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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, there is so much research that shows that this

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Speaker 2: is important, and having dad's involvement is super important as well.

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Speaker 2: Having positive role models for your daughter matters an enormous

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Speaker 2: amount in terms of the decisions that she's going to make.

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Speaker 3: And now here's the scars of our show, My Mum

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Speaker 3: and Dad.

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Speaker 1: Hello, this is doctor.

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Speaker 2: Justin Colson, the founder of Happy Families dot com dot

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Speaker 2: a U and the pairing experts and co hosts behind

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Speaker 2: the TV show Parental Guidance on Channel nine. That TV show,

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Speaker 2: by the way, is still available on nine now on

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Speaker 2: catch up everywhere I've been traveling lately. I've been all

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Speaker 2: over the country over the last couple of weeks running

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Speaker 2: seminars and presentations and workshops for parents, and people keep

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Speaker 2: on saying love the show, And then everyone else in

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Speaker 2: the room says, can I still see it? And the

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Speaker 2: answer is yes, you can see it on Channel nine

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Speaker 2: nine now on the app on catchup, and it's worth watching.

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Speaker 2: I'm here today with the love with me, love of

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Speaker 2: my life, missus, Happy Families, Kylie Muns with our six children.

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Speaker 3: And Kylie just say I was the love of your life.

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Speaker 2: I tell you that all the time, and I just

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Speaker 2: said it on the podcast. Yes, yes, it just came out.

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Speaker 3: And I picked up a friend the other night and

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Speaker 3: you and I were talking and you said goodbye to me,

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Speaker 3: and you literally said those.

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Speaker 1: Words, did I You did? Okay?

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Speaker 3: And I hung up the phone, and she kind of

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Speaker 3: was quiet for a minute. She said, did he just

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Speaker 3: say that you were the love of his life?

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Speaker 1: Right? And I said, yeah, you just take it for granted,

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Speaker 1: don't you. Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what did she say? She didn't know that you're

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Speaker 2: going to mention this. No, she you didn't even tell

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Speaker 2: me this story, So what did she say?

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Speaker 3: She was like, oh, my gosh, that's amazing. That's so beautiful.

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Speaker 3: And then we started having it on the conversation. She said,

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Speaker 3: I'm still stuck back there were your husband said you're

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Speaker 3: in the love of his life.

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Speaker 1: You just take it for granted.

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Speaker 3: I don't take it for granted at all. But it

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Speaker 3: really took her by surprise.

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Speaker 2: Well, my hustle bit sad that you've shared that that

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Speaker 2: somebody would be so surprised that her husband would say

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Speaker 2: that to his wife, because I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'd probably say something like that thirty times

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Speaker 1: a day to you.

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Speaker 3: Well, we had this conversation before. But my registration number

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Speaker 3: on my car yes says bad Ass ye b d

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Speaker 3: A S And everyone thinks everyone thinks that.

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Speaker 2: It stands forn't believe you just said that, But it doesn't.

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Speaker 1: No, it doesn't.

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Speaker 3: And so I said to her, I said, that's just

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Speaker 3: like my number plate.

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Speaker 1: I said.

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Speaker 3: Everybody thinks that, you know, that's what it stands for.

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Speaker 3: I said, but it actually stands for a beautiful darling

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Speaker 3: angel sweetheart. And she looked at me and she said,

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Speaker 3: say that again. So I said to her again, And

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Speaker 3: she's actually using her fingers to.

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Speaker 1: Go be for beautiful deep.

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Speaker 3: It's all out. And she said, and he calls you that,

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Speaker 3: And I said, yeah, every time I answer, every time

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Speaker 3: I answer the phone. And yeah again she was just like, Wow,

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Speaker 3: aren't you lucky? Like it was a really big deal

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Speaker 3: to her.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. See, this is making me feel good. This is

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Speaker 1: giving me a big egat booster. And now it's part.

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Speaker 2: Now We've got like we get about three million downloads

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Speaker 2: a year on this podcast, and all of those people

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Speaker 2: are now hearing how crazy I'm about you and I

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Speaker 2: think that is fabulous. Now, that's not what this podcast

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Speaker 2: is about, though. This is a podcast that is about

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Speaker 2: kids and girlfriends and boyfriends, particularly in sort of the mid.

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Speaker 1: To late primary school years.

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Speaker 3: We suggest it actually is a wonderful preface.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it is because in order to.

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Speaker 3: Have the kind of relationship that we have, the things

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Speaker 3: that we talk about today are really foundational. There are

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Speaker 3: so important.

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Speaker 2: Before we dive into this podcast, though, we do need

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Speaker 2: to give you a content warning. We're going to talk

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Speaker 2: about some pretty significant issues when it comes to themes

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Speaker 2: related to intimacy. Parental guidance is definitely recommended. This is

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Speaker 2: a mature content, mature audience discussion that we're going to

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Speaker 2: be having around kids and what's happening in the playground

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Speaker 2: when it comes to their love interests. So, with that

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Speaker 2: warning offered, let's answer our listener question, which.

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Speaker 3: Is Kate has actually asked My husband and I are

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Speaker 3: hoping that you could offer some advice with our ten

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Speaker 3: year old daughter. She's in year five and we've recently

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Speaker 3: discovered that she has a friend who is a boy

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Speaker 3: who is now being labeled as her boyfriend. They send

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Speaker 3: messages to one another and those messages have escalated in

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Speaker 3: the last couple of weeks to lots of lip emojis,

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Speaker 3: hard emojis, and those three words I love you. The

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Speaker 3: boy has also asked our daughter what more she would

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Speaker 3: like with the relationship that they have. She has said

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Speaker 3: that it would be nice if they could talk to

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Speaker 3: each other at school. He would like to kiss her,

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Speaker 3: to hug her, and to take her to the movies.

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Speaker 3: They are ten. Our question to you is is this

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Speaker 3: age appropriate? Should we intervene and what is the best

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Speaker 3: way for us to approach this with her?

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Speaker 2: Okay, I'm going to put you on the spot and

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Speaker 2: ask you a question that you might not want to answer.

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Speaker 2: But how old were you when you had your first kiss?

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Speaker 1: Well?

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Speaker 3: First kiss? It was on the cheek, right. This is

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Speaker 3: a bit of a theme in my life because our

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Speaker 3: first kiss was on the cheek, as it was. But

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Speaker 3: I was ten.

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Speaker 1: I yeah.

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Speaker 3: We were about to leave from New Zealand to move

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Speaker 3: to Australia. My grandfather had had a heart attack and

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Speaker 3: so we actually relocated so we could take care of him, right,

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Speaker 3: And I was heartbroken because the boy that I liked,

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Speaker 3: he was a few years older than me. But I

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Speaker 3: had to tell him that I was leaving and it

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Speaker 3: felt like we were breaking up.

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Speaker 2: Forever and you weren't even boyfriend a girl friend, weren't

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Speaker 2: even boyfriend, but this was it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So I sat down with him, I'm.

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Speaker 1: So sorry you ended up with second place with me.

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Speaker 3: Our parents were youth leaders at the time, and so

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Speaker 3: I was with him at the youth group that night

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Speaker 3: and I told him that we were leaving it and

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Speaker 3: I was an absolute mess. I was sobbing. It was

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Speaker 3: a really big deal. And he gave me a little

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Speaker 3: kiss on the.

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Speaker 1: Cheek, really with consensual like did he ask?

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Speaker 3: I don't think he asked, but I was really happy

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Speaker 3: for him.

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Speaker 2: I'm looking at the ground on your face and I'm

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Speaker 2: feeling a little bit insecure right now. Okay, so let's

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Speaker 2: let's get to the guts of Kate's email.

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Speaker 1: Is it okay?

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Speaker 2: You can put me in the spot, but you're not

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Speaker 2: going to tell oh, you beat me by years, You

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Speaker 2: beat me by years. I think I would have been

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Speaker 2: thirteen or fourteen before I had my first kiss. But

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Speaker 2: it wasn't on the cheek, was it?

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Speaker 1: Yes, it actually was.

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Speaker 2: I was on a surfing trip to a place called

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Speaker 2: Mungo Brush on the New South Wales sort of mid

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Speaker 2: North coast, and there were some girls camping nearby with

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Speaker 2: their family, and one of my mates was just crazy

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Speaker 2: about these girls and got into a big argument with

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Speaker 2: them about how they wouldn't kiss him because they were frigid,

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Speaker 2: because that's what you used to say when you're that age,

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Speaker 2: and they said, not frigid at all, And then they

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Speaker 2: came over and one of them planted a big kiss

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Speaker 2: on my cheek.

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Speaker 3: Oh, so was that consensual?

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Speaker 2: I had no idea that it was coming, but I

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Speaker 2: was very happy she did it, especially since he didn't

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Speaker 2: get one.

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Speaker 1: But she never gave me anymore. That was it.

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Speaker 3: Well, if it makes you feel any better, my first

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Speaker 3: real kiss didnt happen til I was seventeen.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, yeah, let's move on.

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Speaker 2: So I want to answer Kate's question and talk about

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Speaker 2: a couple of things that are happening right now when

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Speaker 2: it came to kids in primary school grades sort of four,

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Speaker 2: five and six. Everywhere that I go as I'm giving talks,

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Speaker 2: whether it's in New South Wales, Queensland, Victorious South Australia,

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Speaker 2: the regional centers. I mean, I've been in Perth recently.

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Speaker 2: No matter where I go. One of the questions that

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Speaker 2: I ask the school principles is to one of the

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Speaker 2: biggest challenges that you're dealing with right now. Overwhelmingly they

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Speaker 2: say screens. Screens are a huge issue, And when I

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Speaker 2: ask for more information, they say things like, mainly boys,

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Speaker 2: but kids generally sharing explicit content, sharing pornography, and sharing

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Speaker 2: memes and liking and promoting and encouraging those memes and

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Speaker 2: raising the stakes with that sort of stuff. The more

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Speaker 2: we talk about it, the more I'm seeing a pattern

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Speaker 2: of behavior, and that is that it's primarily the boys

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Speaker 2: that are doing it, and there's some sort of status

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Speaker 2: associated with it. There's some sort of societal pressure that

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Speaker 2: they're applying to one another in the playground. It's like

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Speaker 2: there's this boy code, something that's a Harvard research called

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Speaker 2: Bill Pollock. William Pollck wrote about years ago. There's this

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Speaker 2: boy code that's pushing them to up the stakes. So

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Speaker 2: as a response to that, what's also happening is that

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Speaker 2: because boys are being exposed to explicit content, they're showing

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Speaker 2: increased levels of pressure. And because of the pressure in

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Speaker 2: the playground to be a certain kind of boy, they

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Speaker 2: are putting more pressure on girls to be a lot

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Speaker 2: more serious in their relationships than we might be comfortable

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Speaker 2: with as parents. But I want to stress even though

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Speaker 2: this is the consistent conversation that school principals are having

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Speaker 2: with me and that school counselors are having with me,

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Speaker 2: I don't think that it's a breathtakingly big departure from

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Speaker 2: what was happening when we were growing up. And the

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Speaker 2: reason that I say that is because when I was

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Speaker 2: growing up and going to Niagara Park Public School as

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Speaker 2: a grade five kid, that's when I was first introduced

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Speaker 2: to the idea. And this is where if your children

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Speaker 2: are listening, you definitely want to press pause. I was

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Speaker 2: introduced to the idea of fingering. I didn't know what

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Speaker 2: it was, I wasn't involved in it, but I found out.

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Speaker 2: I discovered that some of the year five and the

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Speaker 2: year six kids were going down to the back of

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Speaker 2: the oval where there were no teachers, and they were

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Speaker 2: engaging in that kind of really yeah yeah yeah in

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Speaker 2: primary school. So this is back in the nineteen eighties,

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Speaker 2: mid nineteen eighties, and as I talked to, as I said,

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Speaker 2: school leaders, this kind of behavior is still happening. In fact,

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Speaker 2: I think the behavior is probably happening a little bit less,

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Speaker 2: but I also think that there's greater knowledge and more

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Speaker 2: pressure now. I don't have data to support that. I

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Speaker 2: just want to emphasize this stuff was happening in primary

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Speaker 2: school in the mid to late years of primary school,

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Speaker 2: and it has been happening for decades.

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Speaker 3: I know that by the time I was in high school,

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Speaker 3: I was definitely associating with girls who were sex active

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Speaker 3: with their boyfriends.

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Speaker 1: Who were you should be a couple of years older,

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Speaker 1: older than them.

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Speaker 3: But I think that for the most part, I lived

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Speaker 3: a pretty sheltered life, in part predominantly, I would suggest,

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Speaker 3: because of the way my parents sheltered me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is this is one of the critical

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Speaker 2: things we've got, Kate, who's saying, I want to I

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Speaker 2: want to show to my child. I want to keep

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Speaker 2: this safe.

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Speaker 3: So do you think it's appropriate for a ten year

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Speaker 3: old boy to be asking a girl if he can

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Speaker 3: hug and kiss her.

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Speaker 2: I think that it's developmentally appropriate, but there's got to

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Speaker 2: be Do you really.

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Speaker 3: Think it's a developmentally appropriate that he would ask that.

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Speaker 3: I don't. I actually don't. I don't think as a

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Speaker 3: ten year old that's a question that you would be asking.

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Speaker 3: I remember, I do remember. I would have been maybe seven,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to say seven. There was a boy in

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Speaker 3: the street and he said to me, I'll show you

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Speaker 3: mine if you show me yours. Yes, I do remember

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Speaker 3: that kind of dialogue. But to actually be physically connected, intimate,

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Speaker 3: I don't think I had those kinds Like literally, I

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Speaker 3: was with a boy who was a few years older.

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Speaker 3: It's a totally different scenario than two ten year olds.

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Speaker 2: So the reasons I paused is because while I think

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Speaker 2: that it's developmentally appropriate, what I was trying to find

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Speaker 2: the words for was but it depends on what kind

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Speaker 2: of hugen kiss, what kind of relationship they're actually looking for,

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Speaker 2: and where the inspiration for that is coming. We know

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Speaker 2: that sexual identity begins somewhere around about three or four.

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Speaker 2: That's when kids start to recognize what a boy is

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Speaker 2: and what a girl is, and they start to identify

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Speaker 2: with the expectations, the social norms, the roles that they

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Speaker 2: have been socialized into or are being socialized into. We

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Speaker 2: also know that around about the age of six, seven, eight,

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Speaker 2: those crisis really start to kick up. I mean they're

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Speaker 2: really quite strong, even in those early to mid primary

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Speaker 2: school years, and we know that kids start to get

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Speaker 2: interested in having some kind of physical contact, usually in

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Speaker 2: a platonic kind of way, but there's an interest in exploration,

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Speaker 2: even if it hasn't come from the pornography inspired context.

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Speaker 1: Somewhere around about the age of nine, ten eleven, that's

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Speaker 1: not an unusual thing.

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Speaker 3: I'm thinking about the kinds of TV shows that the

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Speaker 3: kids are watching at those ages, and their teenage drama.

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Speaker 1: So twins are watching the teens.

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Speaker 3: Literally watching the teens and watching those crushes unfold on

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Speaker 3: the screen and watching their first kiss and how they

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Speaker 3: ruminate over that, and so it kind of grooms them

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Speaker 3: in some ways, doesn't it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I guess grooms on models models is probably

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Speaker 2: a better word for it. I think Michelle Mitchell's book

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Speaker 2: Tweens is actually quite useful here for Kate and other

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Speaker 2: people who are wondering about what to do. But there's

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Speaker 2: one more thing that I want to talk about before

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Speaker 2: we answer specifically the three things that I think every

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Speaker 2: parent needs to do when you're worried about a childhood

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Speaker 2: crush getting too serious. There's one more thing in Kate's

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Speaker 2: email where she says that they're sending each other a

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Speaker 2: up ogies, and my concern is what are they doing

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Speaker 2: on the phone. See, I've got a really big be

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Speaker 2: in my bonnet about kids getting access to smartphones way

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Speaker 2: too early. The more access they have, especially when it's

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Speaker 2: unfettered access, they can do whatever they want. The more

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Speaker 2: access they have to the device, the more access they

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Speaker 2: have to the relationship, and the more access they have

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Speaker 2: to the relationship, the more it intensifies. And there's something

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Speaker 2: about the depersonalization of the phone, where you've got the

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Speaker 2: distance between you that reduces inhibitions and increases the bravery,

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Speaker 2: the requests, the expectations in that relationship. The distance kind

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Speaker 2: of makes it feel safer to say things, do things,

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Speaker 2: send things that you wouldn't in person.

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Speaker 3: Well, I guess reading between the lines, you've got a

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Speaker 3: kid who's asking a question and she's saying I'd like

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Speaker 3: to talk yes school. So I'm going to suggest that

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Speaker 3: there's actually more communication going on via a screen then

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Speaker 3: there is actually in person.

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Speaker 2: That's a concern that I have, and that's why I

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Speaker 2: wanted to raise the phone. We're sending each other emojis,

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Speaker 2: which is I know that it's how kids communicate, but

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Speaker 2: it's not deep, high quality communication. And this brings me

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Speaker 2: to the conversation that I think answers the question and

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Speaker 2: where I'm going to spend two minutes.

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Speaker 1: On it, because there's not a whole lot to say.

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Speaker 2: Number One, you need to talk as a parent with

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Speaker 2: your children early and often when it comes to issues

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Speaker 2: of intimacy, when it comes to issues of consent, when

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Speaker 2: it comes to issues of safety, when it comes to

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Speaker 2: issues of relationships, talking to them about what a boyfriend is,

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Speaker 2: or what a girlfriend is, or what a romantic interest

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Speaker 2: is and what that means at different ages.

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Speaker 3: I think before you even get to that, you need

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Speaker 3: to understand what they think it is.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's part of the conversation. Yes, I talk to

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Speaker 1: I think.

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Speaker 3: It's really important that we understand before we go in

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Speaker 3: with guns blazing. We actually find out what does it

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Speaker 3: mean to be a boyfriend?

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Speaker 2: And Kate's done that, like you can hear says what

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Speaker 2: do you want? And her daughter says, well, I want

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Speaker 2: to talk at school, and what does he want? He

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Speaker 2: wants hugging and kissing and movie dates. So he's just

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Speaker 2: pushing for stuff that doesn't that I wouldn't want to

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Speaker 2: see happening realistically, until fifteen or sixteen, he's just four

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Speaker 2: or five years ahead of the curve, six yearshead of

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Speaker 2: the curve. But having that conversation with your kids and

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Speaker 2: saying what do you think is appropriate, inviting them into

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Speaker 2: the conversation, explore what they think, explain what you think

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Speaker 2: and why, and then develop solutions together. It's the standard

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Speaker 2: three is of effective discipline. To me, that's going to

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Speaker 2: be your most important protective factor being involved. There is

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Speaker 2: so much research that shows that this is important. And

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Speaker 2: having dad's involvement is super important as well. Having positive

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Speaker 2: role models for your daughter matters an enormous amount in

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Speaker 2: terms of the decisions that she's going to make.

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Speaker 3: Not only that, just having an inside to the way

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00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,960
Speaker 3: a male brain works as well, I think is really important.

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Speaker 3: And I remember Mum and Dad sitting me down and

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Speaker 3: telling me about, you know, a boy's anatomy and how

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Speaker 3: it works and how it responds. And obviously it wasn't

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Speaker 3: until you and I were well and truly married that

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Speaker 3: it all started to click into place, and I was like, oh, oh,

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Speaker 3: they were right.

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Speaker 1: But I had no.

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Speaker 3: Idea the power that my body had on the way

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Speaker 3: your body responded at all, Like it didn't in my mind,

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Speaker 3: there was no correlation. And yet obviously once you're an

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Speaker 3: intimate relationship, you recognize and see just how responsive our

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Speaker 3: bodies are to one another. But I think for me

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Speaker 3: as a mum, and I guess because of the personal

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Speaker 3: journey that I've taken, I want to help my girls

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Speaker 3: understand why their body feels the way it feels, actually

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Speaker 3: unpack that because knowledge is power. Right, we have these emotions,

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Speaker 3: we have these feelings that surface in our bodies because

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Speaker 3: of the way we are responding to the person in

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Speaker 3: front of us, and it feels overwhelming, it feels scary,

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Speaker 3: and at times we feel like that means I must.

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Speaker 1: Have to act.

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Speaker 3: If I'm feeling this way, then that means I love him,

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00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:14,760
Speaker 3: or if I'm feeling that way, then that means that

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Speaker 3: I actually have to do something about it. But empowering

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Speaker 3: our girls to understand that they can feel this and

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Speaker 3: it's all normal and it's all natural, and yet it's

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Speaker 3: so important that they actually listen to what their body

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Speaker 3: is telling them.

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Speaker 1: So we didn't plan this, but that's my second key idea.

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Speaker 1: You've kind of incorporated that into the issue.

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Speaker 2: That the point that we need to talk and we

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Speaker 2: need to talk early and often we need to talk

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Speaker 2: about relationships. The second thing that I was going to say,

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Speaker 2: I guess, just to put a nice big highlighter through

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Speaker 2: what you've just said, is that we want to encourage

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Speaker 2: our kids, especially in this case, our daughters. They're more

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Speaker 2: likely to have the anxiety around this. Boys do tend

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Speaker 2: to be the accelerated. Girls do tend to be the break.

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Speaker 2: And the reason that they're the break is because the

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Speaker 2: costs for them, both socially but also physically, the cost

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Speaker 2: for them if this goes to far too fast are

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Speaker 2: substantial compared to the costs for a boy. And the

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00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:08,360
Speaker 2: anxiety that she feels is healthy and normal, and it's

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Speaker 2: an important signal to her that she needs to keep

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Speaker 2: this going as slowly as she can until the anxiety

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Speaker 2: goes away, because the anxiety only drops when she knows

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Speaker 2: she can absolutely trust this person. So the anxiety is

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00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,440
Speaker 2: high because there's a question of trust. Over time, as

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Speaker 2: he proves his trustworthiness, the anxiety drops off and then

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00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,920
Speaker 2: the relationship can build, and that's not going to happen

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Speaker 2: with a ten year old. The anxiety is there because

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Speaker 2: it's developmentally appropriate saying whoa breaks?

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Speaker 1: What's going on here.

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Speaker 3: For me, I think it's just so important for us

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Speaker 3: to help our children understand, and specifically our girls, their

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Speaker 3: worth and that it's not related to how a boy

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Speaker 3: feels about them.

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Speaker 1: Brilliant.

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Speaker 3: If they can understand that and recognize that what they

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Speaker 3: have them themselves, their person, their body, is so precious

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Speaker 3: and so valuable and it's only to be given to

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Speaker 3: the most trustworthy person, great, we're going to be doing

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Speaker 3: our girls a favor.

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Speaker 2: My last point is we want to teach our kids

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Speaker 2: to delay. Delay, delay, delay. There's simply no evidence that

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00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:13,040
Speaker 2: shows that starting these romantic relationships early ends up being

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00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:14,480
Speaker 2: beneficial in the long run.

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Speaker 1: It's better to wait full stop. End of story.

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Speaker 2: So if I was to pull this together, because we

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00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:24,240
Speaker 2: are absolutely completely beyond out of time, the kind of

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00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,919
Speaker 2: behavior that's being demonstrated here by this boy is pretty

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00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,520
Speaker 2: normal for boys that age. It's not ideal, but it

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00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,640
Speaker 2: is pretty normal, has been pretty normal for several decades.

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Speaker 2: It's not unusual, But I'm concerned that the inspiration for

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00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,080
Speaker 2: the behavior has changed over the last few decades, and

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00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:42,159
Speaker 2: there is a much darker side to it now than

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00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:44,879
Speaker 2: perhaps there was way back in the nineteen eighties. I

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00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,840
Speaker 2: could be wrong about that, but certainly that's my first concern.

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Speaker 2: Second concern telephone usage, like, just minimize the telephone usage,

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00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,520
Speaker 2: and there has to be time away. Unfortunately, the ever

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00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,239
Speaker 2: present nature of the phones means that the relationship chip

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00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:03,440
Speaker 2: is ever present. And then our big idea is number one,

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Speaker 2: talk early and off and number two listen to the

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00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,600
Speaker 2: anxiety and follow that because it's keeping you safe and healthy.

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00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,600
Speaker 2: And number three delayed, delayed delay, And your big point

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Speaker 2: that covers all of this is you're worth something regardless

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Speaker 2: of what a boy thinks about you. It's been really

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Speaker 2: nice to have this conversation. I hope that it's been helpful.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening. If you have feedback for us,

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00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,919
Speaker 2: podcasts at happy Families dot com dot you that's podcasts

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00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:26,879
Speaker 2: say with your questions.

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Speaker 1: We love getting your listener questions.

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