1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,719 Speaker 1: You know, I was in a WE work office in Boston, 2 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: I think in January, and I recorded the ambient noise 3 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 1: in that office, which was like a frat house. Frankly, 4 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: it was that noisy that was just as distracting as 5 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: if I got a couple of two year olds running around. 6 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: You know, you have to appreciate that this is not 7 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: location specific. It is discipline about how you allocate time, 8 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: how you deal with interruptions, and how you create an 9 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: environment where you can concentrate for a portion of the day. 10 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 11 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:43,839 Speaker 2: used by the world's most successful people to get so 12 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 2: much out of their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Impact. 13 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 2: I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, 14 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 2: and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work date. 15 00:00:55,960 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 2: My guest today is entrepreneur and philanthropist and Barnes. What 16 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 2: you might know Andrew for is for being a person 17 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 2: behind creating the four day work week, where as the 18 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:13,119 Speaker 2: founder of Perpetual Guardian, he trialed having his two hundred 19 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 2: plus staff do a four day work week that it 20 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 2: is fit five days worth of work into four. Andrew 21 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 2: now consults to companies around the world, helping them do 22 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 2: exactly what he did very successfully at Perpetual Guardian. Andrew 23 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 2: also wrote a book about his experience with implementing the 24 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 2: four day week, called The Four Day Week, which looks 25 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 2: at the results the firm has achieved and how you 26 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 2: can create a shorter week at your organization. So I 27 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 2: found this chat really fascinating. We delve into a whole 28 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 2: bunch of different strategies and tactics that Andrew's staff used 29 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 2: to be able to fit a five day week into 30 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 2: what is now a four day week, and also how 31 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 2: Andrew himself sets boundaries between work non work life. And 32 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 2: we also talk about if you're looking to do this 33 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 2: kind of thing at your organization, where you should start. 34 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 2: So on that note, let's go to Andrew to hear 35 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 2: about how he works. Andrew, Welcome to the show. 36 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: Thank you, it's great to be here. 37 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:19,959 Speaker 2: And now where are you today? Because we are all 38 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 2: working from home and socially isolated, so I'd love to 39 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 2: know where are you in this morning. 40 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: Well, I took the very difficult decision to go back 41 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: to our house on Wahiki Island, which is the island 42 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: of Wine just off Auckland. So as I talk to you, 43 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: I'm looking out across a beautiful hierarchy gulf towards Ranguetto 44 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: and the city of Auckland. So actually, there are worse 45 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 1: places to socially isolated. 46 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, your poor thing. That sounds horrible. All right, well, 47 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 2: look I do. We will be getting into the concept 48 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 2: of a four day week and how you actually make 49 00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 2: that happen. But to start with, I imagine your whole company, 50 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 2: or your two hundred plus employees, is everybody working from 51 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 2: home right now? 52 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, we're in category four lockdown over here, which basically 53 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: means you only can go into the office if you're 54 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 1: essential workers or deemed to be in the essential industry. 55 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 1: Now a bit of our business is. But as a 56 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: matter of policy, we've got everybody working from home, and 57 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 1: we've had that in place from the beginning last week. 58 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 2: Right okay? And for you, would you have you typically 59 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 2: worked from home in the past. Was that something that 60 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 2: was part of your weekly routine or is this fairly 61 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 2: novel for you? 62 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: Well, the reality of the last two years with the 63 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: four day week is that I have barely been in 64 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: the office in fact, barely been in the country in 65 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: many ways. So for me, working remotely has been something 66 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 1: that I've been doing naturally for I would say the 67 00:03:56,200 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: last few years. In any case, what it actually has 68 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: done is it required some different definitions because I think 69 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: one of the challenges when you do work from home 70 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: that it's very easy to actually work even longer hours 71 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: than you worked in the office because there is no 72 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 1: start and finish time of your working day. So that's 73 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: one of the things that I think, you know, everybody 74 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: has to be cognizant of in these times. 75 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 2: So how do you create boundaries? And I guess I 76 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 2: don't know. I find that as a business owner myself, 77 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 2: it can be a little bit different with the boundaries, 78 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 2: sometimes quite a lot. Actually, I don't really feel the 79 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 2: need for boundaries. I love what I do, as I'm 80 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:40,919 Speaker 2: sure you do. That comes across very clearly in the book. 81 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 2: So do you have like startup and wind down rituals 82 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 2: or routines or anything like that to create some kind 83 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 2: of boundary. 84 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, look at in the morning, I will 85 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: do exercise. I'm not one of these, you know. I'm 86 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: not in the same league as the people who get 87 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 1: up am and do an hour's meditation and then go 88 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: to the gym and then get to the office. I 89 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: will do a walk with my partner at the start 90 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: of the day, probably six six point thirty we'll go 91 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 1: for work. And that is as much because doing the 92 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: walk is the time when often we bounce ideas around. 93 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 1: It's our creative time, and that's always been, you know, 94 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 1: the routine for the start of the day. At the 95 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,479 Speaker 1: end of the days, that's a bit harder for us 96 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: because quite often we have on the old world at 97 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,919 Speaker 1: least we had a lot of engagements that would have 98 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 1: been related to the charities and things that the company 99 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 1: was involved with, and so quite often we would have 100 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,280 Speaker 1: to be going out, you know, night after night during 101 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 1: the week. Now, whether that's real work or whether it's 102 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: it's a quasi social it is up for debate. But 103 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 1: that's the hardest bit of them. So what I then 104 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: did is once we really got in to the four 105 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 1: day week, for me, you know, my weekends are now sacrosanct. 106 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:07,479 Speaker 1: I don't have email on my iPad that I take 107 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:11,679 Speaker 1: to the island. I am off then for the period 108 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 1: of the weekend. I can read magazines and newspapers, but 109 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:17,159 Speaker 1: I can't do emails. 110 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:21,479 Speaker 2: Wow, that's amazing. And so what about on your phone? 111 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 2: Do you have email on your phone or is there 112 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 2: literally no way for you to access email unless you 113 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 2: install it and remember the password. 114 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:31,479 Speaker 1: LOOKI if I really wanted to, I could. I'm lucky 115 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: that the signal here on why heike is rubbish. So 116 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 1: actually half the time the mobile phone doesn't work, so 117 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 1: that sort of solves that problem. But no, that's a discipline. 118 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:45,039 Speaker 1: That's a discipline thing that I put the phone away. 119 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: And that's important because you know, what we're trying to 120 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: do with our four day week campaign is say, actually, 121 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: you need to spend less time working. And if the 122 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: boss of the organization then starts firing emails out over 123 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 1: the weekend or doing work over the weekend, that sends 124 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: entirely the wrong signal to the team. 125 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, it certainly does. So I'm wondering about the discipline 126 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 2: piece because I get it in theory, I love it 127 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 2: in theory. But phones, I mean, the software on the 128 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 2: phones is designed to be addictive. So how how did 129 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 2: you break that pattern for yourself? 130 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: Well, I'm not a huge fan of social media. I 131 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: mean I don't have a Facebook account, for example, I've 132 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: never particularly enjoyed it, so for me it's been it's 133 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: been relatively easy. My biggest challenge was that I had 134 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 1: all my magazines and newspapers on the phone, and so 135 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: consequently it's very easy to read that article and then 136 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: click and see what your email's doing. So that's why 137 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: I put an iPad together which had no mail on it, 138 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: and that then meant that, you know, I'm spending my time. 139 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:00,119 Speaker 1: You know, if I'm reading an article, I can read 140 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: the article, but there's no email to flick to at 141 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: the end of the reading session. Now, a lot of 142 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: this is discipline. We found it in our own company 143 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: that we actually for people who weren't good at, for example, 144 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: not being distracted by their phone, we built in a 145 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: whole set of lockers so you can lock your phone 146 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: away and therefore not be tempted. And a lot of 147 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: this is is, you know, you just have to play 148 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: it in people's different levels of willpower. 149 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 2: That's awesome. So you've got lockers for mobile phones, that's 150 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 2: so cool. 151 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: Yes, we did. It was one of the things that 152 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: we we happened to be rebuilding our company offices at 153 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: the time. We initiated the four day week drop, and 154 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: that was one of the things that came out that 155 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: some of the staff said that they, you know, much 156 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: as they tried, they were forever being disrupted by their phones, 157 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: and they didn't have the willpower to turn them off 158 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: to you know, put them out site. So we said, right, okay, 159 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:04,559 Speaker 1: well you can if you want, you can lock them away. 160 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: It's easier. I think they could then say to people, 161 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 1: look about it, and we've got this policy. You can 162 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 1: lock the phone away, so we couldn't. We couldn't answer 163 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: the call. So it gives people, it gives people boundaries, 164 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: but it also gives people an excuse as to why 165 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 1: they are not instantaneously available. And I think that's one 166 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 1: of the big points in our world that we've now 167 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: determined that you always must be instantaneously available, which is 168 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 1: not really the case. 169 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 2: Definitely. What I love about the phone blockers is that, 170 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 2: you know, I think that some of the solutions that 171 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 2: are most effective when we're trying to increase productivity are 172 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 2: things that actually eliminate the need to use our willpower 173 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 2: because I've obviously only got limited reserves. Are there other 174 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 2: strategies or hacks like that where you've given people this 175 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 2: novel solution. That does mean they now you know, it 176 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,679 Speaker 2: kind of becomes easier to change those habits. 177 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I mean, what a lot of the improvements, 178 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: the productivity improvements that we saw when we initiated the 179 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: four day week, because you know, after all, what this 180 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 1: is doing is saying time is now the scarce resource. 181 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 1: If you want to be out of the office in 182 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 1: four days rather than five, you have got to be 183 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: more efficient. How do you do that? So it's things 184 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: like lock of the phone away. It's things like no 185 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: meeting more than half an hour, and actually, if it's 186 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 1: not relevant, you don't need to attend the meeting. It's, 187 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: for example, putting a flag in your pot, which gives 188 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 1: you your quiet hower, which means that in that period 189 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 1: of time you are not to be disturbed. So that 190 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 1: means you can focus, you can concentrate, you can work 191 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:48,199 Speaker 1: through those tasks that require concentration and get them done. 192 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,560 Speaker 1: It's not we don't allow people to eat their lunch 193 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: in at their desk, because that's when you do your 194 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: social calls. That's when you know you're rehear Curry is 195 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: wafting around your colleagues's desks and making them distracted, so 196 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: you have to go to the canteen and eat the 197 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:12,199 Speaker 1: launch there. So there's lots of small little things that 198 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:16,079 Speaker 1: we put in place which change behavior in a very 199 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: very simple way, but cumulatively deliver a significant improvement in productivity. 200 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 2: Tell me more about these meetings. So meetings are kepped 201 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:29,319 Speaker 2: at half an hour, people can opt out. What are 202 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 2: some of the other rules around meetings that you put 203 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 2: in place. 204 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: Well, if you think about it, meetings have become an 205 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: hour because that's broadly what Microsoft told us in the 206 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: calendar that it was because we booked for our blocks. 207 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 1: There was no reason for them to be an hour. 208 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: It's just that once the calendars started to dominate our lives, 209 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: meetings became an hour. So by saying that they can 210 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: be no more than half an hour, that does mean 211 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: a few things. You've got to have an agenda, you've 212 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 1: got to be focused. You can't just drag on for 213 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: the sake of it. And by saying to people if 214 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:15,959 Speaker 1: it's not relevant, don't attend, it stops that mass meeting 215 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:20,439 Speaker 1: where broadly everybody shows up, nobody says anything, and nobody 216 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 1: really gets anything out of it. Now you may think, well, 217 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:28,679 Speaker 1: that's a very small thing. When Microsoft in Japan introduced 218 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:32,440 Speaker 1: the four day week trial in their business, they only 219 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 1: had three rules. They had a rule that said you 220 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: had to use Microsoft teams, that no meeting was more 221 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: than half an hour, and no more than five people 222 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: in a meeting, and their productivity went up thirty nine 223 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 1: point nine percent on that change alone. 224 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,199 Speaker 2: It's interesting, isn't it, the idea of capping the number 225 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 2: of people in meetings. I remember we do a little 226 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 2: bit of work with Forward at Inventium, and I remember 227 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:02,959 Speaker 2: what one of the Forward employees telling me that there's 228 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 2: a method for calculating the cost of a meeting. So 229 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 2: depending on who they invite, depending on the salary level 230 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 2: they're out, they can actually add up the cost of 231 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 2: having all those people in the meeting for one hour 232 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 2: or however the meeting goes. And I think, what a 233 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:21,559 Speaker 2: brilliant way of, you know, really thinking deliberately about who 234 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 2: needs to be in the meeting and how long should 235 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 2: it be for because a lot of our meeting behavior 236 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 2: it's just automatic. Is an earth it is? 237 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: And that's again why the you know, the four day 238 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 1: week is doing it in a less scientific way, because 239 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:38,079 Speaker 1: it is saying to people right, you have a choice. 240 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: You can attend that meeting. But if you do, if 241 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 1: you attend all these meetings, you might not get your 242 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 1: work done in four days. You may have to work five. 243 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,839 Speaker 1: So how important really is it now? If it is 244 00:13:54,920 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: important because it's important as to you delivering the goals 245 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 1: that you have in your role, then you'll attend it 246 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: because that thing is important in order for you to 247 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: achieve the productivity outcomes that are part of the agreed deal. 248 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: So you have this interplay between your productivity outcomes and 249 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: the information that you require and the time that you 250 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: have to spend. And therefore, if it isn't necessary, you 251 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: don't go. And that's quite a good discipline. If it 252 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 1: was necessary, you would go. 253 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 2: Does that happen quite a lot? Or did that happen 254 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 2: a lot in the early days of the four day 255 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 2: work week where people would opt out of meetings because 256 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 2: I imagine now just people would keep meetings small because that 257 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 2: probably doesn't feel good if you invite someone to a 258 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 2: meeting and they decline. 259 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: Well, what actually happens here is that the way we 260 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: work our four day week is it's individual opt into 261 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: the policy, but it's a team based goal. So if 262 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: the t team fails to deliver the agreed levels of productivity, 263 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: then we have the right to say, right, everybody, you're 264 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: working five days a week. So what happens is that 265 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: there's not just personal responsibility about how you use your time. 266 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: You also have to think about how I waste other 267 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: people's time. Because if I waste a whole pile of 268 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: people's time in my team by inviting them to a 269 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 1: meeting that they don't need to be at, and then 270 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: as a consequence, we don't achieve our productivity outcomes, that 271 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: puts everybody's four day week in jeopardy in that team. 272 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: And so it's two disciplines here. I'm not going to 273 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: waste your time, you don't waste mine, and that therefore 274 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 1: is almost self policing. 275 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's a really interesting distinction because it's 276 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 2: sort of easy to think about, well, how do I 277 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 2: not waste my own time, but then thinking about how 278 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 2: do I not waste other people's times? Are there other 279 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 2: behavior changes that you notice happen aside from inviting unnecessary 280 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 2: people to meetings? Are other things that people do differently 281 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 2: to avoid wasting other people's time? 282 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: Now, I think there's lots of you know, there are 283 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,479 Speaker 1: really just lots of very small things. But actually, bizarrely, 284 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: some of the best things we've found is that the 285 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: cooperation between individuals between teams has absolutely improved. And also 286 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 1: people are very keen to be, for example, to train 287 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 1: up new people, because if you bring somebody into the 288 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: organization previously everybody's going, oh, can't be bothered. But if 289 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: you don't get that person up the curve pretty quickly, 290 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: that in turn lowers your team productivity. So suddenly people 291 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:55,119 Speaker 1: start to think about how do I make a difference 292 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 1: across the organization? How do I make a difference to 293 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:04,400 Speaker 1: my team? And I can't say that there's any significant 294 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 1: science about it. It just sort of works because we 295 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:16,360 Speaker 1: have empowered our staff to find the solutions to make 296 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: the business work better. So they get this, which I 297 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: think is an incredible gift of more time, and that 298 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: is so valuable that that is the thing that drives 299 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 1: behavioral change. We have staff who will tell the stories 300 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,239 Speaker 1: of what they're doing in their time off, and they 301 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: will cry when they tell the story because it's that important. Equally, 302 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,679 Speaker 1: do you want to be the person who takes that 303 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: away from now? So it very much is a self 304 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: policing change in culture in the organization. We really almost 305 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: don't even think about it now we've been doing it 306 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: for two years. You know, the business us works and 307 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: that's really driven by the staff. 308 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 2: I'm curious about the non work time and how you 309 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 2: spoke about You've got very strict boundaries there, as you 310 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 2: should as a leader. How how did you find other 311 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 2: people make that shift because a lot of people, you know, 312 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,439 Speaker 2: sort of identify themselves in their work. They you know, 313 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:25,680 Speaker 2: sort of where it is a badge that they're always on. 314 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 2: Was like, was that was that a difficult shift? What 315 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 2: strategies did people use to I guess be more like 316 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 2: you in that sense? 317 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: It was a difficult shift. Therefore, the only people who 318 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: are mandated required to take the four day week in 319 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: my company and my senior leadership team. Everybody else cannot 320 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: in They can't. Now are they working when they're at home? 321 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 1: They might be, but they can't send an email. You know, 322 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: you can't. You can't pretend that you're doing it and 323 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: not do it. Ye, So you know a little bit 324 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:06,439 Speaker 1: of that was forced on them. Sorry that that's the 325 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 1: way it's going to be. And also the leaders were 326 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 1: then gold on how many in their teams were doing 327 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:16,160 Speaker 1: the four day week, so that became something that they 328 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,479 Speaker 1: were being measured on. And if you measure something, you know, 329 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: inevitably you actually get performance in that regard. So the 330 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 1: start point was a bit enforced, but interestingly we found 331 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: that over time people suddenly start to appreciate it. We've 332 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: made it okay to spend time at home, We've made 333 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 1: it okay to you know, to share care responsibilities, to 334 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 1: do things for yourself. Now, once it's okay, there is 335 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: no consequence of doing it. We are not expecting people 336 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 1: to be less productive. In fact, they're more productive, so 337 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,360 Speaker 1: you know, there are no downsides from the company point view. 338 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: You just had to create the environment where it's okay, 339 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: because we are all creatures of this workaholic culture. I 340 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: mean I started in the city of London, you know, 341 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 1: twelve hour shifts basically, and I was colored that way 342 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,919 Speaker 1: all the way through my career up until you know, 343 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,880 Speaker 1: I was in my forties and it was only then 344 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: that you sit there and go, actually, you know, maybe 345 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 1: there's a better way. And that's what this is doing. 346 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: It basically is challenging people and saying I'm going to 347 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,639 Speaker 1: make it okay, once you experience it, you realize it. 348 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: But fear is what stops us from changing. 349 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm curious as to what are some of the 350 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 2: new challenges that have presented themselves in this new, insane 351 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 2: world that we've found ourselves in. Like for me, I'm 352 00:20:54,800 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 2: very disciplined at staying off most digital distractions. Sometimes I 353 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,719 Speaker 2: can get caught up in my inbox, but I'm not 354 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 2: really on social media other than to post content. And 355 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 2: now I'm finding that I'm checking news sites probably every 356 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 2: one or two hours, which is something that I never 357 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 2: used to do. And I figure, look, if I'm doing this, 358 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,439 Speaker 2: then surely other people are. I'm wondering what changes have 359 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:26,919 Speaker 2: you seen or what challenges are now happening because of 360 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,399 Speaker 2: this new world, and what are the strategies or some 361 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 2: of the strategies that you're finding are successful in still 362 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 2: maintaining that productivity. 363 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: Well, in fairness, we are a week and a half 364 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: into lockdown here in New Zealand, so it's a little 365 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: early to see significant tracts and we'll see that note 366 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 1: out when we do our next lot of monthly numbers. 367 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: But if you think about it, what we were asking 368 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 1: people to do when they were in the office was 369 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: to be better time managers to say, this is a 370 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: period of time I need to concentrate, this is a 371 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: period of time that I could socialize, This is a 372 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 1: period of time I can be in meetings. I am 373 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,159 Speaker 1: going to be disciplined about my social media. I'm going 374 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: to be disciplined about how much time I spend on 375 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,159 Speaker 1: the Internet. We found when we launched the trial, the 376 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 1: Internet's surfing on the top five sites in New Zealand 377 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: drop thirty five percent. Albeit we'd have expected a twenty 378 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,880 Speaker 1: percent reduction, we were seen a behavior change. Now, if 379 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 1: you think about the situation we find ourselves in, now, 380 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: what's different and so nothing. You're doing it from a 381 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 1: different location, but the issues of time management are exactly 382 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 1: the same. So we have got a team of people 383 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:51,199 Speaker 1: that for two years have been using these tools to 384 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: ensure that they could do their job in four days 385 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:59,199 Speaker 1: rather than five. So now they're at home. All that 386 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: is is a change location. You have to apply exactly 387 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: the same disciplines at home as you would in the office. 388 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,160 Speaker 1: You know, I was in a we work office in Boston, 389 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:14,120 Speaker 1: I think in January, and I recorded the ambient noise 390 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 1: in that office, which was like a frat house. Frankly, 391 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:22,880 Speaker 1: it was that noisy that was just as distracting as 392 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 1: if I've got a couple of two year olds rumning 393 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: a round. You know, you have to appreciate that this 394 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: is not location specific. It is discipline about how you 395 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 1: allocate time, how you deal with interruptions, and how you 396 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: create an environment where you can concentrate for a portion 397 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 1: of the day. So I think we're in pretty good 398 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 1: shape because we've been doing this in effect for two years. 399 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 2: Did you do formal time management or productivity training with 400 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 2: your company before you launched into the four day work week? 401 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 2: Or was it more need to make it work? And 402 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,199 Speaker 2: so you know, necessity is the mother of inventions, so 403 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 2: they just made it work. 404 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,160 Speaker 1: It was a little bit the latter, I'm afraid. I mean, 405 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: you know, the story is clear. I mean I was 406 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: on a plane I read this article that said the 407 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: BRIT's arowly productive two and a half ouns a day, 408 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: and I thought, is that happening in my company? And 409 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,879 Speaker 1: how would I know? So I thought I would just 410 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 1: run an experiment. And the way I thought I would 411 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: run the experiment, you say to people, well, look if 412 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,679 Speaker 1: I if I give you a day off a week, 413 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:32,159 Speaker 1: could you get your work done in the four days, 414 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 1: and actually would it make so wouldn't make any impact 415 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:42,199 Speaker 1: on productivity? And would I get better productivity because all 416 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 1: of those interruptions which I figured were filling the day 417 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,360 Speaker 1: would go away, you would reorganize your week. And all 418 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:51,880 Speaker 1: we did is we said to the team, you've got 419 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 1: a month to work out what you would do differently, 420 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: and then we'll go straight into a trial. So the 421 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,199 Speaker 1: short matter is it was a sort of a bit 422 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 1: of a Hail Mary passing yours. You tell me how 423 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: you're going to do it, and they came up with 424 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 1: the solutions. But what that then told me, of course, 425 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: was actually this wasn't that hard. You didn't need all 426 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: this analysis and process and evaluation. And in fact, the 427 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 1: only company that I'm aware of that has really failed 428 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 1: on an initiation of the four day week was one 429 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:26,679 Speaker 1: that never got to the trial because it spent all 430 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:32,360 Speaker 1: its time analyzing the outcomes, scared themselves rigid, and then 431 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: didn't actually initiate the trial. Whereas everybody else that we've 432 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,439 Speaker 1: talked to, we say, look, just give the challenge to 433 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 1: the staff and then run a trial and amazingly it works. 434 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: You know, it's a crazy idea. Treat you your staff 435 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 1: like adults, and actually you might get a reaction that 436 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 1: you didn't expect. 437 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,399 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And so I'm wondering, then, what are some of 438 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:01,640 Speaker 2: the strategies that people have applied For yourself, I'm curious 439 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 2: what worked for yourself to go from you know, let's 440 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 2: say you are like the average brit doing two point 441 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 2: five productive hours a day to now presumably at least 442 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 2: increasing that by say twenty five percent. So I'm curious, 443 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 2: let's maybe delve into some of your strategies. What are 444 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 2: some of the things that you started doing differently compared 445 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 2: to when you were doing twelve hour days. 446 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 1: Well, it's the key thing for me is formally the 447 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 1: boundaries that I apply, and also to try and not 448 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: lead by example by sending out those late night, early morning, 449 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 1: all through the weekend emails. For me, I don't work 450 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: in the business anymore. I have a range of companies 451 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:51,239 Speaker 1: that I have set up I'm founder of or on 452 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 1: the board of or what have you. So for me, 453 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 1: the biggest challenge is it's very easy for me to 454 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: work long hours because I've got five or six different 455 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,439 Speaker 1: jobs and I'm you know, I'm trying to allocate an 456 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 1: amount of time for each one. But what I've found 457 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: is downtime is my productive time. And therefore, for me, 458 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: the big change has been to recognize what it is 459 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 1: I'm good at. I'm actually good at the strategy. I'm 460 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 1: good at coming up with new ideas, and I'm not 461 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: going to be great at coming up with those new 462 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 1: ideas if I'm always tired, if I'm always in at meetings, 463 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: or I'm always I'm always working and were in glued 464 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 1: to the internet. But I will be far more creative 465 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:43,640 Speaker 1: walking up and down on a tangy beach and we'll 466 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 1: come up with a couple of new business ideas because 467 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,479 Speaker 1: my brain has been freed up. I have time to think. 468 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 1: So I would be saying to a lot of leaders, actually, 469 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: you need time to think. You've got to create it. 470 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: That's what you're being paid for, not paid to be 471 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:05,119 Speaker 1: You're paid for your leadership and your creativity skills. So 472 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 1: actually make more time for that. Leadership is as much 473 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: about communication as anything else, and then having time to 474 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: be creative. So you know, that's for me, I've just 475 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 1: forced myself into that routine that I make sure, I 476 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:29,360 Speaker 1: have significant downtime, so I've got an ability. 477 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 2: To think those three days downtime is potentially where you're 478 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 2: adding the most value to your companies. 479 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, I mean I'm absolutely convinced of it. You know, 480 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 1: if I look back at the some of the businesses 481 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 1: we've launched in recent years, I can trace their genesis 482 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 1: to want at Tanky Beach and actually just walking up 483 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 1: and now and having time to think. 484 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 2: Mmmm, that's fascinating. And for your staff, then what are 485 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 2: some of the strategies that you you hear about that 486 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 2: they apply that allow them to condense their work week 487 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 2: into four days rather than five. 488 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: Well, we've touched on a few of them. It's better 489 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: meeting discipline, better social media, phone discipline. It's the quiet time. 490 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 1: I mean the quiet time. I can't overemphasize. 491 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 2: Can you get really sort of specific here with the 492 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 2: quiet time? 493 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:25,959 Speaker 1: Like? 494 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 2: What does that look like? How are they creating it? 495 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: You get in statistically, you get interrupted every eleven minutes 496 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: in an open plan office. Open plan offices have been 497 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 1: probably the single greatest destructor of productivity that we have 498 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: developed in recent years. So you will be disrupted every 499 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: eleven minutes, and it will then take you twenty two 500 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: minutes to get back to full productivity. So in effect, 501 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: if you think about that, for every interruption broadly, including 502 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: the time of interruption, you know you've got probably eleven 503 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: minutes of productive work and half an hour of work 504 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: time which is less productive. And so if you can 505 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 1: eliminate those interruptions, that means that you will get a 506 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: period of time where you can concentrate and get on 507 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 1: with the task in hand. So we have this very 508 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: simple thing that you put. 509 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 3: A flag or a flower or a whatever symbol in 510 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 3: a pot by your computer if you are in your 511 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 3: quiet hour and you are not to be disturbed. 512 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 1: You can disturb the person later on, but when they 513 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: are concentrating, when they need to work through something, they 514 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 1: have got the ability to focus and to concentrate. Now 515 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 1: that is delivering probably a couple to three hours of 516 00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: equivalent productivity because they are capable of focusing rather than 517 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: being interrupted. Now that interruption can be a direct moment 518 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 1: tapping somebody on the shoulder, but it can also be 519 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 1: ambient noise in the office. It can be a meeting 520 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: that's occurring immediately behind your desk. So another thing we 521 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: did in the office is we moved all those little 522 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 1: meeting tables that were often within banks of desks, and 523 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: we moved them over to a different part of the floor, 524 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: and we put soft furnishings, high soft furnishings around them, 525 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 1: so it deadened the noise. We have phone booths that 526 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 1: if you're going to have a lengthy, complex conversation, go 527 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 1: into the phone booth so you're not disturbing everyone else. 528 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: And what that serves to do with also having people 529 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 1: out the office is it drops the noise level, It 530 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 1: drops the ambient noise in the office, and it means 531 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: it's easier to focus and easier to concentrate. I mean, 532 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: there's no rocket scilence with this. It's just lots of 533 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: little hacks that we've put in place that mean that 534 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 1: it's easier to get work done when you need to 535 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 1: get it done. 536 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 2: And how about email or instant messengers, slack those essentially 537 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 2: electronic communication channels. How are people approaching those differently? Because 538 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 2: it's quite easy to lose several hours just in an 539 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:23,960 Speaker 2: inbox black hole. 540 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 1: So again it's a function of back to that very 541 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: first point. Am I going to waste your time? Because 542 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: I want you to respect my time if I respect yours, 543 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 1: so that the copy all reply all emails have dropped 544 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: because actually, suddenly, do I really need to do that? 545 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: A lot of that was self justification, So actually you've 546 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: got to think about what you do. Everything that you 547 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 1: do has an impact elsewhere in the organization, So you know, 548 00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 1: do you do that? I must admit I've stopped replials, 549 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 1: and quite a lot of my colleagues have stopped apply. 550 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 1: I only need to send it to you. They're the 551 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,239 Speaker 1: person who needs to read it. Nobody else does, so 552 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 1: you're and if you're not in the office quite often 553 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 1: it makes it a little bit easier because often you're 554 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 1: not part of some of this general traffic that's going around. Look, 555 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 1: you know, it is very much about an individual taking responsibility, 556 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 1: and if all individuals in the organization take responsibility, the 557 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 1: cumulative effect is material as far as the organization is concerned. 558 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 2: One thing I'm wondering, and particularly now, when many many 559 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 2: people are experiencing pretty intense social isolation. I guess, depending 560 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 2: on where their country is, lockdown sort of process is 561 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 2: at and then combined with the fact that everyone is 562 00:33:53,360 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 2: working ultra productively, presumably socializing decreases and the office band 563 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 2: to decreases when you're trying to get five days work 564 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 2: done in four. How like, what strategies have you found 565 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,800 Speaker 2: staff for using to maintain that sense of just social 566 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 2: connectedness with colleagues. 567 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,360 Speaker 1: Well, let's look at it before COVID and during COVID. 568 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 1: So if you look before COVID, my initial thesis was 569 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:22,880 Speaker 1: based on that UK survey that said two and a 570 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,919 Speaker 1: half hours a day of true productivity. So if you're 571 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,799 Speaker 1: working an eight hour day, all right, there were five 572 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 1: and a half hours of unproductive activity, which some of 573 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:37,359 Speaker 1: it is work related and some of it is social. Now, 574 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: in order to achieve five days productivity in four, you 575 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 1: only need to increase that productivity component from two and 576 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 1: a half two effectively three in a quarter hours. Now, 577 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 1: that's still four and a bit hours of unproductive and 578 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: socializing in every single day. This is the key point. 579 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 1: This is not about turning your workplace into a monastery. 580 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 1: Far from it. In fact, what we did is we 581 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,840 Speaker 1: made the size of our let's call it canteen, but 582 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:13,279 Speaker 1: it's a sort of a bar, breakout area, cafeteria, cafe. 583 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,760 Speaker 1: We made that much bigger, and we actually said to people, 584 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 1: if you're going to have lunch, you're and have coffee. 585 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: That's where you go. And actually the interactions are therefore 586 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 1: better because I'm not sitting at my desk, eating my 587 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 1: reheated curry on my own, looking at my emails. I'm 588 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:33,400 Speaker 1: in the cafe. So bizarrely we found things like team cohesion, 589 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:38,839 Speaker 1: company resilience, communication scores. All of these things went up 590 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:43,400 Speaker 1: as well, and actually socially there really was no impact. 591 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 1: If anything, you could argue it was better because people 592 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,960 Speaker 1: were actually when they went from their desk, they were 593 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 1: in an environment where they could socialize and communicate. So 594 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 1: it isn't about this, you know, the old fashioned image 595 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 1: of saried ranks and desks with everybody working quietly in 596 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:06,760 Speaker 1: the big clock at the end, overseen by a stern 597 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,560 Speaker 1: looking chap on a dias. That's not it at all, 598 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 1: far from it. There is still plenty of time for 599 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 1: that socialization to occur. Now, then, in a post COVID world, 600 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 1: we actually are absolutely as I think every other company is, 601 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 1: is encouraging people to use things like Microsoft Teams to 602 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 1: get on and have those social interactions that they would 603 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,280 Speaker 1: have in a normal day, but just do them digitally. 604 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 1: But again we've already worked out the boundaries that you 605 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 1: socialize at this time, and actually when you need to 606 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,800 Speaker 1: concentrate at work, that's when you concentrate and do work. 607 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:49,239 Speaker 1: So again, it's back to these very very simple personal 608 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:55,680 Speaker 1: time management disciplines that if everybody applies those, you end 609 00:36:55,760 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 1: up with better productivity and better outcomes around. 610 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,759 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's such a good point. I think 611 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 2: it's easy to imagine, you know, you've kind of got 612 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 2: all these workers turned into robots who are just working 613 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 2: and having no fun. But you know, I think when 614 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 2: you look at the numbers, well, absolutely, you've still got 615 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:16,719 Speaker 2: time for socializing. In the book, you talk about one 616 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,240 Speaker 2: of the challenges being how to manage workers who believe 617 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 2: they are one hundred percent productive for five days per 618 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,919 Speaker 2: week and can't go down to four days. How did 619 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:30,440 Speaker 2: you manage those people and convince them to give it 620 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:30,719 Speaker 2: a go. 621 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,240 Speaker 1: Well, I think there are two things that are important. 622 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,440 Speaker 1: One is that everybody is not as productive as they 623 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,880 Speaker 1: think they are. And so with some of those it 624 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 1: was it was literally a question. I'd be sitting down 625 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 1: and saying, well, actually, yes, okay, I understand that, but 626 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,280 Speaker 1: let's walk through what you're doing, and let's work out 627 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:59,319 Speaker 1: actually whether that is or is not productive, And we 628 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,759 Speaker 1: found inevitably that they would be often busy because I 629 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 1: don't know if they were in meetings, or they were 630 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 1: dealing with a pile of emails, or they would be 631 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 1: doing a process that actually, if they really thought about it, 632 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,319 Speaker 1: we could do a different way and be we could 633 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:20,400 Speaker 1: do more efficiently. Now, the other side of it, of course, 634 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 1: is that because the goal is a team based goal, 635 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:29,480 Speaker 1: you need to accept the fact that you may be productive. 636 00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:32,960 Speaker 1: But if all five of your colleagues are less productive 637 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,880 Speaker 1: than you are, they are still not going to achieve 638 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:37,600 Speaker 1: You're not going to achieve your goal of a four 639 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:42,560 Speaker 1: day week. So actually, then some of the people who 640 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 1: were being productive was to say, well, what is it 641 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:50,600 Speaker 1: that you're doing that we could translate for these people 642 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,840 Speaker 1: so they can become more productive. So actually, there isn't 643 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,319 Speaker 1: a need for you to be as burnt out and 644 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,359 Speaker 1: as productive as you are because these people are now 645 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 1: producing more. And the reality is what is the cost 646 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,799 Speaker 1: to you and to us of you working every hour? 647 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:14,279 Speaker 1: Goncerns because actually, a is it sustainable and what's the 648 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:18,719 Speaker 1: price that's being paid elsewhere? Is that are you being 649 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:21,480 Speaker 1: productive at the expense of your workers, or are you 650 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:25,279 Speaker 1: being productive at the expense of your family? And is 651 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:29,160 Speaker 1: that something that we as an organization want. So it 652 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:36,960 Speaker 1: requires again a rethinking about what the objectives are. And 653 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 1: it's not easy. I'm not saying that this is the 654 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:44,319 Speaker 1: easiest thing that you will ever do, but you know, 655 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,520 Speaker 1: spending time at work, spending a large amount of time 656 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:51,840 Speaker 1: at work is clearly not healthy for us, it's not 657 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:55,160 Speaker 1: healthy for the company, it's not healthy for the planet. 658 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:59,839 Speaker 1: So we have to rethink all of that and that 659 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,439 Speaker 1: they will be that. You know, in some people you're 660 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,120 Speaker 1: actually saying, well, largely, chill out a bit more, because 661 00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:06,960 Speaker 1: actually this is a marathon, not a spring. 662 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:14,319 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And I guess for managers, leaders, even you know, 663 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:18,520 Speaker 2: those that are reporting into a manager or leader and thinking, oh, 664 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,480 Speaker 2: I really want to give this four day work week 665 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,200 Speaker 2: thing ago, Like I mean, look you your message around, 666 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:29,400 Speaker 2: don't get into analysis paralysis, just get out there and 667 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:30,919 Speaker 2: give it a go. I mean, is it as simple 668 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,479 Speaker 2: as that? What what are the steps that people need 669 00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,279 Speaker 2: to take if they want to try it out? 670 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:38,799 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, the short answer is yes, it is as 671 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,680 Speaker 1: simple as that. But obviously if it was that simple, 672 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:46,920 Speaker 1: everyone would have done it. The problem is that we 673 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 1: as leaders are all conditioned that working longer equals working harder. 674 00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:54,880 Speaker 1: That's our problem, and we are concerned that if this 675 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,560 Speaker 1: goes wrong, we will carry the can. And you know, 676 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 1: I know from the reaction that myboard hat. You know, well, 677 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 1: if we can these people produce more working four days, 678 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,000 Speaker 1: wouldn't they produce even more if we made them go 679 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:10,200 Speaker 1: back to working five No, that's sort of not how 680 00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:12,960 Speaker 1: it works. So what you've got to do is you, 681 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:17,719 Speaker 1: as a leader, you have to think about who are 682 00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:20,480 Speaker 1: you trying to influence when you're trying to bring this in. 683 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:26,280 Speaker 1: And that's why we continually talk productivity, not work life balance. 684 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:33,240 Speaker 1: This is about understanding and achieving better levels of productivity, 685 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:37,719 Speaker 1: and the quid pro quo of that is that therefore 686 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:43,080 Speaker 1: we are we are able to give more time to 687 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:49,480 Speaker 1: our employees. Now once that has been grown us that 688 00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:52,480 Speaker 1: this is not being done at the expense of the 689 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:57,080 Speaker 1: business but far from it. In fact, you know, broadly, 690 00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,960 Speaker 1: wherever you are, whenever companies have introduced the four day week, 691 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:07,080 Speaker 1: they have seen material improvements in productivity, staff retention, staff 692 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 1: engagement scores, reduction in sick days, you know, dropping utility bills. 693 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:18,239 Speaker 1: There is literally nothing about this that I have found 694 00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:22,560 Speaker 1: that is negative. But that's speaking the language of business. 695 00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:26,239 Speaker 1: As a business, your biggest risk is not doing this 696 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:31,319 Speaker 1: rather than doing it. And once you've understood that and that, 697 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:37,520 Speaker 1: the trial gives you the safe space, the opportunity without commitment, 698 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,640 Speaker 1: to experiment with this and see if it works. Now, 699 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:45,160 Speaker 1: if it doesn't work, you end up with still a 700 00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:49,560 Speaker 1: team that's probably more empowered, more enthused. You've probably got 701 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:53,880 Speaker 1: a better understanding of productivity outcomes, You've got a better 702 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:57,839 Speaker 1: measurement statistics than you would have had before. That's if 703 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:02,040 Speaker 1: it fails, but if you then get the productivity improvements 704 00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:05,439 Speaker 1: on the top, So why wouldn't you do it now? 705 00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:08,359 Speaker 1: That is the way I would counter that to shareholders, 706 00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:12,839 Speaker 1: to directors, to leaders, What is the downside? If you're 707 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:16,400 Speaker 1: so convinced it isn't going to work, then okay, do 708 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:19,319 Speaker 1: a trial and prove that you're right. Now if you 709 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:23,360 Speaker 1: find that you're wrong, well you've then got all those benefits. 710 00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:26,200 Speaker 1: So I'm a very firmly of the view there is 711 00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:31,640 Speaker 1: no downside for giving this ago, but there is significant 712 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:35,759 Speaker 1: downsides if you don't give it a go, And if 713 00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,799 Speaker 1: your biggest competitor does it tomorrow You've got to work 714 00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,440 Speaker 1: out you'll go how you are going to attract and 715 00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,800 Speaker 1: retain the best staff if they're all going to your competitor. 716 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,480 Speaker 2: Very compelling arguments. And look, my last question for you, Andrew, 717 00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:53,200 Speaker 2: if people want to read more and consume more information 718 00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:56,200 Speaker 2: about what you are doing in the four day work week, 719 00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:58,480 Speaker 2: what's the best way for people to do that. 720 00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:01,520 Speaker 1: Well, well, obviously the start point is by the book 721 00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:06,680 Speaker 1: The Four Day Week, which is you know, you can 722 00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:10,719 Speaker 1: get in any format paperback or audio or kindle. We 723 00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,919 Speaker 1: also have the website, the four Day Week www dot 724 00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:19,680 Speaker 1: Fourdayweek dot com website, and it's a bit clunky these 725 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:22,200 Speaker 1: days because we've chucked so much stuff on it, but 726 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:26,680 Speaker 1: we have always had the policy that we have we 727 00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:30,160 Speaker 1: will share everything, so our research is up. There are 728 00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:35,480 Speaker 1: our contracts, the white paper, which was the original feedback 729 00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:40,520 Speaker 1: from both the company and the staff, lots of interesting 730 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:43,640 Speaker 1: articles from around the world. Everything is there on the 731 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:46,160 Speaker 1: four Day Week website. And then if you've you know, 732 00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,520 Speaker 1: you've read the book and you've done that and actually 733 00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:51,440 Speaker 1: you need some more, then please feel free to contact 734 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:55,719 Speaker 1: us at four Day Week. We are we're building a 735 00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:04,240 Speaker 1: global research network to help companies and governments by funding 736 00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:07,279 Speaker 1: research around the world so that we are strengthening the 737 00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:09,640 Speaker 1: case for the four day week. So you know, there's 738 00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:12,480 Speaker 1: lots of stuff there, but we're always happy, you know, 739 00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:13,800 Speaker 1: at the end of the day to pick up a 740 00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:16,640 Speaker 1: telephone and have a chat and just give a couple 741 00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:20,799 Speaker 1: of pointers if that helps. You know, this is a 742 00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:25,120 Speaker 1: real opportunity for us to make work fit for purpose 743 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:29,239 Speaker 1: for the twenty first century. You know, I think that 744 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:32,879 Speaker 1: the fact that wherever you are, you know we are. 745 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,480 Speaker 1: This story from a little two hundred and forty person 746 00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:39,040 Speaker 1: company in New Zealand has now played in eighty four 747 00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:44,440 Speaker 1: countries worldwide, with a global audience approaching five billion people. 748 00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:49,080 Speaker 1: Know why, Well, the answer is because how we work 749 00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:51,319 Speaker 1: today isn't fit for purpose. We've got to find a 750 00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:54,719 Speaker 1: new way and business has to take the lead on it. 751 00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,399 Speaker 2: I love that, Andrew. It was so good to chat 752 00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:02,439 Speaker 2: to you, so very very inspiring what you have done 753 00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:04,560 Speaker 2: and what you are continuing to do. So thank you 754 00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:06,120 Speaker 2: so much for your time. 755 00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:08,080 Speaker 1: Thank you very welcome. 756 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,759 Speaker 2: Hello there that is it for today's episode. If you 757 00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,120 Speaker 2: liked this show and maybe know someone else who might 758 00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:17,240 Speaker 2: be interested in the idea of a four day week, 759 00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:21,480 Speaker 2: why not share this episode with them? Thank you in 760 00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:23,520 Speaker 2: advance if you choose to do that. Ed. If you're 761 00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:26,680 Speaker 2: enjoying how I work, you might want to leave a 762 00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,799 Speaker 2: review in Apple Podcasts. I know I always ask that, 763 00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:33,160 Speaker 2: but seriously, thank you to the hundreds of people that 764 00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:36,400 Speaker 2: have left star ratings and all the beautiful reviews that 765 00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:38,839 Speaker 2: have been written. I read everyone and it's just so 766 00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:42,520 Speaker 2: delightful to get feedback from listeners. So thank you, thank you, 767 00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:45,480 Speaker 2: thank you. So that is it for today's show, and 768 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:46,919 Speaker 2: I will see you next time.