1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 1: This is gem Nation with gen Would you rather meet 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:09,400 Speaker 1: people face to face or through messaging? Would? How would 3 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: you be without a phone? Well, our next guest is 4 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:16,920 Speaker 1: putting these questions to kids. The responses are surprising, sometimes sad, 5 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: and in many ways scary. Todd Samson is back with 6 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: season two of Mirror Mirror, exploring how the Internet is 7 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: changing us and what we can do about it. Hello, Todd, 8 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: how are yeah? 9 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 2: Good morning, Good to see you. 10 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: They're big questions. 11 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 2: There are big questions, and the film was well. The 12 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 2: opening segment is a little bit like it's borderline what 13 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 2: you can put on television, but it is completely normal 14 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:41,160 Speaker 2: for kids. 15 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: What does that mean? 16 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 2: Well, we open with a scene where we have a 17 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 2: former police officer and an experiment and an actress who's 18 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 2: playing fourteen years old and they're on a site called Omegle, 19 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 2: and Omegle is super popular with kids and almost unknown 20 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 2: to parents and base It's a video chat, side live cams, 21 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,040 Speaker 2: no age restrictions. So we're on there as a fourteen 22 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 2: year old. I'm controlling what the conversation by messaging within 23 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 2: ten minutes, groomed within ten minutes, masturbating. He literally just 24 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:23,119 Speaker 2: said to her, take up your top and I was typing, 25 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 2: going my mom's downstairs. I'm only fourteen. He's like, shut 26 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 2: up up your top now, and he eventually groomed me 27 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 2: off onto Instagram or you could get more details. That's 28 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 2: ten minutes. So then I got so it gets worse, right, 29 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 2: So then we do this experiment with this police officer. 30 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 2: Then I go home to tell my daughters, my teenage daughters. 31 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 2: I'm like all energized about it, and I'm said, girls, 32 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 2: there's this site. It's called omegal. It's full of predators 33 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 2: and criminal activity. You know, please avoid it. And they 34 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 2: both look to the ground. They know it and I 35 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 2: and they said, and I'm not a boomer, but they said, Dad, 36 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 2: don't be a boomer. We've been on that side for 37 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 2: three years. Everyone's on it at school. And that's how 38 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 2: the film opens, setting the stage for how our children 39 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 2: and us as individuals are interacting in this world, in 40 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 2: this unregulated, unpoliced environment. 41 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 1: Is the genie out of the bottle. We spoke recently 42 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:25,079 Speaker 1: to Johann Hari for his book Stolen Focus. His thing is, 43 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: it's not our fault that we're also obsessed with our 44 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: phones and social media, because we've been bombarded with it, 45 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: but we have to remember it's only been around for 46 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: ten thousand days. We can change this, yes, but only 47 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: if we want to. Maybe we're the only ones who 48 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: want to. 49 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 2: Yes. Well, I do think, and he has been an 50 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 2: inspiration for me, and the Social Dilemma as a film 51 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 2: has been an inspiration for me. I think we are 52 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 2: on the cusp of change. But where we currently stand 53 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 2: is four point six billion people are linked in an 54 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 2: experiment controlled primarily by a handful of white American men, 55 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 2: and they are completely unregulated. You're regulated. You can't just 56 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 2: say whatever you want as broadcasters. They under Section two 57 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:12,519 Speaker 2: thirty an American law. They're declared neutral platforms. They can 58 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:18,359 Speaker 2: say Alex Jones, the conspiracy area was recommended fifteen billion 59 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 2: times by YouTube, fifteen billions. 60 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: This is the guy who says that Sandy Hook was 61 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: a conspiracy. 62 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 2: And they are a Lactus Crisis actors. Yes, he's not, 63 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 2: and he's recommended by the platform. So the platforms have 64 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 2: no self regulation. But yet they have access to our kids' 65 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 2: minds by the minutes. Like on average in Australia, kids 66 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 2: are spending six hours, Like I opened up my screen 67 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 2: time of my youngest daughter and she spent forty seven 68 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 2: hours one week on TikTok. It's like, what wait, wait, 69 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 2: wait now, But here's the thing we used to believe, 70 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 2: so this experiment is still new. As you just pointed out, 71 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 2: we used to believe the fundamental problem was screen time. 72 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 2: And Stat's say, if if your child is on the 73 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 2: internet more than two hours a day on social media, particularly, 74 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 2: they're at risk. They now believe because the data has 75 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 2: come in, they now believe the fundamental issue that relates 76 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 2: to increases in mental health issues, depression, self harm, suicide 77 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:20,720 Speaker 2: is correlated directly to the introduction of the like button 78 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 2: in two thousand and nine, and the stats just the 79 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:25,720 Speaker 2: numbers just go up as soon as two thousand and 80 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 2: nine happens likes and. 81 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 3: Then they took the like button away, and then they 82 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 3: put it back, and. 83 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 2: They brought it back straight away, because the like button 84 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 2: is the ultimate way of understanding us. They understanding our preferences. 85 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 2: It's one of the best ways to track us. And 86 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:43,840 Speaker 2: it's also unbelievably addictive because we get that little dopamine 87 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 2: hit when someone likes our content. And we have a 88 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 2: lot of kids in the film that talk about this, 89 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 2: how good they feel when someone likes how affirmed they feel, 90 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 2: and that affirmation now is like there are more influencers 91 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,159 Speaker 2: have more impact now on our children than schools or 92 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 2: even us as parents, because they're impact that they have 93 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 2: hundreds and millions of followers and they're in contact with 94 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 2: kids every twenty minutes. 95 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: We'll see, then, what's the good news? This is all frightening. 96 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 2: So the good news is I think we're on the 97 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 2: cusp of a revolution when it comes to the Internet. 98 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 2: And on a positive note, the Internet companies want us 99 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 2: to believe it's binary. They want us to believe that 100 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 2: you either get all of the Internet, this is Mark 101 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 2: Zuckerberg's argument, or you get none of it. We need 102 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 2: to regulate one percent. We need regulation when it comes 103 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 2: to these things. 104 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: Government regulation, government regulation. 105 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 2: And I'm not a huge fan of government regulation because 106 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 2: the government tend to be inept at regulating, especially commercial 107 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 2: but in this case, we absolutely need it. So there 108 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 2: are two levels of things we can do. We can 109 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 2: keep all the good of the Internet and make it safer, 110 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 2: and then we as individuals and parents. There are plenty 111 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 2: of things, and we talk about it in the film, 112 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 2: that we can do to safeguard ourselves and one thing 113 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 2: I strongly recommend it and it has changed a lot 114 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 2: of people, which is turn off all notifications on your phone, 115 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 2: including ring. If you really want to go for it, 116 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 2: there's a simple button, you just click it and all notifications. 117 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 2: That way, no one's controlling your attention except for you. 118 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 2: When you want to look at things, you choose to 119 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 2: do it. And then the second thing I'd recommend, especially 120 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 2: for people in the media, is get all social media 121 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 2: off your mobile device. So if you want it, leave it, 122 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 2: leave it on your computer, off the mobile device, and 123 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 2: it's incredible. You'll see you will not be able to 124 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 2: stop touching your phone, and yet it won't be there 125 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:36,840 Speaker 2: because you will want to check and check and check 126 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 2: and check. And you'll eventually break that addiction with time. 127 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 3: Because social media, they say it's crack for your brain, 128 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 3: because we get we are so stimulated, and I do 129 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 3: it all the time. Instagram That's where my downfall because 130 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 3: I kept scrolling and then I've set that limit time 131 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 3: for a break twenty minutes. I swear it goes as 132 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 3: quick as anything. 133 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 2: Yes, And the reason that we're on Instagram on all 134 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,799 Speaker 2: of these when they introduced the endless scroll that changed everything. 135 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 2: So the research now says we spend thirty percent more 136 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,039 Speaker 2: time on social media because of the endless roll. And 137 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 2: the endless scroll is basically it never stops like a 138 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 2: slot machine, so you scroll up more content, more content, 139 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 2: more content more. It doesn't end. So when it did 140 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 2: end before endless scroll, there was a moment where your 141 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 2: brain caught up and would have gone, Okay, Jones, time 142 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 2: to get off this. 143 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 3: I've seen puppies. 144 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 2: To Graham, it no longer exists, so it is a 145 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 2: complete endless and they modeled it after the casinos. You 146 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 2: know the usability of it. But I do think that 147 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 2: we are on the cosp of a positive revolution when 148 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 2: it comes to this, and the first step is awareness, 149 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 2: which is why we made this film. And once you 150 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 2: see that, we cover love in the first episode and 151 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 2: how it changes our relationship with each other. We end 152 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 2: with this sort of guy who's genuinely in love with 153 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 2: a virtual bot called Anastagia. I mean, he is really 154 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 2: in love and it's a pretty eye opening relationship. And 155 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 2: you look at that and you go, I can see 156 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 2: Amanda's face slightly contorted what I said when I said 157 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 2: love with a virtual bottom. Yeah, there's already ten million 158 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 2: of those, and if you include Asia, there's hundreds of 159 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 2: millions of these bots that people have relationships with. And 160 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 2: if you are spending fifty six hours a week on 161 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 2: your phone, you're already being conditioned sure to have relationships 162 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 2: with your phone, not with other people. 163 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: And I think and that's much nicer than the real world. 164 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 2: And also their mirrors. Right, So if you create a bot, 165 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:37,679 Speaker 2: that bot learns Amanda really well, all your mannerisms, all 166 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 2: your jokes, all your history. It's all algorithmically based, so 167 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 2: eventually it collects all your data about you and feeds 168 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:45,959 Speaker 2: you back to you. 169 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 3: That box sands and there's putty more bots in the sea. 170 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 3: That's the well, Todd, it's great to talk to you. 171 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 3: I love this. It's Monday, the tenth of October seven 172 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 3: thirty on ten and ten play Todd Sampson. Thanks for 173 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 3: giving something to ponder yet again. 174 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 2: You're welcome.