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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: wants answers.

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Speaker 1: Now, Gooday, this is doctor Justin Colson, really excited for

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Speaker 1: today's conversation. Now and then I get to talk to

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Speaker 1: people who just inspire me. There's no other word for it.

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Speaker 1: And over the last few years, Gus Warland is one

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Speaker 1: of those people. Gus is a much loved ossie TV

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Speaker 1: and radio host, is into his sport, and he's also

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Speaker 1: a passionate advocate for building the mental fitness of all ossies.

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Speaker 1: Gus is the founder of Gotcha for Life. In fact,

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Speaker 1: Gus participated in our Bringing Up Boys summit just a

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Speaker 1: few months back and really made a big impact. Got

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Speaker 1: so many emails from people who loved what Gus had

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Speaker 1: to say. You may remember he had an ABC series

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Speaker 1: called Man Up. And Gus also works really hard in

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Speaker 1: helping us to do everything that we can to not

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Speaker 1: lose people to suicide, especially when we look at the

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Speaker 1: man crisis that seems to be happening around US Astralia

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Speaker 1: at the moment. Recent news, of course, with Paul Green's

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Speaker 1: tragic passing, just emphasizes that tomorrow is are You Okay?

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Speaker 2: Day?

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Speaker 1: And because of that, I couldn't think of a more

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Speaker 1: important person to talk today, a more helpful person to

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Speaker 1: talk to today than Gus Warland, he joins me on

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Speaker 1: the Happy Families podcast. Now, Gus, thank you for being here.

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Speaker 1: It's so good to see you.

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Speaker 2: It's a pleasure, doctor, always a pleasure. I enjoyed the

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Speaker 2: summit very much. I'm glad that people got something out

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Speaker 2: of it. And yeah, a huge day, are you ok? Day?

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Speaker 2: But only one day in the calendar, isn't it. We're

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Speaker 2: going to make sure we look after each other every day,

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Speaker 2: but it's nice to have a day that we can

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Speaker 2: focus on and get everyone sort of reset. I suppose

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Speaker 2: to make sure you're looking after the people that are

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Speaker 2: important to you.

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Speaker 1: How are we going with mental health from the research

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Speaker 1: that you're doing in the work that you're doing in

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Speaker 1: terms of helping to improve the mental health mental fitness

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Speaker 1: of Australians. What's the feedback you're getting, what are you seeing?

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Speaker 2: Definitely think we're getting better. Long way to go, though,

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Speaker 2: So if i'd like to put it in a sports analogy,

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Speaker 2: we're sort of forty neeled down at halftime, but then

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Speaker 2: we score the first try in the second half man.

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Speaker 2: It's sort of it's an uphill battle because we have

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Speaker 2: to unlearn a lot of stuff that we've been learning

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Speaker 2: all our lives, and then we have to relearn this

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Speaker 2: other stuff, and then we have to practice it, and

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Speaker 2: then we have to feel confident about actually doing it.

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Speaker 2: That's why I like to call it mental fitness. At

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Speaker 2: the moment, we're sort of fifteen kilos overweight, and we

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Speaker 2: want to run the New York Marathon in six months.

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Speaker 2: So that's where we're at. So we need to get

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Speaker 2: into the gym and work hard. And that means today,

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Speaker 2: everyone that's listening to us right now, it's up to

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Speaker 2: you to make that change. Put the line in the

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Speaker 2: sand and say, you know what, no more, I'm not

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Speaker 2: having anyone around me worrying alone. I'm going to show

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Speaker 2: some vulnerability myself, and I'm going to let people know

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Speaker 2: it's not all fantastic all the time. I'm going to

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Speaker 2: be open and honest with them. I'm going to be

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Speaker 2: human with them, and that way we're going to build

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Speaker 2: a much nicer opportunity to talk about the stuff that's

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Speaker 2: truly important, the stuff at the moment we just don't

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Speaker 2: talk about because we've been told all our lives. Don't

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Speaker 2: do that winging bastard that brings everyone down. Well, it's

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Speaker 2: time to tell the people you love what's truly going

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Speaker 2: on between you two ears. Gus.

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Speaker 1: When you look at the things that you've just described,

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Speaker 1: this opening up and talking and kind of in some ways,

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Speaker 1: it's the reversal are you okay? I mean we go

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Speaker 1: to somebody and say are you okay, and we expect

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Speaker 1: that they're going to open up to us. But what

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Speaker 1: you're really describing is sit down with someone that you

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Speaker 1: know might be struggling and have a conversation with them

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Speaker 1: about how you're struggling. That's what I'm actually hearing you say.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, people say to me all the time. That

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Speaker 2: was actually a really good example for you and your listeners.

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Speaker 2: Is one of my mates that we walk every Sunday

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Speaker 2: and there's about ten of us. We've known each other

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Speaker 2: since prep school and one of the guys who I

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Speaker 2: absolutely love, three weeks in a row he came and

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Speaker 2: then on the fourth week he just said, I'll make

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Speaker 2: nd of a chat to you after we had our

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Speaker 2: walk and coffee and I said, of course, mate, and

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Speaker 2: he said, you know what. The last three weeks. I've

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Speaker 2: been really struggling and no one's no one said anything

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Speaker 2: to me, and I said, well, when you turned up

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Speaker 2: and said get a boys, how are you going? And

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Speaker 2: we all said get a how are you going? Did

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Speaker 2: you tell us that you're struggling? And he goes, well, no,

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Speaker 2: I just didn't want to sort of bring the group

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Speaker 2: down before we went for a walk and go well,

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Speaker 2: this is what I'm talking about mental fitness. Is it

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Speaker 2: You've been able to walk into a group of mates

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Speaker 2: that love you and say, you know what, boys, actually

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Speaker 2: I'm not troubling well, and the reason I'm here this

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Speaker 2: morning is just to get your opinion on a few

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Speaker 2: things that are going on in my head, or grab

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Speaker 2: one of us like you are right now with me

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Speaker 2: at the end of the walk and go god. I

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Speaker 2: had to really sort of fax that in there this morning.

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Speaker 2: I had to really fake it till I made it.

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Speaker 2: I'm really struggling at the moment. Can we have a talk.

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Speaker 2: That's where I want to get Australians to get to,

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Speaker 2: is where you can actually feel that you can actually

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Speaker 2: walk into a group, put your hand up and say

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Speaker 2: I need help. Because it's very hard for blokes in

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Speaker 2: particularly to pick up other blokes who are struggling. Us

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Speaker 2: blokes are so good at putting on a mask and

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Speaker 2: making out that everything's okay when it isn't, and everyone's

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Speaker 2: so busy and stuff. It's really up to the person

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Speaker 2: that is struggling to have the emotional muscle to go, hey,

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Speaker 2: can you help me? I hosted an event for Surf

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Speaker 2: Life Saving Australia a couple of weekends ago as there

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Speaker 2: big national conference, the first one in three years because

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Speaker 2: of COVID, and this young fifteen year old boy stuck

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Speaker 2: hand up doctor at the end of my chat nut

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Speaker 2: and he said, can I ask you a question? I said,

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Speaker 2: of course, And he goes, If I'm sitting on the

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Speaker 2: beach with my patrol and we see someone in the

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Speaker 2: water and they're in trouble and they put their hand up,

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden, there's this process that goes into play.

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Speaker 2: We go in and hopefully we save the guy and

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Speaker 2: we bring him back to the beach and everything's okay.

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Speaker 2: Why don't we put our hand up on the sands.

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Speaker 2: Why don't we put our hand up in the car

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Speaker 2: park of the beach. Why don't we put our hand

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Speaker 2: up at home? Or at the office to say I

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Speaker 2: need your help. Why do we need to go to

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Speaker 2: the point where we're really really desperate before some people

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Speaker 2: put up their hands and of course we know a

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Speaker 2: lot of people don't put their hands up at all.

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Speaker 2: I've been so lucky over the last few years to

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Speaker 2: speak to over two thousand people that have tried to

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Speaker 2: take their life, but they're still with us, thank god.

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Speaker 2: And when I've asked them the question, why not one

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Speaker 2: of them wanted to die? Not one? But they were

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Speaker 2: all in pain and they're all tired. So if you

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Speaker 2: have pain and tiredness and those combined and for some

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Speaker 2: people for months and years, then eventually you'll make poor

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Speaker 2: decisions if you're tired and in pain. So that's what

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Speaker 2: we need to get to, doctor, a point where people,

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Speaker 2: if they're are starting to get tired, they are starting

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Speaker 2: to be in pain, they stick their hand up to

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Speaker 2: the people they love or to a professional and say, hey,

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Speaker 2: I need your help. That's the bravest, manliest thing you

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Speaker 2: can do. It's not man up, shut up anymore. It's

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Speaker 2: man up, speaker, Gus.

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Speaker 1: There's a couple of things that I want to pull

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Speaker 1: out of what you've just said, The first is my

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Speaker 1: wife Kylie recently read a book. It was called Like

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Speaker 1: the Boy, the Mole, The Fox and the Horse or

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Speaker 1: something like that, beautiful adult picture book, and there's this

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Speaker 1: line in the book that says, the question is asked,

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Speaker 1: what's the bravest thing you've ever done, What's the bravest

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Speaker 1: thing you've ever said, or something like that, and the

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Speaker 1: response from the boy is help, bravest thing over did?

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Speaker 2: With say help?

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Speaker 1: And I love the story that you've just shared about

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Speaker 1: that maybe yours that you walk with, because essentially that's

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Speaker 1: what it's taken him three or four weeks to get there.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's right, but he also having a slight dig.

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Speaker 2: But it's right. It's accusatory, like you're out there doing

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Speaker 2: all this work stuff and here I am one of

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Speaker 2: your best mates and you're not picking up on the

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Speaker 2: fact that I'm struggling. I'm like, mate, that's it's not

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Speaker 2: my job to do that. It's your job to tell

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Speaker 2: me that you need help, and then it's my job

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Speaker 2: to WHOA, Okay, I can't fix it, but I'm a

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Speaker 2: part of your village now that can give you the

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Speaker 2: help that you require. That's what I want to get to.

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Speaker 2: Of course, if I saw that he was struggling, if

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Speaker 2: I saw that he wasn't his normal self, I would

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Speaker 2: have picked up on it. But he wasn't. He tiding

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Speaker 2: it up. We high fired, We hugged one on our walk.

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Speaker 2: We had our breakfast. Everyone was laughing. He doesn't eat,

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Speaker 2: He only drinks juices, so he gets three juices when

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Speaker 2: everyone else gets an egg and bacon roll. And I

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Speaker 2: just remember, at the end of the night, the end

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Speaker 2: of the day, we're laughing about the fact that he

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Speaker 2: had a mango juice, a berry juice, and a something else.

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Speaker 2: At not one point did I ever pick up that

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Speaker 2: he wasn't in good form. But he tells me ten

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Speaker 2: minutes later, Hey, I'm not traveling too well. So that's

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Speaker 2: where I'd like to get to, is where people can

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Speaker 2: walk into a group of mates that they love, or

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Speaker 2: if they don't have that village, talk to a professional

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Speaker 2: and say I'm here to get the help. This is

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Speaker 2: how I cruly feel like so many people go to

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Speaker 2: and get counseling and get support, but they don't tell

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Speaker 2: the people the truth. For some reason, they're still holding

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Speaker 2: stuff back. This is not the time to do that.

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Speaker 2: It's the time to be truthful and honest and bear all.

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Speaker 2: You know, vulnerability is a new way of leading. I

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Speaker 2: think yeah.

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Speaker 1: And what's ironic about that is they'll sit down with

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Speaker 1: the counselor maybe they'll actually be honest with the sic

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Speaker 1: or the counselor, but they don't tell anyone that they're

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Speaker 1: going to get the help because they think that they've

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Speaker 1: got to do it on their own. Hey, after the break,

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the process. You've highlighted this

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Speaker 1: story about the surf life saved kid who's saying, we've

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Speaker 1: got a process. When someone sticks up their hand, there's

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Speaker 1: a process to get them out of the water safely.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about the process for helping a

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Speaker 1: friend who actually needs help because they're not okay. Speaking

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Speaker 1: with Gus Wallan, he's helping us out with are you okay?

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Speaker 1: Day being tomorrow more next. Neurodiverse children up beautiful, but

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Speaker 1: they also bring unique challenges for parents and educators. The

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Speaker 1: world does not always accommodate them easily or well. Communication, affection, behavior, learning,

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Speaker 1: and almost every other aspect of life can be challenging

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Speaker 1: for the child and their families. The webinar a Parent's

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Speaker 1: Guide to autism by leaving autism expert Michelle Garnett can

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Speaker 1: help parents and educators strengthen the bond with their autistic

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Speaker 1: children for better outcomes for children and families. A Parent's

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Speaker 1: Guide to Autism is available at Happy Families dot com

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Speaker 1: dot a U. It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast

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Speaker 1: for the time for parent who just wants answers Now.

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Speaker 1: This podcast is less about parenting and more about just

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Speaker 1: being okay. Tomorrow it's are You Okay Day. Gus Warland,

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Speaker 1: the guy behind the ABC series Man Up and the

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Speaker 1: founder of Gotcha for Life? You were talking about this

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Speaker 1: surf life saving kid fifteen years old highlights that there's

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Speaker 1: a process. Somebody's in the water, they're in trouble, they

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Speaker 1: stick their hand up, or the life savers see that

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Speaker 1: someone's in trouble and they've got a process that they

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Speaker 1: go through to extract that person and hopefully keep them

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Speaker 1: alive and bring them back to the sand and look

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Speaker 1: after of them. When somebody isn't doing okay, that is,

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Speaker 1: we say to them, hey, are you doing okay, or

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Speaker 1: perhaps we sit down with them and say geez, I'm

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Speaker 1: struggling and they say, yeah, me too. In fact, I'm

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Speaker 1: in real trouble and they open up to us and

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Speaker 1: they say, I'm in strife here. What have you found

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Speaker 1: is you've had all these conversations, done all these workshops,

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Speaker 1: sat down with some of the most well educated people

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Speaker 1: in this area in Australia, let alone the world. What

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Speaker 1: is the process that we might follow if we want

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Speaker 1: to be the metaphorical lifeguards in our friends and families world.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. First, firstly, and it's something I'm working on still

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Speaker 2: all the time myself is being a good listener. We've

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Speaker 2: got two ears in one mouth. There's a good sort

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Speaker 2: of way of looking at life. We should be listening

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Speaker 2: twice as much as the time that we're talking. So

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Speaker 2: and that's as a general rule. We're not great listeners.

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Speaker 2: Blokes in particular, my wife would certainly tell you that,

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Speaker 2: and I'm sure your wife would sell that to me

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Speaker 2: if we sat around and had a cup of tea.

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Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, we've got to

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Speaker 2: be better listeners. And we've also got to get used

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Speaker 2: to getting in the grind in terms of like when

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Speaker 2: I talk about mental fitness, you know, those conversations are

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Speaker 2: those really hard sessions that you don't want to do

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Speaker 2: at the end of the week, when it's so easy

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Speaker 2: to not turn up and just say I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to do it. So to get comfortable with being uncomfortable,

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Speaker 2: and for men in particular, we hate not being in control.

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Speaker 2: So all of a sudden, we could be in a

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Speaker 2: conversation or walking into a conversation that we just have

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Speaker 2: no control over. So there's a lot of stuff there

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Speaker 2: which will stop us doing the work that we need

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Speaker 2: to do. A because it's uncomfortable, B we don't like it,

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Speaker 2: and C it's actually really it's something that we're not

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Speaker 2: very good at. So that's why I talk about practicing

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Speaker 2: these conversations and diving into these conversations are the best

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Speaker 2: way to do it, or use technology. I had a

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Speaker 2: session yesterday with a whole lot of blokes that are

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Speaker 2: energy company five hundred blokes in particular, that don't necessarily

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Speaker 2: talk about this stuff as a general rule, and I said,

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Speaker 2: you know that conversation face to face where someone's saying

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Speaker 2: I love you and the tears running down the eyes.

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Speaker 2: I said, that's for the movies in the TV. Use

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Speaker 2: technology to break the ice to start having these conversations

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Speaker 2: that we need to have. So I asked them to

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Speaker 2: send out a text message I love you, I miss you,

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Speaker 2: see you soon, kis hug, kiss hugg. And when I

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Speaker 2: say I love you, there's no dimojis. We're talking about

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Speaker 2: I love you, love and the proper words, and send

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Speaker 2: it off and then turn all all your vibrates and

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Speaker 2: your ding ding, so when you get a reply, everyone

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Speaker 2: in the room can hear that you've got to reply.

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Speaker 2: Then I'll give you the microphone and you can tell

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Speaker 2: us what the people have replied to. So the replies

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Speaker 2: generally are are you drunk? I thought you were at

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Speaker 2: work today? Did someone hack your phone? Are you okay? Mate?

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Speaker 2: Bloke's ringing up, blokes going hey, we don't talk this

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Speaker 2: way to each other. Is everything okay? All of a sudden,

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Speaker 2: it makes people laugh and have a good time because

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Speaker 2: it breaks up this conversation which I have with them,

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Speaker 2: which is quite heavy and quite emotional. But at the

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Speaker 2: end of the day, it shows that it's a very

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Speaker 2: simple takeaway that you can use technology to start these

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Speaker 2: conversations because at the moment we're not starting the conversation,

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Speaker 2: so we need to start them in some way. So

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Speaker 2: my advice to you guys and all the parents out

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Speaker 2: there is to actually dive into it, but stop being

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Speaker 2: a parent for that moment, especially if it's with your child,

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Speaker 2: you know, to actually ask them and then sit there

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Speaker 2: and wait for them to talk, and it might take

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Speaker 2: twenty minutes to actually get a proper conversation started. Try

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Speaker 2: to do it in a place where you know you've

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Speaker 2: got plenty of time, or if you've got a long

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Speaker 2: car journey, or are you're going for a walk together

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Speaker 2: or whatever it might be, try not to have it

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Speaker 2: face to face. Initially have it shouldered to shoulder, which

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Speaker 2: is why exercise in the car ride is such a

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Speaker 2: good idea. But at the moment, no one's having these conversations,

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Speaker 2: or not enough people are having these conversations, So it's

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Speaker 2: more about just diving in and having a crack, but

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Speaker 2: also realizing that you haven't got all the answers. You're

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Speaker 2: not there to go right. Okay, thanks for telling me

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Speaker 2: what the problem is. Here's how I'm going to fix it.

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Speaker 2: Because you don't truly know what's truly going on from

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Speaker 2: one conversation, so it's time for you to listen, take

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Speaker 2: it all on board, and actually let your child know,

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Speaker 2: in particular that you're now part of their village, which

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Speaker 2: can help them with it. You're not there to fix it,

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Speaker 2: and you're certainly not there for a quick fix.

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Speaker 1: Can't help it. Jump in here. Two things strike me

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Speaker 1: as you share what you've just done with this process.

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Speaker 1: Number one, the fact that so many people are saying,

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Speaker 1: are you drunk? Is there's something the matter? What's going

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Speaker 1: on with you? It emphasizes how poorly so many of

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Speaker 1: us communicate our real feelings. And these are good things, right.

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Speaker 1: It's not like we're saying I've got problems, I'm depressed,

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Speaker 1: I'm in trouble. Is I love you? You mean the

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Speaker 1: world to me. I'm so grateful for you. This is

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Speaker 1: a positive one and people are saying, are you all right?

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Speaker 1: I love I love that you're asking them to do that,

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Speaker 1: and I just wish that we could do that more.

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Speaker 1: The second thing that jumps out at me is whenever

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Speaker 1: I have an AUOK day conversation with people, a lot

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Speaker 1: of people say, yeah, but what do I say when

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Speaker 1: they tell me they're not?

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Speaker 2: What do I say?

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Speaker 1: And I love how you've just said you'd Actually you

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Speaker 1: don't say anything, You just listen because you can't fix it,

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Speaker 1: and people don't need fixing. When you try to fix somebody,

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Speaker 1: they internalize that as you think I'm broken. That's why

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Speaker 1: they can't be vulnerable with this. They don't want to

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Speaker 1: be told that they're broken. They've got the answers inside them,

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Speaker 1: they just need that. I love how you've said that.

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Speaker 1: I had a conversation with a mate just recently, and

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Speaker 1: while we were chatting, I said to him, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know why I'm telling you this, but I'm

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Speaker 1: really struggling with this thing at the moment and it's

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Speaker 1: just it's on my mind. I'm running it by you.

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Speaker 2: I don't expect you to.

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Speaker 1: Have an answer, but gee, it's hard sometimes, isn't it?

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Speaker 1: Like it's just really hard?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: And he turned around and said, oh, it's so hard.

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Speaker 1: And then for the next half an hour, gus he

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Speaker 1: he wept as he told me about some challenges that

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Speaker 1: he's had in his life and how he's trying to

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Speaker 1: overcome them. I mean, it was, it was a profound,

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Speaker 1: It was an incredible conversation. He didn't need an AUOK question.

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Speaker 1: What he actually needed was for the guy standing beside

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Speaker 1: him to say, I'm having a rough time. And it

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Speaker 1: turned into one of the most delightful conversations that I

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Speaker 1: can remember having in years. When I think about the process,

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Speaker 1: when I hear the conversation that you've just had with me,

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Speaker 1: I'm summarizing now I'm hearing, don't try to fix it,

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Speaker 1: just listen. You don't actually have to do anything, And

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Speaker 1: then if they're really stuck, say well, how can I

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Speaker 1: help you? Like that's that's kind of it exactly.

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Speaker 2: I talk about my village all the time. So I

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Speaker 2: get your listeners to write down a list of all

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Speaker 2: the people they love and the door and they cannot

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Speaker 2: imagine living without. So then give yourself a mark out

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Speaker 2: of ten for how you're performing within those individual relationships.

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Speaker 2: If you've got a seven, six, five, four, three, two

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Speaker 2: one out of ten, go to work on those relationships

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Speaker 2: and start the ball rolling with the text message the icebreaker.

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Speaker 2: I've been thinking about you. There's lots going on in

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Speaker 2: my life at the moment, and I just slow down

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Speaker 2: enough to realize the people that are important to me,

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Speaker 2: and you're one of them. Just wanted to let you

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Speaker 2: know now that text message is not for you. It's

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Speaker 2: for the person that receives it. So lovely to get

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Speaker 2: something unsolicited like, Oh, isn't that nice to hear? It

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Speaker 2: just builds a slightly better, deeper relationship. And that's all

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Speaker 2: what we're really doing. That conversation with you and your mate.

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Speaker 2: You gave him permission because all of a sudden, he

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Speaker 2: could look at you and go, look at you. You're

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Speaker 2: flying your beautiful family, You're doing this, You're doing that.

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Speaker 2: I can't possibly ruin on his parade. I don't want

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Speaker 2: to be that guy. All of a sudden, you said,

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Speaker 2: te sometimes it's tough. You gave him a little opening,

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Speaker 2: and he went, I'm taking that opening because I've been

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Speaker 2: wanting to tell you for ages this is what's going

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Speaker 2: on in my life. It's incredible. If you build that

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Speaker 2: safe environment, you showed some vulnerability, you led with vulnerability.

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Speaker 2: It opened up this conversation which was so much nicer

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Speaker 2: than it would have been. And if you're just talking

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Speaker 2: about ABC having a coffee and looking out onto the beach.

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Speaker 2: So that's where we need to get to again. We

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Speaker 2: are not having deep and meaningful conversations every time we talk.

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Speaker 2: We're not having conversations will be burst into tears every

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Speaker 2: five minutes. But just have that in your locker to

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Speaker 2: the people that you love the most, have those skills,

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Speaker 2: build those skills, go to the workshops that we can

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Speaker 2: bebind to get the emotional muscle so he can have

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Speaker 2: that conversation when you need it.

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Speaker 1: Gus, our times up. Last words for are you okay?

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Speaker 2: Day tomorrow? Yeah? Don't worry alone. That's the most important thing.

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Speaker 2: So if someone does ask you that question, tell them

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Speaker 2: the truth. And if you're that person that ask someone

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Speaker 2: are you oka and they turn around and say you

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Speaker 2: know what I'm not, then stop and listen. That's the

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Speaker 2: most important thing at the moment. I reckon, we give

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Speaker 2: our uak a bit of a bit of a dud ride,

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Speaker 2: we go a U okay, yeah mate, no worries at

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Speaker 2: all and you keep moving and you never have that conversation. Well,

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Speaker 2: listen to the person and be ready to get an

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Speaker 2: answer of no, and do try to fix them. Just

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Speaker 2: be part of their village that can help them get

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Speaker 2: the solutions down the track. This is something that we

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Speaker 2: need to be better at. Better listeners, be kinder to

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Speaker 2: each other and support each other.

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Speaker 1: Gus love talking to you. You're so generous. Thanks so

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Speaker 1: much for being with me. If people want more information

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Speaker 1: about you or gotcha for life. Where do they go?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they got to gotcha for life dot org. That's

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Speaker 2: got cha, the number four Life dot org. It's got

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Speaker 2: all the details there our website and if I can

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Speaker 2: help you or any of your listeners, you know I

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Speaker 2: always will. Mate.

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Speaker 1: You're awesome, Thanks Gus. Details are in the show notes.

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Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Rowland from

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Speaker 1: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive Bridge and if

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Speaker 1: you want more info about how to make your family happier,

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Speaker 1: please join us at happy families dot com dot i

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Speaker 1: u