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Speaker 1: We do have kind of a multi stage process, and

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Speaker 1: we test all the basic skills that are required in

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Speaker 1: the job through job simulations, which I think are far

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Speaker 1: more effective than an interview. But I would say that

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Speaker 1: we have one secret weapon, and that would be the

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Speaker 1: Savile Professional Styles Test, which I know that there's lots

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Speaker 1: of psychometric tests or workplace style tests out there, that

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Speaker 1: we've found this one to be particularly useful and just

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Speaker 1: incredibly accurate. It really is like the Oracle. It just

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Speaker 1: really fast trucks getting to know people and their style.

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Speaker 1: And what's really great about it is that you, once

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Speaker 1: you interpret the results of the test, basically we design

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Speaker 1: our final interview with that candidate around the results of

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Speaker 1: the test.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics

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Speaker 2: used by the world's most successful people to get so

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Speaker 2: much out of their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha,

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Speaker 2: but I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral science

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Speaker 2: consultancy Inventium, and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize

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Speaker 2: my work date. Now, before we get to today's interview,

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Speaker 2: I just wanted to share a few things something I'm

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Speaker 2: thinking of doing with the shorter episodes that I release

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Speaker 2: on Tuesday is starting to respond to listener questions.

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Speaker 3: So if you've got stuff.

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Speaker 2: On your mind, maybe things about the world of work

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Speaker 2: and productivity, particularly in this really weird working world that

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Speaker 2: we're in at the moment with COVID.

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Speaker 3: I would love to hear from you.

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Speaker 2: My email is always in the show notes, which you

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Speaker 2: can click on if you well, it depends which app

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Speaker 2: you're listening to this episode from, but generally if you

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Speaker 2: click on the episode, you can scroll down to the

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Speaker 2: show notes. But my email is Amantha at inventium dot

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Speaker 2: com dot au.

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Speaker 3: So if there any questions on.

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Speaker 2: Your mind that you would like me to dig into

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Speaker 2: the research and answer in future episodes, please do that.

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Speaker 3: And a big.

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Speaker 2: Thank you to everyone that has left a review for

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Speaker 2: How I Work.

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Speaker 3: I think there are.

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Speaker 2: Something like three hundred plus five star reviews in Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 2: which is awesome because it could be quite lonely doing

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Speaker 2: a podcast, just me and my little studio, so it's

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Speaker 2: really awesome to hear from you. So if you are

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Speaker 2: enjoying How I Work, I am so appreciative to anyone

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Speaker 2: that leaves.

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Speaker 3: A review or writes some words, so thank you.

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Speaker 2: And also if you're enjoying how I work. People generally

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Speaker 2: find out about podcasts through word of mouth. I find,

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Speaker 2: so share the love of how I work if you

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Speaker 2: know other people that could.

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Speaker 3: Benefit from it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, let's get on with today's show. I'm very excited

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Speaker 2: to announce my guest today, someone that I've worked very

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Speaker 2: closely with for the last six years, six and a

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Speaker 2: half years even. Who is Michelle Lapoidevin for Mish as

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Speaker 2: I call her. So, Mish has worked with me in

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Speaker 2: Inventium for years. I feel like she's almost like my

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Speaker 2: right hand, and for the last year in a bit

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Speaker 2: she's actually been running Inventium. So in April twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 2: she took on the role of CEO of Inventium and

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Speaker 2: she has been doing an absolute stellar job.

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Speaker 3: I just love Mish.

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Speaker 2: She's an amazing strategic thinker, great at going big picture,

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Speaker 2: but also great at the details as well, and definitely

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Speaker 2: keeps me organized and challenges my thinking all the time,

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Speaker 2: which I love. Now, when I sent this episode to

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Speaker 2: my dad, who edits all of these episodes, he said,

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Speaker 2: oh goodness, you're giving away all of Inventium's secrets, which

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Speaker 2: I love that he said that, because I think that's

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Speaker 2: exactly what this episode is. This is insight not only

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Speaker 2: to how INTMCEO Mish works, who is as obsessed with

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Speaker 2: productivity as I am, but we talk a lot about

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Speaker 2: the experiments that we've tried to invent him over the

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Speaker 2: years in terms of trying to create an amazing place

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Speaker 2: to work. So I really hope you like this episode.

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Speaker 2: It's quite a personal one because you know, this is

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Speaker 2: the workplace that I've been working on for the last

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Speaker 2: fourteen years and that Miss and I very actively shape

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Speaker 2: every day. So on that note, let's head over to

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Speaker 2: Mish to hear about how she works.

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Speaker 3: Mish, Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 1: It's awesome to finally be here.

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Speaker 2: I feel like this interview has been months, if not

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Speaker 2: like a year in the making, so I'm really excited

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Speaker 2: to be sitting down with you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. It has been a long time in

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Speaker 1: the making. A lot has certainly happened recently and over

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Speaker 1: last year, but good to finally do this.

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Speaker 3: Definitely.

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 2: So look, I'll probably say this in the introduction, but

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Speaker 2: you're the CEO of Inventium and you have been since

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Speaker 2: April last year, so that's that is. Like we're in

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Speaker 2: July now as we're recording this so over a year,

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Speaker 2: a year and a couple of months, and I'm really

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Speaker 2: keen to delve into how you work. Obviously, we think

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Speaker 2: a lot about productivity, our own productivity, the team productivity,

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Speaker 2: and culture and Inventium and I'm key to sort of

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Speaker 2: ask you a whole lot about that.

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Speaker 3: And the thing that I want to start.

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Speaker 2: With, which is interesting because it doesn't make the situation

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Speaker 2: unique now but it certainly did pre COVID is that

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Speaker 2: you were and still are a remote CEO, and that

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Speaker 2: you are based in Port Macquarie and the majority of

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Speaker 2: Inventium is based in Melbourne.

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Speaker 3: So I want to start there.

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Speaker 1: And when you.

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Speaker 2: Started being CEO, if you remember back in April twenty nineteen, like,

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Speaker 2: what was that like?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, certainly so, I've been working remote for about two

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Speaker 1: and a half years now, but you're right that I

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Speaker 1: did only take on CEO about a year ago. So

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Speaker 1: first of all, that was a little bit weird because

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Speaker 1: it was like, Oh, I've just got this awesome opportunity

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Speaker 1: presented to me, but I'm remote. How is that going

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Speaker 1: to work? When I'm separated from the team? Can that work?

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Speaker 1: Being a CEO remote? And it's only took me a

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Speaker 1: while to kind of think about that and to work

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Speaker 1: out whether that would would work or not. And certainly,

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Speaker 1: with your support and with the team support, I did

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Speaker 1: take that role on and I actually feel like I've

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Speaker 1: been able to do a much better job of being

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Speaker 1: a CEO working remotely, which probably sounds a little bit weird,

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Speaker 1: but I really believe that.

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Speaker 3: It does sound weird. And why do you think that is?

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Speaker 2: Because I'm sure that, like if they're and I'm sure

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Speaker 2: that there are CEOs listening to this, probably thinking how

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Speaker 2: could you be a better CEO when you're not with

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Speaker 2: your people physically, Like, why is that?

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Speaker 3: Do you think?

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Speaker 1: Probably the biggest one is that I feel like I

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Speaker 1: just have the space to really think clearly, which does

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Speaker 1: have a really big impact on the quality of my work.

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Speaker 1: So I am lucky enough, as he said, to live

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Speaker 1: in the beautiful pot mcquarie, which is on the mid

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Speaker 1: north coast of New South Wales, so that in itself

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Speaker 1: is a much less stressful living environment than the city.

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Speaker 1: I don't have to deal with the commute, I don't

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Speaker 1: have to deal with traffic. I do have the beauty

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Speaker 1: of going and looking at the ocean every day, and

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Speaker 1: certainly this kind of space really increased the time and

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Speaker 1: as I say, clarity for my critical and strategic thinking.

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Speaker 1: So I like to think about it as consistently thinking upstream.

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Speaker 1: So that's the book by Dan Heath, who I know

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Speaker 1: you've had in this podcast, which I absolutely love, and

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Speaker 1: he talks about being able to solve problems before they

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Speaker 1: come on, or making those big picture, proactive changes as

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Speaker 1: opposed to those reactive or band aid changes. And I

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Speaker 1: feel like working remotely really enables me to have the

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Speaker 1: time to think upstream that I wouldn't normally have when

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Speaker 1: I'm kind of caught up in the day today kind

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Speaker 1: of office environment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's interesting with that because you prior to

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Speaker 2: being remote, you did what you did, live and work

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Speaker 2: in the Melbourne office for what like four years or

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Speaker 2: something like that, So give experience what it's like to

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Speaker 2: be caught up in the kind of face to face

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Speaker 2: culture and world of Inventim's main office. And with and

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Speaker 2: again pre COVID, because things have changed in terms of

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Speaker 2: all our working rhythms now, but pre COVID you.

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Speaker 3: Had a bit of a rhythm.

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Speaker 2: Can you share the rhythm that you had in terms

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Speaker 2: of working from hot mcquarie having that space to go

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Speaker 2: deep and creative and strategic, and also balancing that with

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Speaker 2: getting in amongst it.

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Speaker 1: In the Melbourne office, Yeah, so absolutely I used to

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Speaker 1: balance that. And one of the biggest things there is

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Speaker 1: that for those that know me, you'll know that I

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Speaker 1: am quite a bit of an introvert. So actually being

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Speaker 1: in the office face to face all the time and

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Speaker 1: having to be on and switched on with people really

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Speaker 1: took a lot of energy, and I'd find myself going

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Speaker 1: into the office and interacting with people a lot and

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Speaker 1: then coming home at the end of the day and

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Speaker 1: having to do my thinking work then. So I was

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Speaker 1: kind of working like double the time. So I feel

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Speaker 1: like when I've moved remotely, it's really enabled me to

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Speaker 1: kind of dip in and dip out of that face

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Speaker 1: to face or kind of more collaborative environment more effectively,

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Speaker 1: because when I do go to the office now, I

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Speaker 1: can be totally present and I can have maximum energy

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Speaker 1: for people and our collaboration tasks. But then I'm able

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Speaker 1: to take a step back and step away from that

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Speaker 1: to really have that time to recharge my batteries and

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Speaker 1: to think really clearly. And while I did try to

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Speaker 1: manage that. When I was in Melbourne, I kind of

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Speaker 1: still held that guilt, a little bit of you know,

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Speaker 1: I should be in the office more often, whereas this

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Speaker 1: has really given me the permission to create the best

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Speaker 1: balance for the team but also myself.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's interesting, and I'm trying to remember what your

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Speaker 2: rhythm was around coming to Melbourne pre COVID. I want

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Speaker 2: to say it was every third or fourth week that

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Speaker 2: you'd spend the week in Melbourne and then everything else

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Speaker 2: in Port mcquarie.

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Speaker 1: Is that so it was every second or third week,

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Speaker 1: depending on what we had on, But I'd come down,

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Speaker 1: I'd spend two or three three days in the office

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Speaker 1: and that was very much for that face to face

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Speaker 1: team time, lots of collaboration, catch up with people, make

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Speaker 1: sure that everyone's on track, and then come back to

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Speaker 1: putan quory.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think that was a really interesting balance, and I

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Speaker 2: think for people listening that I mean, I imagine a

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Speaker 2: lot of listeners are still working remotely, but I think

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Speaker 2: it's an interesting model to think about, particularly as a leader,

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Speaker 2: that balance of having that face time depending on what

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Speaker 2: the new normal looks like in terms of remote versus

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Speaker 2: non remote working, but also having that distance to step

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Speaker 2: back and reflect. And I know we'll probably get into

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Speaker 2: talking more about our four day work week experiment a

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Speaker 2: little bit later, but I remember when I had Andrew

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Speaker 2: Barnes from Perpetual Guardian on the show who pie Neared

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Speaker 2: the four day week, where essentially you do five days

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Speaker 2: work but in four normal days, not like ten twelve

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Speaker 2: hour days. One of the things that Andrew had got

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Speaker 2: out of that is that having that three day weekend,

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Speaker 2: if you like, was just that chance to step back

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Speaker 2: from the business and actually reflect, and he would find

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Speaker 2: that his best ideas would come then when he was

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Speaker 2: away from the day to day busyness of it all.

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Speaker 1: I've absolutely found the same thing. And interestingly, one of

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Speaker 1: the triggers that I used to have for doing this

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Speaker 1: reflective work was on planes. So interesting, I actually am

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Speaker 1: not one of those people that does a lot of

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Speaker 1: work on planes. I deliberately use that time to deeply reflect,

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Speaker 1: and then once I stopped traveling with COVID, I kind

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Speaker 1: of lost that time. So now that the gift of

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Speaker 1: the fifth our experiments definitely inadvertently giving me that time

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Speaker 1: back as well, that protected time every week to make

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Speaker 1: sure that I am doing some really solid thinking.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the Gift of the Fifth, which is what we

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Speaker 2: have called our day week, and look on that note,

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Speaker 2: why don't we delve into that. I do want to

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Speaker 2: come back to a few other things about being a

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Speaker 2: remote CEO, but Gift of the Fifth can you can

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Speaker 2: you maybe explain to listeners.

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Speaker 3: I think I've I've maybe talked about it in.

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Speaker 2: A couple of episodes briefly, but can you describe how

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Speaker 2: this idea came about for invent him and what it

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Speaker 2: is why we've decided to try it out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely So. Obviously it's been a really challenging time

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Speaker 1: with COVID, and one of them there is that I

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Speaker 1: wanted all of our team to focus on for the

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Speaker 1: next six months was around how we could kick goals

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Speaker 1: in work and in life while things are a little

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Speaker 1: bit crazy and imperfect. And so we all sat down

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Speaker 1: as a team and we did an ideation session around

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Speaker 1: how we could achieve this, and one of the ideas

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Speaker 1: that came out of it was the four day work week, which,

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Speaker 1: as you say, was pioneered by Andrew Barnes in New Zealand,

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Speaker 1: and certainly we see it as an opportunity to not

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Speaker 1: only turbocharge our productivity in the four days' work, but

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Speaker 1: also to give our people a fifth day, which, as

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Speaker 1: the name suggests, is a gift day where they can

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Speaker 1: give the gift to their family, or give the gift

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Speaker 1: to their friends, or go and volunteer for something they

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Speaker 1: believe in, or just do something good for themselves. And

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Speaker 1: by giving them that space where we're obviously hoping that

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Speaker 1: that makes them healthier and happier, but also it might

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Speaker 1: inadvertently give them the time to come up with a

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Speaker 1: new and wonderful idea for inventingum by using the power

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Speaker 1: of their unconscious mind on that fifth day. So it

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Speaker 1: is an experiment. We are running it for the next

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Speaker 1: six months and collecting some really robust data around that.

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Speaker 1: So look forward to checking back in in six months

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Speaker 1: to see how it's gone.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, we're literally collecting data every week on

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Speaker 2: that one and again for those that hang on four

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Speaker 2: day work week. What's about the easiest way to explain

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Speaker 2: it and how Andrew talks about it is the one

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Speaker 2: hundred eighty one hundred rule, where it's basically one hundred

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Speaker 2: percent remuneration is if you're full time eighty percent of

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Speaker 2: the time, so four days and one hundred percent productivity,

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Speaker 2: So you're essentially expected to achieve your work goals to

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Speaker 2: like one hundred percent of the time and but in

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Speaker 2: only four dates.

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Speaker 3: So that's just to clarify that.

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Speaker 2: How have you found that your behavior has changed with

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Speaker 2: Gift of the fifth because we're four weeks into the

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Speaker 2: experiment as of this week.

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Speaker 1: I believe one of the things that I've kind of

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Speaker 1: really focused on is reducing what would call shallow work.

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Speaker 1: So shallow work being that kind of non cognitively demanding

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Speaker 1: stuff that just takes up your day, so your your emails,

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Speaker 1: or you know, connecting the dots with things, basic tasks

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Speaker 1: that tend to take up a lot of time. So

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Speaker 1: one of the things that I've focused on a lot

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Speaker 1: is reducing the amount of shallow work that I do.

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Speaker 1: And one of the best things I've found to do

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Speaker 1: that is to basically trigger, automate, and integrate, and by

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Speaker 1: that I mean do not rely on your memory for anything.

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Speaker 1: It takes up way too much energy thinking about things

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Speaker 1: that you might have forgotten, So definitely make sure that

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Speaker 1: things are triggered by say automated reminders for things, or

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Speaker 1: use tools like one of my favorite tools is Zaphia,

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Speaker 1: which is a tool that when one action is generated,

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Speaker 1: another action follows automatically. So, for example, I used to

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Speaker 1: spend time adding names to a mailing list, whereas now

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Speaker 1: you can set up a thing whereby they will automatically

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Speaker 1: get added, and then you'll get a notification saying that

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Speaker 1: that's happened, and you don't have to touch anything, and whillah,

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Speaker 1: your mailing list miraculously increases. I also integrate a lot

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Speaker 1: of things, so I use Google sheets to kind of

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Speaker 1: cut out that middleman. So if I'm collecting data from something,

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Speaker 1: I ordermadically get it pushed to a Google sheet, and

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Speaker 1: then a trigger when that's happened. So by basically introducing

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Speaker 1: those kinds of things has dramatically reduced the amount of

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Speaker 1: like little tasks that distract you from doing the more

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Speaker 1: important things in your role.

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Speaker 3: Wow, that's awesome. I didn't even know that you were

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Speaker 3: doing that.

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Speaker 2: I know that we use zaper a lot or zapia,

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Speaker 2: however you say it as a business.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so if you made a lot more changes.

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Speaker 2: Come the first of July, when this experiment started to

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Speaker 2: help do all that and reduce shallow work time.

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Speaker 1: I would say that I already did have a lot

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Speaker 1: of good habits, but there's always room for improvement. And certainly,

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Speaker 1: what it does is it challenges you to go, how

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Speaker 1: can I better do that? So, you know, even we're

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Speaker 1: very lucky at inventing him to have a virtual assistant

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Speaker 1: in the Philippines called a lane who's awesome, and certainly,

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Speaker 1: you know sometimes you just take it for granted. She's

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Speaker 1: always there that if I want to have the fifth

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Speaker 1: day off, I know that I need to use her

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Speaker 1: more effectively in my four days. So I've been able

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Speaker 1: to kind of send more work to her that potentially

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Speaker 1: I would have just normally done myself to fill in

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Speaker 1: my five days.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I've been doing the same. I'm loving having a

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Speaker 2: Lane back. I was going a little bit insane when

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Speaker 2: we had to be without Elaine for a few months.

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Speaker 3: And that makes such a big difference for anyone listening

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Speaker 3: if you have not, like regardless.

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Speaker 2: Of whether you work for someone or work for yourself

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Speaker 2: or a small business owner, get a virtual assistant. Go

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Speaker 2: to upwork dot com or maybe freelancer, I don't know

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Speaker 2: if they have them, and get a great virtual assistant,

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Speaker 2: train them in. Remember what Dan Heath, we mentioned earlier

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Speaker 2: calls recurring irritance, So just those things that come up

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Speaker 2: daily or weekly at work that you're like, oh God,

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Speaker 2: I've got to do that again. And generally they're sort

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Speaker 2: of quite dull, boring, monotonous tasks, and get your virtual

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Speaker 2: assistant doing those.

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Speaker 3: Because they will do an awesome job of them.

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Speaker 2: At Invention we talk a lot about phonotypes, and I

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Speaker 2: talk about that a little bit on the podcast. The

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Speaker 2: idea of understanding what you know individually your sort of

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Speaker 2: twenty four hour energy sleep wake cycle looks like, and

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Speaker 2: doing your deep work when you're at peak brain power

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Speaker 2: or peak cognitive alertness, doing more shallow work when you're

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Speaker 2: having a.

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Speaker 3: Dip, and then everyone has a rebound later on.

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Speaker 2: And I think you're the only what chronotype researchers call

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Speaker 2: owls at Inventium. I think you're the only one, aren't you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So this is interesting because we're at Inventing, we're a

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Speaker 2: team of lux and middlebirds, which basically means most of

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Speaker 2: us are at peak energy in the morning, some of

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Speaker 2: us very early in the morning, where as being an

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Speaker 2: owl mish you do your best deep work, sort of

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Speaker 2: strategic and creative thinking work in the evenings and at night,

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Speaker 2: and it's not unusual for me to get an email

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Speaker 2: from you at like nine or ten o'clock at night,

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Speaker 2: but be highly unusual to get an email from you

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Speaker 2: at eight o'clock in the morning, because that's that's you know,

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Speaker 2: you work into your chronotype.

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Speaker 3: So can you tell me about.

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Speaker 2: How that how that works when essentially you're on a

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Speaker 2: different chronotype to everyone in the team.

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Speaker 1: So taking it back a little bit, before I knew

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Speaker 1: about chronotypes, I really used to have this thing where

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Speaker 1: I felt like not being up at six am and

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Speaker 1: having you know, not exercised and you know, save the

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Speaker 1: world prior to seven o'clock. That almost felt like a weakness,

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Speaker 1: particularly as a CEO, Like there's so many amazing CEOs

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Speaker 1: out there that'll tell you the billion things that they

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Speaker 1: have done before six am. And certainly if I did that,

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Speaker 1: and I did try for a little bit, going all right,

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Speaker 1: I need to just get up at that time, I

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Speaker 1: would like literally be fast asleep by two or three o'clock.

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Speaker 1: So you are not getting the best out of me

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Speaker 1: at or by forcing me to do that time. So

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Speaker 1: it was a real breakthrough for me. I think to

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Speaker 1: learn about chronotypes and basically acknowledging that your brain has

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Speaker 1: a normal rhythm that it follows, and by taking advantage

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Speaker 1: of that is actually a massive strength, not a weakness.

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Speaker 1: So I very much align my working hours to this

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Speaker 1: chronotype or rhythm. And as you said, I am kind

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Speaker 1: of I'd probably call it a middle bird with our tendency,

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Speaker 1: so I'm not a complete like one am in the

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Speaker 1: morning kind of person. But what it looks like is

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Speaker 1: that I'll probably have a peek around eleven o'clock, so

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Speaker 1: I would say to the team that my brain is

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Speaker 1: not working before ten, and then I'll probably start my

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Speaker 1: first deep work cycle at around eleven, and then I

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Speaker 1: tend to get a second wind at a round three

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Speaker 1: or four o'clock again in the afternoon, and then I

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Speaker 1: will do my kind of shallow task or that non

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Speaker 1: cognitively demanding stuff. Potentially it's seven or eight o'clock at night.

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Speaker 1: So aligning my day to this has been a real

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Speaker 1: game changer for me.

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Speaker 2: I find that teams that we work with can really

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Speaker 2: struggle with this when well, firstly, they don't know each

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Speaker 2: other's chronot and so everyone just kind of works to

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Speaker 2: a one size fits all model, which is crazy, but

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Speaker 2: then kind of going, Okay, how do we align that

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Speaker 2: as a team. And I just think everyone knows that

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Speaker 2: about emish. Everyone knows when your brain is at its

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Speaker 2: peak and when it's not. And not a good idea

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Speaker 2: to schedule a meeting with you at eight thirty in

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Speaker 2: the morning, even though like some of us like meet

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Speaker 2: Like I was very lucky before COVID, but now I'm

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Speaker 2: finding like I've shifted from waking up at about five

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Speaker 2: thirty to now probably about six thirty is my average

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Speaker 2: wake time at the moment, and I'm just kind of

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Speaker 2: going with that. But generally I'm in top brain form

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Speaker 2: at about seven thirty am to generally about sort of

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Speaker 2: ten or eleven is my peak. But I want to

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Speaker 2: go back to some of the remote CEO stuff because

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Speaker 2: for the whole time that we've been in this global pandemic,

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Speaker 2: you've been CEO, and this is probably I reckon. Look,

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Speaker 2: there have been a few challenging things that Inventim's been

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Speaker 2: there over the years, but this is probably for many reasons,

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Speaker 2: been the most challenging or maybe in the top three

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Speaker 2: most challenging times, and you've been CEO during it. My

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Speaker 2: goodness like baptism of fire.

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Speaker 3: So I want to go.

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Speaker 2: Back to March, which definitely contained a couple of the

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Speaker 2: hardest weeks that you and I have ever had of

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Speaker 2: working together. And we've worked together for about six and

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Speaker 2: a half years now, and that was in March when

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Speaker 2: everything was shutting down. There was no travel, and the

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Speaker 2: majority of work that we do in invent here is

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Speaker 2: delivered face to face in workshops or events, keynotes, training programs,

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Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff. And within about a week

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Speaker 2: or two weeks, pretty much every job that we had

443
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:52,119
Speaker 2: in the pipeline was either postponed or canceled. That was

444
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 2: a crazy fortnight and we and we had data available.

445
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 2: It was imperfect and incomplete, but we had data available

446
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,800
Speaker 2: bull and we decided that we needed to make some

447
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:07,960
Speaker 2: very quick, informed as possible decisions, and we had to

448
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:14,200
Speaker 2: make four staff redundant, which was a heart wrenching, horrible,

449
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,960
Speaker 2: horrible week. I would say easily the hardest week I've

450
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,639
Speaker 2: had an Inventium, having never had to make anyone redundant.

451
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 2: And I want to know for you what you learned

452
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,720
Speaker 2: from that period, because we had to have those conversations

453
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,400
Speaker 2: over Zoom, like we couldn't even have those conversations face

454
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:28,879
Speaker 2: to face.

455
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 1: So yeah, absolutely right, it's a it has been a

456
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:35,199
Speaker 1: really challenging time. But I think one of the ways

457
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 1: that I've reframed it to myself is, while it's been challenging,

458
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,920
Speaker 1: what a great learning and career opportunity to have to navigate.

459
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:45,879
Speaker 1: I think that when I took on CEO role, I

460
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,160
Speaker 1: certainly wasn't looking for it to be easy. I wanted

461
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,480
Speaker 1: it to be hard, and look, there you go. There

462
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 1: was a massive challenge that was thrown up. Think kind

463
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 1: of my first year that certainly you wouldn't learn how

464
00:23:56,359 --> 00:24:00,080
Speaker 1: to navigate by sitting in an MBA school.

465
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:01,920
Speaker 2: Going to say did you learn that in your MBA

466
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,160
Speaker 2: amish like how to manage through a global pandemic?

467
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 3: Was that a subject?

468
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:10,360
Speaker 1: Definitely not? So yeah, no, it's been you know what

469
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 1: we would cause and it's an unexpected upside of it, right,

470
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 1: And I've certainly, you know, told the team to reframe

471
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,919
Speaker 1: it like that as well as like, what is the

472
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,360
Speaker 1: career learnings that you will all get out of this,

473
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 1: even though it's obviously a really challenging time. So yeah,

474
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,880
Speaker 1: like lots to learn. One of the good things that

475
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,119
Speaker 1: I came across at the very start of this as well.

476
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,360
Speaker 1: At that early March was a really great article by

477
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:41,160
Speaker 1: Deloitte around resilient leadership, and it talked about the need

478
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 1: to really lead from the heart and the head, and

479
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 1: it really emphasized the need to be really empathic to

480
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 1: your employees and your customers, but it also emphasized the

481
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 1: need to really take that hard, decisive, rational action to

482
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 1: really protect the business from the inevitable financial issues that

483
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 1: were going to arise. So basically, you couldn't just fall

484
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 1: into the trap of going all soft. You had to

485
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,440
Speaker 1: make these these really tough decisions, and as you say,

486
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 1: that was very much from imperfect data, so it was

487
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 1: just making sense of the information as best you could

488
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 1: at the time, and certainly on the on the redundancies front.

489
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,360
Speaker 1: I guess what I'm most proud of there is that

490
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,920
Speaker 1: we did make those decisions really quickly, and that we

491
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,640
Speaker 1: acted really fast as soon as we knew that that's

492
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,399
Speaker 1: what we had to do to protect, you know, the

493
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 1: financial performance of the business. And there was absolutely no

494
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 1: easy way to do it, but I am glad that

495
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,679
Speaker 1: we did it fast, and definitely we tried to do

496
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 1: it with as much empathy as we possibly could. I

497
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 1: think if we didn't do it quickly, where I would

498
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,920
Speaker 1: have personally struggled as maintaining authenticity in that time, because

499
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: it would have been incredibly hard to do our morning

500
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: brief things with the team and paint this picture of

501
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,360
Speaker 1: optimism and that everything was going to be okay when

502
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 1: behind the scenes we knew that, you know, there was

503
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 1: going to have to be some big changes. So I

504
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 1: think that quick action is really really essential.

505
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:13,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's so true.

506
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,640
Speaker 2: I remember like that week when it was all happening

507
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,679
Speaker 2: and we were waiting to get more data from one

508
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:22,719
Speaker 2: of our team members so that we could, you know,

509
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:24,639
Speaker 2: make the best decision possible. But as soon as we

510
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 2: got the data, I remember we're just like, well, we

511
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,439
Speaker 2: just have to do this this afternoon, Like you know,

512
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,120
Speaker 2: there's absolutely no point giving it one more night.

513
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 3: You know that's not going to benefit anyone.

514
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 2: And I also think like it's you know, it's interesting

515
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 2: sort of like when you think about managing from the

516
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 2: head and the heart and how to have those conversations

517
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 2: in a way that like is just treating people as

518
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 2: a human. I remember we probably spent hours like thinking

519
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,919
Speaker 2: and talking about how best to have these conversations that

520
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,679
Speaker 2: were actually, you know, quite short conversations in the scheme

521
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:02,120
Speaker 2: of things, you know, as I think most redundancy conversations are.

522
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:07,160
Speaker 2: But I mean, yeah, man, I remember both of us

523
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 2: being in tears many times during those weeks, during that

524
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 2: that particular week where it all happened.

525
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 1: And the Zoom thing was an extra complication in all

526
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 1: of this, Like normally redundancies you would absolutely do face

527
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 1: to face, and certainly reflecting on that, one of the

528
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,920
Speaker 1: positives of doing it via zoom was that people did

529
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 1: have the privacy of their own homes when they were

530
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 1: receiving difficult news, and that obviously, you know, was upsetting.

531
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 1: But then I think for us, like it was really

532
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 1: hard to feel like we were leaving them without support,

533
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 1: even though I know you and I both thought about

534
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: that a lot. And then I think the other thing

535
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: was that if I was to do it again, I

536
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 1: would definitely overcompensate more for the fact that because we

537
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 1: were all remote and it was via zoom, we weren't

538
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 1: able to give people that added extra closure and proper

539
00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 1: sendoffs that you would probably normally do.

540
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 2: And it was funny, like we reflected on that week

541
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 2: a lot, and it was such a weird situation where

542
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 2: like you couldn't have like team Goodbye drinks, which would

543
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 2: be the natural thing to do. It was like, you know, God,

544
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 2: how do you provide a sense of closure given all

545
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 2: the health constraints essentially that we're working within. Yeah, but yeah,

546
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 2: I want to know also.

547
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:27,120
Speaker 3: Because I know.

548
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:28,679
Speaker 2: Something you think about, like in terms of being a

549
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 2: remote CEO, is the importance of routines And can you

550
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,400
Speaker 2: talk about, like I just guess how you think about

551
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 2: routine and how you use that in your world, you know,

552
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 2: particularly in times that are like you know, there's so

553
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 2: much uncertainty around. If you look at the kind of

554
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 2: three stages of moving through a challenge or a crisis,

555
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 2: you look at first being the response phase, then you

556
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 2: look at the recovery phase, and then hopefully by phase

557
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 2: thread you're back to.

558
00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 1: Thriving and better than ever. And what we found during

559
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 1: the response phase or not what we found, but what

560
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 1: we deliberately did is that we let kind of many

561
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 1: routines and normal processes laps. We wanted to make things

562
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: really really simple for people, give them the space to

563
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 1: comprehend and adjust to what was going on both at

564
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 1: work and at home, so we let a lot of

565
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: those normal processes go. But I feel that an important

566
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 1: sign that we're moving to the recovery phase and that

567
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 1: we are thinking long term, we had to reinstate those routines,

568
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 1: and this was really a signal that things can go

569
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 1: back to a new normal, and they are going back

570
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: to a new normal. So this is things like our

571
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 1: review cycles and our planning cycles, and our teen days

572
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 1: team meetings, performance reviews, all those things that kind of

573
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 1: signify a team rhythm. And I think that putting all

574
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 1: those things back in place and creating that regularity and

575
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: familiarity really gave people kind of the certainty that they

576
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 1: need during this time. Yeah, I know that you had

577
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 1: don price from it Lastian on here a couple of

578
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: weeks ago, and I love Dom and I love what

579
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: he said about people not actually struggling with the concept

580
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 1: of change, but struggling with the concept of uncertainty. So

581
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: our role as leaders is absolutely to create certainty. And

582
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 1: I feel like these these routines and team rhythms are

583
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: critical to providing that certainty for people.

584
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and look, that might be a good note to

585
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 2: talk a little bit more about sort of a few

586
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 2: of the things that we do do in Inventium that

587
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 2: do make us unique in terms of how we run

588
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 2: because probably about four years ago now we moved to

589
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 2: a holocrisy and a hole loocrisy. Well, I might let

590
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 2: you describe it, Mish. Can you sort of talk about

591
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 2: like what a holocrisy is and how that actually works

592
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 2: at Inventium.

593
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, really simply, a holocracy basically means no bosses.

594
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: It's very much a flat structure that is directed by

595
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 1: self managed teams. If you want to research more about it,

596
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: Gary Hamill is one of the people that have written

597
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 1: about it the most. But essentially one of the main

598
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: reasons why we did it is that we recognize that

599
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: most senior people were spending a lot of time managing

600
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 1: people as opposed to making things or doing more creative

601
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 1: or strategic work for the business. And we also recognize

602
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 1: that culturally, the kinds of people that we were hiring

603
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 1: were all of these really self driven, autonomous people that

604
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: really didn't want a manager. They wanted a coach. They

605
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 1: wanted someone that could, you know, steer them in the

606
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 1: right direction, but they wanted to have the scope to

607
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 1: be able to forge their own path. So both from

608
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: a I guess a structural and a productivity sense, but

609
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: also from a cultural sense. Removing bosses essentially four years

610
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: ago was one of the best things that we've done.

611
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 2: I remember we were sitting down and going through all

612
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 2: the holocrisy research and trying to make sense of it

613
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 2: and finding these kind of gaps and questions that hadn't

614
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 2: really been answered. And for you, four years on now,

615
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 2: what have been the biggest lessons for you in terms

616
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 2: of running a holocrasy?

617
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 1: So I think certainly it is about reinforcing the key

618
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 1: aspects into the culture. So one of the things we

619
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 1: talk about often is that we want to build this

620
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 1: mindset of thinking like the founder. So that means that

621
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 1: people are empowered to make decisions as if it was

622
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 1: their own business. We don't have really strict policies and

623
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: procedures around every little thing. We just say, well, if

624
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 1: it was your own business, what decision would you make here?

625
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 1: And that's very much kind of ingrained in our culture,

626
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 1: and I think that a lot of people really enjoy

627
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 1: being able to think like that some of the other things. So, certainly,

628
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 1: because we're focusing on coaching rather than managing, we have

629
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 1: had to upskill people in being able to be an

630
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 1: effective coach, and that's something that we're still absolutely working on. That.

631
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 1: The system relies heavily on feedback, so again, being able

632
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 1: to really give and receive effective feedback at any time,

633
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 1: not just waiting for review season for instance, is a

634
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 1: skill that we've had to absolutely grow. The most difficult

635
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 1: bit that I would say is it is a hard

636
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 1: system to create a clear progression pathway for people. There

637
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 1: is still this really heavy association between your titles equaling

638
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 1: progress and promotions to a better title meaning that you're

639
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 1: good at your job. And the system really relies on

640
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: progression via learning and mastery and pay as opposed to

641
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 1: ticking a box to move up a lie all in

642
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: a level of hierarchy. So certainly that doesn't suit everyone.

643
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 2: Some people definitely prefer that that hierarchical approach that certainly

644
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 2: the mastery and learning focus I think is a much

645
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 2: more fulfilling process to take in the long term, definitely,

646
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 2: and we think a lot about that during recruitment as well.

647
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,760
Speaker 2: So there's a very specific type of person that fits

648
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 2: really really well at Inventium. It does tend to be

649
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 2: I find a bit of a dichotomy where it's like

650
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 2: you thrive at inventium.

651
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 3: Or it just doesn't work.

652
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 2: There's not much middle ground, I think is probably what

653
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 2: we've learned. And so like, for you, what have you

654
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 2: learned around recruitment, Like what do we do well in recruitment,

655
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 2: because I think now, I mean, god, we've gone wrong

656
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 2: some of the time, years years ago, but now like

657
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 2: I think we're really good. I think at recruitment in

658
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 2: terms of identifying the kind of people that will really thrive. Like,

659
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 2: what do you put that down to? What are the

660
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 2: big things for you that we have learned through many

661
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 2: iterations to do well with recruitment.

662
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, so obviously we do have kind of a multi

663
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 1: stage process, and we test all the basic skills that

664
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 1: are required in the job through job simulations, which I

665
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 1: think are far more effective than an interview. But I

666
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,879
Speaker 1: would say that we have one secret weapon, and that

667
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 1: would be the Savile Professional Styles Test, which I know

668
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: that there's lots of psychometric tests or workplace style tests

669
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 1: out there, that we've found this one to be particularly

670
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 1: useful and just incredibly accurate. It really is like the Oracle.

671
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 1: And I'm totally not paid by Subtle to say this,

672
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: by the way, it just really fast trucks getting to

673
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 1: know people and their style. And what's really great about

674
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,399
Speaker 1: it is that you once you interpret the results of

675
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 1: the test, Basically we design our final interview with that

676
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 1: care candidate around the results of the test. So we

677
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: extract pieces of information and find out from the candidate

678
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 1: themselves whether that resonates first and foremost, and then secondly,

679
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 1: what that looks like practically. Is that something that's just

680
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 1: a side effect of a previous bad experience that they'd had,

681
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:23,720
Speaker 1: or is that their actual preference? And it really helps

682
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:29,800
Speaker 1: us to dig into people's motivations and needs and styles

683
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 1: of working, everything from how they think to how they

684
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 1: organize themselves and their kind of day to day productivity

685
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 1: to how they interact socially with others. It really helps

686
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,720
Speaker 1: us to paint this really holistic picture to make sure

687
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 1: that you know that they will thrive in the role.

688
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 1: Like recruitment is very much a two way straight and

689
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:55,280
Speaker 1: this test is amazing at making sure that our culture

690
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 1: is one that the candidate will really thrive in.

691
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 3: That couldn't more.

692
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 2: I remember I had an interview on the ABC podcast

693
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 2: This Working Life with Lisa Leong awesome podcast if you

694
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,839
Speaker 2: haven't checked it out, And the episode was all about

695
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 2: psychometric testing, and I was raving about the savel Like

696
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 2: I refer to it, it's like a clairvoyant, you know,

697
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:19,399
Speaker 2: if you believe in that kind of thing.

698
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:23,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

699
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 2: So it is like it is seriously the closest thing

700
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 2: that I have found to a clairvoyant.

701
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 1: Like it.

702
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 2: The way it predicts people's behavior is like nothing I

703
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 2: have ever seen.

704
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,280
Speaker 3: Like it's insane, and I.

705
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 2: Had to do As an organizational psychologist, we do like

706
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 2: a whole unit around psychometric testing. And there's lots of

707
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 2: OK tests out there, but I also think a lot

708
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,720
Speaker 2: of them are quite easy to know what they're asking

709
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 2: and if you have a sense of what the job

710
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 2: is looking for. In the case of recruitment tests, and

711
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:55,359
Speaker 2: let's assume it's not an ability test, it's more about

712
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 2: a preferences and styles kind of test, you can kind

713
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 2: of fake it a little bit, but you really can't.

714
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 2: With the savele it is very like, look, you can't

715
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 2: fake it. And if you have tried to fake it with.

716
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 3: We can tell.

717
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 2: We can tell through the score and we can go

718
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 2: we can't really interpret this, and we have had a

719
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 2: couple over the years where we're like, they've totally faked it.

720
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 2: Their results are completely inconsistent, and we just can't use

721
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:19,720
Speaker 2: this data.

722
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 3: It's unusable.

723
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,360
Speaker 2: So it's oh my gosh, I wish we had shares

724
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 2: in the savile Mishi.

725
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 3: After this week that we've done exactly.

726
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 2: But anyway, maybe that'll be like a little sad investment project.

727
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 2: Now I want to talk about OKRs, which stands for

728
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 2: Objectives and Key Results, which is how the method we've

729
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,919
Speaker 2: used for setting goals and for individuals within the company

730
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 2: setting their own goals. I think we've used OKRs for

731
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,879
Speaker 2: probably about the same time as we've been a holocracy,

732
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 2: I think, And so OKAY ours we're championed by Intel

733
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 2: and then Google by it by John Dora, And there's

734
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 2: a great book Measure What Matters that John Door wrote

735
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 2: about OKRs.

736
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 3: Can you talk a bit about how how we use okays?

737
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,359
Speaker 2: And I think, particularly in the context of holocracy, where

738
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 2: you don't have managers, it can be quite hard to

739
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 2: determine pay rises, something as simple as pay rises that

740
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 2: companies generally have systems where the manager decides on your

741
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 2: pay rise. Can you talk a bit about how that

742
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 2: works at inventing because I think that's again like sort

743
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 2: of something that we've iterated a lot, and I think

744
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 2: we're sort of finally got it to something that works

745
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:23,760
Speaker 2: very well and very fairly.

746
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,240
Speaker 1: There is lots written about why you should not link

747
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,840
Speaker 1: operas to pay, so that's the first thing.

748
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 2: To call and I should and we call them okras

749
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 2: because we have an A for activities, So okay a's

750
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 2: but well okras or okays the same thing when we're

751
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 2: talking about it.

752
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I guess there's a lot of reasons why

753
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 1: people say not to most common ones you'll read are

754
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,800
Speaker 1: that if it's linked to pay, people won't set challenging

755
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 1: enough goals. The other thing that they'll say is that

756
00:39:56,160 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 1: people will overinflate their results, or the common one is

757
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:04,840
Speaker 1: that people don't collaborate as much because essentially they're so

758
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 1: focused on their own goals and getting a pay rise

759
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 1: that they don't want to help anyone else. Now, when

760
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 1: we were looking at this, we really wanted an objective

761
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 1: pay rise measure. We really didn't want it coming down

762
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 1: to a subjective opinion. There are all sorts of issues

763
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:23,359
Speaker 1: with that and biases and recency effects and stuff that

764
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 1: goes on there. We also didn't want to set up

765
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 1: some kind of separate goals for pay because everything that

766
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,799
Speaker 1: people were doing were so centered around their okayr is

767
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 1: that you know, what was the point of having a

768
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 1: separate goal sheet in addition to that that designates pay.

769
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 1: So we went about basically challenging all those assumptions that

770
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,799
Speaker 1: were presented out there of why you shouldn't link them

771
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 1: to pay and working out how to essentially reverse that

772
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 1: and make it work. So some of the things that

773
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 1: we did, I'd say one of the biggest ones is

774
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:59,319
Speaker 1: that we obsess over ensuring that the key results that

775
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:04,759
Speaker 1: people set a value based not activity based, And by

776
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:10,360
Speaker 1: value based, I mean the goal that your activities ladder

777
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 1: up to that connect with kind of the bigger company goals. So,

778
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 1: for example, a lot of people used to fall into

779
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 1: the trap of setting a goal such as do ten

780
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 1: business development calls every week. Now, the value of doing

781
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 1: those calls is to essentially generate x amount of revenue

782
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 1: for the business, Because if you go and do ten

783
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 1: business development calls a week and don't make a sale,

784
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 1: then that's not actually a great result, is it. So

785
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 1: we obsess over making sure that the goals are absolutely

786
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 1: value based, and then that therefore reduces the ability for

787
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 1: people to overinflate their results because they're very set value

788
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 1: metrics and people know that by achieving them it's a

789
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 1: good thing because essentially they are connecting in with the

790
00:41:57,480 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 1: bigger company goals.

791
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 3: And I should just to point out there.

792
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 2: So with objectives and key results, if you've never come

793
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 2: across this concept, how it works is that the objective

794
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 2: is the broader objective in the case of business development,

795
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:12,839
Speaker 2: to drive sales for the business, and then the key

796
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 2: results are where it's quantitative, so it's very objective, so

797
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 2: to deliverlex number of dollars in sales over this time period.

798
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 2: So that's how that works if you've never come across

799
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 2: OCAs before.

800
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 1: The other thing that we did was we set up

801
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,440
Speaker 1: a scoring system which is very unique to invent him

802
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:34,360
Speaker 1: and it is finally tuned and probably difficult to explain

803
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 1: quickly on a podcast, but essentially we enable people to

804
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 1: self score their operas based on a criteria and then

805
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 1: essentially their pay rise at the end of the period

806
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 1: links to their score. So very very objective, and we

807
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 1: do have a midway check in as well, and what

808
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 1: the purpose of the midway check in is to make

809
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 1: sure that people's goals are right and that when it

810
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:01,399
Speaker 1: comes to the review at the end of the six

811
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 1: month period, which is how long our operas run, that

812
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:06,839
Speaker 1: they feel like it will be a fair assessment. So,

813
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 1: for instance, at the midway check in, if someone's already

814
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 1: smashed a goal, it suggests probably that they set it

815
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 1: too easy, so we need to kind of change it

816
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,759
Speaker 1: at that point. Likewise, if someone's priorities have changed or

817
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 1: something's just completely unrealistic for whatever reason, we can change

818
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 1: it at that midway check in so that that end

819
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 1: of end of review score they feel like is an

820
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:34,839
Speaker 1: accurate representation and then therefore equates to their pay rise.

821
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 2: It's taken so much work over the years. I think

822
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 2: having a system where pay feels fair given promotions not

823
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:46,399
Speaker 2: really a thing at Inventium because we're so flat. So

824
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 2: it's almost like, you know, as you talked about before,

825
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 2: it's like pay is that extrinsic way that people recognize

826
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 2: for top performance, for lack.

827
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 3: Of getting a better title, which is what.

828
00:43:57,880 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 2: Would happen if you, I don't know, worked in a

829
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 2: bank or something like that. That, yes, it feels like

830
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:05,279
Speaker 2: it's at a good place. The final thing I want

831
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 2: to delve into is probably the project that you're working

832
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 2: on at the moment, which I think is bringing you

833
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 2: the most excitement, and that is the AFI BOSS Best

834
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 2: Places to Work List. And I'm wondering if you can

835
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:20,920
Speaker 2: talk about this project and maybe how it came about.

836
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:25,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's something that obviously you and I are

837
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 1: very passionate about, and in addition to our goals around

838
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 1: innovation and productivity, one of the most important things to

839
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 1: us is creating the best place to work or are

840
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 1: creating a place where people can do their best work.

841
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 1: And in the last couple of years, we've been delving

842
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:47,439
Speaker 1: into a mammoth amount of research and journals out there

843
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:51,879
Speaker 1: looking at what are those key elements that create an

844
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 1: amazing workplace or a workplace of the future. And what

845
00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 1: we're really excited about is that we have I've just

846
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:05,760
Speaker 1: partnered with the Australian Financial Review to basically assess best

847
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 1: places to Work across Australia and New Zealand and basically

848
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:14,320
Speaker 1: produce an annual list that rewards and recognizes these organizations

849
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 1: that are really pioneering working practices and policies across everything

850
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 1: from well being to flexibility, to diversity and everything between.

851
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 1: So what's wonderful about it is that we are able

852
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,840
Speaker 1: to apply our amazing methodology and all of the research

853
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 1: that we've done and to be able to really dig

854
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 1: deep into organizations and see how they are applying it

855
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 1: in practice. So we'll make sure that the linked to

856
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 1: nominations is in the show notes from today, so that

857
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:48,280
Speaker 1: if you are working for one of those pioneering organizations,

858
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 1: we would love to have you nominate and to potentially

859
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:56,280
Speaker 1: be recognized in the Australian Financial Review early next year.

860
00:45:56,640 --> 00:46:00,840
Speaker 2: Which would be awesome, awesome way to attract and retain

861
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 2: like the best people feel industry. And I think it's

862
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 2: also I reckon it's really interesting as to how this

863
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 2: idea actually came about because one of the questions that

864
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,319
Speaker 2: I get asked most often, like in a lot of

865
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:18,880
Speaker 2: the virtual keynotes I'm delivering, particularly more so about innovation

866
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:24,880
Speaker 2: than productivity, is like, how do we replace those serendipitous

867
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 2: bumping into conversations? Like you know, there's a lot been

868
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 2: written about Steve Jobs when he designed the office for Pixar,

869
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:33,840
Speaker 2: he deliberately put the kitchen and the bathrooms in a

870
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 2: central location to encourage serendipitous conversations to happen, which would

871
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 2: lead to great innovations. And now people are like, well,

872
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 2: we don't have that now that we're all working remotely,

873
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 2: or that some of us are still working remotely. And

874
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 2: I don't consider this a big deal because I think

875
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:52,479
Speaker 2: we can use email and other messaging platforms in this way.

876
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 2: So how the idea And this is interesting actually going.

877
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:57,600
Speaker 3: Back now almost a decade.

878
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 2: Interestingly, so one of the things that Inventium does and

879
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 2: has done for now a decade is running the Australian

880
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 2: Financial Reviews Most Innovative Companies list, and that's become a

881
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 2: really significant part of our business. And how that list

882
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 2: actually came about was not through a water cooler conversation.

883
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 2: It was through an email from a client that wrote

884
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 2: to me like ten and a bit years ago and said, Hey,

885
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 2: you know, we've been working lots together and I want

886
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 2: to know how I can get my company recognized for

887
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 2: all the innovation goals that we're kicking. Are there any

888
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 2: awards around that we should enter? And I said, I'll

889
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:33,320
Speaker 2: do some research and get back to did some googling

890
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 2: for a few hours. I couldn't find anything in Australia.

891
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:38,800
Speaker 2: So I wrote back and I said, I'm really sorry

892
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 2: I can't find anything, and then that this person writes

893
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 2: back to me just with one word opportunity question mark.

894
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:50,720
Speaker 2: And that is how that list started through that email.

895
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 2: And then a few weeks later I was being interviewed

896
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 2: by a BRW journalist which is to be a publication

897
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 2: of a Fairfax and she was interviewing me for a story.

898
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 2: Just at the end I floated the idea for a

899
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 2: most Innovative Companies list and she said, ah, there's nothing

900
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 2: like that around. I'm going to talk to my editor, Kate,

901
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 2: Kate Mills. And then a few weeks later I had

902
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 2: to sit down with Kate, who is just an awesome,

903
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 2: inspiring business woman, and she said, yeah, let's give this

904
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:19,799
Speaker 2: a go.

905
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:22,360
Speaker 3: And so that's how that got created.

906
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 2: And now with the best places to Work list, it

907
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:29,400
Speaker 2: literally started from an email from you Mish going do

908
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:31,319
Speaker 2: you reckon? You know, do you reckon with all this

909
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 2: stuff that we're doing around workplaces and productivity? Is there

910
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 2: an opportunity for some sort of recognition for companies or

911
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:40,279
Speaker 2: at least or something like that, And then you just

912
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 2: flipped me an email, and it was a really short

913
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:46,239
Speaker 2: email from what I remember, and then and then we

914
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:48,239
Speaker 2: sort of sat on it for a few days and

915
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 2: then regrouped and I'd sort of sent you like a

916
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 2: few thoughts, and then we pitched it to Fairfax like

917
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 2: a week or two later, and then it's up and

918
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:00,479
Speaker 2: running like all within the space of a few months.

919
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 2: And I kind of go, well, isn't that the serendipitous

920
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:05,880
Speaker 2: conversations that people used to have in the office but

921
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 2: net can now have over messenger. And I think they

922
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:10,399
Speaker 2: are two examples to show like we don't actually need

923
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:13,799
Speaker 2: physical officers for those great ideas to emerge. I'm a

924
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 2: strong believer in that.

925
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:16,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

926
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:18,799
Speaker 2: Yes, And so look on that note, miss it's been

927
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 2: it's been wonderful. Like I mean, we talk so much,

928
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 2: so it's a bit weird, like actually speaking into a

929
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 2: microphone and wearing big over the year headphones to talk

930
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:28,920
Speaker 2: to you from Melbourn to Port mccrorye.

931
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 3: But it's been awesome. I love talking about this stuff.

932
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:34,280
Speaker 3: I love hearing you talk about this stuff.

933
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:37,279
Speaker 2: You talk about it like so eloquently and passionately, and

934
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:40,759
Speaker 2: you've just been such an awesome CEO. You've like infinitely

935
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:44,080
Speaker 2: improved my working life to free up my time so

936
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 2: I can go back to making things as opposed to

937
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 2: running a business. And I just think you just do

938
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:52,239
Speaker 2: such a superb job at bing C. I've inventum. So

939
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 2: thank you for today, and thank you Mike for everything.

940
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 1: Thanks so much to math. That's awesome. I wouldn't ever

941
00:49:57,600 --> 00:49:58,359
Speaker 1: work anywhere else.

942
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 2: Thank That is it for today's show. If you enjoyed

943
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:07,279
Speaker 2: this episode and maybe know someone else that might be

944
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:12,720
Speaker 2: interested in how Inventium operates and some of the things

945
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:16,439
Speaker 2: that we've been trying out, some successfully, some unsuccessfully, why

946
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:19,800
Speaker 2: not share this episode with someone you think could benefit

947
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 2: and thank you in advance if you plan to leave

948
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:26,239
Speaker 2: a review in Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to

949
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:30,399
Speaker 2: this to reviews are always very very appreciated and bring

950
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:33,279
Speaker 2: a huge smile to my face. So thank you and

951
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:34,839
Speaker 2: I'll see you next time.