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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: We are having incredible conversations this week on the Happy

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Speaker 1: Families Podcast, talking to people who may or may not

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Speaker 1: have done so well at school, but have made incredible

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Speaker 1: contributions to the world in spite of their lackluster in

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Speaker 1: some cases experiences when it comes to education. Now, it's

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Speaker 1: really important that we're not belittling education. Education matters so much,

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Speaker 1: but at this time of year, when we've got year

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Speaker 1: twelve students who are doing all their final exams are

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Speaker 1: about to do them or finishing them up, there is

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Speaker 1: just so much pressure on this grade, on this atar,

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Speaker 1: on whether or not we get into university and what

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Speaker 1: happens next. And the purpose of this week is to

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Speaker 1: say it's probably going to be okay. Research shows that

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Speaker 1: only around about twenty percent of adults who finish high

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Speaker 1: school with a plan stick to that plan. They end

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Speaker 1: up doing something that they didn't expect to do. Guests

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Speaker 1: that I'm speaking to, I'm not supposed to have favorites.

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Speaker 1: I'm supposed to love everybody the same, just like my kids.

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Speaker 1: But for years I've wanted to talk to the lady

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Speaker 1: that we're about to speak to. Her name is Susan Rogers,

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Speaker 1: and I'm going to read to you something that The

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Speaker 1: Guardian wrote about Susan Rodgers just a couple of years ago.

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Speaker 1: They said, Susan Rodgers is an extraordinary figure, a working

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Speaker 1: class autodidact who, as one of the tiny number of

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Speaker 1: female recording engineers in the US, ended up helping to

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Speaker 1: craft some of the greatest pop songs ever, from When

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Speaker 1: Doves Cry to Raspberry Beret, the Print Sessions, in short,

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Speaker 1: a further decade of work with the likes of David Byrne,

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Speaker 1: The ben Naked Ladies and Tricky before she finally graduated

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Speaker 1: from high school at forty four and then obtained a

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Speaker 1: PhD in music and psychology. Now, if that doesn't make

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Speaker 1: you curious about this story, nothing will. Doctor Susan Rogers

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Speaker 1: is the author of this is What It Sounds Like?

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Speaker 1: What the Music You Love Says about you? And she

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Speaker 1: joins me now on the Happy Families podcast, What a thrill.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for your generous kind offer to chat with me. Susan.

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Speaker 1: It's so good to have you here.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, justin it's so nice to be here. Thank

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Speaker 2: you for that kind introduction.

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Speaker 1: Tell me what you were like as a high school student.

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Speaker 2: I liked school, and I was bright, and I did well.

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Speaker 2: I had difficulties in my youth because my mother was

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Speaker 2: sick for many many years. She battled cancer as she

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Speaker 2: passed away when I was fourteen. I was also the

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Speaker 2: only girl at home. I have three younger brothers, so

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Speaker 2: I had adult responsibilities as a young age, which of

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Speaker 2: course quite naturally interfered with school. But I was good

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Speaker 2: at it. I liked it.

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Speaker 1: Okay. The interesting thing here is just highlighting that sometimes

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Speaker 1: you can have bright kids who don't end up doing

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Speaker 1: that well at school because of what's going on in

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Speaker 1: the context the environment. Things can be challenging. But you

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Speaker 1: didn't finish high school. What happened with your high school

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Speaker 1: career and your subsequent young adult experiences.

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Speaker 2: It was kind of every man for himself. After the

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Speaker 2: matriarch of our family, our mom, passed away, and it

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Speaker 2: seemed like maybe a good route for me would be

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Speaker 2: to just get married and be a blue collar worker

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Speaker 2: like my family was. That's what we do. So I

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Speaker 2: did get married to somebody who was just a few

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Speaker 2: years older. I was only seventeen, and it ended up

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Speaker 2: being a great thing because it was a terrible marriage.

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Speaker 2: If it had been a good marriage, I might have

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Speaker 2: been still in it. But it was a bad marriage,

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Speaker 2: and that allowed me to get out of it guilt free.

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Speaker 2: And then my life really began at age twenty one,

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Speaker 2: when I began pursuing the thing that I love.

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Speaker 1: I'm really interested about a little bit of detail here,

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Speaker 1: because this story, I think all hinges on. You're in

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Speaker 1: a bad marriage with somebody who treats you awfully. You've

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Speaker 1: got love of music, right, You're absolutely besotted by music,

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Speaker 1: and you want to go to a concert, as I recall,

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Speaker 1: and something happens around this concert. There's some rules that

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Speaker 1: he places on you, and everything kind of falls apart,

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Speaker 1: and this seems to be the catalyst that leads to

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Speaker 1: the marriage breakdown and you stepping into what you will

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Speaker 1: eventually do for fulfillment for the rest of your life.

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Speaker 1: Can you maybe spend two or three minutes just stepping

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Speaker 1: us through those fine grained details.

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Speaker 2: Yes. So I was maybe twenty years old at this time,

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Speaker 2: and I'd already been married for three years, and I

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Speaker 2: was a huge Led Zeppelin fan, and I with some

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Speaker 2: friends at work tickets to see led Zeppelin. The song

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Speaker 2: remains the same tour. Oh my gosh, this is going

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Speaker 2: to be the greatest thing ever. And the person I

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Speaker 2: was married to said, that'll be fine as long as

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Speaker 2: you're home by ten thirty. And I had never been

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Speaker 2: to a concert before, and the concert on the ticket

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Speaker 2: it said they started eight o'clock, so I thought ten thirty, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it sounds about right. I can be home. They didn't

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Speaker 2: even take the stage until nine o'clock.

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Speaker 1: Which is probably pretty early for led Zeppelin in the

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Speaker 1: early eighties. I mean the stories I just epic that

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Speaker 1: they sometimes wouldn't hit the stage until eleven.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know. And anyway, I'm looking at my watch

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Speaker 2: and looking at my watch, and in the meantime, I'm

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Speaker 2: watching this band on stage, and I'm having the greatest

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Speaker 2: time of my life. And two things are going to happen.

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Speaker 2: One of two things, I'm either going to stay. And

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Speaker 2: the person I was married to was physically abusive, so

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Speaker 2: I'll have my I'll get hit in the face when

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Speaker 2: I go home if I stay, or I can get

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Speaker 2: out of there and maybe he'll be okay with me

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Speaker 2: going to another concert. So I had to tell my

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Speaker 2: friends who knew what a led Zeppelin fan I was.

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Speaker 2: You guys have to leave. I'm sorry, I can't explain,

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Speaker 2: but I have to leave. And I got up. I

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Speaker 2: was walking toward the big arena, and I was walking

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Speaker 2: up to leave, and I turned around and I kind

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Speaker 2: of had one of those moments where I thought, oh,

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Speaker 2: and I kind of looked up to the rafters at

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Speaker 2: the LA Forum where the LA Lakers about basketball team

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Speaker 2: play a big arena, and I looked up at the

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Speaker 2: rafters and I thought, Okay, I'm going to leave, but

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Speaker 2: I swear, I vow I'm coming back here someday and

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Speaker 2: I'm going to mix live sound for an amazing band.

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Speaker 2: I will do it. And I left and things were

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Speaker 2: peaceful at home, and shortly thereafter I was able to escape,

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Speaker 2: literally and start my life. It was an impossible vow

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Speaker 2: because I didn't know any musicians. I didn't know how

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Speaker 2: to mix sound. I didn't know any sound engineers. But

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Speaker 2: I thought, I'm doing this. First step, get out of

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Speaker 2: that marriage. Second step, move not too far away to Hollywood, California.

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Speaker 2: Third step, get an entry level job as an audio

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Speaker 2: trainee technician, repairing consoles and tape machines. And then my

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Speaker 2: lucky break came. Five years after I began. I got

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Speaker 2: a phone call that changed my life because my favorite

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Speaker 2: artist in the world at that time nineteen eighty three

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Speaker 2: was Prince and he was looking for an audio technician.

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Speaker 2: I was one, so I joined him and we were

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Speaker 2: on Not long afterward, we were on the Purple Rain

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Speaker 2: tour and I was recording that concert for posterity in

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Speaker 2: the mobile recording truck parked behind Forum, and I remember

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Speaker 2: it's childlike, but I remember I lingered before I left

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Speaker 2: that building. After that first show. We did seven sold

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Speaker 2: out nights, and after that first show, I lingered. I

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Speaker 2: looked up at those rafters and I just thought to myself,

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Speaker 2: you see, I told you it took took eight years

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Speaker 2: for me to get from that led Zeppelin concert to

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Speaker 2: being on tour with Prince and making that dream come true.

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Speaker 1: But I did you make it sound like it's just

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Speaker 1: this seamless progression, Just one thing happened, and then another,

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Speaker 1: and then another and then another. Life doesn't tend to

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Speaker 1: work out quite like that. First of all, you've got

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Speaker 1: to leave an abusive marriage. Then I think this is

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Speaker 1: something that you said that I really want to understand.

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Speaker 1: And this may be unique. I'm not sure that everyone

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Speaker 1: has a moment like this. But you're leaving a concert

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Speaker 1: and you decide that you want to be a sound engineer,

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Speaker 1: you want to be involved in mixing music for a band.

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Speaker 1: Where did that come from?

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Speaker 2: Who?

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Speaker 1: Who actually has that kind of an experience where they

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Speaker 1: say this, this is it? I mean, I talk to

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Speaker 1: adults who have never had that experience, and they're in

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Speaker 1: their forties and fifties and searching, and they just have

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Speaker 1: never had that moment. And yet you have this moment

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Speaker 1: where you say, oh, my goodness, my life is here.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And we're both psychologists, and isn't that an interesting question?

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Speaker 2: I believe I don't be saying this no experience whatsoever,

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Speaker 2: But I do believe that children, deep down inside know

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Speaker 2: who they are. And I think adults tell them who

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Speaker 2: they are, and society tells them who they should be,

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Speaker 2: But I think they know who they are and down

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Speaker 2: deep inside. I always felt a little that I loved

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Speaker 2: music more than anything, but there was no way that

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Speaker 2: I was cut out to be a performer or a songwriter,

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Speaker 2: or a singer, or be on stage. Even the idea

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Speaker 2: of it just felt so foreign, But the idea of

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Speaker 2: contributing to records, making them come into this world, I

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Speaker 2: just felt so right. I Fortunately for me, I didn't

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Speaker 2: have people telling me who I was, and once I

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Speaker 2: was able to escape, I could decide for myself who

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Speaker 2: I was. I think it's something I tell students is

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Speaker 2: that when you leave college, you're going to step into

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Speaker 2: the world of the unknown. There's no getting around it.

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Speaker 2: You have to step into the fog of the unknown.

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Speaker 2: If you wait until you see a light out there,

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Speaker 2: you'll never step into it. The only light you have

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Speaker 2: is the one that's inside you. Be lit from the

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Speaker 2: inside what you want, and then what you have to

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Speaker 2: do is you have to first know the sphere of

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Speaker 2: what you want and know the sphere of who you are,

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Speaker 2: because success is going to happen in the ven diagram

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Speaker 2: where what you want overlaps with who you are. If

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Speaker 2: I had wanted to be a performer, it wouldn't work.

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Speaker 2: If I had wanted to be a record executive, it

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Speaker 2: wouldn't worked. I would have been intimidated and I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: have felt comfortable. But I knew I had a mechanical mind,

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Speaker 2: technical mind that just felt right, and it overlapped to

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Speaker 2: some degree with what I wanted and that worked.

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Speaker 1: How did you go from repairing tape machines and doing

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Speaker 1: some sound work in audio studios in LA to being

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Speaker 1: picked up by Prince?

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Speaker 2: So Prince has just come off the nineteen ninety nine

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Speaker 2: tour and he was a star, but he hadn't yet

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Speaker 2: reached superstardom, and he had at the tender age of

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Speaker 2: twenty four. He'd gotten the green light from his record

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Speaker 2: label to do a semi autobiographical movie of his life

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Speaker 2: twenty four to twenty five years old. But they gave

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Speaker 2: him the green light for Purple Rain, and he was

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Speaker 2: poised to take his career to the next level. So

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Speaker 2: he told his management, get me a technician, Get me

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Speaker 2: someone from New York or LA. Because he lived in Minnesota,

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Speaker 2: which is the middle of the country and it's not

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Speaker 2: a hub for record labels and pro audio industry. So

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Speaker 2: his management in LA put the word out, anybody want

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Speaker 2: to go to Minnesota and work for this guy, this

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Speaker 2: guy with the high heels and the hair and the makeup.

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Speaker 2: And a friend told me about that opportunity. Knowing what

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Speaker 2: a Prince fan I was, and knowing that he liked

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Speaker 2: working with women and just was a perfect fit. So

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Speaker 2: I heard about the job and got the gig. It

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Speaker 2: was Prince who moved me from the equipment repairing role

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Speaker 2: into the engineer rule the more creative chair.

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Speaker 1: You end up spending more than a decade producing and

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Speaker 1: doing sound. You had this wonderful full circle moment at

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Speaker 1: the LA Forum, the place where you had to leave

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Speaker 1: so that you wouldn't get beaten up, and then you

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Speaker 1: make a decision that most people must have scratched their

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Speaker 1: head out and said, what are you doing? You decided

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Speaker 1: to go back to high school and finish high school

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Speaker 1: in your forties.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the same calling that I felt when I was

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Speaker 2: a child to make records happened again. And in my

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Speaker 2: forties I began getting that sense from the inside saying,

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Speaker 2: wouldn't it be great to be a scientist? Wouldn't it

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Speaker 2: be great? And I didn't know any scientists. I had

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Speaker 2: no idea how they lived and how they worked. But

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Speaker 2: that little voice was saying, I think that could be me.

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Speaker 2: That could be me. And that voice wasn't going away,

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Speaker 2: and I recognized it from when I was a child.

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Speaker 2: I knew it was telling me this is who you

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Speaker 2: are now. Go be is And isn't it marvelous when

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Speaker 2: your daydreams are putting you in a certain place and

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Speaker 2: your body can actually be in that place where your

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Speaker 2: day dreams are taking you. I must say this was

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Speaker 2: made possible in part because I'm single and childless. If

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Speaker 2: I'd had a family that, I don't think that would

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Speaker 2: have been possible. You can't just leave your gig because

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Speaker 2: you feel a calling from inside if you've got if

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Speaker 2: you've got people who depend on you, but without people

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Speaker 2: to depend on me, that I could do whatever I wanted.

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Speaker 2: So I took the leap and it worked out. I'm

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Speaker 2: very happy in my neuroscience pursuits.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious about the process. Will you nervous trying to

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Speaker 1: get your education back on track given that you hadn't

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Speaker 1: completed high school? And as a second, I guess follow

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Speaker 1: up question, would you just explore with us a little

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Speaker 1: bit about what happened with the mistakes you made as

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Speaker 1: you tried to enroll in university because this part of

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Speaker 1: your story just makes me laugh every time.

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Speaker 2: No one in my family has been to the university

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Speaker 2: or has a college degree, so I had no one

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Speaker 2: that I could consult on this and I just thought.

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Speaker 2: I knew I had to get my ged graduate equivalent diploma,

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Speaker 2: meaning I got the high school thing, and now I

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Speaker 2: have to apply to college. And at this point I

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Speaker 2: was living in Minnesota and the University of Minnesota was

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Speaker 2: close by, so I thought, you just went and filled

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Speaker 2: out a piece of paper and you showed up on

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Speaker 2: the first day. I didn't know that, you know, there's

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Speaker 2: a selection process. So I learned about the test you

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Speaker 2: have to take and you have to get a certain

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Speaker 2: score until I did that and I got that score,

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Speaker 2: and then I thought, okay, I got my score. I'm

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Speaker 2: ready to roll. And I went down to the admissions

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Speaker 2: office and I said I want to sign up because

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Speaker 2: I want to come to college. And the fellow the

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Speaker 2: administrator kept looking at me, like, what what's deal, lady,

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Speaker 2: And he said, well, you have to write an essay,

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Speaker 2: and I said, well, do you have any paper?

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Speaker 1: You do it right there and then on the spot.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know. I didn't know, Okay, I'll write something.

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Speaker 2: And he gave me these little post it notes and

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Speaker 2: I had a pen. I guess he thought I was

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Speaker 2: just going to do a sketch, you know, for later

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Speaker 2: or something. But I wrote an essay and told them

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Speaker 2: this is my story and this is what I've done,

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Speaker 2: and handed a little stack of post it notes, and

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Speaker 2: I remember this guy was just looking at me, and

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Speaker 2: he kept saying, you're a hard charger, You're a hard charger.

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Speaker 2: And I guess they kind of figured, well, this is

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Speaker 2: just so unusual. Okay, come on in. So you had

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Speaker 2: asked the question, was I nervous? And I bought the

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Speaker 2: textbooks and I hadn't been at school since I was seventeen,

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Speaker 2: and I thought you had to take the books to

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Speaker 2: the classroom with you. So I showed up on the

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Speaker 2: first day of university and I got all these books

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Speaker 2: with me, and I thought, oh, this is chemistry class.

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Speaker 3: Oh it's going to really hard. And I bet it's

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Speaker 3: gonna be an old professor. He's gonna have a gray beard,

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Speaker 3: he's gonna be really strict, he's probably gonna have a

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Speaker 3: lab coat. And I'm gonna sit in the front of rope,

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Speaker 3: so I'm gonna catch you every word he's saying. Here

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Speaker 3: comes this chemistry guy, now here it comes. And in

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Speaker 3: through the door walked a young woman, maybe five feet tall,

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Speaker 3: blonde hair and a ponytail, nine months pregnant. This is

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Speaker 3: the chemistry professor, and her husband was with her because

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Speaker 3: she was due to give birth any day. That was

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Speaker 3: my first major surprise. This isn't the college that you

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Speaker 3: imagined when you were young. This is this is a

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Speaker 3: new college and a new experience, and it ended up

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Speaker 3: being better than anything I ever imagined it would be.

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Speaker 1: Your story is extraordinary. You end up graduating with a

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Speaker 1: PhD and now you work as a university professor. This

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Speaker 1: is somebody who left school before finishing high school, had

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Speaker 1: an abusive marriage. I mean, the whole story just I

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Speaker 1: get goosebumps. It's just such an inspiring story. When you

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Speaker 1: encounter young people who are either finishing high school and

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Speaker 1: getting ready for their university experience, or you talk to

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Speaker 1: parents who are stressed out because the kids aren't where

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Speaker 1: the parents think they need to be. When you think

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Speaker 1: about this high pressure time that Australian parents and families

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Speaker 1: are encountering right now at the end of year twelve,

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Speaker 1: what advice, what encouragement would you give based on this

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Speaker 1: extraordinary life that you've lived.

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Speaker 2: I think one of the first things is to think about,

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Speaker 2: as I said earlier, who are you kind of mind?

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Speaker 2: You have what sort of thinker are you? What sorts

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Speaker 2: of problems are you really good at solving? And what

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Speaker 2: kinds they are just completely out of your real house

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Speaker 2: and feel overwhelming to you. Ask yourself what you want

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Speaker 2: and to understand that, you have to pay attention to

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Speaker 2: your day dreams. What is your toys? Take you where?

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Speaker 2: What do you want? Who are you? And then you

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Speaker 2: have to think about what success looks like to you.

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Speaker 2: The neuroscientist philosopher Sam Harris said the definition of a

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Speaker 2: good life is waking up every day to work that

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Speaker 2: is interesting and difficult. I feel like I've got that.

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Speaker 2: I love my neuroscience and it's a challenge and it's

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Speaker 2: interesting enough to get me out of bed, difficult enough

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Speaker 2: to keep me at my desk. Now, my sister in law, Paula,

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Speaker 2: was a horrible student, barely barely pasted high school. But

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Speaker 2: she is the Louis Pasteur of social relationships. She's a

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Speaker 2: wonderful wife. She'd been married to my brother for thirty

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Speaker 2: five years. She's raised wonderful daughters. She has a wonderful

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Speaker 2: neighbor and friend and family member. She has intelligence and

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Speaker 2: knowledge and skills that I can only dream of that

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Speaker 2: I envy. Now Paula thinks that the word zebra's spelt

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Speaker 2: with six letters. So Paula's not going to win any

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Speaker 2: trivia contest. I have a kind of intelligence that she

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Speaker 2: doesn't have, but she definitely has an intelligence that I

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Speaker 2: don't have. Paula is every bit as successful as I am.

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Speaker 2: She got what she wanted and what she's really good at,

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Speaker 2: and I think that's that's the measure.

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Speaker 1: You know, your story is incredible, Your wisdom is so valuable.

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Speaker 1: I wish that we had four hours for this podcast.

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Speaker 1: It's been such a delight to talk to you, Susan Rodgers.

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Speaker 1: Thank you very very much for sharing what you have

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Speaker 1: on the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Justin. And if you ever want

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Speaker 2: to have me back talking about music and teenagers and

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Speaker 2: young people, well I'd be delighted.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to take you up on that one hundred percent.

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Speaker 1: The name of the book that Susan Rodgers has written

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Speaker 1: is this is What It Sounds Like What the Music

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Speaker 1: you Love says about you and Susan Rodgers. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I would read the bio again, but it's going to

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Speaker 1: take me all day. Just I hope that's been a

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Speaker 1: helpful conversation. Thank you so much for listening. The Happy

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Speaker 1: Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media.

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Speaker 1: Craig Bruce is our executive producer. If you'd like more

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Speaker 1: information about making your family happier, please visit happyfamilies dot

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Speaker 1: com dot a you, or check out our Facebook page

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Speaker 1: Doctor Justin Colson's Happy Families