

603
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 3: in the air. Right in a normal office, when you

604
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 3: work together, it's often the case, like what is the

605
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 3: status of a project? You can shout it in the

606
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 3: air and then the person in the other desk might say,

607
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 3: this is what it is. In asynchronous work, this is

608
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 3: not acceptable because that means that it relies on you

609
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 3: both being working at the same time at the same

610
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 3: place and communicating with each other and asynchronous work essentially

611
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 3: states that, well, if there is a status to be had,

612
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 3: it's accessible to everybody, and you don't need to bother

613
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 3: someone else to be able to get that status. If

614
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 3: you want to read what decision was made and why

615
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 3: it was made, that is accessible, you don't have to

616
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 3: ask it to someone. And all of this to eventually

617
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 3: allow you to build the team that is distributed and

618
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 3: it can work whenever they want and continue with their

619
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 3: work at whatever time they want without needing to sync

620
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 3: with other people.

621
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 1: Now, I am curious as to what the differences are

622
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: in the way you've chosen to work and build the

623
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: culture at remote dot com. But before we go there,

624
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: for listeners that haven't heard of remote dot com, which

625
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 1: I imagine is quite a few listeners, can you talk

626
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: about what your company does and why you created it.

627
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, of course.

628
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 3: So if you are an employer and you want to

629
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 3: employ someone in a different country, that's actually pretty hard

630
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 3: to do. You need to have a local office, you

631
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 3: need to have a local entity. Then you need to

632
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 3: hire someone locally meet the local laws in terms of

633
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 3: labor laws, and employment laws, and then you need to

634
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 3: run local payroll and pay them out locally in their

635
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 3: local currency.

636
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 4: That's a lot of work.

637
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 3: If you choose to not do those things, you are

638
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 3: a non compliant. Like you can't just hire someone in

639
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 3: another country and say you are now an employee of

640
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 3: my company, which is an American company, even though you're

641
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 3: in Portugal.

642
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 4: That's not possible.

643
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 3: And we face this problem at get lab many many times,

644
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 3: and we never found a great solution to it, and

645
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 3: so Remote specifically solves this problem. So what we are

646
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 3: we are a global employer of record and we take

647
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 3: care of exactly this problem. So we take care of

648
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 3: payroll and benefits and compliance for international teams. And we

649
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 3: do that by, among other things, employing people locally for

650
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 3: other employers. So if you have a company in the

651
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 3: United States you want to employ someone in Portugal, you

652
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 3: can do so through us. We take care of all

653
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 3: the bureaucratic stuff and we just send you an invoice

654
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 3: every month and you treat that employee like any other employee.

655
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 3: So that's what Remotes does.

656
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 2: What a brilliant problem to solve.

657
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 1: And I want to know, given you spend a lot

658
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 1: of time at GitLab involved in their culture, and I'd

659
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 1: say for those that are not familiar with that culture,

660
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: I will link to my interview with Darren Murph in

661
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: the show notes because that goes into a lot of

662
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 1: the choices that GitLab have made in terms of creating

663
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 1: the culture that they have there around Remote Works. So

664
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 1: what are some of the things that you've chosen to

665
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 1: do differently in terms of being a remote first company.

666
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:00,959
Speaker 3: I think there's a few fundamental thing we started to

667
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:02,959
Speaker 3: do that I'm not sure we get LEB does, but

668
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 3: one notable example is what we start to see is

669
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 3: that having a single moment with the whole company together

670
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 3: is of course very hard to achieve. And when you

671
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 3: have people all over the world and you want to

672
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 3: have both ability to bond with your colleagues independent of

673
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 3: where they are, and you want to also especially if

674
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 3: you're a leader in the company or if you have

675
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 3: some news to share, to be able to do that.

676
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 3: And so what we started to do is we started

677
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 3: to explicitly separate those things. So now what we have

678
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 3: at the Remote is we have six bonding calls a week.

679
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 3: So these are calls and their only purpose is to

680
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 3: spend time bonding chatting with each other, maybe doing you know,

681
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 3: those icebreaker questions, or just having fun together. So it's

682
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 3: six calls, but on three different days, and then one

683
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 3: for me it's in the morning, and one for me

684
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 3: it's in the late afternoon, so that essentially the whole

685
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 3: planet can at least attend one of them, and then

686
00:32:57,520 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 3: we still have an all hands meeting where we try

687
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 3: to all get together, which is a shifting time. But

688
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 3: what we figured out was that this all hands for one,

689
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 3: we don't like to schedule long and many recurring meetings,

690
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 3: so it's only thirty minutes. So rather than using that

691
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 3: time for updates, what we started to do is require

692
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 3: every team to record their updates in a LOOM video.

693
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 3: So what people do is they we have a page

694
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 3: on Notion where everybody posts their updates and it can

695
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 3: be either written in a little Notion page or it

696
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 3: can be loom or sometimes a combination of both, and

697
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,239
Speaker 3: people tend to stick to at most five minutes, so

698
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 3: these are really short updates and it gives you a

699
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 3: really nice ability to quickly see what is happening across

700
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,239
Speaker 3: the organization, and of course we categorize those so if

701
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 3: you want to see like what is the latest in

702
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 3: sales at Remote? Even on your first day, you can

703
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 3: just go to that list and you can see, oh,

704
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 3: there was an update two days ago. You can watch

705
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 3: it and you're fully up to date. And I'm quite

706
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 3: proud of this because this solved so many problems, and

707
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 3: it took a while to encourage everybody to start recording this,

708
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 3: but now that people are doing it, it's an incredible

709
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 3: source of information because it moves away from the requirement

710
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 3: of having to really search the deep through documentation just

711
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 3: to get a glance of like what is the current

712
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 3: status of things. You can just watch a video or

713
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 3: even just read the transcript, and it still gives you

714
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 3: somewhat personal thing because you can put a face to

715
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 3: another department or a face to a particular task, and

716
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 3: so you actually get to see all the people that

717
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:28,839
Speaker 3: you know. Remote we spend a lot of time on

718
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 3: international expansion. You can actually see the people that are

719
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 3: working on this, and I find it very very cool for.

720
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 1: Listeners that haven't come across Loom or Notion, Can you

721
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 1: briefly explain what those two pieces of software do, how

722
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 1: they work.

723
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,280
Speaker 3: Of course, Loom is just a way to record videos.

724
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 3: You can record a video of your screen, you can

725
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 3: record a video of yourself, or a combination of the

726
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 3: two where you see a winnow in your computer and

727
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 3: a little image of you talking. Incredibly easy way to

728
00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 3: quickly record and share videos. And I am personally using

729
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,240
Speaker 3: it all the time, and it just released a feature

730
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 3: to have transcripts, which is quite good. So, for example,

731
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,720
Speaker 3: yesterday I had a new colleague starting and I recorded

732
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 3: a few LOOM videos for him because I want to

733
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 3: share all this information with you, but we don't need

734
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 3: to necessarily set up.

735
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 4: An hour long meeting. I can just record a bunch

736
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:18,240
Speaker 4: of videos.

737
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 3: And then what he did is he actually just read

738
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 3: the transcripts and he says I prefer to read, and

739
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,799
Speaker 3: the transcript was really good, and then that worked well

740
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:26,359
Speaker 3: enough for him.

741
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:27,320
Speaker 4: So that's LOOM.

742
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 3: It's a really really great tool, highly recommended, especially for

743
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 3: any kind of remote company. And a notion is a

744
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 3: really popular tool. It's a tool in which you can write,

745
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 3: so you can document things, you can have databases. Essentially,

746
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 3: it's a way to collect, organize, and read a lot

747
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 3: of information. It's really powerful, it's really expressive. It makes

748
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:52,919
Speaker 3: it very easy to write, it makes it very easy

749
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 3: to add particular kind of content and it's really great

750
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 3: as a single source of truth. So getleb, for example,

751
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 3: has its handbook. We have a handbook as well with

752
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 3: ours is in Ocean, and actually part of it is

753
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 3: public online at handbook dot remote.

754
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 1: Dot com handbook dot remote dot com. I'll link to

755
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,239
Speaker 1: that in the show notes and tell me what are

756
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 1: some of the other things that you do? And by

757
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,760
Speaker 1: the way, I'm loving the sound of six bonding meetings perbect,

758
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 1: but what else do you do at remote dot com?

759
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 3: We wanted to do more because just putting to get

760
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 3: people together in a call it definitely works, but it

761
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 3: also makes it a very easily skippable event. So we

762
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 3: wanted to do things where we engage people. And so

763
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 3: what we started to do is we started to organize

764
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 3: things to play games together, so at least every Thursday.

765
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 3: But what I'm starting to see more often people organize

766
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,759
Speaker 3: themselves are there are specific moments in the calendar to

767
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 3: play games together, and those games can be all sorts

768
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 3: of things. People play pictionary together, they play video games.

769
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 3: We have a Minecraft server, for example. There are people

770
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 3: playing all sorts of online games. There's dungeons and Dragons

771
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 3: group nowadays, and then a while ago I bought the

772
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 3: Ocalist Quests too, this VR headset from Facebook, and I

773
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 3: found the experience just so incredibly good compared to anything

774
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 3: what was before, and so we figured we're going to

775
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,280
Speaker 3: set up an initiative we call it Remote Labs, to

776
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 3: try out new ways of communicating with each other, and

777
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 3: this was one of the things that we tried out.

778
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,760
Speaker 3: So everybody at Remote gets one of these Ocallest Quests

779
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 3: VR headsets and actually hang out in VR. Sometimes it's

780
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 3: just a really nice experience because again it helps you

781
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 3: feel more present and feel closer to people, right rather

782
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 3: than just seeing someone on the screen, there's a physical

783
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 3: element to it where you feel the actual presence in

784
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:42,239
Speaker 3: three D space of someone else. Now today, I think

785
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,879
Speaker 3: we did that a few times, and people everybody Jones

786
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 3: Remote will continue to get one. The reality is though,

787
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 3: that most people are now playing Beat Saber, which is

788
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 3: a really nice music game in VR, and there's a

789
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 3: very intense competition going on where every time someone breaks

790
00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:59,360
Speaker 3: your record, you get a notification on your phone and

791
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 3: I get several day of that, so it's pretty fun.

792
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,799
Speaker 1: What do you think the future holds in terms of

793
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 1: remote working, a more company is going to be doing

794
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,319
Speaker 1: this or is it just a phase thanks to this

795
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 1: global pandemic?

796
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 2: What do you reckon?

797
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,399
Speaker 3: I think there's two very strong forces that will make

798
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 3: sure that remote working will only continue to grow. The

799
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 3: first one being is the need for talent. It's simply

800
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 3: there's simply not enough talent in the neighborhood around the

801
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 3: office to ignore remote work, right. You know that Now,

802
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,800
Speaker 3: if you're an employer you want to hire the best person,

803
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,720
Speaker 3: you can just find them by saying, well, it doesn't

804
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 3: matter where you live or where you want to live,

805
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:45,319
Speaker 3: we will hire you.

806
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 4: And so that's the first one.

807
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 3: It's like the hard need for talent and the need

808
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 3: to just look outside of the direct vicinity of anybody

809
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 3: particular offers. And the other one is because of the

810
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 3: pandemic and many of us were forced to work from home,

811
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,800
Speaker 3: the secret is out that you can actually do most

812
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:07,320
Speaker 3: jobs from home or do them remotely. And so independent

813
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,400
Speaker 3: of what an employer might decide to do post pandemic,

814
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 3: they might say, well, everybody has to go to the office.

815
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 3: Each individual knows that remote working is a thing that

816
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 3: is possible, and it is a thing that you can

817
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 3: do so even if your current employee forces you to

818
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,399
Speaker 3: go back to the office. You know that well, if

819
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 3: you like this, or if you see the potential of hey,

820
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 3: if I work remotely, I can move somewhere else or

821
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 3: I can travel well working, then you are going to

822
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 3: think to yourself, well, maybe I'll look for a different job.

823
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 3: And there will be plenty of jobs because again, the

824
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 3: need for talent will make it so that employers will

825
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 3: try to do what is what people actually want, and

826
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 3: many people want to work remotely. So yeah, I'm absolutely

827
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 3: sure that this is not only a trend that will stay.

828
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 3: I think it will only grow, and I think it's

829
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 3: almost any knowledge worker over time will work partially or

830
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 3: fully remotely.

831
00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 1: It's interesting what I'm saying happening in Australia is that

832
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 1: but a lot of organizations are encouraging their staff to

833
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 1: come back to the office, which is actually the opposite

834
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,439
Speaker 1: of what we've done at Inventing. In my consultancy, we

835
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 1: have gotten rid of our Melbourne and Sydney leases and

836
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 1: we are now officially a remote first company. But you know,

837
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 1: is there a difference between being a remote first versus

838
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 1: just a remote friendly company where people can work from home,

839
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 1: but they're kind of encouraged to come into the office

840
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:26,879
Speaker 1: at least a couple of days a week.

841
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 4: Yeah. Absolutely.

842
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 3: I think it starts by the fact that in one

843
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 3: of these two scenarios, if you're remote friendly and you

844
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 3: still encourage people to go to the office, you take

845
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,840
Speaker 3: away the freedom of living anywhere, right. I think that's

846
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 3: I think there's a large component. I always think that

847
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:46,240
Speaker 3: remote work fundamentally and remote first companies give you more freedom.

848
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:50,320
Speaker 3: And so if you are going to restricted freedom by saying, well,

849
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 3: you have to be in a particular location, that immediately

850
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 3: implies that you also have to work in particular hours,

851
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 3: because most people work during the day, like I do,

852
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 3: between nine and five, nine and seven or so. So

853
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 3: you immediately restrict that, and you immediately limit that. And

854
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 3: then if you also require them to actually come into

855
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:08,720
Speaker 3: the office, it means that they can't actually move anywhere.

856
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 3: So I don't think it's remote friendly if you call

857
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 3: it like that. I think it's about encouraging or requiring

858
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 3: people to be closed to the office that is the

859
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,719
Speaker 3: real problem here. And then if you don't allow people

860
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 3: to actually far away and fully work remotely, you're not

861
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 3: remote friendly. You just want a business that sometimes people

862
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,880
Speaker 3: can work from home. And lastly, of course what happens

863
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:33,719
Speaker 3: is that your company culture will not be asynchronous, it

864
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 3: will not fully embrace remote work, because people are going

865
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 3: to rely on their moments to being together in the office.

866
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 3: It's a natural tendency that we have because communicating in

867
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 3: person is much easier than communicating through a computer, and

868
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 3: so it requires much less work for you to just

869
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 3: talk to me rather than writing something. It requires much

870
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:54,359
Speaker 3: less work to just walk over into the office rather

871
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 3: than setting up a meeting when I'm remotely. And so

872
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 3: if part of the company or all of the company

873
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 3: regularly meets in in the office, they are going to

874
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 3: lean into the time that they're in the office and

875
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 3: using that to communicate and using that for meetings and

876
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 3: will it will essentially means that if you work remotely,

877
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:15,439
Speaker 3: work isolated, and it's a bad idea to work like that. Okay,

878
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 3: I think you either have to accept like everybody works

879
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:20,320
Speaker 3: remotely all the time and there happen to be offices

880
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 3: where you can sit and work some of the time,

881
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 3: or you have to say, well, we are just not

882
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 3: a remote company.

883
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 1: Personally, I'm very happy to not be going into an

884
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:28,919
Speaker 1: office again.

885
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 2: And look, finally, are there any other general.

886
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 1: Tips or advice that you have for the average work

887
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,759
Speaker 1: from home person to improve their productivity and just have

888
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 1: a more enjoyable experience working remotely.

889
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 3: When I talk to companies about remote culture and making

890
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:47,720
Speaker 3: it work, the one thing I would say is don't

891
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 3: accept the status quo as like this is the way

892
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 3: we're going to work. Keep iterating on that, and I

893
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 3: would say the same two individuals. It is not easy

894
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 3: to especially if you work at home, right, which is

895
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 3: not avironment for remote work. You can get an office,

896
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:03,479
Speaker 3: you can work in a co working space or whatever else.

897
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 3: But if you work at home, I think it's worthwhile

898
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,399
Speaker 3: to spend a lot of time thinking about how can

899
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 3: I improve this? Am I happy with how it is today?

900
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 3: You should not feel like work is your life. Rather,

901
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 3: it should feel like work is a small facet of

902
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:24,240
Speaker 3: life and that happens sometimes throughout the day or sometimes

903
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,919
Speaker 3: throughout the week, and I optimize around that. I think

904
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 3: that is very important, and the best way to deal

905
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 3: with that is to, as you said in the beginning,

906
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 3: create a specific time, specific places to do your work.

907
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 3: Make sure that work space is ergonomic. Make sure to

908
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 3: separate work and life by not having notifications on your

909
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 3: phone for example related to work. Those are simple things,

910
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 3: but they make a huge difference in the way you

911
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 3: will perceive work in a way you will perceive the

912
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 3: rest of life. But you don't want to feel like

913
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 3: you're always working, and I think that is the most

914
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 3: important thing. And then if it comes like little productivity

915
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 3: things and little tips, those are very personal. There's so

916
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 3: many productivity tools. I am completely in love with Rome

917
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 3: Research right now, and I would recommend everybody to use it,

918
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:11,800
Speaker 3: but I know in reality that's not how it works.

919
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 4: It is not for everybody.

920
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 1: I've had great things about Rome, but I haven't tried it.

921
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 1: In a nutshell, can you describe what it is.

922
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 3: It's a note taking tool that is quite opinionated on

923
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:23,799
Speaker 3: one end and very customizable on the other end.

924
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:25,920
Speaker 4: On it's simplest.

925
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 3: What it is is that you take notes, and every

926
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:32,319
Speaker 3: time you have a term or a person, you can

927
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:35,360
Speaker 3: put double brackets around that and it will link to

928
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,239
Speaker 3: every other instance of that term or that person, and

929
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:41,880
Speaker 3: then it essentially builds a giant database that links itself

930
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 3: and it can link to other things.

931
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 4: It's really quite powerful.

932
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 3: So for example, what I do is every time in

933
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 3: the beginning of the day, I put my whole calendar there,

934
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:54,359
Speaker 3: and I put lock brackets around all the people I'm

935
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 3: meeting and the companies that relate to them. So for example,

936
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 3: for today, for this morning, I have here me how

937
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:02,879
Speaker 3: I work podcasts. Those are two separate terms, and if

938
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:04,799
Speaker 3: I click on one, it will link to the other

939
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 3: and any other reference I have of you or your podcast,

940
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:12,240
Speaker 3: for example. And this might be the first time that appears,

941
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 3: but in the future, if I listen to another podcast

942
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 3: episode or I think about it, then I see, oh yeah, no.

943
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 3: It was on February nine that I listened to this,

944
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 3: and these were my thoughts on that day. It's really

945
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 3: powerful and it works a little bit the way most

946
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:27,240
Speaker 3: people think, as in like it becomes one big graph.

947
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:29,759
Speaker 3: I think it works best if you spend time customizing it,

948
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,280
Speaker 3: which is not super simple.

949
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:34,320
Speaker 4: There's not an.

950
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 3: Inbuilt tutorial there somewhat of it, so you have to

951
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,439
Speaker 3: actually spend time wanting to learn it, which is why

952
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 3: it's not the most accessible too. But once you get

953
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 3: into it, there's nothing really that competes with it.

954
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:45,759
Speaker 4: So I really love it.

955
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 1: Awesome and my final question for listeners that want to

956
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 1: connect with you and remote dot com.

957
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 2: What is the best way for people to do that?

958
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 3: So if you neither services, you can just go to

959
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:00,160
Speaker 3: remote dot com. You can also just email me directly

960
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 3: at yop atromolticom. So does job atromoticom. I don't mind

961
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 3: it tw when people email me if you want to

962
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,320
Speaker 3: ask me things about my setup as much it's messagers

963
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 3: reached out on Twitter, it's at yop foul so jobfo

964
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 3: fantastic Yo.

965
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:16,320
Speaker 4: I have loved our chat.

966
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 1: I've loved geeking out and I've loved hearing about your

967
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 1: views on remote work.

968
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 2: It's been awesome. Thank you so much for your time,

969
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:26,760
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. That is it for today's show.

970
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 1: I hope you're feeling all inspired to level up your

971
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 1: home office setup.

972
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:35,319
Speaker 2: I know that I spent a lot of.

973
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 1: Time thinking about mine, and I've definitely taken some of

974
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:43,760
Speaker 1: Yob's advice, definitely checking out keyboard my story, which.

975
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 2: I thought was an awesome recommendation.

976
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 1: Now next week on How I Work, I have Kate

977
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:54,400
Speaker 1: Morris on the show, founder of Adore Beauty, a little

978
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:57,879
Speaker 1: online beauty e Taylor that last year listed on the

979
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 1: ASX for six hundred million dollars. We talk about how

980
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:08,880
Speaker 1: Kate manages her energy and motivation her beauty routine, after all,

981
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 1: she is immersed in the world of beauty and has

982
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 1: been for two decades, and the importance of outsourcing tasks

983
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,800
Speaker 1: at home to actually be able to juggle it all.

984
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 1: Subscribe to How I Work to be alerted when new

985
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 1: episodes such as this one drop. How I Work is

986
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 1: produced by Inventingum with production support from Dead Set Studios.

987
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 2: The producer for this episode was.

988
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 1: The amazing Jenna Coder, and thank you to Martin Imber

989
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 1: my dad, who did the audio mix and makes everything

990
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 1: sound better than it would have otherwise.

991
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 2: See you next time.