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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 1: Bungelung Kalkotin woman from Gadigl country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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Speaker 1: Strain island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

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Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily os. It's Wednesday,

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Speaker 2: the twenty first of December.

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Speaker 3: I'm Zara and I'm Tom.

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Speaker 2: The US House of Representatives Select committee investigating the Jan

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Speaker 2: six riots has now recommended criminal charges belayed against former

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Speaker 2: President Donald Trump. So in today's deep dive, Tom is

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Speaker 2: going to take us through exactly what led up to

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Speaker 2: this moment and what it means for the former president.

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Speaker 2: But first the headlines.

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Speaker 3: Thanks Sarah. Prime Minister Anthony Alberanezi has said that discussions

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Speaker 3: centered on the coordination of gun laws across Australia will

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Speaker 3: be on the agenda at a meding of National Cabinet

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Speaker 3: next year. It comes in the wake of last week's

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Speaker 3: shootout in Regional Queensland between police officers and three armed defenders,

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Speaker 3: which resulted in the deaths of six people.

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Speaker 2: Meanwhile, former Prime Minister Kevin Rudd has been appointed as

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Speaker 2: Australia's new ambassador to the United States. The appointment was

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Speaker 2: announced by PM Anthony Albernizi with Rudd, who said he

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Speaker 2: was greatly honored to be given the role to begin

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Speaker 2: next year.

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Speaker 3: Environment Minister Tony Plibisek has said that history has been

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Speaker 3: made under a global agreement to protect thirty percent of

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Speaker 3: the world's land and oceans by twenty thirty. Plibisk said

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Speaker 3: that Australia didn't get everything it wanted in the deal

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Speaker 3: negotiated at the UN Biodiversity Conference, but said the agreement

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Speaker 3: would achieve a lot for the world.

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Speaker 2: We have an all star Australian cast this morning, but

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Speaker 2: the good news is that renewable energy sources covered South

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Speaker 2: Australia's energy demand for the entirety of the week up

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Speaker 2: to Monday, in what State Premier Peter Malanaskis has called

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Speaker 2: a world first. South Australia was mostly reliant on solar

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Speaker 2: and wind energy across the week, with gas, a non renewable,

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Speaker 2: still making an important contribution in this period. Okay, so

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Speaker 2: Tom for today's Deep dive. We are talking about former

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Speaker 2: President Donald Trump, and we're specifically talking about him not

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Speaker 2: in light of his presidential run, but in light of

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Speaker 2: some recommendations made by a committee that was investigating what

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Speaker 2: happened last year on January sixth. So can we just

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Speaker 2: set the scene and remind listeners what actually happened on

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Speaker 2: that day.

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Speaker 3: Yes, So, January sixth, twenty twenty one, was the day

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Speaker 3: when supporters of Donald Trump stormed the US Capitol Building

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Speaker 3: seeking to stop the certification of the results of the

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty presidential election. So, of course, the twenty twenty

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Speaker 3: election was lost by Donald Trump to Joe Biden, but

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Speaker 3: Trump has never accepted the results of that election. Pretty

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Speaker 3: much from our election night onwards, he suggested that the

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Speaker 3: election had been stolen from him. There were a number

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Speaker 3: of court processes where Trump and his lawyers tried to

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Speaker 3: challenge the results of the election, and it all culminated

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Speaker 3: on the day that the results were supposed to be certified,

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Speaker 3: with pressure on Vice President Mike Pence, who had a

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Speaker 3: formal role in the certification, to refuse to certify, and

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Speaker 3: any encouragement by Trump for people to show up at

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Speaker 3: the White House and protest, and that led, of course

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Speaker 3: to the violent storming of the Capitol and a particular focus.

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Speaker 3: So the people who participated in that riot, a number

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Speaker 3: of them have been charged with various criminal offenses and

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Speaker 3: there have been separate legal proceedings relating to that. But

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Speaker 3: there has always been this interest in, well, what was

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Speaker 3: President Trump's role. Obviously he spoke so often about how

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Speaker 3: the election been stolen from him, to what extent is

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Speaker 3: he responsible for the events that happened on that day.

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Speaker 2: It's hard to forget what happened that day. It's even

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Speaker 2: harder to believe that it was almost two years ago.

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Speaker 2: But in the meantime, as you've mentioned there, there's been

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Speaker 2: a committee that has been investigating what the role of

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Speaker 2: the former president during the lead up and indeed on

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Speaker 2: the day itself was. Can you tell me a bit

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Speaker 2: about the committee and then what they found.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So the committee was set up by the US

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Speaker 3: House of Representatives and specifically really by Democrats in the

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Speaker 3: US House of Representatives. Democrats have had a majority in

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Speaker 3: the House of Reps for the last couple of years.

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Speaker 3: They used that to set up this committee with only

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Speaker 3: two members on it who were Republicans. The job was

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Speaker 3: to investigate and to make a series of findings about

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Speaker 3: what happened on January sixth. So the committee conducted a

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Speaker 3: number of investigations, It had some public hearings, It went

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Speaker 3: through a whole bunch of different evidence, text messages that

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Speaker 3: went back and forth, and went through things in a

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Speaker 3: very methodical way. But although that sounds a little bit

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Speaker 3: like a trial, this is not a trial. It's a

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Speaker 3: bunch of members of the US House of Representatives considering

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Speaker 3: these things and basically making a declaration at the end

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Speaker 3: of it about what they believe happened. It doesn't carry

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Speaker 3: any formal legal weight. It's not the same as Donald

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Speaker 3: Trump being charged with any sort of crimes. It was

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Speaker 3: basically a process really for for these members of Congress

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Speaker 3: to I suppose, choo through what happened and to have

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Speaker 3: some sort of reckoning I guess with the events of

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Speaker 3: January sixth.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So, keeping all of that in mind, what did

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Speaker 2: the committee actually find and what did they recommend?

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Speaker 3: So the committee concluded that in its view, Donald Trump

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Speaker 3: should be charged with a number of crimes. Again, that's

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Speaker 3: not the same as him actually being charged with crimes.

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Speaker 3: That's a job for the Department of Justice to decide,

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Speaker 3: but the committee certainly came to the view that there

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Speaker 3: was a case there. And then in fact, there were

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Speaker 3: a number of crimes. So they suggested that Trump himself

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Speaker 3: had committed a conspiracy to defraud the US public, basically

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Speaker 3: spreading lies and trying to take action to question the

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Speaker 3: results of the US election and to disrupt the peaceful

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Speaker 3: transition of power himself. And then there was also a

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Speaker 3: suggestion that he had committed the crime of assisting an insurrection,

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Speaker 3: essentially inciting the rioters to do what they did on

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Speaker 3: that day. So separately, I suppose that they're suggesting that

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Speaker 3: there are some crimes that Trump committed himself in making

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Speaker 3: the claims that he did and pursuing the legal action

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Speaker 3: that he did to try and stop the election results

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Speaker 3: from being certified and to challenge baselessly the election results.

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Speaker 3: And then separately what he did in terms of inciting

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Speaker 3: his supporters to come to Washington, allowing them or encouraging

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Speaker 3: them to storm the capital in the way that they did,

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Speaker 3: and they're not taking steps to stop them on the

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Speaker 3: day that that itself might be a crime. So those

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Speaker 3: crimes taken together, obviously some fairly serious ones in there

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Speaker 3: would result if he were ever convicted in a pretty

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Speaker 3: significant prison sentence. But as I say, it doesn't carry

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Speaker 3: any legal way that this committee has come to that recommendation.

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Speaker 3: They've made a recommendation to the Department of Justice. Attorney

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Speaker 3: General Merrick Garland, who runs that department, will have to

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Speaker 3: make a decision next about whether he wants to bring

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Speaker 3: any charges against Trump. He is currently investigating Trump in

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Speaker 3: connection with January sixth, He's investigating Trump in relation to

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Speaker 3: a couple of other things as well.

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Speaker 2: Can you just clarify there, Tom, because I feel like

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Speaker 2: every time we open the news, there is another investigation

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Speaker 2: into Trump, and some of them are related, but some

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Speaker 2: of them are unrelated. What is currently live in terms

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Speaker 2: of investigations either into Trump or into organizations he might

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Speaker 2: own or operate.

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Speaker 3: Yes, so there are really two main ones there. There

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Speaker 3: is this. There is the investigation into January the sixth, So,

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Speaker 3: as I say, the Department of Justice is looking into

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Speaker 3: that at the moment, the House Committees finding might add

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Speaker 3: some strength to that, but that's a process that's ongoing.

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Speaker 3: And then separately, there is an investigation into Trump for

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Speaker 3: his handling of classified material basically there are a bunch

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Speaker 3: of boxes of classified US government documents that were found

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Speaker 3: at his Mara Lago residence in Florida, and there are

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Speaker 3: questions about whether that was an appropriate way to dispose

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Speaker 3: of classified, sensitive US government information after Trump left office.

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Speaker 3: So they're kind of the two legal things that the

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Speaker 3: Department of Justice is considering against Trump. Separately, across the country,

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Speaker 3: there are a number of different bits of legal action

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Speaker 3: that are following the conduct of Donald Trump's companies and

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Speaker 3: the management of his tax affairs and his company's tax affairs.

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Speaker 3: So there are all sorts of different legal things that

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump's embroiled in at the moment. The two key

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Speaker 3: ones really are that classified documents investigation and the stuff

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Speaker 3: about January sixth.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so then returning to January sixth, you've hinted that,

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Speaker 2: in fact, it could be that these recommendations don't hold

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Speaker 2: much or any way. But in your eyes, what is

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Speaker 2: the significance of these sorts of recommendations.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a really good question. Kind of does this

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Speaker 3: even matter because I suppose, I mean, you know, we

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Speaker 3: cover these things every time they come up, and we've

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Speaker 3: talked a few times about the House Committee into Donald

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Speaker 3: Trump and all of these investigations. But at the end

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Speaker 3: of the day, you get to the end of this process.

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Speaker 3: And as I say, the committee was set up by Democrats.

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Speaker 3: It's something that Donald Trump has certainly never taken seriously.

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Speaker 3: He says, the whole thing is a stunt, and obviously

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Speaker 3: it carries no legal weight. So I think it's not

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Speaker 3: unreasonable to get to this point and ask, well, does

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Speaker 3: it matter? And on the one hand, of course it does.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's quite significant. This is the first time

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Speaker 3: in history that any sort of committee from Congress has

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Speaker 3: come to the view that a former president committed crimes.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that is a really significant moment. Clearly this was,

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Speaker 3: you know, this kind of very large moment in American history.

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Speaker 3: I think one of the members of the House committee

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Speaker 3: referred to it as the biggest attack on American democracy

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Speaker 3: since the Civil War. This is obviously really significant stuff,

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Speaker 3: and yet it's not actually clear that it leads anywhere.

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Speaker 3: And I think that that just reflects the way that

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Speaker 3: American politics. This is going to sound like a strange

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Speaker 3: thing to say, has so much politics in it. What

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Speaker 3: I mean by that is that, you know, this process

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Speaker 3: is politicized, right, This is a committee that was mostly

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Speaker 3: full of Democrats, you know, making a finding against a

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Speaker 3: Republican president. And then you look ahead and you go, well,

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Speaker 3: the Department of Justice comes next. The Department of Justice

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Speaker 3: is also politicized in America. The Attorney General is appointed

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Speaker 3: by President Biden. It is President Biden's Justice department that

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Speaker 3: will make the decision about what to do next. And

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Speaker 3: then you suppose this goes to a court and Donald

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Speaker 3: Trump is actually put on trial for these crimes, Well,

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Speaker 3: eventually that is going to end up in the Supreme Court,

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Speaker 3: where again there is politicization, and in this case it's

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Speaker 3: controlled the Republican Party. And even if Donald Trump gets

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Speaker 3: through all the way there and is convicted and goes

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Speaker 3: to jail, he can be pardoned by a Republican president.

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Speaker 3: So everywhere you look through this there is politics, politics, politics.

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Speaker 3: There is no section of the American government really where

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Speaker 3: you get to escape this. And I think that that's

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Speaker 3: something where we maybe don't always appreciate just how different

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Speaker 3: America's system is to ours in that respect, because when

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Speaker 3: you look at our system of government, we do have

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Speaker 3: these sort of independent umpires and officials all through the system.

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Speaker 3: Our public service, for example, is full of you know,

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Speaker 3: senior public servants are independent. We have courts, of course

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Speaker 3: that are independent as well. We have, you know, most

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Speaker 3: recently set up a federal integrity Commission. If something like

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Speaker 3: this happened in Australia, it would go before an independent

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Speaker 3: federal integrity commission. And again, you know, I mean, you

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Speaker 3: might say, well, these who are these independent people in Australia?

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Speaker 3: Who elected them? Is that really so democratic? But one

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Speaker 3: thing that that does give you in Australia is this

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Speaker 3: kind of point of closure, a sort of an unimpeachable,

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Speaker 3: independent authority that you can go to to resolve a

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Speaker 3: matter like this, somewhere where you can actually take a

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Speaker 3: dispute of this kind and get some sort of resolution,

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Speaker 3: whether Trump ort to have his name clear or whether

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Speaker 3: he's found guilty. America just doesn't really have that in

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Speaker 3: a sense. That's a deliberate part of the design of

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Speaker 3: its structure. This is a country that elects political people

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Speaker 3: to be sheriffs and to run school boards. It's baked

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Speaker 3: into the structure of America. But I think at times

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Speaker 3: like this of such hyper partisan opposition in America, we

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Speaker 3: really see some of the limitations of that.

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Speaker 2: Tom thank you for reminding me on a Wednesday morning

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Speaker 2: why I love to live in Australia, and for joining

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Speaker 2: us on this episode of the Daily Odds. If you

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Speaker 2: learnt something today from what Tom had to say or

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Speaker 2: any of those insights towards the end, please don't forget

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Speaker 2: to hit subscribe, so there's a TDA episode waiting for

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Speaker 2: you every weekday morning. We'll be back again tomorrow, but

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Speaker 2: until then, have a great day.