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Speaker 1: This is the Happy Famili's podcast. One of society's perennial problems.

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Speaker 1: One of the biggest challenges that parents face is kids

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Speaker 1: being upset at daycare drop off.

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Speaker 2: Today, we answer a tricky.

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Speaker 1: Question that involves what's going on in kids' brains when

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Speaker 1: we drop them off and they melt down?

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Speaker 2: And how is that different to cry it out?

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Speaker 1: Specifically, if crying it out is so bad for kids,

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Speaker 1: that isolation, that parental separation, how is that any different

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Speaker 1: to leaving bigger kids at daycare, preschool, kinder so that

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Speaker 1: they can have a day without you. That is coming

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Speaker 1: up in just a sec as well as some answers

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Speaker 1: for what to do around these separation challenges on the

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Speaker 1: Happy Familiess podcast Stay with us. Hello, Welcome to the

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Speaker 1: Happy Famili's podcast, Real Parenting Solutions. Every single day we

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Speaker 1: are Justin and Kylie calls and parents have six children.

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Speaker 1: I'm the author of a bunch of books, including I'm

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Speaker 1: Still Breathing, Size of Relief, after how Long, Kylie, After

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Speaker 1: Forever and ever and ever. I've handed in the Boys' Manuscript.

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Speaker 1: The Boys Book is now being edited.

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Speaker 2: At the publisher. Oh, and it feels so good.

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Speaker 3: I'm glad it feels good for you. I'm still kind

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Speaker 3: of holding my breath a little.

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Speaker 2: There's more work to come over. We're getting close.

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Speaker 1: We've got a publication date for sort of early to

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Speaker 1: mid next year as well.

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Speaker 2: Details on that soon.

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Speaker 1: But today, as we do every Tuesday on the pod,

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Speaker 1: we answer your tricky questions. If you have a tricky

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Speaker 1: question that you'd like to ask us, it doesn't really

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Speaker 1: matter what it's about. We'll pretty much talk about anything

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Speaker 1: at all. Just jump online to happy families dot com

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Speaker 1: dot you scroll down to where it says podcasts and

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Speaker 1: click the record button. It's a super simple system. You

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Speaker 1: literally push the button and start talking and we'll talk

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Speaker 1: about it all Happy families dot com dot au. If

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Speaker 1: you would like your question featured on the podcast, Kylie.

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Speaker 1: Today's question is a tough one from icy wa.

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Speaker 4: Hi daughter Justin. I'm Icy I'm from Basleton. We have

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Speaker 4: a three and a half year old son and a

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Speaker 4: nine months old daughter. I'm just wondering as if cryed

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Speaker 4: our sleep training is not appropriate for babies as they

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Speaker 4: feel abandoned. Wouldn't that be the same when I dropped

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Speaker 4: my son of childcare, having him crying, kicking and scream

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Speaker 4: mummy while watching me walk away from him. He go

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Speaker 4: there twice a week and he's still we feel same

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Speaker 4: to go, even he has been there for over a

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Speaker 4: year now. I often tell him beforehand, is there any

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Speaker 4: other way I can help him? Is it not good

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Speaker 4: for his mental development? Or should I just believe it's

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Speaker 4: got to be good for him as he can learn

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Speaker 4: how to socialize with other people.

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Speaker 2: I see.

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Speaker 1: It's such a tough one, and this is one of

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Speaker 1: those things that's been going on forever and ever and

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Speaker 1: ever since we've had childcare for our kids. Kids have

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Speaker 1: said but no, but no, I want to stay with mom.

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Speaker 1: I love the question, Carly. I'm going to throw it

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Speaker 1: strike to you. You've got a background in the child care.

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Speaker 1: You spent the first several years of our life together

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Speaker 1: working in that industry. When you hear this baby crying

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Speaker 1: it out versus three and a half year old dealing

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Speaker 1: with separation anxiety ically saying that the same things are different,

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Speaker 1: I certainly have some strong opinions here, and I think

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Speaker 1: we've got good evidence behind what I'm going to say.

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Speaker 1: But what's your initial impulse, your initial reaction?

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Speaker 3: It's not the same. It's definitely not the same. When

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Speaker 3: you think about a nine month old baby left in

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Speaker 3: a room or by themselves to cry it out, there's

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Speaker 3: no one there to support them through that process. You've

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Speaker 3: walked away and as far as they're concerned, you're not

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Speaker 3: coming back. Yeah yeah, yeah, compared to your three and

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Speaker 3: a half year old who you're dropping off that daycare

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Speaker 3: clearly in a place that you feel comfortable with, you

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Speaker 3: feel safe in. You've got carers who are taking care

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Speaker 3: of them, You've got others peers there who can help

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Speaker 3: rally around him, and he's got the support he needs

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Speaker 3: to work through the process.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so support networks are a critical difference there.

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Speaker 1: There are a couple of other things that I'm going

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Speaker 1: to step into from a developmental emotional perspective, a cognitive

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Speaker 1: perspective as well. The first is that a baby has

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Speaker 1: no concept whatsoever of the fact that there's time, there's routines,

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Speaker 1: there's schedules. They just think that they've been left alone,

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Speaker 1: whereas a three and a half year old does know

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Speaker 1: and you can explain again and again and again. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they'll be upset about it, but you can explain, here's

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Speaker 1: what's happening, here's what I'm doing. They do get it.

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Speaker 1: It's not they don't have the cognitive capacity of an

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Speaker 1: older child, but they do get that.

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Speaker 2: They understand I will be back later. Later is a thing.

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Speaker 1: It does exist, and we've got history. Every time I've

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Speaker 1: told you I'm coming back, I've come back. So from

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Speaker 1: a cognitive point of view, the big kid versus the

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Speaker 1: little kid, the three and a half year old versus

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Speaker 1: the six month old and the nine month old, it

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Speaker 1: is a significant difference. The other thing outside of your

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Speaker 1: comment about support networks and mine about cognitive differences is

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Speaker 1: emotional development, the ability to regulate your emotions. So emotion

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Speaker 1: regulation is really really poor in three year olds, but

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Speaker 1: it is in its early stages of development. You've got

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Speaker 1: a baby. They have no ability to regulate their emotions

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Speaker 1: at all. If they're feeling something, you know it. If

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Speaker 1: they're feeling isolated, scared, they've got a pee nappy, they

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Speaker 1: will let you know.

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Speaker 2: They don't regulate. They don't think.

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Speaker 1: Now it's not convenient, I'll just give mom and dad

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Speaker 1: another ten minutes. They just lose the plot right away

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Speaker 1: because they're uncomfortable or they need help. So with a three,

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Speaker 1: three and a half, four year old. They they want

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Speaker 1: your love, they want your security, and when they feel

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Speaker 1: like they're being deprived of it, they will lose the plot.

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Speaker 1: But Kylie, let me ask you this, and I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying this is ideal by any stretch, but when kids

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Speaker 1: would lose it after being dropped off at childcare when

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Speaker 1: you were working in centers, how many of them, as

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Speaker 1: a percentage continued to cry for another ten, twenty thirty

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Speaker 1: minutes or even all day.

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Speaker 3: So I can only remember one child in my training

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Speaker 3: days came from a different country so did not speak

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Speaker 3: the language oh wow, and was placed in care every

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Speaker 3: day and he literally cried from the time his parents

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Speaker 3: dropped him off to the time he was picked up.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so that's a really unusual one. But the norm

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Speaker 1: when a child is upset.

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Speaker 3: The norm would be maybe two three five minutes max.

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Speaker 3: Generally speaking, Mum and Dad walk out the door, they

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Speaker 3: have a big cuddle with Cara, and they get distracted. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and they go find something big and shining to play with, right,

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Speaker 3: And that would be general practice.

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Speaker 1: So that's my biggest response here to Icee is that, yeah,

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Speaker 1: separation hurts. I mean it as an adult when I

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Speaker 1: leave you in the morning to go off to work

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Speaker 1: or do what. I've got a home office. Even when

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Speaker 1: I'm working in the office, sometimes I don't want to

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Speaker 1: take the ten steps from the front door to the office.

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Speaker 2: Because I miss you. I want to be with you.

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Speaker 2: And so even as adults, we crave one another. We're

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Speaker 2: ultrasocial beings. We're supposed to be together. That's how we're

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Speaker 2: wirde precisely.

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Speaker 1: But if your child is recovering really quickly and then

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Speaker 1: adapting well for the remainder of the day, then I'm

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Speaker 1: just not that concerned about it. Am I a little

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Speaker 1: bit concerned about it? Yeah, it's it's not natural, it's

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Speaker 1: not normal. It's not how we've done things for the

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Speaker 1: entire history of the planet, across every culture. But it

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Speaker 1: is what we do now, and kids seem to adapt okay,

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Speaker 1: And we don't have any evidence that it's creating any

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Speaker 1: long term mental health challenges for our children. If your

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Speaker 1: children are going to have mental health challenges, it's much

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Speaker 1: likely to be a whole lot of other stuff that

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Speaker 1: happens at other points in their life, both both when

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Speaker 1: the young and when they're all But I don't think

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Speaker 1: this is the key criteria here.

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Speaker 3: So two key indicators to help you feel I guess

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Speaker 3: more at ease with your decision. Number one, the recognition

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Speaker 3: that after you leave, they calm down very quickly, they

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Speaker 3: get into their social networks and they engage in activities

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Speaker 3: throughout the day. And number two, how do they present

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Speaker 3: when you pick them up?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 3: Are they happy to see you?

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Speaker 2: Yes?

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Speaker 3: Or are they devastated? You know, if there's big emotions

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Speaker 3: around a pick up, well we.

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Speaker 1: Call that an ambivalent or an avoidant attachment style, and

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Speaker 1: that is a signal that there are concerns.

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Speaker 2: Good news really really uncommon.

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Speaker 3: So we would often drop off at one of our children.

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Speaker 3: She would lose the plot every year, but then by

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Speaker 3: the time I'd go and pick her up, I couldn't

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Speaker 3: get her to love. So that's a clear indicator that

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Speaker 3: while we don't love separating, once we're there, we're actually

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Speaker 3: so engaged and so enjoying and experienced and.

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Speaker 2: We don't want to separating again.

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Speaker 1: That's right at the other end of the day, even

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Speaker 1: though that is normal development, and there is an attachment

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Speaker 1: hierarchy riot like if your child has a choice between

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Speaker 1: usually it's mum at the top of the hierarchy. That's

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Speaker 1: quite normal, and dad can sometimes be offended by it,

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Speaker 1: but that's totally normal. Your child is clearly going to

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Speaker 1: choose you over the childcare center staff or over the

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Speaker 1: friends at the childcare center, because let's.

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Speaker 3: Be real, if they're not choosing you over the childcare stuff,

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Speaker 3: you're going to be devastated, which mum goes off. Great,

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Speaker 3: I'm glad you love them more than me.

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Speaker 2: All right.

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Speaker 1: After the break, we needed to tackle a couple of

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Speaker 1: the other questions that Icy has asked, specifically, if my

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Speaker 1: child is still upset like this after a year, is

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Speaker 1: that a problem? And secondly, will he ever learn how

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Speaker 1: to make this work? That's coming up in just a

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Speaker 1: sec on the Happy Families podcast Stay with.

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Speaker 5: Us today on The Happy Family's podcast, Answering tricky questions

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Speaker 5: this one childhood attachment.

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Speaker 1: Security, whether or not kids like or don't like being

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Speaker 1: dropped off at childcare, and should we do anything about it?

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Speaker 2: Kylie.

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Speaker 1: The second thing that Icee really zeroed in on was

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Speaker 1: I've been taking my child's to childcare for a year now.

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Speaker 1: Child is currently three and a half, so it started

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Speaker 1: at two and a half. Not happy, still having the

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Speaker 1: tantrums twice a week, this is just.

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Speaker 2: An ongoing dilemma. I'd love again your take before I

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Speaker 2: throw in my two cents.

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Speaker 3: So again, if we go back to those two key

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Speaker 3: factors after you leave, how is the child.

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Speaker 2: Responding, settling in or not yet?

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Speaker 3: If they're not settling in, then we actually do have

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Speaker 3: an issue. We've got a child who's distressed all day

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Speaker 3: and is not able to regulate at all. And then

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Speaker 3: the second thing is how are they coping at the

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Speaker 3: other end, So they would be my first two things

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Speaker 3: having conversations with care is finding out what's happening during

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Speaker 3: the day and then assessing the situation from there.

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Speaker 1: We haven't swapped notes here, but I've got pretty much

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Speaker 1: exactly the same thing written down. If there are ongoing problems,

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Speaker 1: this is what I say to I've had parents say, like,

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Speaker 1: my child doesn't like going to swimming lessons. We're having tantrums,

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Speaker 1: can't get him in the pool, can't get her in

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Speaker 1: the pool. It's usually a boy and there's all this

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Speaker 1: drama going on. And so my normal response to that

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Speaker 1: is take them out for six months, take them out

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Speaker 1: for a year, and help them to just sort of

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Speaker 1: grow up a bit. They learn how to emotionally regulate

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Speaker 1: better and then they will figure it out. Now with preschool,

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Speaker 1: you might not have that same level of privilege to

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Speaker 1: be able to have your child at home. Maybe you

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Speaker 1: need to work. The child has to be in care.

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Speaker 1: But to the degree that you can either change the environment,

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Speaker 1: change the tea, or take them out, that might be

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Speaker 1: something to consider. If there's daily distress all day every

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Speaker 1: day while they're in the center.

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Speaker 3: So Icy is asked whether or not he's going to

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Speaker 3: be able to learn to socialize with kids. That seems

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Speaker 3: to be her main motivator for having him in care.

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Speaker 3: I think so often we fall into this trapp as parents,

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Speaker 3: thinking if we don't socialize our children from an early age,

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Speaker 3: that they're going to struggle when it comes to school.

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Speaker 3: If we have a strong social network, if we have

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Speaker 3: a strong village around us, then socialization in a formalized

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Speaker 3: setting is actually not needed at all. Our children are

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Speaker 3: going to receive the socializing that they need through daily

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Speaker 3: interactions with friends and family. If we don't have that,

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Speaker 3: then our next step, instead of using childcare as the

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Speaker 3: socialization vehicle, is to create it. We become part of

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Speaker 3: a playgroup. We pick one or two families where we

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Speaker 3: see the kids actually have something in common and we say, hey,

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Speaker 3: would you like to catch up for morning tea? Would

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Speaker 3: you like to meet me at the park. It actually

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Speaker 3: takes a little bit more effort on our part, but

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Speaker 3: it is definitely an easier way for children who are

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Speaker 3: really struggling with separation anxiety.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the idea.

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Speaker 1: Alfiekne talks about what he calls the bagooty principle. Bagouty

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Speaker 1: is an acronym bg ut I better get used to it,

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Speaker 1: And a lot of parents use the bagooty principle to

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Speaker 1: get the kids to all kinds of things that are

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Speaker 1: really hard and horrible because at some point in the

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Speaker 1: future they're going to have to do it anyway, so

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Speaker 1: they might as well get used to it now. And childcare,

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Speaker 1: in some circumstances can be exactly that. If a child

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Speaker 1: doesn't have to be there, then why get them used

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Speaker 1: to it. They'll get used to it when they're five

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Speaker 1: and they have to go to big school.

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Speaker 3: So a couple of tips. If this is something that

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Speaker 3: you actually really need to continue doing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, if he's got to be at childcare and you're

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Speaker 1: just stuck with it, how do you minimize the distress.

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Speaker 3: Do you tell them before you go one hundred percent?

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Speaker 2: Tell me more bit on the fence on that one.

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Speaker 3: Don't ever surprise a kid.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, you don't want to say, guess what, we're

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Speaker 1: at kinder again today, that's right, Yeah, fair enough.

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Speaker 3: They're smart enough. They know what's going on. You're packing

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Speaker 3: their bag, you're putting their.

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Speaker 2: Shoes down this street.

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Speaker 3: We've done this before. Okay, so you actually the best

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Speaker 3: thing you can do. Kids at this age need consistency, routine,

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Speaker 3: and predictability. That's how their world feels safe. So it's

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Speaker 3: not a sometimes thing. We have to give them a

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Speaker 3: clear routine so that they know exactly what's happening. That's

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Speaker 3: the first thing. I know that that sounds a little

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Speaker 3: bit counterproductive for a kid who is anxious about leaving

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Speaker 3: his mum.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, is it going to spike my anxiety? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: So then the second thing is to find something, whether

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Speaker 3: it might be just a small small piece of fabric

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Speaker 3: or you don't want to take a toy because it

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Speaker 3: can get stolen or lost or broken, but something that

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Speaker 3: represents mum and him, something that he can take from

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Speaker 3: that's kind of like a comfort he's got that just

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Speaker 3: even if he keeps it in his pocket. There's a

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Speaker 3: beautiful book called The Kissing Hand by Audrey Penn, and

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Speaker 3: it just shares the experience of a mum kissing her

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Speaker 3: child's hand and getting him to kind of, you know,

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Speaker 3: wrap his fingers around it, and the acknowledgment that even

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Speaker 3: though she's not there, whenever he feels a little bit anxious,

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Speaker 3: that he can open his hand up and kind of

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Speaker 3: place it on his cheeker, on his heart and know

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Speaker 3: that Mom's there.

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Speaker 2: That is a big gully.

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Speaker 3: I like that finding opportunities to just not bubble wrap him,

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Speaker 3: but just scaffold him so that he knows, even telling

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Speaker 3: him and teaching him how to read the clock and

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Speaker 3: that you will be here at that time, and then

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Speaker 3: honoring that if it's three o'clock, you can't be three

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Speaker 3: or five, you have to be three o'clock. So those

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Speaker 3: few things will help him to recognize that not only

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Speaker 3: do you love him, that you're with him all day

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Speaker 3: even when he can't see you, but that you will

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Speaker 3: be back. Are definitely going to help.

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Speaker 1: And I'm just going to th one more in. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I've actually liked this podcast. Normally I am the voice.

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Speaker 1: Normally I am the expert. You've you've owned, You've dominated

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Speaker 1: this one. It's been so so great. But let me

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Speaker 1: throw one last one in, and that is give him

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Speaker 1: something to look forward to when he's going. So who

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Speaker 1: is he going to see? Who can he meet at

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Speaker 1: the front gate? Who is his favorite person? And can

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Speaker 1: they meet you in the car park so that they

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Speaker 1: can be excited to get out of the car together

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Speaker 1: and walk in together. Is there something that the childcare

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Speaker 1: teacher can greet him with or get him to do

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Speaker 1: straight away so that he's a distracted, be busy and

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Speaker 1: c making a meaningful contribution, something to look forward to, someone.

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Speaker 2: To be with. It makes his experience of being.

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Speaker 1: At childcare feel a lot more personally choiceful and therefore

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Speaker 1: easier to smooth that transition.

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Speaker 3: You've just said that, and it's made me think of

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Speaker 3: two things.

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Speaker 2: We're out of time. You're going to do it fast.

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Speaker 3: Don't linger when you drop him off.

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Speaker 2: Look at you being the expert and taking all the

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Speaker 2: time today.

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Speaker 3: If don't linger, don't linger. The longer you take to

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Speaker 3: say good by, the harder it is. This is again

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Speaker 3: counted intuitive, but you actually need to make it crisp,

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Speaker 3: concise and just.

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Speaker 2: Moves just like our podcasts crisp and concise.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but that will require you working really closely with

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Speaker 3: the caregiver, right, They need to be a part of

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Speaker 3: that process. It's a quick exchange. You leave, they take over.

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Speaker 3: And the last thing is you talk about having having

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Speaker 3: something to look forward to when you get there, having

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Speaker 3: a ritual that you do when you pick him up,

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Speaker 3: something that he gets to do with you and he

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Speaker 3: gets to look forward to it.

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Speaker 2: Baby Chinos could be a baby Chino.

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Speaker 3: It could be stopping off at the park. It could

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Speaker 3: be gonna give Grammar a hug. Like literally, it's just

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Speaker 3: about the same thing every time that lights him up.

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Speaker 3: He knows at the end of the day, I get

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Speaker 3: to do this and it excites him.

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Speaker 1: I see from Busso we really hope that we've answered

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Speaker 1: your question effectively and helpfully today. Thanks so much for

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Speaker 1: sending it through. You can send your tricky questions to

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Speaker 1: podcasts at happy families dot com dot You just send

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00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:01,720
Speaker 1: a voice note podcasts at Happy Families or visit us

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00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:03,600
Speaker 1: at happy families dot com dot I U scroll down

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00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:05,879
Speaker 1: to the podcast section, press the record button, then start

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00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:10,439
Speaker 1: talking another tricky question next Tuesday on the pod Tomorrow

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Speaker 1: on the podcast, Karna Savage, registered accredited practicing dietician talking

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Speaker 1: about neurodiversity and diet. How do we deal with kids

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Speaker 1: that have all kinds of fussiness and challenges around eating.

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Speaker 1: We're going to discuss that on the pod. The Happy

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Speaker 1: Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media.

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Speaker 1: Mimhammon's provides additional research, admin and other support and if

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Speaker 1: you'd like more info to make your family happier, especially

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Speaker 1: on topics like this, check out the webinar Little People,

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Speaker 1: Big Feelings online now at happy families dot com dot

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Speaker 1: you