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Speaker 1: When you think of big tech Silicon Valley CEOs, you

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Speaker 1: might think of a young multi millionaire in a hoodie.

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Speaker 2: Super chilled and a bit nerdy.

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Speaker 1: But when the biggest names in Silicon Valley, think Mark

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Speaker 1: Zuckerberg and Elon Musk, sit opposite Kara Swisher for an interview,

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Speaker 1: they're no doubt visually nervous, sweaty.

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Speaker 2: And on their toes.

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Speaker 1: That's because Cara has been covering this industry since the

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Speaker 1: early nineties. She's seen it all and knew many of

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Speaker 1: the titans in tech when they were just starting out.

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Speaker 2: Kara is a no nonsense.

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Speaker 1: Journalist with a reputation for being both the most feared

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Speaker 1: and well like journalist to cover Silicon Valley, and I

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Speaker 1: happen to be a huge fan of one of her podcasts, Pivot,

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Speaker 1: that she hosts with Professor Scott Galloway. So how does

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Speaker 1: Kara prepare for interviewing some of the biggest names in

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Speaker 1: the world, And what's the best piece of advice that

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Speaker 1: she's ever received in her career? And why has Kara

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Speaker 1: never suffered from imposter syndrome. I'm doctor Ramantha Imba. I'm

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Speaker 1: an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science consultancy

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Speaker 1: Inventium and this is how I work, a show that

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Speaker 1: helps you do your best work. So Cara is one

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Speaker 1: of those people with more jobs than seems human. She's

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Speaker 1: an opinion writer for The New York Times and hosts

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Speaker 1: the podcasts Recode, Decode, Sway, and Pivot, along with a

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Speaker 1: stack of other things. So I wanted to start by

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Speaker 1: understanding how on earth does she fit it all in.

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Speaker 3: I'm very careful with my schedule. I don't owever schedule myself,

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Speaker 3: and I like, I say no to a lot of things.

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Speaker 3: You know, most people say yes to everything. I don't,

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Speaker 3: I know, as a complete sentence in my life. And

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Speaker 3: I'm okay with that. And I'm very clear about the

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Speaker 3: stuff I want to accomplish. So I set out sort

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Speaker 3: of goals for myself for the week, you know, the day,

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Speaker 3: the week, the month, the year kind of thing. And

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Speaker 3: so I'm always planning it in that way, and I

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Speaker 3: move them up and down. Lit I make a lot

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Speaker 3: of lists. I'm a list maker. I don't use anything

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Speaker 3: fancy like trello or things like that. I just make

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Speaker 3: a list essentially, and so I'm very strict about, like,

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Speaker 3: here's my priorities, and then I move stack, rank them

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Speaker 3: up and down and make sure I'm sort of doing them.

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Speaker 3: And it's not quite like KPIs or other things that

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Speaker 3: people do, but it's super efficient in terms of how

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Speaker 3: I think about it.

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Speaker 2: Now, you mentioned that you say no a lot.

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Speaker 1: Do you have almost criteria, whether that be conscious or unconscious,

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Speaker 1: around what you'll say yes to and what you're saying

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Speaker 1: no to.

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Speaker 3: I will say yes. I typically say yes to students,

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Speaker 3: you know, stuff like that, sometimes paying things if it's

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Speaker 3: a lot of money, you know, I mean sometimes I

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Speaker 3: say yes to money things. I always say yes to

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Speaker 3: gain lesbian stuff or if I can, I say yes

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Speaker 3: to anything young people ask me to do, like if

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Speaker 3: they want to talk for a few minutes, you know,

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Speaker 3: that kind of thing. I don't like meetings a lot.

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Speaker 3: I don't. I try to limit the number of meetings

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Speaker 3: I actually I have a day like it's typically a

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Speaker 3: Tuesday now, although sometimes it gets people get creeping into

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Speaker 3: my Tuesday that I leave empty that I won't schedule

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Speaker 3: anything on and so I can like work on writing

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Speaker 3: and things like that.

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Speaker 1: Is the free Tuesday being always being around or is

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Speaker 1: that something that you implemented.

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Speaker 3: No, I just have noticed I need a full day

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Speaker 3: because people, if people could you know, a lot of

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Speaker 3: people have access to my schedule, my Google skill. I

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Speaker 3: used a Google schedule, but you could use anything, you know.

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Speaker 3: And if people have access, they'll tend to put things

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Speaker 3: on it, Like someone just put something on my schedule

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Speaker 3: that I didn't ask for, and so, uh, you know

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Speaker 3: I I So I spend a lot of time paying

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Speaker 3: attention to who's who in water is on my schedule?

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Speaker 1: And do you have a strategy for saying no well

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Speaker 1: or effectively.

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Speaker 3: I'm very particularly about who I let touch my schedule.

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Speaker 3: You know, I don't have an assistant like most people,

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Speaker 3: I ilk have assistance, but I don't. I don't want

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Speaker 3: anyone to touch my schedule or anything like that or

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Speaker 3: make decisions for me because they don't know everything that's

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Speaker 3: in my head. Like oh, I just I want to

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Speaker 3: leave early to pick up my son, or like today

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Speaker 3: I have to my son is starting lacrosse and so

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Speaker 3: I've got to make time for that. So I have

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Speaker 3: to figure out what else I have to move because

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Speaker 3: of the driving and this and that. I have to

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Speaker 3: make appointments and I put them up up on my

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Speaker 3: schedule to remind myself. So I'm constantly re evaluating the

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Speaker 3: schedule every week. But I definitely leave a big center

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Speaker 3: day without anything to do. But I do a lot

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Speaker 3: in that day.

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Speaker 1: So what does that center day look like that you

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Speaker 1: don't have, I guess external bookings.

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Speaker 3: So I give myself a morning to think, like and

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Speaker 3: like read around and take notes and things like that.

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Speaker 3: So just like nobody gets enough time to think because

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Speaker 3: and then also if you like Twitter or you like

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Speaker 3: whatever here happen, your addictive nature of the Internet is

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Speaker 3: you can go from thinks that you can take up

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Speaker 3: a lot at whether you like watching looking at Instagram

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Speaker 3: or TikTok. You can really suck up time. And it's

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Speaker 3: not bad stuff either, by the way, it's good. It's

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Speaker 3: kind of interesting. It's news and stuff. So I can

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Speaker 3: do endless sucking of information and I enjoy it, like

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Speaker 3: reading the news quite a bit. So I have to

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Speaker 3: like physically put down my phone. I also like to

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Speaker 3: have to do stuff that isn't digital, like I this morning,

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Speaker 3: I had some time. I didn't realize what happened, so

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Speaker 3: I rearranged my shelves. I was just it makes me happy,

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Speaker 3: it calms me down. Cleaning calms me down, actually, and

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Speaker 3: I think while I'm doing it, or I listen to

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Speaker 3: music or podcasts or things like that, and so I

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Speaker 3: want it's really important to take space for yourself, even

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Speaker 3: if you I take more space than most people because

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Speaker 3: it's calming, it's you know what I mean, like things

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Speaker 3: that I like, physical things like cooking or cleaning. I

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Speaker 3: tend to like to do myself because I'm an organized

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Speaker 3: person and it's like therapy for me. And it sounds weird,

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Speaker 3: but it is.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't sound wesid all now.

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Speaker 1: Before we started recording, I mentioned that I'm a huge

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Speaker 1: fan of PI and it's always it's quite surreal, I

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Speaker 1: think when you listen to a podcast and then you

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Speaker 1: actually speak to that voice that is in your ear

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Speaker 1: all the time.

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Speaker 2: And something I'm really impressed.

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Speaker 1: About always with you and Scott on Pivot is just

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Speaker 1: you seem to know everything.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we do, one of us does.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, definitely.

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Speaker 3: You.

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Speaker 1: What are your go to sources for staying on top

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Speaker 1: of what's going on in the world.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'm a voracious reader of news, you know, I

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Speaker 3: really do. I'm always paying attention to making I spend

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Speaker 3: a lot of time making connections between things, and so

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Speaker 3: I save like a long reading list of different articles.

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Speaker 3: I don't read by publication necessarily, but you know, I

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Speaker 3: tend to look at the New York Times several times

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Speaker 3: a day just for news because they just they have

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Speaker 3: a breadth of news, or watch them post and then

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Speaker 3: I look Twitter a lot. Is really my organizational thing

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Speaker 3: for news. And then I avail myself. I ask people

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Speaker 3: when I get an idea, I ask people directly about

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Speaker 3: different things, or I try to reach them so I

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Speaker 3: can get more information. So I spend a lot of

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Speaker 3: time texting. I spend a lot of time reading and

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Speaker 3: then texting or cent what do you think of this?

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Speaker 3: What do you know about this? And stuff like that.

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Speaker 3: So I'm always collecting information.

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Speaker 2: And on Twitter, who are some of your go to

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Speaker 2: people that you follow on Twitter?

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Speaker 3: So when there was high political drama, I smell a

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Speaker 3: lot of time with lots of political people. But I

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Speaker 3: follow everybody in that and I read them very quickly.

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Speaker 3: And now I'm really interested in vaccines, and so I'm

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Speaker 3: following a lot of various vaccine I just interviewed Michelle

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Speaker 3: doctor Michelle Williams of Harvard Today, and so I tend

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Speaker 3: to follow a lot of vaccine experts this week because

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Speaker 3: I'm interested in distribution or things like that. It often

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Speaker 3: depends on what I'm covering. Like I did a really

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Speaker 3: good interview with Kathy Park Hoong about the attacks on

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Speaker 3: Asian Americans in the United States, and I besides reading

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Speaker 3: her book, which was amazing, I followed lots of discussion

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Speaker 3: about it on Twitter, for example, and I followed lots

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Speaker 3: of I tend to use more digital things than I

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Speaker 3: do television or things like that, but I do avail

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Speaker 3: myself to like I'm very interested in QAnon, and I've

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Speaker 3: watched all the q and and documentaries, the one on

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Speaker 3: HBO and things like that, and I sort of tend

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Speaker 3: to get deep into a topic and then learn all

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Speaker 3: about it.

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Speaker 1: I wantn't know with interviews, what's your process for preparing

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Speaker 1: for an interview.

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Speaker 3: My process is before I did it all myself, but

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Speaker 3: the Times has given me these great producers who tend

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Speaker 3: to produce a background document and I tend to read

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Speaker 3: almost everything and then we then they come up with

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Speaker 3: you know, I give them thing called curiosities, where I said,

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Speaker 3: this is what I'm interested in. If we're interviewing like

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Speaker 3: I just interviewed Don Lemon. Here's the ten things I'm

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Speaker 3: interested in. And then they make suggestions and then we

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Speaker 3: have a discussion about it, and then they create a

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Speaker 3: question document based on the narrative I want for the interview,

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Speaker 3: and they can suggest you know, actually you said start

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Speaker 3: with this. What about if we start with this? Because

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Speaker 3: of this, it's almost like writing a story together with

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Speaker 3: a bunch of people. And then we look over the

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Speaker 3: question and we have a meeting about the question document

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Speaker 3: and move that around, and then during the interview, they're

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Speaker 3: talking to me through the Google doc, you know, as

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Speaker 3: I'm going. But I tend to do it many, like

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Speaker 3: many weeks of research depend on several different interviews that

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Speaker 3: are going on.

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Speaker 2: That's amazing how broad it is. How do you decide

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Speaker 2: on who to interview?

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Speaker 3: I always have a conceptual idea of what I'm doing.

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Speaker 3: So conceptually it's about power, and so what is power?

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Speaker 3: And that's that's how I That could be anybody, right,

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Speaker 3: It creates a rather large basket of people you can interview,

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Speaker 3: and so I try to find really interesting ways into

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Speaker 3: a broader topic. You know, I tend to another thing.

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Speaker 3: I spend a lot of time is trying to be diverse.

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Speaker 3: And I'm not doing this for virtue signaling or anything else.

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Speaker 3: But there's plenty of people out there, and you just

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Speaker 3: don't you don't have to have Everyone doesn't have to

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Speaker 3: be a white guy, right, it just doesn't. And so

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Speaker 3: I can find like epine biologists, there's dozens I could find,

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Speaker 3: Like they're all qualified, every one of them. But I

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Speaker 3: tended to look around so I get the most diverse,

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Speaker 3: whether it's a woman, a person of color. Just try

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Speaker 3: to be more diverse in my thinking age geography. It's

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Speaker 3: not just gender and race, it's everything. Like we try

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Speaker 3: intentionally to try to find a broader range of people

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Speaker 3: for you to meet, right so that you understand the

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Speaker 3: world in a much broader way, because I think that's

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Speaker 3: just more knowledge is better, and so if you have

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Speaker 3: more points of view, you get a lot more you know,

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Speaker 3: you get a lot more perspective. And some people are

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Speaker 3: just just like Nancy Pelosi, I don't really have to

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Speaker 3: you know. Just this past four weeks, we had doctor

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Speaker 3: Michelle Williams who's an epidemiologist at Harvard, Diana Triheo, who

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Speaker 3: is the Mars Rover person, Apple CEO, Tim Cook you know,

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Speaker 3: we try really hard to mix up people so people

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Speaker 3: will find it interesting.

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Speaker 2: That's amazing.

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Speaker 1: I've read that you don't feel intimidated or nervous going

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Speaker 1: into interviews.

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Speaker 2: Is that true? Yes?

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Speaker 3: Now, except for maybe if I ever got Dolly Parton,

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Speaker 3: But I think I wouldn't it be so happy? I

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Speaker 3: really would like to interview Dolly Parton. She has said yes,

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Speaker 3: yet I will get Dolly Parton to yes at some point. No,

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Speaker 3: I don't feel nervous. Feel nervous, why should I.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about the flow of the interview.

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Speaker 1: You talked about almost thinking about it as a story.

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Speaker 1: How how do you plan for it? Like what makes

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Speaker 1: a good for opening part of the interview through to

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Speaker 1: the rest of it.

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Speaker 3: You know, one of the things interviewers they make a

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Speaker 3: mistake is they reel off a list of questions and

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Speaker 3: don't there. They don't shift from it if things change,

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Speaker 3: If I respond to what people are telling me, it's

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Speaker 3: like it's more than a story. It's a conversation. Like

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Speaker 3: you'd have at dinner with someone you wouldn't go and next,

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Speaker 3: let me ask you about that next. You know what

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Speaker 3: I mean? You wouldn't do that, you would have a

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Speaker 3: things fork off from each other, and so I spend

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Speaker 3: a lot of time with a basics construct of here's

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Speaker 3: the six things I really want to find out I

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Speaker 3: want to ask this person. But I tend to sort

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Speaker 3: of group them in things that naturally flow from one

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Speaker 3: or another. And sometimes I'm like, let's hit them hard

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Speaker 3: at the top. Sometimes I'm like, let's just wait, let's

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Speaker 3: you know, let's introduce it this way. So you because

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Speaker 3: you want to sort of you want to have people

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Speaker 3: to be comfortable to talk to you. At the same time,

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Speaker 3: you don't want to not show discomfort with some things

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Speaker 3: you don't like about them, right And in some cases

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Speaker 3: it just goes I mean, I think one of the

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Speaker 3: most successful in reis was this parlor ceo who I

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Speaker 3: got to say the truth, which is he doesn't care

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Speaker 3: about moderating, right like, and you know, it got him fired,

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Speaker 3: it got farther thrown off. But you know, the day

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Speaker 3: before the interview, everything was fine. The day after they

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Speaker 3: were thrown off every platform, and it was because I

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Speaker 3: was very I was right near the capital. I was

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Speaker 3: very emotional. You know, the capital was being attacked. I

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Speaker 3: love the capital, I live near it, and I was

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Speaker 3: like what the hell what are you talking about? Like

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Speaker 3: and so, and he kept saying false things to me,

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Speaker 3: like the New York Times, you know, promotes riots. I go,

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Speaker 3: what are you talking about? That is not true? And

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Speaker 3: then he said some people say and I said, no,

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Speaker 3: people say, you just made that up, like you know

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Speaker 3: what I mean? Like so, it was as if I

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Speaker 3: was having a conversation, but I had I had a

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Speaker 3: list of things I wanted to talk to about, and

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Speaker 3: moderation was one of them. And that's why, you know,

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Speaker 3: that's why we that's why it worked. I ultimately got

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Speaker 3: answers to all the questions that people wanted to know about.

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Speaker 3: It was this platform irresponsible and how it monitors its users.

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Speaker 3: There's one question usually with each person. In case of

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Speaker 3: Tim Cook, there's like six or seven.

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Speaker 1: How do you deal with people who are evading answering questions?

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Speaker 3: I say it that you didn't answer the question, like,

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Speaker 3: I don't pretend I don't try a lot of interviews

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Speaker 3: back into questions.

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Speaker 2: Like so.

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Speaker 3: There are some people who say, you know, like they

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Speaker 3: back into it. I don't know why. I'm like Tim Cook,

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Speaker 3: I'm like, okay. Lots of people say you're a monopoly

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Speaker 3: in the app store, and they want to shut you

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Speaker 3: down by antitrust? Can I have your reaction? I like

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Speaker 3: I ask very direct questions. I do think people appreciate

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Speaker 3: direct questions. I one hundred percent think that.

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Speaker 1: How do you shake people out of the talking points?

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Speaker 3: I say that's a talking point? Can we move on?

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Speaker 3: When precisely I actually say that physically, I say that's

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Speaker 3: a talking point? Are we done with this yet? Because

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Speaker 3: just let me know? Because I'm tired of these talking points?

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Speaker 3: And I don't do it rudely. I'm like, you know,

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Speaker 3: that's a time you don't really want to talk like that, right?

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Speaker 3: Is that how you want to present yourself?

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Speaker 2: I find your directness very inspiring.

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Speaker 3: I'm just clear direct. I'm direct. Yeah. I think people

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Speaker 3: like it. I think I think the interviewers like it.

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Speaker 3: By the interviewees like it because they don't have to

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Speaker 3: like they're like, oh, okay, she's going to ask. There's

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Speaker 3: no like idea that I'm not going to be clear.

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Speaker 3: I think we're smart. People respect it. I think that's

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Speaker 3: why they keep coming back for more. I never, like,

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Speaker 3: never catch them like I don't. I'm just direct, and

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Speaker 3: that's easier than people who catch them.

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Speaker 1: Right, definitely, definitely, I want to know with pivot, what

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Speaker 1: does the preparation process look like. I'm always so keen

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Speaker 1: to know, you know, with podcasts, I listened to what

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Speaker 1: happens before the show.

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Speaker 3: We have this system. I'm working in a little studio

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Speaker 3: and I set everything up myself. There's nobody here. We

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Speaker 3: do everything virtually, so what the engineer is on the call,

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Speaker 3: we use squadcast, and then we've we've the engineer has

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Speaker 3: walked through the subject on how to set up their things,

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Speaker 3: so there's usually not most of can you hear me?

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Speaker 3: Can you hear me? There's none of that, and then

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Speaker 3: we just go right in and I say this is

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Speaker 3: going to take I often always say, uh, this is

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Speaker 3: going to be an hour, so sit back, like this

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Speaker 3: is not a cable network thing, so you're gonna have

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Speaker 3: to you know, dig deep heer if you don't mind,

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Speaker 3: And so I tend to do that. Sometimes there's banter

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Speaker 3: because sometimes I know someone and I you know, and

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Speaker 3: sometimes we use it. Sometimes we use the the the uh,

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Speaker 3: the banter, and sometimes we don't. But but I tend

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Speaker 3: to like try to like say something nice to them,

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Speaker 3: you know what I mean, like or something happened in

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Speaker 3: the news, I'm like, oh, what do you think about that?

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Speaker 3: Or if I hadn't seen them in a while, like

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Speaker 3: sometimes like oh we haven't seen each other since this time,

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Speaker 3: and talk about that. But anyway, I try to like

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Speaker 3: have an ongoing relationship with people so that by the

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Speaker 3: time they get to my podcast, we have a relationship.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I read that about you that you're a really big

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Speaker 1: proponent of staying in touch with people that you interview,

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Speaker 1: whereas a lot of reporters are very transactional. What's been

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Speaker 1: your approach for I guess building those relationships in that network.

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Speaker 3: My approach is I just people don't contact people. I

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Speaker 3: know it sounds crazy, but they just don't.

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Speaker 2: I just do.

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Speaker 3: I Like, anyone I want to meet, you can usually

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Speaker 3: get to them through Twitter or whatever, and I don't.

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Speaker 3: I just text them or whatever, or if I if

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Speaker 3: I don't have their email, I go on Twitter and

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Speaker 3: DM them or sometimes publicly like hey it Scara, call me.

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Speaker 2: What are your favorite podcasts to listen to?

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Speaker 3: Well, I listen to my own lot. Actually I want

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Speaker 3: to see how they sound and it works. Pivot I

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Speaker 3: listen to every week. I don't listen to sway all

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Speaker 3: the time because they're so long and I remember them

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Speaker 3: so But I listen to Pivolt to see what works

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Speaker 3: and what doesn't work. I have the daily. I don't

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Speaker 3: listen to it every day, though, and I sometimes listen

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Speaker 3: to pod save a matory, you know when when when

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Speaker 3: Kevin rus haad rabbit Hole. I like series, and so

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Speaker 3: I listened to that. I listen to Dolly Partons America.

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Speaker 3: Of course. I like to listen to interesting podcasts by

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Speaker 3: young people. I was teaching at the University of Chicago

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Speaker 3: this semester, and this one student I thought was super

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Speaker 3: promising podcaster has a podcast called kind Of sort Of Brown,

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Speaker 3: which I really like. I think it's kind of cool.

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Speaker 3: I think she does. She does really, It's just I'm

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Speaker 3: always interested in what she had. She she does with

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Speaker 3: a bunch of young people there Niversity Chicago, and I

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Speaker 3: really like, I really like it.

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Speaker 1: When you're listening to pivot your own podcast, what what

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Speaker 1: are you listening for when you're you know, listening critically

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Speaker 1: to it?

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Speaker 3: I guess, well, it's sort of like how many people

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Speaker 3: who listen to shows see what jokes land, you know,

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Speaker 3: with a lot of what works, what goes on too long,

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Speaker 3: if I'm if Scott is interrupting me too much, or

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Speaker 3: I'm interrupting him too much. Everything I listened to everything,

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Speaker 3: how the opening worked, If we should change anything, ideas

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Speaker 3: for the next show. I tend to think of I'm

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Speaker 3: always thinking of new things we can do, length of things.

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Speaker 3: We don't do a lot of editing on this thing.

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Speaker 3: It's not highly produced. So it's produced. So we have

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Speaker 3: a really good producer, Rebecca, but we don't. It's not

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Speaker 3: highly produced. As you know, The Daily is highly produced.

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Speaker 1: It is not I would say, hey, there, it's time

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Speaker 1: for a little ad break, but can I ask a

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Speaker 1: favor of you? If you're enjoying how I work, I'd

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Speaker 1: be so grateful if you could hit pause and leave

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Speaker 1: a little review. You might want to hit the star

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Speaker 1: button and leave a star review, or maybe write some

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Speaker 1: kind words thank you in advance. If you're one of

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Speaker 1: the hundreds of people that have done this. It's a

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Speaker 1: great way to help other people find out about how

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Speaker 1: I work. And it also just brings me lots of warm,

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Speaker 1: fuzzy feelings, so that's nice too.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: Kara will be back after this short break where she

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Speaker 1: reveals the best piece of career advice she's ever received,

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Speaker 1: and she also gives me feedback on my interview style.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about social media because Twitter's obviously

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Speaker 1: features in your life in terms of staying on top

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Speaker 1: of things. Yet you are able to, particularly on your

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Speaker 1: Tuesdays you were talking about, stay really efficient and focused.

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Speaker 1: So what is your relationship like with social media?

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Speaker 3: I just use Twitter. I don't use Facebook at all.

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Speaker 3: I don't use Facebook. I've a giant waste of data,

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Speaker 3: sucking waste of my time. I don't look at Instagram.

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Speaker 3: I don't find it. I don't really want to look

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Speaker 3: at people's lunches all that much. If they're really good,

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Speaker 3: they'll put them on Twitter. I get why people like Instagram.

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Speaker 3: I get it. It's just too performative for me. I

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Speaker 3: like TikTok, but I get sucked into the TikTok hole.

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Speaker 3: If I go in there, I stay there for a

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Speaker 3: long time.

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Speaker 2: How do you not let it consume me?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 2: How do you switch off when you've actually got writing

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Speaker 2: to do?

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Speaker 3: I have to put it away. It's addictive. I love it,

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Speaker 3: it's so fun. I don't I'm not addicted to anything.

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Speaker 3: I don't smile. I don't drink. I don't take drugs,

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Speaker 3: you know what I mean, Like it's a drug, it's

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Speaker 3: a drink. I like news, So it's a perfect app

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Speaker 3: for me because I news. I've just been lately doing

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Speaker 3: you know, I do live twitters after I do certain

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Speaker 3: New York Times stuff, and that's fun to interact with

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Speaker 3: the audience. But lately we've been trying Twitter spaces, which

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Speaker 3: is essentially not clubhouse, and I like it a lot

436
00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:16,719
Speaker 3: because my interest graph is there and we've been getting

437
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,080
Speaker 3: you know, five hundred more people coming in on a

438
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,080
Speaker 3: Friday night talking about you know, like last week it

439
00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,879
Speaker 3: was Amazon's union stuff, and so we bring in interesting

440
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,000
Speaker 3: people to talk to and then we let most people

441
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:30,879
Speaker 3: on there, so it's sort of like talk radio. I

442
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,200
Speaker 3: really kind of like it. I'm fascinated by the audio

443
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:34,040
Speaker 3: live space.

444
00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:35,560
Speaker 2: Now.

445
00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,080
Speaker 1: Something I've read about you is that I'm, like quite

446
00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:41,320
Speaker 1: a few guests I've had on the show, impostera syndrome

447
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,359
Speaker 1: is not something that you have had.

448
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:45,439
Speaker 2: Can you talk to me about that.

449
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,879
Speaker 3: I don't have imposter syndrome. I think I'm great. I

450
00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,639
Speaker 3: don't know why I am. I mean, when I do

451
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,680
Speaker 3: things wrong, I'm like, oh, that sucked, but I tend

452
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,639
Speaker 3: not to think that. Most of the time. I have

453
00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,159
Speaker 3: a good assessment of my qualities, is what I would say.

454
00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:02,680
Speaker 3: I had an interesting talk with my son. I talked

455
00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:04,480
Speaker 3: to my oldest son and I've been talking a lot lately,

456
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,120
Speaker 3: which is interesting. He's at NYU for the first year

457
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:09,800
Speaker 3: and we've talked a lot about what makes a person

458
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,080
Speaker 3: like and stuff. And he was, you know, he was

459
00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:14,280
Speaker 3: reading me some stuff he wrote. He's a beautiful writer.

460
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,800
Speaker 3: Don't believe it, but he's quite a good writer. And

461
00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,040
Speaker 3: you know, it's so funny because he goes he goes, no,

462
00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,360
Speaker 3: I'm not, and I'm like, have I ever said you're

463
00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:24,119
Speaker 3: good at something when you're not? And he goes, no,

464
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:26,040
Speaker 3: you haven't. I said, so you must be a good writer,

465
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:28,159
Speaker 3: because I wouldn't say so. I'd say nothing, or I

466
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:31,560
Speaker 3: would say it's bad. Probably, So I tend to be

467
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:36,119
Speaker 3: very clear with my feedback. And I'm good with that

468
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,800
Speaker 3: myself about myself too. So if I'm good at something,

469
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,720
Speaker 3: I say so. If I'm not, I say so. But

470
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,119
Speaker 3: when I'm good at I'm quite good at so I

471
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:45,560
Speaker 3: say that.

472
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,160
Speaker 1: Where did you get that from? I feel like that's

473
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:52,439
Speaker 1: really unusual. Like particularly when when we're younger.

474
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:54,840
Speaker 3: Well, I have eyes, I can see. I know if

475
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,040
Speaker 3: i'm good. I know if i'm good against other people.

476
00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,040
Speaker 3: Like I wanted to be an architect, but I was terrible.

477
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,159
Speaker 3: I was terrible. I loved it. I love drawing, but

478
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,359
Speaker 3: everything I designed looked like shit. And I was like,

479
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,040
Speaker 3: I'm not good at this, Like I just knew it.

480
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:07,639
Speaker 3: I just didn't. And this other girls that next to

481
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:08,960
Speaker 3: me was so good, and I was like everything she

482
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,480
Speaker 3: designed this is beautiful. Like I'm aware of other people

483
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:14,720
Speaker 3: being better at things, even if I wish I were

484
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,560
Speaker 3: better at them. I don't know. I'm just truthful about

485
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,720
Speaker 3: myself and the things around. And that includes being truthful,

486
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 3: not necessarily in a negative way. It's always done in

487
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,120
Speaker 3: a negative way to people. I'm not good at this.

488
00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:29,000
Speaker 3: I don't measure up that person's richer. I don't think

489
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 3: like that. I'm like that was good. I make a

490
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:33,600
Speaker 3: lot of money, like you know what I mean, Like

491
00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:38,119
Speaker 3: you know, and so it's I'm just I'm just pretty

492
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,640
Speaker 3: clear about my capabilities.

493
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,159
Speaker 2: Wow, it's almost like this object comparison.

494
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 3: Well, I just think you know, the world tries to

495
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,320
Speaker 3: drag down women. You know what I mean, they drag

496
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,199
Speaker 3: down people are marginalized. I think a little bit has

497
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 3: to do with being gay. I guess if I had

498
00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,040
Speaker 3: to pick anything, is that. You know, all the messaging

499
00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:01,240
Speaker 3: was so negative when I was coming up. When I

500
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:02,959
Speaker 3: was I'm an older person, and so it was a

501
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 3: lot different than it is today. It's not good today either,

502
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 3: by the way, for transport transgender kids right now. I

503
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,400
Speaker 3: just was very confident, so you had to be because

504
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,160
Speaker 3: there were so many negative images, and I kept thinking,

505
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 3: I'm great, I'm pretty happy, I'm gay, like you know

506
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 3: what I mean, Like I was. It was just like,

507
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:21,960
Speaker 3: that's not true, that's not true. And so I think

508
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:23,920
Speaker 3: that's how I think you get if you have a

509
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 3: lot of incoming in your life and you're able to

510
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,040
Speaker 3: fend it off, you feel pretty confident about yourself.

511
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:31,159
Speaker 2: I'm fascinated by that.

512
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,200
Speaker 3: I don't have. My daughter is really interesting. She's super confident.

513
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 3: She's My sons are wonderful guys. They're older, they're sixteen

514
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 3: and almost almost sixteen, almost nineteen, and my daughter is

515
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 3: one and a half, a little bit over one and

516
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 3: a half, and she's so confident. It's so fascinating to watch.

517
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 3: She just walks through the world, that's right, you know

518
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:53,879
Speaker 3: what I mean? Like, and last night she was just

519
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,920
Speaker 3: dancing and just she didn't care, She couldn't care less.

520
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,000
Speaker 3: She was like, I'm dancing, That's what I'm doing. And

521
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 3: then I'm going to just throw myself into it. And

522
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,959
Speaker 3: so you always wonder what happens to girls. For example,

523
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,120
Speaker 3: iway keep going with is because I boys is easy.

524
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 3: They're always confident by the way most of the time,

525
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 3: or the world lets them be confident most of the time.

526
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 3: And I was like, where's the point where they're going

527
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,440
Speaker 3: to try to pull down this enormous confidence this little

528
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,200
Speaker 3: girl has, right, what's the moment? And so I want

529
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,159
Speaker 3: to watch it really carefully because I don't want her

530
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,440
Speaker 3: to let go of it because it's it's magical, right,

531
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,639
Speaker 3: Her confidence and herself and her abilities is really quite high.

532
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 3: And so where are the little places that, you know,

533
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,199
Speaker 3: shave an edge off of her? And I'm not going

534
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,479
Speaker 3: to let that happen. I love that because she's going

535
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:37,360
Speaker 3: to do better by staying the way she is, by

536
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:42,200
Speaker 3: having wonder confidence and everything else. And I'm not being

537
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 3: being stupidly dangerous. I don't want to run down, run

538
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 3: down the steps or anything like that. But but it's

539
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 3: it's an interesting I'm watching It's going to be interesting

540
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 3: having a daughter over two sons, because sons are alway,

541
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,440
Speaker 3: They're always like, I'm great, I'm great. I was like,

542
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 3: you're not so great. Oh I'm great.

543
00:24:58,560 --> 00:24:59,679
Speaker 2: Where does it come from?

544
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 3: Where does it come from?

545
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 2: Now?

546
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 1: With writing, I want to know how can people make

547
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 1: their writing better for listeners that are are fans of

548
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 1: your work and your writing?

549
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 2: What can ask me immortals do to be better writers?

550
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 3: Well, you're not. I am also immortal. To give you

551
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 3: some infidet I know you think I'm a god from

552
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,120
Speaker 3: another planet, but now just be clear, just I think

553
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 3: people tend to be performative in their writing, right, they're not.

554
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 3: They like they imagine what a writer is supposed to sound,

555
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 3: like you should develop your own voice and stick to it,

556
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 3: and like there's certain things don't like write run on sentences.

557
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 3: There's like a bunch of rules. One of my favorite

558
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 3: books is Drunk and White's Elements of Style. Still just

559
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 3: read that and don't do those things like that. They

560
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 3: say not to, but I think most people don't. They

561
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 3: tend to get very flourishy or performative instead of just

562
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,440
Speaker 3: writing simply into the point. And I think if you

563
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 3: get to that, then you can later It's like learn

564
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 3: to draw on apple, and then later you can be Picasso.

565
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 3: Picasso drew a beautiful apple, by the way, before he

566
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 3: was Picasso, he could draw an apple right, or he

567
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,920
Speaker 3: could do like the basics. So master a couple of things.

568
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 3: The essay is, if you're a news reporter and knew

569
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 3: a good news report, master a longer form piece, and

570
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 3: then you know, then you can get more challenging and experimental.

571
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 3: It's like skiing, like start on the bunny slope, then

572
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,440
Speaker 3: do intermedia, then go down the other one, you know,

573
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 3: the black diamond or whatever. And so I think people

574
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 3: don't spend enough time thinking about like a craft, right,

575
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 3: do it over and over and over again, just like

576
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 3: dancing or anything else. How did you I was always writing?

577
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 3: I wasn't I wasn't a bio. I wasn't a diary

578
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 3: person at all. I just I don't know. I just

579
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 3: started writing. I was good at it. I just was good.

580
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:40,199
Speaker 3: I was very articulate as a child about anything. I

581
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 3: had a very I had a very easy time talking.

582
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:46,159
Speaker 3: And then I just typed what I was saying. You know,

583
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 3: I just don't. I just I learned. I had great teachers.

584
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 3: I had several teachers who were just in especially sixth

585
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 3: and seventh grade, who were very encouraging and creative and

586
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 3: the way they taught. But I also had one ture

587
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 3: who was just a grammar. I don't want to say

588
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 3: grammar Nazi, because Nazis shouldn't be used for things like that,

589
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 3: but she was a grammar. She was just a very

590
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,479
Speaker 3: strong on grammar and she drilled into me proper grammar.

591
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 3: And I know it sounds dumb, but it gives you

592
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 3: a structure. And so I'm not always perfect, but I

593
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,199
Speaker 3: definitely think about how important that structural stuff was to

594
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 3: being a good writer.

595
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 2: A couple more questions for you.

596
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 1: I always feel, I'm not sure if nervous is the

597
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,120
Speaker 1: right word, but when I'm interviewing someone that interviews other

598
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 1: people for a living, I'm always curious as to what

599
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 1: they're thinking. Given you're so direct with feedback, give me

600
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 1: some feedback, Kara, for how this interview is in you.

601
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 3: You're an excellent interviewer. You ask good questions, You're flowing nicely,

602
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 3: You're asking things are following you're actually listening to what

603
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:44,919
Speaker 3: I'm saying and then following up with questions about what

604
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 3: we're talking about. I think you're curious. I think that's

605
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,640
Speaker 3: the most important part for an interviewer, is to be curious.

606
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,119
Speaker 3: And you're not doing rote like here's my list of questions.

607
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 3: I'm going to get through them, so it feels like

608
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 3: question answer, question answer, question answer. And that's where most

609
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 3: interviewers go wrong is they're not hearing what the person

610
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 3: is saying. You know, you keep you're doing an interesting conversation.

611
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,439
Speaker 3: That's how you should think of it. An interesting conversation.

612
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 2: Okay, give give me some constructive feedback. What can I

613
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 2: do better?

614
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 3: I'd up the aussy accent. People love a charming Australian. Yes,

615
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 3: I'm gonna use it next time. You probably try to

616
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 3: please me too much, so you're not saying anything really

617
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 3: mean or tough, not unfairly, but like, I don't think

618
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 3: you want to be too tough on me. Probably you're

619
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,159
Speaker 3: nervous because because I'm probably faster than you and probably

620
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 3: could slap you down really hard. That would be my guest. Yeah,

621
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 3: probably you're nervous about saying anything too I didn't like

622
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 3: that I didn't like when you did that, and so

623
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 3: those are hard questions. Like when I was in reading

624
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 3: Tim Cook the other day, I forgot. I didn't not forget,

625
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 3: but I enough time to ask about China. But I

626
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 3: was pretty tough when I'm bearing the app and I

627
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 3: made sure that I had like, I think you're wrong,

628
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,479
Speaker 3: like we so we could have a point of and

629
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 3: I thought that too. I wasn't doing it just to

630
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 3: be pointlessly difficult. I was like, I have a problem

631
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 3: with this, and so do a lot of people. But

632
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 3: I don't say other people say. I usually say I

633
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 3: have a problem with this. So you probably don't want

634
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 3: to be mean to me. But I haven't never really

635
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 3: done anything deserving meanness. I'm not sure you know what

636
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 3: I mean, Like.

637
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I appreciate your feedback, and that's very true.

638
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 1: I think I would feel nervous to disagree because I

639
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 1: have such a high opinion of you.

640
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 3: That's why Scott works so well, because we disagree all

641
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 3: the time, and we both are good at pushing back.

642
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 3: You know, people are. It's so funny. Someone said to me,

643
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 3: he's so offensive. He said that to me. I was like,

644
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 3: uh huh. And they're like aren't you angry all the time.

645
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 3: I'm like, no, no, he's offensive. Yeah, I don't agree

646
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 3: with them. And then I push back, like and they're like, well,

647
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 3: I think you should find someone who's less offensive. I'm like,

648
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 3: the whole friggin point of the show is that we

649
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 3: disagree on a lot of stuff and we agree on

650
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 3: some stuff. I said, it's a whole that's the whole formula.

651
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 3: Is that there's people really like civil disagreement. And because

652
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 3: there's so much partisanship down that's so mean. If people

653
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 3: could have debate over issues that isn't political and isn't partisan,

654
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 3: it's it's a pleasure. Also. The last thing is you

655
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 3: can have a point of That's what I would say.

656
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 3: I have a point of view and I get it

657
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 3: through and so I think that's the reason I think

658
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 3: I'm really successful is I'm very clear about my point

659
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 3: of view, and I think some interviews pretend they don't

660
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 3: have one, and I think it's really helpful to listeners

661
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 3: to have one.

662
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: I like that, Yeah, it's funny. I've received that feedback

663
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 1: before from Adam Grant. Actually, more about sharing more of

664
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 1: my own strategies, which I sometimes do, but I do

665
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 1: kind of stay away from that because I'm like, no, no, no,

666
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: this is about the guest, and that's what listeners that.

667
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 3: People are tuning into you, not the guests. It's your interview.

668
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 3: I'll tell I'll give you one piece of ass. I

669
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 3: got the best piece of besse I ever got my

670
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 3: life from a professional. Thing is I was writing my

671
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 3: first book on AOL and I was overwhelmed. I was

672
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 3: a young reporter and I was good, but I still

673
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 3: was very early in my career, and I was just

674
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 3: beside myself because I interviewed all these people and there

675
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 3: was so much information. There's just so much coming in,

676
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 3: and I didn't know quite how to organize it. And

677
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 3: I called a friend of mine who wrote true crime

678
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 3: novels of all things. I love those book kind of books.

679
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 3: You know, she'd cover a trial and then write a

680
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 3: novel and not a novel, a nonfiction book about some

681
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 3: crime or whatever. And I said, I don't know what

682
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 3: to do. I'm just going crazy. The only person I

683
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 3: know who's written a book, and she said, it's not

684
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 3: because it's not the whole. It's not the story of AOL.

685
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 3: It's your story of AOL. What's your story? What do

686
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 3: you want to say about it? And I was like, Oh,

687
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 3: it's not the story, it's a story. And I was like, oh,

688
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 3: oh that's easy. I'll tell you what I think of this.

689
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 3: So that was a really helpful thing. That's still to

690
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 3: this day, it's twenty thirty years on whatever, I'm still like,

691
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 3: what is my story?

692
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: My final question for you is for listeners that want

693
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 1: to consume more of what you're doing, what's the best

694
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: way for them to do that?

695
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 3: Oh, lots of ways. Very I make a lot of content. Well,

696
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 3: some of it's free, some of it, all of it's free.

697
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 3: You just have to listen to an ad. You can

698
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 3: listen This Way podcast at the New York Times if

699
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 3: you want, and you could listen you can dig into

700
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 3: things you like or not whatever. They're very long and

701
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 3: they take commitment on your on behalf. I assume you're

702
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 3: a smart person, So if you're tuning in, you're not

703
00:31:56,160 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 3: going to get reductive, twitchy bullshit. Secondly, pivot you'll get reductive,

704
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 3: twitchy bullshit. No, No, it's more fun. It's news topical.

705
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 3: It's really fast and funny, and we sometimes have interview.

706
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 3: We have interviews every week on a Friend of pivot

707
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 3: and different things, and it's really fun. It's easy to consume.

708
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 3: It's super easy consume. We might column in the New

709
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 3: York Times, I write, I have an events that I do,

710
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 3: and I'm always I do Twitter lives and Twitter spaces

711
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 3: a lot, and I wander around my neighborhood a lot.

712
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 3: You can find me DC. I was coming out of

713
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 3: a target yesterday, yesterday, Yeah, and I was wearing a

714
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 3: mask in my sunglasses because people know me by my

715
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 3: sunglasses right as I always do. And I was coming.

716
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,479
Speaker 3: Then this guy's gone, and he goes, it's you. And

717
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 3: I was like, what. He goes, you go to stores?

718
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 3: You said you went to stores. And I was like,

719
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 3: oh my god, Hi, And he goes, it's great to

720
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 3: meet you. And like he felt like he had a

721
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 3: relationship with me, which was great, and I really thought, good,

722
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 3: good for me, good for him. Like that he said something,

723
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 3: and then we ended up talking about retail. Where it

724
00:32:58,120 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 3: was going.

725
00:32:58,640 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 2: That's awesome.

726
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 1: I will link to old in the show notes as

727
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: well as your local target.

728
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 3: Find me in the local target. In friendship, heates, I

729
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,959
Speaker 3: don't live up there. I was up there doing something,

730
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 3: but you can find me wandering around it. I'm often

731
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 3: in hardware stores. Hey love hardware stores.

732
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 2: Good to note.

733
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 1: We'll link to some of your local ones in the

734
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 1: show notes. Kara, It's been an absolute joy. Thank you

735
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: so much for your time.

736
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 3: All Right, thank you so much.

737
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 2: That is it for today's show.

738
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 1: If you haven't already, hit subscribe or follow on this podcast,

739
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: you might want to do that. Next week, I'm very

740
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: excited to share an interview with a tech entrepreneur called

741
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 1: Sam Carcos, who is the founder and CEO of a

742
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 1: company that you probably haven't heard of called Levels, who

743
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 1: are doing some awesome, awesome stuff in the area of

744
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 1: health tech. And I got to say, after interviewing Sam,

745
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 1: I can definitely conclude that he is one of the

746
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 1: nerdiest productivity people that I've spoken to, and I mean

747
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 1: that in a very very complimentary way. It is jam

748
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: packed with practical tips to get better at your work.

749
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,439
Speaker 1: So hit subscribe or follow if you haven't already. How

750
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 1: I Work is produced by Inventium with production support from

751
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:15,839
Speaker 1: Dead Said Studios.

752
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:17,280
Speaker 2: The producer for this.

753
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: Episode was the marvelous Jenna Koda, and thank you to

754
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 1: Martin Nimba, who does the audio mix for all of

755
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 1: How I work and makes everything sound awesome.

756
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 2: See you next week.