1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 2 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: Bunjelung calcotton woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges 3 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:10,800 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 4 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 5 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:17,279 Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the 6 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present. 7 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 2: Just a heads up before we start this episode, we're 8 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 2: going to discuss gambling and mental health. If you need support, 9 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 2: you can call Gambling Help on one eight hundred eight 10 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 2: five eight eight five eight, or you can call Lifeline 11 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:33,559 Speaker 2: on thirteen eleven fourteen. 12 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:36,919 Speaker 3: Good morning and welcome to the Daily os. Happy Friday. 13 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 3: It's the thirtieth of June. I'm Sam, I'm Nina. Advertisements 14 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 3: for online gambling are everywhere, especially in the world of sports. 15 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: Bet three six five, the world's favorite online sports paying company. 16 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 2: It couldn't be easier. Sports BET's bat was Mike's you 17 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 2: just gotch your eye money and run. 18 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 3: But now a parliamentary committee wants to ban all ads 19 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 3: for online gambling. It says these ads are damaging to 20 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 3: the community, but the gambling industry and even sports bodies 21 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 3: have a lot to lose. We'll tell you what you 22 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 3: need to know in today's Deep Dive, But first, Nina, 23 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:20,400 Speaker 3: what's making headlines this morning? 24 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 2: The new South Wales corruption watchdog has found that former 25 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 2: Premier Gladysbury Jicklian committed serious corrupt conduct and breached public trust. 26 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 2: AIKEAK didn't identify any conduct by Barry Jicklian which warranted 27 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 2: criminal prosecution. It did, however, recommend prosecution be considered against 28 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 2: former MP Daryl Maguire. And if you're confused about all 29 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 2: of this, go back and listen to yesterday's episode where 30 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 2: we explained it all in the Deep Dive. 31 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 3: Ben Robert Smith has agreed to pay the legal costs 32 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 3: of the three Australian newspapers he brought defamation proceedings against. 33 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 3: The prominent former Australian soldier was un successful in an 34 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 3: attempt to sue The Cydney Morning Herald, The Age and 35 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 3: The Canberra Times. The newspaper's legal fees could be in 36 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 3: the tens of millions of dollars. 37 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 2: At least seventy seven people have been arrested in France 38 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 2: amidst days of unrest and protests against local law enforcement. 39 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 2: It comes after police shot dead a seventeen year old boy. 40 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:27,079 Speaker 2: French President Emmanuel mccron described the shooting as unforgivable. 41 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 3: And some Friday good news for you. Four time Olympic 42 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 3: gold medalist Simone Biles will return to gymnastics later this year. 43 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 3: The American last competed at the Tokyo Olympics back in 44 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 3: twenty twenty one and stepped away to focus on her 45 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 3: mental health. Her return will be at the start of August. 46 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 3: A parliamentary committee has recommended a total ban on all 47 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 3: advertising for online gambling. This committee had a close look 48 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 3: at the harm online gambling was causing and found it 49 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,399 Speaker 3: was in their works wreaking havoc in Australian communities. 50 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 1: Now. 51 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:07,799 Speaker 3: Particular concern was this link between gambling and psychological harm 52 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 3: and even suicide. 53 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 2: How big exactly is the world of online gambling? 54 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:15,359 Speaker 3: Well, we're the world's biggest gamblers. We lose twenty five 55 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 3: billion dollars a year and online gambling accounts for a 56 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 3: growing share of these losses. Have a think about this. 57 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,959 Speaker 3: Almost half of Australian's surveyed in twenty twenty two placed 58 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 3: a bet on sports or racing, and three times as 59 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 3: many of us gamble online today compared to a decade ago. 60 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 2: What I think I struggle with as a non sports 61 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 2: fan is actually what this looks like at events in 62 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 2: the world. Can you paint a picture of how integrated 63 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 2: these betting sites and this betting promotion actually is. 64 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 3: Wherever you're watching sport, there is a presence, an omnipresent 65 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 3: presence of sports gambling ads around you. You know, if 66 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 3: you go into a live sports game, when you walk 67 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 3: into the stadium, there's often carts there where you can 68 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 3: place a bet, and then those screens that kind of 69 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 3: win around the stadium, they'll often have sports advertising on them. 70 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 3: You've got announcements of the odds on the screens. It's huge. Then, 71 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 3: if you're watching on the couch at home, you're constantly 72 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 3: updated by even commentators. Sometimes on the odds of the game. 73 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 3: They'll say things like, you know, we're bringing you this 74 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 3: halftime update courtesy of betting agency X, And they'll say, well, 75 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 3: this team's in front and they're paying a dollar ninety 76 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,160 Speaker 3: right now, so it might be worth placing a bet. 77 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 3: And then they always say, you know, their disclosures. Gamble 78 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 3: responsibly make sure you consider the impacts of this bet 79 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 3: before you place it. But there's absolutely no doubting that 80 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 3: sports betting is intertwined with Australian sport. 81 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 2: And so when the Parliamentary Committee started looking at this 82 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 2: world of sports betting and that advertising that promotes it, 83 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 2: what's really driving that investigation? What do they say the 84 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 2: risks are of this kind of prolific messaging. 85 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 3: Well, they seem to be anchoring their findings on this 86 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 3: idea that two thirds of those who gamble on sports 87 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 3: are at risk of gambling related harm and that includes 88 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 3: things like addiction, relationship breakdown and financial hardship. And it's 89 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 3: particularly young men who are at risk. Those who gamble 90 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 3: have a suicide risk four times greater than those who don't. 91 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 3: So when this Gambling Inquiry asked for submissions, there were 92 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 3: people with first hand experience of the impacts of gambling 93 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 3: who are writing in. There was one submission from a 94 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 3: man called Jeremy Ryan from Perth who wrote, not long 95 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,479 Speaker 3: after my sixteenth birthday, gambling took an unrelenting hold on 96 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 3: me and has continued to ruin and rule my life 97 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 3: for the past eleven years. He said, I can't watch television. 98 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 3: I can't watch sport, I can't go on social media, 99 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 3: I can't listen to the radio. It is truly, truly 100 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 3: astounding the stranglehold these evil and avaricious companies have on 101 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,040 Speaker 3: everyday Australians like myself. 102 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 2: It's crazy to think of someone getting started in all 103 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 2: of this at sixteen and then being inundated with messages 104 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 2: for the rest of your life. What rules currently exist 105 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 2: around this online gambling space and the way that they're promoted. 106 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 3: Well, according to the Committee, while there is regulation around 107 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 3: the advertising of online sports gambling, it's inconsistent. So for example, 108 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 3: rules are set out by a combination of federal and 109 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:17,840 Speaker 3: state and territory governments and self imposed gambling industry codes 110 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 3: of conduct. Now, in general, there are a few limitations 111 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 3: on what gambling platforms can offer. So there's one key regulation, 112 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,280 Speaker 3: which is no in game betting and on when they 113 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 3: can advertise. So there's a ban on sports betting advertisings 114 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,160 Speaker 3: during life play, but you're allowed before, after the game 115 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 3: and during breaks so in halftime. 116 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 2: So those are the rules that are currently in place. 117 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:43,239 Speaker 2: What reform did the committee call for in their recommendations. 118 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,840 Speaker 3: Well, amongst the several recommendations made by the committee. There 119 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 3: was a call for a total ban on all forms 120 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 3: of online gambling advertising and inducements. 121 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 2: And what is an inducement? I get an ad, but 122 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 2: what's the inducement. 123 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 3: Well, inducements are those special offers that are designed to 124 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 3: encourage betting. So think of things like a bonus or 125 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,679 Speaker 3: an early payout offer, or multis which is several bets 126 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,119 Speaker 3: grouped together with a higher potential winning, and even something 127 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 3: like a loyalty program. And these are things you hear 128 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 3: being promoted a lot. And the committee recommends phasing these 129 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 3: out over the next three years, but suggested an exemption 130 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 3: for dedicated racing channels and a temporary exemption for small 131 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 3: community radio broadcasters. 132 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 2: I think it's fair to assume the gambling industry is 133 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 2: not going to be stoked about these proposed reforms. What 134 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 2: have we heard so far? 135 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 3: No, of course they're not stoked. This impacts their bottom lines. 136 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 3: So the betting Industry Lobby group opposed the ban, and 137 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 3: they asked for caps on how many gambling ads can 138 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 3: be shown instead of this blanket ban, and in response 139 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 3: to that, the committee argued that partial bands could then 140 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 3: be easily avoided for example, when in sport gambling was 141 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 3: banned in twenty seventeen, and to give you a sense 142 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 3: of what that looked like, if you're watching live sport 143 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 3: during the game, there'd be those tickers at the bottom 144 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 3: of the screen that would tell you exactly what the 145 00:07:57,240 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 3: payouts could be or what the odds are in live time. 146 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 3: So those were banned in twenty seventeen, but we actually 147 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 3: saw an increase in sports betting after that because what 148 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 3: sports betting companies would do is they would buy up 149 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 3: more spots outside of the in play times, particularly halftime. 150 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 3: We've seen a big change to what halftime looks like 151 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 3: since that band was introduced. 152 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 2: In order for these reforms to come into effect, they 153 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 2: need to be introduced in past in parliament. Do they 154 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 2: have political support? 155 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 3: The minister responsible here is Michelle Rowland. She's responsible for 156 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 3: gambling regulation and she wouldn't give an indication whether she 157 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 3: supported the ban, but she did say the government would 158 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 3: consider the report and its recommendations in full. 159 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 2: What about sports bodies, because you've painted this picture of 160 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 2: how it integrated this advertising of gambling is in the 161 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:47,599 Speaker 2: sports world. How sports bodies themselves likely to be impacted 162 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 2: by potential reforms. 163 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 3: Well, they have a lot to lose, and we know 164 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 3: a lot more of than we did a couple of 165 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 3: weeks ago because of an investigation by four Corners which 166 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 3: revealed some really deep ties between the sporting bodies and 167 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 3: gambling organizations. And what this investigation found was that agreements 168 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 3: between sporting bodies, so we're talking here about like the 169 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 3: NRL or the AFL Cricket Australia, they can earn a 170 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 3: commission of up to seventeen point five percent of profits 171 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 3: from Australians gambling on their events. 172 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 2: That's huge. 173 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:19,439 Speaker 3: Yeah, So there's a bit of a kickpack there and 174 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 3: almost competing interests in sporting bodies getting large amounts of 175 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:28,199 Speaker 3: money for allowing online gambling to exist within their sport. 176 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 3: So to give you an example of how this actually 177 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 3: could work, according to the ABC's report, Football Australia gets 178 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 3: either one percent of every bet placed in Australia on 179 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 3: the soccer game or fifteen percent of the bookmakers profit. 180 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 2: So they're making money off that gambling, even if the 181 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 2: gambling companies aren't necessarily profiting exactly. 182 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 3: And that kind of gives you an understanding of how 183 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 3: these sporting bodies might be incentivized to push back on 184 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 3: banning ads for online gambling. 185 00:09:55,880 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 2: SAM as society moves to trying to separate gamblings from 186 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 2: sport and the experience of sport. Do you think that 187 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 2: it'll impact the way you and people in Australia consume 188 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 2: sport and enjoy sport. 189 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 3: I think about this a lot. What I've noticed with 190 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 3: sports gambling in the last couple of years is it 191 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:18,319 Speaker 3: is slowly moving from dominantly public spaces like actual events 192 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 3: and television broadcasts, the gambling itself, the ads for the 193 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 3: gambling services into more private spaces, and the ways that 194 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 3: some of the gambling companies are doing that is by 195 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 3: offering it to be a group activity. So the idea 196 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 3: that you can place bets with your mates and talk 197 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 3: about it and actually ride that win or loss together, 198 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 3: I think is really trying to socialize gambling. And so 199 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 3: I think what we can learn from that is that 200 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 3: even if this regulation does come through, we're still going 201 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 3: to see it exist on that kind of matship level. 202 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 2: So you're talking about this sense of community that exists 203 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 2: when everyone's supporting your team and they've got stakes in 204 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 2: the game because their money is now on whoever wins 205 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 2: or loses. Is there a way or can that exist 206 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 2: if people aren't gambling with money. 207 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:03,199 Speaker 3: I think it can and I've been involved in a 208 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 3: tipping competition with a big group of friends for many 209 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 3: many years now and no money changes hands, and it 210 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 3: still allows us to engage in that who's going to win, 211 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,079 Speaker 3: who's going to lose, how's your team going, who's winning 212 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,439 Speaker 3: in the table without there being money on the line. 213 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 2: If this episode brought up anything for you, you can call 214 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:24,439 Speaker 2: Gambling Help on one eight hundred eighty five eight eight 215 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 2: five eight, or you can call Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen. 216 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 3: Thanks for joining us on the Daily OS today. Have 217 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,719 Speaker 3: a great weekend, and if you enjoy this podcast, it 218 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:37,319 Speaker 3: would really help us if you left a review on Apple, 219 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 3: Spotify or wherever you're listening, and we'll speak to you 220 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 3: on Monday.