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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers Now. Hello, this

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Speaker 1: is doctor Justin Colson.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to another week and another edition to the Happy

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Speaker 2: Families Podcast. Today joining me Detective Superintendent Jane Crossling from

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Speaker 2: the Australian Senate Account of Child Exploitation, otherwise known as ACE.

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Speaker 2: Jane has been on the podcast a couple of times

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Speaker 2: now talking about all things online, all the challenges that

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Speaker 2: we face when it comes to keeping our children safe

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Speaker 2: and working with.

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Speaker 1: The police to counter child exploitation.

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Speaker 2: You can imagine that Jane has a lot of wisdom

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Speaker 2: and unfortunately a whole lot of experience that we don't

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Speaker 2: really want to experience ourselves to lean on.

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Speaker 1: Jane, Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me.

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Speaker 3: Thank you Jackson.

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Speaker 2: I want to have a conversation with you today about

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Speaker 2: something that there's been a lot of noise about in

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Speaker 2: the media over the last couple of weeks, and I

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Speaker 2: have to be honest, I don't think it's that big

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Speaker 2: of a deal and I'd love for you to either

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Speaker 2: put me straight or provide me with the reassurance so

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Speaker 2: long as a few things are taken care of the

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Speaker 2: topic is parents taking photos of their kids in their

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Speaker 2: school uniform and posting them online. So obviously, in the

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Speaker 2: last couple of weeks, the entire nation has returned from

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Speaker 2: summer holidays, Christmas holidays, everyone's kids have gone back to school.

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Speaker 2: And I can't count on all my fingers and all

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Speaker 2: my toes the number of my Facebook friends, my Instagram

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Speaker 2: friends who have been sharing photos of their kids online

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Speaker 2: saying first day of school, or look at this happy bunch,

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Speaker 2: And for me, I'm looking at it going I don't

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Speaker 2: know why there's all these new news articles about the

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Speaker 2: potential threats. Obviously I'm not working in the area that

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Speaker 2: you're working in. But is it really that risky to

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Speaker 2: post a pic of your kids outside their school or

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Speaker 2: in their school uniform online to celebrate the fact that

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Speaker 2: they've done something awesome when they're going back to school,

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Speaker 2: or they're about to win the cross country or they've

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Speaker 2: won the swimming carnival.

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Speaker 1: Or whatever it is.

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Speaker 2: What's the hype around this and is it overstated or

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Speaker 2: is it legitimate?

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Speaker 3: Okay, it's legitimate, and we welcome the opportunity to talk

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Speaker 3: about some of the reasons why we do say it

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Speaker 3: is legitimate, So we're not for a moment saying don't post.

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Speaker 3: It's just that you need to take a moment to

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Speaker 3: work out are you're posting safely. So I think it'd

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Speaker 3: be really a poor message from law enforcement to come

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Speaker 3: out to say no, no, no, don't take photos of

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Speaker 3: your kids, don't share those moments with people in your life.

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Speaker 3: But there are ways to do it that are much

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Speaker 3: more safe than what we frequently see. So we can

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Speaker 3: talk about it from a law enforcement perspective to say,

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Speaker 3: in two key areas of what we see that's quite concerning.

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Speaker 3: One is that too there's too much information in the

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Speaker 3: imagery that allows a young person or indeed their family

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Speaker 3: to be groomed for sexual purposes. So that's one really

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Speaker 3: concerning aspect. The other thing is that we know when

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Speaker 3: we see devices from offenders, which we do, you know,

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Speaker 3: every week in Australia, we see these otherwise innocent images

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Speaker 3: ending up in the collection of online child sexual offenders.

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Speaker 3: So there's kind of two key things going on there.

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Speaker 3: One is that the information that's contained within those images

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Speaker 3: is used as leverage to pretend that they actually know

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Speaker 3: the child in more detail and know more details about

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Speaker 3: them than is otherwise safe. And then the other aspect

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Speaker 3: is the fact that you don't know where these images

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Speaker 3: are ending up depending on how they've been shared. So

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Speaker 3: we're not saying don't post, just think about how you're posting.

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Speaker 2: I'd like to talk about the how to post safely discussion.

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Speaker 2: In just a sec I'm hearing what you're saying. I

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Speaker 2: talk to a lot of parents day in and day out.

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Speaker 2: I talked to school teachers day in and day out.

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Speaker 2: I've got my own six kids, obviously, and while I

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Speaker 2: read about it in the news, hear about it. It's

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Speaker 2: one of those things that happens to other people. It's

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Speaker 2: so far removed from the interactions that I have with

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Speaker 2: every day mums and dads that I'm interacting with on

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Speaker 2: a day to day basis. This sort of stuff so rarely,

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Speaker 2: so infrequently comes across my path. I feel uncomfortable saying

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Speaker 2: it to you, because obviously, your experience tells you this

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Speaker 2: is a big deal. But I kind of, as I

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Speaker 2: put myself into the mindset of every day mums and

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Speaker 2: dads who have listened to this conversation, I still kind

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Speaker 2: of resist. It feels like it's so extra. It's like

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Speaker 2: we're asking so much. Are there really that many depraved,

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Speaker 2: warped crazies? I mean, I know, even I'm asking the question,

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Speaker 2: what you're going to say, Yes, there are, But it

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Speaker 2: seems so improbable to me that there are that many

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Speaker 2: people who are out there who are mining online social

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Speaker 2: media platforms for images of my kids, or your kids,

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Speaker 2: or whoever's listened to the podcast right now, for their kids.

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Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: It just seems so incredible. It seems so far fetched

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Speaker 2: that this is such a big deal. How much does

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Speaker 2: this really happen?

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Speaker 3: Well, it's just one of the many tools that an

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Speaker 3: online groomer or an offender might use. So, and we've

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Speaker 3: spoken in the past, we talk about sexual extortion. This

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Speaker 3: is one of the tactics that sexual extorters would use

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Speaker 3: to say, oh, you know, you know me, I'm a

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Speaker 3: friend of a friend, I also go to school X.

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Speaker 3: So they've got that key piece of information that they

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Speaker 3: can actually utilize to get through the otherwise barrier that

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Speaker 3: they would be putting up to say that. Hang on, man,

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Speaker 3: actually I don't know you, but they've given a key

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Speaker 3: piece of information. Oh hang on it, they know what

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Speaker 3: school I go to? Ah, right, and in a big

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Speaker 3: school to make out that you're a friend of a

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Speaker 3: friend that's legitimate. Potentially for a young person and their

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Speaker 3: thought processes, that's a form of social engineering. So unfortunately, yes,

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Speaker 3: we do see it in a variety of different grooming

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Speaker 3: and extortion type circumstances. Additionally, we absolutely see a lot

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Speaker 3: of kids in school uniforms in the collections. And as

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Speaker 3: you might appreciate, over the years when we've been seizing devices,

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Speaker 3: the amount of data and the amount of images of

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Speaker 3: that actually equates to just gets bigger and bigger and bigger.

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Speaker 3: And we don't want to necessarily see all of these

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Speaker 3: what we might call innocent images ending up in these

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Speaker 3: collections because it's hard to know why they're in there,

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Speaker 3: what has the offended done with those images, how have

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Speaker 3: they interacted with them, and why would they even want

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Speaker 3: them to be in there, And we've got no idea

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Speaker 3: how they ended up there necessarily, and it might have

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Speaker 3: been due to just poor security on behalf of the

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Speaker 3: young person themselves or maybe the adult.

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Speaker 2: I really appreciate you being patient with me in me

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Speaker 2: asking that question, but I can't help but think that

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Speaker 2: it's one of those things that people must be rolling

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Speaker 2: their eyes about. At least a portion of the population,

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Speaker 2: we'll be rolling their eyes about and saying, oh, for

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Speaker 2: goodness sakes, we have to be scared of everything. We

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Speaker 2: can not just post a picture of my kids. So

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Speaker 2: let's move to the practical realities. Then if there are

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Speaker 2: and of course I take you at your word on this,

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Speaker 2: I absolutely believe you if there are bad actors out

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Speaker 2: there who have wicked and evil intentions in terms of

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Speaker 2: the way that they might interact either with our children

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Speaker 2: or just imagery of our children online, but we still

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Speaker 2: want to share that photo with the grandparents, or with

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Speaker 2: the artists and uncles, or with our friends circle on

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Speaker 2: social media platforms.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it.

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Speaker 2: Feels like we should have that right, We should be

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Speaker 2: able to do that and do so in a way

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Speaker 2: that doesn't put our children or our families at risk.

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Speaker 1: What kind of advice does.

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Speaker 2: The Australian centertivecount a child exploitation ACE in the Austraiine

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Speaker 2: Federal Police. What kind of advice do you give to

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Speaker 2: parents so that they can do so safely.

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Speaker 3: It's really not all that complex. What our message here is.

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Speaker 3: It's about urging parents who want to share those images

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Speaker 3: and we understand parents will want to do that, and

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Speaker 3: that's one of the key benefits in these sorts of

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Speaker 3: social media platforms is to share, just make sure they

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Speaker 3: have appropriate privacy settings in place. That's allways suggesting, so

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Speaker 3: you know, you should only share those images with people

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Speaker 3: that you know and trust. We would ideally suggest that parents,

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Speaker 3: if they want to share anything on their own social

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Speaker 3: media platforms that they actually know everybody that they're friends with,

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Speaker 3: are they artificially creating a vulnerbound ability because they have

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Speaker 3: friends that I actually know in the real world. So

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Speaker 3: this is an opportunity for parents to do a little

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Speaker 3: bit of a privacy checkup, and there are ways to

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Speaker 3: do that depending on what platform you're on, that are

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Speaker 3: pretty easy. We would just say, have a think about

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Speaker 3: who might actually need access to these children, and yes,

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Speaker 3: keep all of the family in there. That That's how

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Speaker 3: Facebook currently is really the space for that type of sharing.

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Speaker 3: This is why the teenagers have left that particular platform,

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Speaker 3: we know in droves because it's become that kind of

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Speaker 3: more family oriented and we have a lot of the

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Speaker 3: grandparents that have moved into that space, which is a

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Speaker 3: positive because I think, you know, that's one of the

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Speaker 3: real pro technology aspects that we can promote to say

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Speaker 3: that for some older Stonans it is actually a way

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Speaker 3: to keep connected, particularly if there's any tyranny of distance,

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Speaker 3: as we frequently experience in this country.

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Speaker 2: But it's also a protective factor, right, Like if you

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Speaker 2: know that your parents and your grandparents, and your aunties

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Speaker 2: and your uncles and all of your extended family are

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Speaker 2: on that platform, then you're much less likely to post things.

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Speaker 1: That could be incriminating. You're going to be on your

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Speaker 1: best behavior.

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Speaker 3: Yes, for the young people, that's not to say that

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Speaker 3: they're on other platforms that parents may or may not

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Speaker 3: know about and that they might be doing slightly riskier things.

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Speaker 3: But with the focus on parents, we feel that there's

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Speaker 3: an opportunity for parents to act as good role models.

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Speaker 3: So if parents are giving some thought to the type

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Speaker 3: of material and the online presence that they're responsible for curating,

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Speaker 3: then they're good role models for their children as well.

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Speaker 3: If young people grow up in that environment where parents

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Speaker 3: sharing absolutely everything, then it could be that young people

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Speaker 3: see that as quite normalized behavior and that there is

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Speaker 3: a risk where a young person won't necessarily do the

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Speaker 3: same sense checking and you know, showed the same level

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Speaker 3: of care when it comes to posting. So I think

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Speaker 3: it's part of a broader conversation in a family unit.

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Speaker 3: And it's also there's some ethical considerations here as well.

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Speaker 3: Do the kids themselves want to have their images shared?

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Speaker 3: And that's one question? And if kids knew that it

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Speaker 3: was only in a limited and controlled environment, then maybe

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Speaker 3: they're comfortable with that. But they themselves have a role

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Speaker 3: in this and maybe some voice. And the other question

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Speaker 3: that we sometimes ask of parents is what do you

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Speaker 3: seek the ethics are of sharing images on your profile

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Speaker 3: of other children? Do you seek the permission of other

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Speaker 3: parents to do that? You know, parents talking amongst each

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Speaker 3: other about the appropriateness of sharing those sorts of images,

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Speaker 3: So are they These are considerations and questions that I'm

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Speaker 3: not sure people are having those sorts of conversations generally.

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Speaker 2: While you were sharing those ideas, I just jumped into

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Speaker 2: my Facebook profile and attempted to just as a rehearsal

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Speaker 2: to see how easy this is. Just went to share

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Speaker 2: a picture of from one of my photo albums. And

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Speaker 2: when you jump into Facebook, all you have to do

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Speaker 2: is there's a button underneath your name. When you're creating

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Speaker 2: a post and it says who do you want to

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Speaker 2: share it with? So I've clicked on that, and I

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Speaker 2: can share it publicly with anyone on or off Facebook.

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Speaker 2: I can share it with my friends, or there's another

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Speaker 2: button close friends or friends accept or specific friends or

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Speaker 2: only me. And then there's custom audiences that you can create.

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Speaker 2: So I've got a handful of custom audiences in my

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Speaker 2: personal profile on Facebook, where if I'm sharing stuff that

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Speaker 2: is perhaps a little bit more personal, it only goes

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Speaker 2: to that really close group of people, where if it's

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Speaker 2: something more I don't know, ostentatious, then I can.

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Speaker 1: Share it a lot more publicly.

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Speaker 2: It's very very easy to do it, like you said,

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Speaker 2: but I'm going to guess that most of the time

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Speaker 2: many people are just popping it up there and pressing

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Speaker 2: the share button and out it goes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we think that might be happening. And even if

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Speaker 3: people are posting your friends only, they may have accepted

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Speaker 3: friendship requests a long time ago and they're not actually

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Speaker 3: really real well friends. So having a little think about

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Speaker 3: what does your friendship group actually look like? And do

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Speaker 3: you actually genuinely know everybody that you are friends with?

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Speaker 3: And do you know that that's where all of these

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Speaker 3: images are going of your child with or without their consent.

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Speaker 2: Detective Superintendent Jane Crossling from ACE, the Australian Center to

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Speaker 2: Counter Child Exploitation. Is there anything else that you think

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Speaker 2: parents really need to know about other than what we've

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Speaker 2: talked about That is, yes, it's okay to share, but

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Speaker 2: do it responsibly. Make sure you know who you're sharing

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Speaker 2: within how check those settings and check on permission, like

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Speaker 2: make sure that the people that you're sharing the images

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Speaker 2: of are cool with you sharing that. Is there anything

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Speaker 2: else that would be really important for parents to take

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Speaker 2: home from this conversation?

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Speaker 3: This is just part of a broader conversation that parents

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Speaker 3: need to have with children from the moment that a

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Speaker 3: child is going to start engaging the technology. So we

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Speaker 3: absolutely advocate for very very early conversations. Given children, you know,

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Speaker 3: at very very young ages start interacting with that technology,

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Speaker 3: that is the time to start having conversations about what

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Speaker 3: can that device do, who can they connect with when

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Speaker 3: they're on a device, what are the expectations around its usage.

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Speaker 3: We recommend that families consider the contracts that we've mentioned before,

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Speaker 3: where you can sit down as a family unit and

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Speaker 3: actually work out how technology is appropriately used in that

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Speaker 3: household from the moment a young person is actually getting

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Speaker 3: access to a device, and then having those conversations around

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Speaker 3: what does a trusted family member or adult look like

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Speaker 3: in the event that they do need to talk to somebody.

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Speaker 3: These are all parts of the holistic approach we would

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Speaker 3: want to take to online safety. Ensuring that there are

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Speaker 3: open doors and ongoing communications so that if something were

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Speaker 3: to go wrong, they would know to bring that problem

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Speaker 3: to the parent. Having a parent actually sit down and

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Speaker 3: look at their own settings, but also the settings of

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Speaker 3: any other technology that the young person is using as well.

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Speaker 3: Just having that engagement I think is really critical, and

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Speaker 3: that means also bringing the child in on the conversation

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Speaker 3: about what is getting shared. And you know, as a parent,

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Speaker 3: I realized, now I've posted some what I think of

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Speaker 3: funny images of my daughter and she's made reference years

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Speaker 3: later just sort of say, you know, you did never

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Speaker 3: checked with me, mum, And I realized, no, no, I

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Speaker 3: actually didn't, and yes it was only shared to friends,

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Speaker 3: But I realize now that I probably should have been

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Speaker 3: getting just a little bit more, you know, consent from

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Speaker 3: her and having that level of engagement. We talked about

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Speaker 3: safety messages, but we didn't talk about those sorts of

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Speaker 3: things as well. So I think, you know, the obvious

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Speaker 3: thing that we've been talking about is back to school,

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Speaker 3: but this is this goes beyond that, and the timing

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Speaker 3: of some of our messaging has been back to school,

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Speaker 3: but it doesn't just stop there. So the obvious message is,

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Speaker 3: you know, don't don't show school logos, don't stand in

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Speaker 3: front of your house with your street name or your

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Speaker 3: house number, don't stand in front of the school sign.

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Speaker 3: It just gives way too much information that makes it very,

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Speaker 3: very easy for a young person to be grammed. But

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Speaker 3: then the conversation can't just stop there. It has to

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Speaker 3: It has to be in every facet of their life,

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Speaker 3: when they're playing spot, when they're en after school activities

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Speaker 3: and things like that, every facet of their life. It

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Speaker 3: just needs to be an ongoing component in a much

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Speaker 3: more holistic way.

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Speaker 2: Really grateful for this conversation. Detective of Superintendent Jane Crossling

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Speaker 2: from this train and senator account a Child Exploitation or ACE.

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Speaker 2: All the resources for parents who want to know more

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Speaker 2: are at the ACE website. That's a triple C, dot gov,

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Speaker 2: dot A, you yes, and We'll linked to that in

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Speaker 2: the show notes. Jane, thank you for your pragmatic approach

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Speaker 2: to this, because I really thought for a moment that

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Speaker 2: you're going to say, stop sharing photos of your kids.

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Speaker 2: I love that you've said, do it, but do it

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Speaker 2: the right way, do it safely, and make sure that

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Speaker 2: you're protecting the interests of your child, and keep on

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Speaker 2: having those conversations. I look forward to having you back

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Speaker 2: on the podcast again. Look forward to that really soon.

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Speaker 2: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Roland from

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Speaker 2: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer, and for

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Speaker 2: more information about keeping your kids safe, check out the

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Speaker 2: ACE website or how to make you family happier. Please

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Speaker 2: visit this at happy families dot com dot a you

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Speaker 2: m