1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: Like many of us, you probably spend a significant amount 2 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: of your week in meetings, but how many of those 3 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 1: meetings actually feel productive? Are they driving your team forward 4 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: or just draining time and energy. Today we're going to 5 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: learn how to change that and turn meetings into one 6 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 1: of the most powerful tools in your toolkit. I'm thrilled 7 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: to have Professor Stephen Rogelberg back on How I Work 8 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 1: to help us make the most of our meetings. Stephen 9 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 1: is an organizational psychologist and a professor who has received 10 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:40,879 Speaker 1: awards for his research into meeting effectiveness, and Adam Grant 11 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:45,279 Speaker 1: has even described Stephen as the world's leading expert on 12 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 1: how to fix meetings. In this episode, Stephen will reveal 13 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: the common mistakes we all make when it comes to meetings, 14 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: how to prepare a meeting for success before it even starts, 15 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: and how you can be the most effective meeting leader ever. 16 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals, 17 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: and strategies for optimizing your day. I'm your host, doctor 18 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 1: Amantha Imber. According to Stephen, there are about one billion 19 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 1: meetings held around the world every day. That is a 20 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: lot of meetings, and I think we can be sure 21 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 1: not all of them actually need to happen. So the 22 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: first rule for holding an effective meeting is to figure 23 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:35,040 Speaker 1: out if you even need to be having a meeting 24 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 1: in the first place. You know, the saying this meeting 25 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: could have been an email. But how exactly do you 26 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: figure out if something deserves a meeting or not? For Stephen, 27 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 1: this is apparently quite simple. 28 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 2: Well, the general rule of thumb is that A you 29 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 2: have a compelling topic, and b that compelling topic needs 30 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 2: engagement and involvement. Right, So there's that two pieces to it. 31 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 2: If something is not compelling or doesn't need engagement, then 32 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 2: you don't need a meeting. 33 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,640 Speaker 1: You make it sound so simple. Are there some rules 34 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:14,359 Speaker 1: of thumb or different categories of things that we might 35 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: want to be talking about that we can go Yes, 36 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: that definitely needs a meeting. 37 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 2: No, there isn't. There really is just this general intentionality 38 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 2: to step back and say, Okay, I'm putting this together, 39 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 2: who really needs to be there? And do I need 40 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 2: to actually have this meeting? But let me tell you 41 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 2: a technique, right, that can be helpful because I know 42 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 2: you like specifics and practical tips, so let me share 43 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 2: one of that. You obviously know about agendas and agendas 44 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 2: are typically organized by topics. So what I want to 45 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 2: challenge meeting leaders to do is to organize their agenda 46 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 2: as a set of questions to be answered. By framing 47 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 2: your agenda's questions to be answered, now you actually have 48 00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 2: to stop and really think about why you're having this meeting, right, 49 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 2: it's to answer these questions. So that's a way of 50 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 2: addressing one of the things you talked about. By framing 51 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 2: your agenda's questions, you now have a better sense of 52 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 2: who to invite the relevant to the questions. You know, 53 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 2: if the meeting has been successful, the questions have been answered. 54 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 2: Questions creates an engaging challenge for attendees that brings them 55 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 2: in and to your question. By framing, if you just 56 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,839 Speaker 2: can't think of any questions, a likely means you don't 57 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 2: need a meeting. So I think this question based approach 58 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 2: can serve as a nice litmus test for figuring out 59 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 2: whether you need a meeting or not. 60 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:40,839 Speaker 1: Now you mentioned that questions will help us figure out 61 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: who to invite. What should we be thinking if we 62 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: are the meeting organizer and we're deciding who should I invite, 63 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: and maybe we're questioning, oh, we're borderline on some people, Yeah, 64 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: what should we do? 65 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 2: So it's almost like think about planning a wedding. Right 66 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 2: when we plan a wedding, we know who has to 67 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 2: be there, and then we know, well, these people might 68 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 2: be nice to have. The must haves are very clear. 69 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 2: It's the nice hat to haves. I guess it's in trouble, 70 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 2: especially because once we invite one of the nice to haves, 71 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 2: then we feel pressure to invite additional ones. So the 72 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 2: general thinking is, let's identify the must haves and then 73 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:20,359 Speaker 2: the nice to haves. Let's just have a separate conversation 74 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 2: with them. Let's tell them, Hey, we're having a meeting 75 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 2: around X, Y and Z. I don't think it's highly 76 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 2: relevant to you. If you have any input on it, 77 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 2: let me know. If not, you know, I'm going to 78 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 2: keep you in the loops so you can decide to 79 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 2: attend future meetings if you like. When you do that, 80 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 2: when you kind of close the loop in some way 81 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 2: for these nice to haves and you do deliver some 82 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 2: quick meeting notes like, they are so relieved, they are 83 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 2: so grateful that you're respecting their time. So really, I 84 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 2: think the exercise is to think of this. I do 85 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 2: think this wedding analogy works. You know this whole must 86 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 2: have nice to have focus on the must haves and 87 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:58,919 Speaker 2: the nice to haves. Let's give them a break and 88 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 2: figure out another way that they can still be in 89 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 2: the loop, provides some input without losing their time. 90 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 1: What else can we do before the meeting to give 91 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: it the best chance of success. 92 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 2: Well, let me frame it this way. In our research, 93 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 2: the best meeting leaders appear to have something in common, 94 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 2: and what they have in common is a similar mindset, 95 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 2: and that mindset is a mindset of stewardship. They're a 96 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 2: steward of others' time. The thought of people leaving their 97 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 2: meetings saying it was a waste is so uncomfortable to 98 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 2: them that they act with intentionality. And this intentionality is 99 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 2: instead of just you know, dialing the meeting in using 100 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 2: default calendar settings, right, you're making choices. You're saying, Okay, 101 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 2: I'm having this meeting, this is how long I think 102 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 2: it should be, this is who must be there. So 103 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 2: you're just being intentional. And furthermore, one of the things 104 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 2: I talk about in my book is this idea of 105 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 2: a pre mortem, and a pre mortem is where you 106 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 2: start to think about what are the potential challenges and 107 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 2: problems that could arise in the meeting? And given that, 108 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 2: how should I design the meeting? And so it's just 109 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 2: stepping back and giving it a little bit of thought. 110 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 2: And interestingly, we act with intentionality all the time when 111 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 2: we're meeting with important stakeholders because we don't want those 112 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 2: people to leave the meeting saying that was a waste 113 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:31,480 Speaker 2: of time. But we typically don't act with intentionality when 114 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 2: it comes to meeting with our peers or directs. So 115 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,239 Speaker 2: this intentionality is just saying, all right, people are giving 116 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 2: me the biggest gift. They have their time, so how 117 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 2: can I honor that time? And so the decisions are, 118 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 2: you know, tightness of invites ordering of the agenda right, 119 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 2: hit the most important things first, you know, not the 120 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 2: superficial stuff. Right, Keep the meeting as short and tight 121 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 2: as possible. You can always find more time to meet, 122 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 2: but we know from Parkinson's law that work expands to 123 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:01,280 Speaker 2: fill whatever time is a lot to do it, so 124 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 2: keep it tight, you'll get it done. And those are 125 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 2: some really important intentional design factors to keep in mind. 126 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: What else have you found that the best meeting leaders 127 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: have in common? 128 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 2: So that's the main one, but then there's other ones 129 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 2: that fall from that. For example, facilitation when one of 130 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 2: the best predictors of people's perceptions of an ineffective meeting 131 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 2: is the leader doing more talking than the attendees. The 132 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 2: more the leader talks, the more the ratings go down. 133 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 2: And that makes a heck of a lot of sense, right, 134 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 2: because the leader is supposed to be facilitating. That's their job, right. 135 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 2: They've called this party together and their job is to 136 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:43,679 Speaker 2: get these voices out. It doesn't mean that they can't 137 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 2: talk during it, but mean it does mean that they 138 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 2: shouldn't be dominating because they invited people. If they dominate, 139 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 2: the meeting could have just been an email. So that 140 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 2: propensity to facilitate is really critical. And what underlies that 141 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 2: is this desire to listen, right, to truly engage and include. 142 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 2: And then the other characteristic of really good meeting leaders 143 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 2: is they understand that meetings need an end. Ding. So 144 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 2: we know meetings end, right, everything ends, but an ending 145 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 2: is something different, right. An ending is where you stop 146 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 2: three to five minutes before the end and you say, okay, 147 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 2: well did we actually decide? And for each of these things, 148 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 2: who is the dri the directly responsible individual and what 149 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 2: did we not decide so we know that these are 150 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 2: things that we have to discuss at another time. At 151 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 2: the same time, during this ending, you're recording this key 152 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 2: information so your non attendees can stay in the loop. 153 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:52,319 Speaker 2: So that is another key thing that really differentiates excellent 154 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:54,959 Speaker 2: meeting leaders from not so excellent meeting leaders. 155 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: What else can we do during a meeting to get 156 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: the best outcome, whether that they facilitation techniques that work, 157 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: or other strategies that you found. 158 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 2: I mean, facilitation is absolutely the most key, but you know, 159 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 2: there's lots of different ways to have a meeting, and so, 160 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 2: for example, silence in meetings is phenomenal. The research shows 161 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 2: that when people brainstorm in silence typing directly into their computers, 162 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 2: they generate nearly twice as many ideas, and the ideas 163 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,079 Speaker 2: tend to be more creative, right because everyone can talk 164 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 2: at once and you're not influenced by that very first 165 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:31,559 Speaker 2: thing you hear. So a meeting leader can say, okay, 166 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 2: depending on what we're trying to solve, maybe silent brainstorming 167 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 2: could be really meaningful. Again, depending on what you want 168 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 2: to solve. Sometimes a standing meeting is really a helpful. 169 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 2: Standing meetings generally take half as much time and yield 170 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 2: the same quality decisions. You might choose to get people 171 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 2: into pairs before the conversation. What we've found is that 172 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 2: when you tell people, hey, again, to pairs and start 173 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 2: to talk about this problem or issue for just three minutes, 174 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 2: and then we'll all come together. When you do that 175 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 2: and then you return to the big group, people are participating, right, 176 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:10,959 Speaker 2: you've kind of greased the rails. So that's another technique 177 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 2: that could be super helpful. So there's lots of choices, 178 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:19,439 Speaker 2: and that's I think a really key takeaway for your 179 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 2: listeners is that we need meeting leaders to think about 180 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 2: things and make choices. You know, we have around a 181 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 2: billion meetings a day around the globe and they generally 182 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 2: all look the same. That's not good, right, Let's mix 183 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:38,199 Speaker 2: it up. Let's change it up and position yourself as 184 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 2: a leader as part of the solution as opposed to 185 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 2: being part of the problem. 186 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: Have you seen particularly effective ways to open a meeting, 187 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: whether it be effective, creative, what have you seen that works? 188 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 2: So the opening of a meeting is indeed important, and 189 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,559 Speaker 2: the best practice is after you know, three to five 190 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 2: minutes of just kind of conversation and some quick notes 191 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,839 Speaker 2: you go hard on the most important topic. It's also 192 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 2: at times helpful for the meeting leader to start the 193 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 2: meeting sharing what her hopes are for the meeting. That 194 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 2: you know, right when you say listen, I really want 195 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 2: everyone to engage. You're here because I need your voice. 196 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 2: We also need people to disagree with one another, not personally, 197 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 2: but about ideas, right, So starting the meeting with some 198 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 2: expectations increases the chances of those behaviors happening, So that's 199 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 2: really valuable. Another key thing is, you know, a meeting 200 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 2: leader has to recognize that they are inherently a host, 201 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 2: right they call this meeting party together. So what does 202 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 2: a host do. A host welcomes people, a host makes introductions. 203 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 2: A host is also sensitive to their own mood state. Interestingly, 204 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 2: one of the best predictors of the mood of a 205 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 2: meeting is the mood of the leader coming into the meeting, 206 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 2: and mood actually matters. When the mood of the meeting 207 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 2: is better, people listen to one another, they tend to 208 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 2: be more creative, and they tend to disagree more constructively. 209 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 2: So those are some really key things that leaders can do. 210 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 2: At the start. 211 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: It's interesting about mood. What can we do if we 212 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: know that the meeting is going to be a difficult 213 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: one in terms of the conversation that we're tackling, What 214 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: can we do to give that meeting the best chance 215 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: of success? 216 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 2: Well, I think I'm going to circle back to what 217 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:21,319 Speaker 2: I mentioned earlier about this idea of framing your agenda's 218 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 2: questions to be answered. So now when you submit that agenda, 219 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 2: you are signaling very clearly what's going to happen. Most 220 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 2: of these agendas actually don't really do a good job 221 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 2: signaling to people what's the critical matters. So I think 222 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 2: that that is a really useful strategy for getting people 223 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 2: ready to go and to participate. 224 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: We will be back with Stevens soon, and when we return, 225 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: he'll be sharing some of the quirkier, unique things that 226 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 1: you can do to engage people in a meeting and 227 00:12:53,600 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 1: what the biggest predictors of meeting satisfaction are. If you're 228 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 1: looking for more tips to improve the way you work 229 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: can live. I write a short weekly newsletter that contains 230 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally. You can 231 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 1: sign up for that at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha 232 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:21,079 Speaker 1: dot com. What else can we do during the meeting? 233 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: What are some of the more quirkier techniques that you've 234 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: seen to engage people and get the best out of people. 235 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 2: So the silent one certainly is quirky, but I'll add 236 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 2: that interestingly, taking a break. You know, even if you 237 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:37,439 Speaker 2: have a sixty minute meeting, taking a three minute break 238 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 2: in the middle of the meeting is quirky and really effective. Generally, 239 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 2: it does a couple of things. First of all, we 240 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 2: all know that people are technology addicted, so during that 241 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 2: little break, people can check their phones as opposed to 242 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 2: doing it during the meeting. Next, what typically happens when 243 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 2: you have a break is after that break, someone will say, hey, 244 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 2: I was also thinking about X. Because typically meetings are 245 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 2: kind of like a runaway train. They get momentum, and 246 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 2: when you have a break, it breaks that momentum and 247 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 2: allows for other content to emerge. So that's another interesting 248 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 2: possibility that you can play with. The other thing that 249 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 2: maybe is a little quirky that works is to do 250 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 2: some of these voting apps to test consensus. We often 251 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 2: rely on determining whether there's consensus based on the loudest voices, 252 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 2: and that's not effective. So if we quickly stop and say, hey, 253 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 2: you know, I want to get a pulse of where 254 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 2: folks are out. We're talking about these three things, where's 255 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 2: everyone out? Which ones do you support? And do it 256 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 2: via an app. That's a nice way of really getting 257 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 2: a good feel for things and figuring out whether you 258 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 2: could go in different directions. You can also use that 259 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 2: voting to say do you think we need to keep 260 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 2: talking about this? Are you ready to make a decision? 261 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 1: Right? 262 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 2: So there's a lot of check ins that can happen 263 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 2: in a very safe way that allows you to be 264 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 2: a meeting leader that's sensitive to the broader dynamics, just 265 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 2: not the loudest voices. 266 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 1: I love the idea of voting apps. It also makes 267 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: me think of very large meetings, But what is your 268 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: research found in terms of the optimal size for a. 269 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 2: Meeting doesn't exist. There's no such thing as an optimal size. 270 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 2: It just always comes down to what you're trying to achieve, 271 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 2: and depending on what you're trying to achieve, that determines 272 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 2: the size. Now, if it is around decision making, you know, 273 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 2: once you start passing eight people, it's just hard to 274 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 2: truly facilitate. You have to be a very skilled facilitator 275 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 2: to bring out more voices. So that's something to keep 276 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 2: in mind. If the meeting is more of a tell 277 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 2: show questions than you know, like a town hall, then 278 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 2: those meetings can be really large because you're not really 279 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 2: looking for folks to deeply engage on the content. So 280 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 2: depending on what you're trying to achieve, that kind of 281 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 2: determines who needs to be there and who doesn't need 282 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 2: to be there. 283 00:15:57,600 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: I'd love to know more about those town hall meetings 284 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 1: because you know, ideally, well what you said is that 285 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: the facilitator of the meeting, the leader of the meeting, 286 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: would do best not to talk so much. But typically 287 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: in a town hall, the leaders talk a lot. So 288 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: what does a great town hall look like? 289 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 2: We just have to remember what town halls do well 290 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 2: and what they do bad. They're not for discussion, So 291 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 2: the best town halls are just short, and the best 292 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 2: town halls bring up critical issues and not the superficial 293 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 2: issues because the superficial issues could just be handled via 294 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 2: email or you could record yourself talking. So if you're 295 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 2: putting people into a context where they're just going to 296 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 2: be listening, to someone talk. I mean, just keep in 297 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 2: mind that, you know, our batteries for that are pretty 298 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 2: darn low, So keep it short, keep it really short. 299 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: What does short mean? What is short? 300 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 2: I think most town halls can be twenty minutes. 301 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: That is a lot shorter than most holes. 302 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 2: Suspect. Yeah, I agree. 303 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:09,400 Speaker 1: What is your opinion on AI tools in meetings? What 304 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: can help us and what can hinder? 305 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 2: You know, I fully embrace it. I think there's lots 306 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 2: of possibilities. I think AI could be extremely helpful with 307 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:21,160 Speaker 2: the scheduling of meetings, finding some good openings for folks 308 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:26,360 Speaker 2: in thoughtful ways. I think AI is fantastic for capturing 309 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,919 Speaker 2: the meeting notes. We've really gotten better at that. You know, 310 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 2: even the built in packages into Zoom what have you 311 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 2: does a great job capturing what are the key takeaways 312 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 2: from the meeting. It's awesome. I think AI excels with that, 313 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 2: which is great again as a way of managing number 314 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:51,639 Speaker 2: of attendees. What I'm still struggling with is AI serving 315 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 2: in any type of facilitation role. So there are startups 316 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 2: that are playing with that. You know, where the AI 317 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 2: is putting time feedback saying hey, this person hasn't talked 318 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 2: or hers who's talking the most, and the leader is 319 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 2: able to monitor that. You know, then there's AI saying, 320 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 2: you know, actually prompting saying you know. They might say, 321 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 2: you know, Amanthad, what do you think? So I'm not 322 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 2: as keen on that. I want the meeting leader to 323 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 2: do that, I really do. I don't want to punt 324 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 2: that to AI. Over time, the AI facilitator is going 325 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 2: to get better and better and better, but I don't 326 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 2: think that fundamentally changes the need for the meeting leader 327 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 2: to be thoughtful in the design and execution of the meeting. 328 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 2: So yeah, I love use of AI definitely for scheduling 329 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 2: and note taking, though I think it's very, very helpful. 330 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 1: I'd love to know about meeting satisfaction because that's something 331 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: that you've measured many, many times. What are the biggest 332 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 1: predictors of meeting satisfaction? Some of which we might have covered, 333 00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 1: but I'm wondering if there's other things that we haven't covered. 334 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 2: So participation is a key one. Relevance of the meeting 335 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 2: is a key one. The leader facilitating definitely a key one. 336 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 2: The types of participation and listening of other attendees is 337 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 2: really important and then interestingly, one of the better predictors 338 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 2: of meeting satisfaction is actually food. Yeah. Yeah, having food 339 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 2: and meetings seems to make people pretty darn excited. But 340 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 2: I would argue it's not the food in and of itself, 341 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 2: but food helps people make separation from what they were 342 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 2: doing before the meeting to the meeting itself, which I 343 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 2: think allows them to be more focused. Food can also 344 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,119 Speaker 2: elevate mood into a more positive direction, which also can 345 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 2: lead to a more positive meeting. But yeah, snacks can 346 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 2: be helpful. 347 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: What else can we do to elevate mood? 348 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 2: Steven? You know, I think a meeting leader expressing appreciation 349 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 2: and gratitude. That's a really key stage for that. Even 350 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 2: during trying and difficult times, we can always find opportunities 351 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 2: to express appreciation and gratitude. So I think starting these 352 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:15,120 Speaker 2: types of engagements with those types of reflections can get 353 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 2: people in a really good headspace. 354 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: I would love to explore what happens after the meeting, 355 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:26,439 Speaker 1: like what is in our control after the meeting ends, 356 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 1: to make sure that it was time will. 357 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:33,440 Speaker 2: Spend If the meeting has a proper ending, like I mentioned, 358 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 2: with things being recorded and DRIs being identified, the chances 359 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 2: of action happening is so much higher. So it's really 360 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:47,199 Speaker 2: comes down to that ending and doing it well. You know, 361 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 2: once that's documented, then the leader is very well positioned 362 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:54,119 Speaker 2: to follow up and make sure that these things actually happen. 363 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 2: But so often at the end of the meeting, you know, 364 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 2: people are actually not clear what was decided, they're not 365 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 2: clear who's responsible, so action doesn't happen and leaders don't 366 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:09,119 Speaker 2: follow up. So having that proper ending just increases the 367 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:10,920 Speaker 2: chances of all those things happening. 368 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:13,239 Speaker 1: Are there are ways that you encourage people to just 369 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 1: keep track on this was an action that came out 370 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:19,919 Speaker 1: of the meeting and so we need to track that, 371 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:21,679 Speaker 1: or do we just have trust? 372 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,879 Speaker 2: Yeah? I think trust is great and I think should 373 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:30,640 Speaker 2: always be the lead strategy. But there's no reason why 374 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 2: the meeting outcomes can be recorded into an asynchronous document 375 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 2: that everyone can look and track and people can provide 376 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 2: updates of how what the progress they're making. So I 377 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 2: think that's perfectly fine action to take, and I think 378 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 2: people generally welcome it. 379 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 1: I'd love to know from all the research that you 380 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: have done, what have been some of the more surprising 381 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: findings that you found in your research. 382 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,439 Speaker 2: Well, I think it's always surprising that agendas in and 383 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 2: of themselves do not improve meeting quality. I think that's 384 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 2: something that's surprising, but when people reflect, it's not much 385 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,679 Speaker 2: of a surprise because so many agendas are just recycled 386 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 2: meeting to meeting. And then what matters more is what's 387 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,159 Speaker 2: on the agenda, right, is it truly compelling? And what 388 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,440 Speaker 2: matters even more is how you facilitate discussion of that agenda. 389 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 2: So this idea of just having a piece of paper 390 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 2: with topics isn't all that inspirational. This is why in 391 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 2: my book I title the chapter agendas are a hollow crutch, 392 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:31,919 Speaker 2: because so often leaders think by having an agenda that 393 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 2: they're a good meeting leader, and they're not. So that, 394 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 2: to me is kind of a fun surprising finding. Another 395 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 2: I think interesting finding is to me has always been 396 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 2: this idea that when you survey people coming out of 397 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 2: a meeting, there is one person who says that was 398 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 2: really good, and that person is the leading leader, the 399 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 2: meeting leader. The meeting leader seems to have this inflated 400 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 2: sense of how well the meeting went, and why wouldn't 401 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 2: they right, they are talking as much as they want 402 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 2: and so this disconnect though, I think is really important 403 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 2: because given this disconnect, meeting leaders aren't all that motivated 404 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 2: to make many changes to how they run meeting because 405 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 2: they think it went pretty well. So overall, they generally 406 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 2: think the meeting problem is due to others, not themselves. 407 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 1: How can we overcome that? How can we give leaders 408 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,719 Speaker 1: a bit more of a clear idea of what's going on? 409 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, So, like I'm working with this company called Chiros Kairos, 410 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 2: and it's a Canadian company. They're really cool and basic. 411 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 2: What they do is they've created a solution where leaders 412 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 2: can actually see how they are at running meetings, and 413 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 2: then they're given feedback and they're provided with tools and 414 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 2: tricks and tips to address the feedback they received. So 415 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,719 Speaker 2: a technology solution, I think is a great way of 416 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 2: addressing the issue. But then there's lower fidelity solutions as well. So, 417 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 2: for example, the meeting leader can every once in a 418 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 2: while survey their people and ask them what's going well, 419 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,239 Speaker 2: not so well, and ideas for making the meetings better. Right, 420 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 2: meetings are shared experiences. Leaders know that people are frustrated 421 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,160 Speaker 2: by meetings. So if you position yourself, there's someone interested 422 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 2: in solving it. It's a great reflection on you. 423 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,199 Speaker 1: I love that advice, Stephen. I am so glad that 424 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 1: you agreed to meet with me for a second time. 425 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: You are such a fountain of knowledge when it comes 426 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 1: to meetings, and I so appreciate your time. I hope 427 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: I have used it respectfully. I let you do most 428 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:33,919 Speaker 1: of the talking, so I did that. 429 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, you're a great facilitator. I totally feel so, and 430 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 2: that's why I decided to do it again. So thank 431 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,920 Speaker 2: you appreciate it, and yeah, thank you for helping bring 432 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 2: the science to your audience. 433 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Steven. I hope you love this 434 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: chat with Steven as much as I did. They're are 435 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 1: definitely a few strategies I think we can all implement 436 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 1: into our next meeting. If you want to learn more 437 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: about Steven, you can check out his websites Stephenrogelberg dot com. 438 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 1: He has a ton of resources there to help you 439 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 1: out with your next meeting, as well as links to 440 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: his books, which are awesome, and believe it or not, 441 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:14,880 Speaker 1: he doesn't make a single cent from his book sales 442 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: because he donates everything he makes from them to cancer research. 443 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 1: You can find a link to his website in the 444 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: show notes. If you like today's show, make sure you 445 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 1: get follow on your podcast app to be alerted when 446 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: new episodes drop. How I Work was recorded on the 447 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: traditional land of the Warringery people, part of the Coulan nation.