WEBVTT - Casual or permanent: which would you choose?

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<v Speaker 1>My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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<v Speaker 1>Bungelung Cargoton woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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<v Speaker 1>that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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<v Speaker 1>Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and torrest

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<v Speaker 1>Rate island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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<v Speaker 1>first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

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<v Speaker 2>Good morning and welcome to the Daily os It's Wednesday,

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<v Speaker 2>the twenty sixth of July.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm Zara Seidler, I'm Sam Kazlowski.

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<v Speaker 2>The federal government has announced plans to give eligible casual

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<v Speaker 2>workers a pathway to permanent employment.

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<v Speaker 1>Hundreds of thousands of casual workers across Australia.

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<v Speaker 4>Could soon be in line for similar benefits to those

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<v Speaker 4>in permanent positions. For people who want security, this gives

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<v Speaker 4>them a way to be able to do it, but.

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<v Speaker 2>Not everyone is stoked about the proposal.

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<v Speaker 4>There's already a statutory pathway to permanency for casual employees.

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<v Speaker 4>So what is tony Ber actually trying to do?

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<v Speaker 2>Will let you know what the government is trying to

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<v Speaker 2>achieve and by the opposition and some businesses are opposed

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<v Speaker 2>to the change. In today's Deep Dive, but first Sam

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<v Speaker 2>what's making headlines.

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<v Speaker 3>Two men have been charged with sexually touching festival goers

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<v Speaker 3>at Splendor in the Grass. A forty three year old

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<v Speaker 3>and forty year old were both charged and granted conditional bail.

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<v Speaker 3>Please said attendee safety at the Byron Bay Festival was

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<v Speaker 3>their number one priority over the weekend, describing crowds as

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<v Speaker 3>well behaved.

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<v Speaker 2>Overall, fifty percent of Australians are being targeted by scams

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<v Speaker 2>every week. That's according to new data from consumer group Choice.

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<v Speaker 2>The survey also found that nine out of ten people

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<v Speaker 2>have come across at least one suspected scam in the

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<v Speaker 2>past year. A recent h roable c report revealed that

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<v Speaker 2>Australians lost three point one billion dollars to scams last year.

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<v Speaker 2>That was up eighty percent from the year before.

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<v Speaker 3>TikTok has announced a new text only post function, as

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<v Speaker 3>the video stream app looks to compete with Twitter's ex

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<v Speaker 3>rebrand and Meta's recently launched platform Threads. The app says

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<v Speaker 3>the new feature will allow users another way to express themselves,

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<v Speaker 3>with the choice to post photos, videos, or text. We

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<v Speaker 3>spent our whole episode talking about threads. I'll put the

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<v Speaker 3>link in today's show notes.

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<v Speaker 2>And the good news the government has announced a twenty

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<v Speaker 2>million dollar boost for Olympic and Paralympic competitors ahead of

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<v Speaker 2>Paris twenty twenty four Paralympics. Australian President Jock O'Callahan said

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<v Speaker 2>the boost means Paralympic athletes can direct their focus to

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<v Speaker 2>training and qualifying for the games, quote, knowing they have

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<v Speaker 2>the backing of the nation behind them to get them there. Samuel, Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>what was your first casual job.

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<v Speaker 3>It was a summer job working for Waverley Council. How Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>I was sixteen.

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<v Speaker 2>That's undly you were trying to make it legal.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think I was sixteen. It was handing out

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<v Speaker 3>condoms for Waverley Council at These and South Beaches in Sydney.

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<v Speaker 3>Hadn't kissed a girl yet, but was heading out. They

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<v Speaker 3>came with lollipops as well, Zara, did you hand out

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<v Speaker 3>any contraceptives when you're a teenager?

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<v Speaker 2>Only inflatable for me? Seriously, I was handing out those

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<v Speaker 2>big flamingos that go in the I don't know. I

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<v Speaker 2>think they're a bit cheggy now, But there was definitely

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<v Speaker 2>a time and a place that everybody wanted to take

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<v Speaker 2>those to any body of water that they had access to.

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<v Speaker 3>Those like huge things.

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<v Speaker 2>So I don't think either of those two jobs were

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<v Speaker 2>going to ever lead to permanent jobs for us At

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<v Speaker 2>that time we were both students at school. But there

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<v Speaker 2>are a lot of Australian who are working casual jobs,

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<v Speaker 2>but they're working them with the frequency and the cadence

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<v Speaker 2>of what would otherwise be a permanent job.

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<v Speaker 3>That feels very familiar that kind of model. Yeah, We've

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<v Speaker 3>both had lots of friends over the years who've done

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<v Speaker 3>exactly that. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And so the government's proposal, and the reason why we're

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<v Speaker 2>talking about casual work today is that the government is

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<v Speaker 2>actually proposing that there should be a pathway for those

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<v Speaker 2>casual employees to become permanent employees. And it's garnered support

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<v Speaker 2>from the unions, but there's been a fair bit of

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<v Speaker 2>opposition from the Coalition and also from some industry groups.

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<v Speaker 3>So what would the changes actually do.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think before I go to what the proposed

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<v Speaker 2>change actually is, I think that we need to just

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<v Speaker 2>set out who we're talking about. As I said, we're

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<v Speaker 2>not talking about URI and those examples because we weren't

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<v Speaker 2>working five days a week in the same job, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>for months and month exactly. So just over a fifth

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<v Speaker 2>of all workers in Australia, so that's roughly two point

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<v Speaker 2>five million people are casual employees. Casuals are most common

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<v Speaker 2>in retail, in hospitality, agriculture and the arts industries. But

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<v Speaker 2>actually a third of casuals work full time hours.

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<v Speaker 3>That's higher than I thought it was.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So that's the demographic that the government is looking

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<v Speaker 2>at at the moment, and Employment Minister Tony Burke is

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<v Speaker 2>saying that this proposal is aimed at closing what he

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<v Speaker 2>calls a loophole that's leaving people stuck as casuals when

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<v Speaker 2>they're actually working permanent, regular hours. So to get back

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<v Speaker 2>to your question, the government's proposed changes would give around

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<v Speaker 2>eight hundred and fifty thousand eligible workers access to the

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<v Speaker 2>same entitlements that permanent employees receive. So when we think

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<v Speaker 2>about permanent employees, they get annual leave, they get sick leave,

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<v Speaker 2>they get careers leave, and they also get things like

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<v Speaker 2>a notice of termination.

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<v Speaker 3>Periods, so you can't get told you don't have a

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<v Speaker 3>job and not be able to come to work the

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<v Speaker 3>next day.

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<v Speaker 2>No, but that's what casual workers face, so they can

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<v Speaker 2>lose their employment without notice and Employment Minister Tony Burke

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<v Speaker 2>says that his proposal would actually provide security for casuals

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<v Speaker 2>who want it.

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<v Speaker 4>Your rent's not casual, your bills aren't casual. Paying for

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<v Speaker 4>the groceries or other members of the household, none of

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<v Speaker 4>those expenses are casual.

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<v Speaker 2>But the proposal is that everyone would be forced to

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<v Speaker 2>become a permanent employee. Employees would still be able to

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<v Speaker 2>make that choice.

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<v Speaker 3>You've just rattled off all those benefits to what happens

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<v Speaker 3>if you become a permanent employee, So why would someone

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<v Speaker 3>remain a casual employee.

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<v Speaker 2>Casuals often get an extra pay loading, which can be

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<v Speaker 2>around twenty five percent, to compensate for their lack of

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<v Speaker 2>job security and the lack of entitlements that we just

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<v Speaker 2>spoke about. Although I do think that it is important

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<v Speaker 2>to say not everyone does get that loading, and especially

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<v Speaker 2>not that full twenty five percent, and not all casuals

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<v Speaker 2>earn more than permanent employees with similar skills. Advocates have

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<v Speaker 2>actually argued that in some circumstances, despite that loading, some

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<v Speaker 2>casuals might still overall end up getting paid three to

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<v Speaker 2>four dollars less per hour than permanent employees with similar skills.

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<v Speaker 3>Zara put these changes in a bit of context for

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<v Speaker 3>me politically, why is the government making this move now?

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<v Speaker 2>So, until recently Australia didn't actually have a legal definition

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<v Speaker 2>of what casual employment actually was, and that changed after

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<v Speaker 2>there were two recent court cases. And in those court cases,

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<v Speaker 2>judges ruled that two employees who had consistent work arrangements

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<v Speaker 2>couldn't actually be considered casual and that they were entitled

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<v Speaker 2>to paid leave, so they were entitled to the same

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<v Speaker 2>thing that a permanent employee would be. So this prompted

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<v Speaker 2>the former Morrison government to create a legal definition in

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty one, which the Albanezi government claims led to

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<v Speaker 2>a loophole that means that not enough people are transitioning

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<v Speaker 2>from casual to permanent employment and that that pathway isn't

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<v Speaker 2>working as intended.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, So now the government's made this announcement, what's the

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<v Speaker 3>response been like.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's just been announced this week, but I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>straight off the bat, the Australian Council of Trade Unions,

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<v Speaker 2>who would naturally have some fair alignment with the Labor

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<v Speaker 2>Party welcomed the government's plans and said that it'll ensure

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<v Speaker 2>greater security for casual ACTU Secretary Sally McManus has said

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<v Speaker 2>in the past that too many casuals are casuals in

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<v Speaker 2>name only.

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<v Speaker 4>Surely, after two years of the pandemic, when we saw

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<v Speaker 4>essential workers who were classified as casuals doing essential work

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<v Speaker 4>day in day out, who did not even have sickly,

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<v Speaker 4>they deserve this.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, what about opposition to the policy, Well.

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<v Speaker 2>There's been political opposition and then there has been business

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<v Speaker 2>or employer opposition. So taking the business opposition first, the

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<v Speaker 2>Australian Industry Group, which represents employers so not employees, has

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<v Speaker 2>said that employers will be alarmed at what it called

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<v Speaker 2>a radical proposal, and it's said that the real risk

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<v Speaker 2>is that employees will be laid off. The opposition so

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<v Speaker 2>the Coalition accused the government of deliberately creating significant uncertainty

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<v Speaker 2>for both businesses and casual workers. Shadow Employment Minister Michaylia

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<v Speaker 2>Cash claimed the government's proposal would actually encourage businesses to

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<v Speaker 2>give casual fewer hours. So she's arguing that it would

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<v Speaker 2>be the opposite of an incentive for an employer, and

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<v Speaker 2>that that could lead to the layoff of casual workers.

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<v Speaker 2>Cash actually told TDA and I quote her here that

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<v Speaker 2>labor primarily opposes casual work because they find it more

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<v Speaker 2>difficult to unionize this workforce. So clearly lots of opposing

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<v Speaker 2>views on this, and I imagine that it'll come down

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<v Speaker 2>to the cross bench and where they fall on this

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<v Speaker 2>issue to see how it progresses through Parliament.

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<v Speaker 3>So we reported this story to our audience on Instagram

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<v Speaker 3>and in the comments section, there was some strong views

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<v Speaker 3>that were coming through what was kind of the sentiment

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<v Speaker 3>of the audience the.

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<v Speaker 2>Flavor Yeah, yeah, I mean I think that this is

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<v Speaker 2>definitely one that has our audience divided. I think on

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<v Speaker 2>the one hand, some people were saying this could help

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<v Speaker 2>people and casual workers. Someone said quote universities are notorious

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<v Speaker 2>for the casualization of their more recent staff. But there

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<v Speaker 2>are also a few comments from casual work who would

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<v Speaker 2>choose to stay casual. One person said the annual pay

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<v Speaker 2>is still so low that losing the loading might mean

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<v Speaker 2>I couldn't cover rent and bills. I think it's worth

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<v Speaker 2>repeating that your circumstance will dictate how you think about

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<v Speaker 2>this policy, because some casuals will get that loading others won't,

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<v Speaker 2>so it'll be really interesting to see how many people

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<v Speaker 2>take up this offer from the government if and when

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<v Speaker 2>it passes through Parliament.

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<v Speaker 3>That is all for today's podcast, but if you've got

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<v Speaker 3>make this a better experience for you. There's a link

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<v Speaker 3>in the show notes. Have a great day and we'll

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<v Speaker 3>speak to you tomorrow.