1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: The Wiggles acknowledge the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia 2 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:07,119 Speaker 1: and their connections to land, see and community. 3 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 2: We pay our. 4 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:10,639 Speaker 3: Respects to elders, past, present and emerging. 5 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to Wiggle Talk, a podcast for parents. I'm Simon Price, 6 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: I'm the Red Wiggle. 7 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 2: And I'm Lucky Gillespie the Purple Wiggle. Hello Simon, Hello Locky, 8 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 2: Good morning, morning afternoon, who knows Hello. Today we are 9 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:38,160 Speaker 2: speaking with Erica Komisa, a New York based psychoanalyst, parent 10 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 2: coach and author about attachment, security and parenting. 11 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 1: It's one of those phrases that gets thrown around a lot, 12 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 1: but what does it actually mean? That's what we're going 13 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:51,160 Speaker 1: to get into. But before we speak to Erica, we 14 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: read those little bits. Locky and I stumbled over a 15 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: few times. You know why why eyesight? Yeah, yeah, Now, 16 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: I've talked about glasses in the past. Now I've had 17 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: glasses for a couple of years now. 18 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 3: Yes. 19 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: And when I first went to the optometrist and had 20 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: my eyes tested because I was in restaurants and my 21 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 1: arms couldn't get any longer to read the menu. So 22 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: I thought, Okay, it's time time to get glasses. I 23 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: asked the optometrists. I said, okay, now here all the time. 24 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:18,399 Speaker 1: I'll start wearing glasses and then my eyes will get 25 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: worse from wearing glasses. And the optometist said, no, that's 26 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: just the normal direction your eyes are going in anyway. 27 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:29,399 Speaker 1: Right now, that kind of makes sense to me. But 28 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: my eyesight. 29 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 2: The TV is about a meter and a half away. 30 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's clear. It's really for up closing. We've 31 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 1: got these notes in front, and that's just kind of 32 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: a blurn ow wow. But I reckon six months ago, 33 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: I could still have read that quite long sid. Yeah, 34 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: that's where I get confused. I think I think I'm longsided, 35 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: which means I need them for reading? 36 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 3: Is that right? 37 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:52,279 Speaker 2: Yes? 38 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 3: I think so. 39 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, So I don't know. I mean this is I'm 40 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: confused about it. So now I'm trying to not wear 41 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: my glasses as much and to see if I can 42 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: retrain my eyes. And I heard fasting. There's a guy 43 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: on Instagram. 44 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:10,519 Speaker 2: Yes, brings her eyes side back. 45 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: He did it for seventy two hours faster and his 46 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: eyes were better. 47 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,359 Speaker 2: Well, next podcast, don't have a dinner or breakfast. Yeah, 48 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 2: and then we'll see what happens. 49 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:20,399 Speaker 3: I might never ease again. 50 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 2: Pick up the bit of paper. Can we try that? 51 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm going to try it for sure. 52 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 2: He'll be hungry. I will be very hungry, you know, 53 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 2: on the plane. Just recently I watched Superman the movie. 54 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, but i'd seen it on Instagram. There's a 55 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 2: cool scene that someone picked up where Superman. Then more 56 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 2: recent one where I think Lois is interviewing him. Yeah, 57 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,519 Speaker 2: he doesn't have the glasses, but there's a distinct shift. 58 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:48,839 Speaker 2: He's like talking to Lois's Clark, and then Lois wants 59 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 2: to interview Superman and he shifts his voice in that 60 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 2: little moment. He goes from Clark to Superman without putting 61 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 2: the glasses on or putting the suit on, and his 62 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 2: voice just shifts very subtly. So will your voice shift 63 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:08,359 Speaker 2: very subtly, which like get a little bit deeper or like. 64 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 3: A little bit. 65 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: You can't get very much deeper, can but you might shift? Well, 66 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 1: this is the thing. So all I'm hearing is you 67 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: think I'm Superman. That's all I've glasses. That's what I 68 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:20,679 Speaker 1: was trying. I don't know, thank you anywhere, but thank 69 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:22,239 Speaker 1: you lucky. They do look good. If you need to 70 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: wear them. Okay, thank you. All right, Well that's okay. 71 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 1: I'm going to fast. 72 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 2: Let's try that. 73 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 3: We'll try that. 74 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 2: You happy to do that? 75 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 3: Hungry at the moment. I haven't eaten this and my 76 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 3: big lunch. 77 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, no dinner, no breakfast. And we'll do podcasting tomorrow 78 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 2: and see if it's no glasses. 79 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: Clear as a bell. Okay, but I think we shall 80 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: get into today's topic. Let's and I'm going to read this, okay, 81 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: I'll help you out. A lot of parenting advice makes 82 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: it sound like you need to do more. That's like 83 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: more activities, more patience, more time you don't have. Erica's 84 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: message is, well, it's a bit different. It's about how 85 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: children build a sense of safety through everyday connection and 86 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: how that safety is often what helps them grow in 87 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 1: confidence over time. 88 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 2: Yes, now, you might have seen Erica recently on The Kardashians. 89 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 2: I didn't, but Simon and Lauren did. 90 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know I love it Kardashian's House. 91 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 2: You know you know that, you know, yes, I do 92 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 2: know you like that show. But this is Erica was 93 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 2: on one of the episodes in conversation with Courtney Kardashian. 94 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 2: Now so I'm a you saw it and he said 95 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 2: hang on. 96 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 3: I said, hang on. We should talk. 97 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 2: About this on the pod because so many parents are 98 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 2: carrying guilt and second guessing themselves, especially when work and 99 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:39,479 Speaker 2: childcare are just part of life. 100 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 1: Yes, so today we're asking, well, we're asking what matters most, 101 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: what doesn't, and what are the small, doable things parents 102 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: can actually try. But starting tomorrow, Erica, welcome. 103 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:51,840 Speaker 3: To will Talk. 104 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 4: Thank you for having me. 105 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 3: It's great to talk to you now. 106 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 1: I actually first came across your work watching an episode 107 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,679 Speaker 1: of The Kardashians. That's how this has all came about. 108 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 1: From then on, we went in a deep dive to 109 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: learn more about you. So it's fantastic that we've been 110 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:10,039 Speaker 1: able to talk with you today. 111 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 4: Well, I'm glad that you found me. However you found. 112 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 3: Me, Yeah, that's right. 113 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: I'd like to blame my wife Lauren for watching The Kardashians, 114 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 1: but I love them, you know, and I admit it, 115 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,280 Speaker 1: I do. I love them on it. 116 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 4: Actually, Coding Kardashian is a very very good mom and 117 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 4: a very strong believer in the importance of attachment security. 118 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, well that's really interesting. So this attachment parenting, 119 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: which is what you talked about and what was talked 120 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: about on the show as well. Are you able to 121 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: explain a little bit more about what that actually means. 122 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 4: Basically, I teach people about the importance of attachment security, 123 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 4: which means that the first three years is what we 124 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 4: call from zero to three is a critical period of 125 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 4: social emotional brain development. And so your right brain or 126 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 4: the social emotional part of your brain is responsible for 127 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 4: there so many important things, including emotional regulation, including the 128 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 4: ability to manage stress in the future, to read social cues, 129 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:11,919 Speaker 4: to be able to connect and relate to other people. 130 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:17,039 Speaker 4: And so we know that the environment is very important 131 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 4: in those first three years, and the environment is really 132 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 4: the mother or the primary attachment figure. So babies are 133 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 4: born neurologically and physically fragile, and so they need to 134 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:32,599 Speaker 4: feel safe and secure. They need contact, physical and emotional 135 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 4: contact with their go to person, the person in the 136 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 4: world who they rely on for that safety, who's usually 137 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 4: the mother. And we really don't talk about this and 138 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 4: we've actually diminished the importance of it, and as a result, 139 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 4: so many children are suffering from stress disorders and what 140 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 4: we call attachment disorders because they are separated so early, 141 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 4: so I can tell you that you don't internalize a 142 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 4: feeling of safety in the world world that is the 143 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 4: foundation for future mental health. You don't internalize it till 144 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 4: three years of age. 145 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: I know they talk about, you know, just after birth 146 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: as the whole. You know, that skin to skin, that 147 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: physical attachment. As your child gets older, how do you 148 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: maintain is that still that physical presence of holding and hugging. 149 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: So there's the physical side of it, then the emotional 150 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: side of it. How do you balance out both those 151 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: two sides. 152 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 4: So, you know, a lot of people believe and there's 153 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 4: a lot of research to prove that the first year 154 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 4: of a child's life is like another trimester. So we 155 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 4: say we have three trimesters, but is the fourth trimester? 156 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 4: If there is such a thing. There's only three trimesters. 157 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 4: And the reason for that is that because babies are 158 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 4: born so neurologically fragile, meaning babies should be born about 159 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 4: nine months later than they actually are, and they're more 160 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 4: like marsupials, they're more like kangaroos or wallabies. You know, 161 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,559 Speaker 4: I've spent some time in Australia. So although they're born 162 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 4: and we don't carry them in a sack. In reality, 163 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 4: we need to carry them on our bodies. So in 164 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 4: most parts of the world, babies are carried on their 165 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 4: mother's bodies and the skin diskin contact. So you know, 166 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 4: mothers perform this incredible, incredibly important act, which is they 167 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 4: soothe the baby when the baby's in distress from moment 168 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 4: to moment, therefore regulating the baby's emotions. And again, it 169 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 4: isn't till three that the baby is able to internalize 170 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 4: things like the permanence of their parents and their lives, 171 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 4: a feeling of safety and security, but also the ability 172 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 4: to regulate their emotions. So by holding a baby on 173 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 4: your body, you're not only regulating their heartbeat, their cortisol levels, 174 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 4: you're regulating their emotions. You're not supposed to raise the 175 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 4: cortisol levels in a baby's brain in the first year. 176 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 4: So the amygdala, this tiny little almond shaped part of 177 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:59,079 Speaker 4: the limbic system, the stress regulating system of the brain, 178 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 4: is meant to remain very quiet, call it offline. It's 179 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 4: meant to stay offline for the first year, which is 180 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:08,559 Speaker 4: why mothers wear babies on their bodies and why they 181 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 4: carry them around very close to them because it keeps 182 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 4: their stress levels down. You're buffering a child from stress 183 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 4: in the first year, and then slowly incrementally that part 184 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 4: of the brain comes online with incremental amounts of stress. 185 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 4: I mean, there's always stress. You know, there might be 186 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 4: a moment when the baby's not with the mother because 187 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:30,319 Speaker 4: the mother's run to the bathroom, or the mother is 188 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 4: out for a little while and comes back. So there's 189 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 4: always little moments of stress, right, And so what we 190 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 4: know is if we elevate cortisol and babies' brains too early, 191 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:44,119 Speaker 4: the part of the brain that is the stress regulating 192 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 4: part of the brain enlarges, it activates too early, and 193 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 4: there are consequences to that, which is, if it activates 194 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 4: too early, it literally it's sort of like a light 195 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 4: bulb in your kitchen. You know, if you turn on 196 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 4: the light bulb and you leave the switch on, it 197 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 4: burns out. Well, that part of the brain is supposed 198 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 4: to remain quiet for the first year. If you activated 199 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 4: too early, it sort of burns out, shriveles up, so 200 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 4: to speak, and then isn't functional to help regulate stress 201 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 4: in the future. But the hardest thing really is activating 202 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 4: the cortisol in the baby's brain too early, and you 203 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 4: really do not want to do that. 204 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: If that is something that has happened. Is this something 205 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 1: you can do as your child gets old to sort 206 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: of reverse thoze effis. 207 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, And a lot of it is that you do 208 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 4: what you didn't do the first time, which is when 209 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 4: they're in distress, you don't disregard it, you don't dismiss it, 210 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 4: you don't treat it lightly. You actually show sensitive empathic nurturing. 211 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 4: So if a baby is in distress or a toddler 212 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 4: is in distress, you respond to them. You don't not 213 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 4: respond to them, so, you know, and you kind of 214 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 4: try to repair. We use the word repair. You know, 215 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 4: if you rip a sail for a sailboat, you know 216 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 4: it now. It might not be perfect the repair, but 217 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 4: the sailboat can function again. And so the repair part 218 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 4: is very important, which is that you do a lot 219 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 4: of what you should have done originally, you do it now, right. 220 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 4: A lot of the sense of empathic nurturing, responding to 221 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 4: the baby's distress, reflecting the baby's emotions, not dismissing the 222 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:22,959 Speaker 4: baby's emotions. 223 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:26,079 Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess that that will come in many different 224 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: ways because if a child's a bit older and they 225 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: are upset and having a what we would call a meltdown, 226 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 1: that physical comfort they probably don't want. So I guess 227 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: you then just have to understand and manage where that 228 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: security and where that repair comes from, whether it's just 229 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 1: being present, whether it's dialogue or just being there. I 230 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:47,839 Speaker 1: guess you need to just kind of work that out 231 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:48,319 Speaker 1: as you go. 232 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:51,560 Speaker 4: So a tantrum is what I call an emotional blown 233 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 4: fuse in a baby's brain. So it's not within their control. 234 00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 4: It's not a discipline issue. It's an emotional regulation. And 235 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:05,319 Speaker 4: babies are born not capable of regulating their emotions. Babies 236 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 4: are not born resilient, and their emotions are very volatile. 237 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 4: I mean, all you have to do is look at 238 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 4: a baby and see that one minute they'll be like ah, 239 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:16,680 Speaker 4: and the next minute they'll be like oh, you know, 240 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 4: and it's zero to sixty and three seconds kind of thing. 241 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 4: And so that kind of like almost like sailing a 242 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 4: boat in the Pacific, you know, that up and down. 243 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 4: That's how they're born. And then we teach them to 244 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 4: feel safe and secure, and we model for them how 245 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 4: to regulate their emotions and by being present emotionally and 246 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 4: physically and responding to their distress and soothing them. We 247 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 4: help them to sail in the Caribbean. You know, we 248 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 4: don't want them to flatline emotionally. We want to help 249 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 4: them to be able to regulate things like fear, sadness, anger, 250 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 4: even excitement. But you have to respond to them and 251 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 4: you have to be there to do that. So you know, 252 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 4: this whole argument of you know, quality time versus quantity time, 253 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 4: I say, there is no such thing for a child 254 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 4: as quality time without quantity time. That's an adult concept. 255 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 4: You may be, okay, And I'm going to say, as 256 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 4: a therapist who also treats couples, quality time without quantity 257 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 4: time doesn't work in marital relationships either. It doesn't really 258 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 4: work in friendships either. So yeah, it's a ruse, you know, 259 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 4: the idea that you can just kind of be there 260 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 4: whenever you can be there and be there with great quality. 261 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 4: With a very young child, they need the constant presence 262 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 4: of someone who is able to regulate because their emotions 263 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 4: are throughout the day. I mean, they're not like a 264 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 4: vase that you put on the counter and you leave 265 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 4: them and you come back at the end of the 266 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 4: day and they're exactly in the same spot, doing exactly 267 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 4: the same thing throughout that day. They've had a whole 268 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 4: slew of ups and downs, and without you present to 269 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 4: help to regulate those emotions, they don't learn. I mean, 270 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 4: you know, one of the things is as parents is 271 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 4: that we don't tell parents that one of your main 272 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 4: responsibilities is to love and to nurture and to soothe 273 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 4: them and to protect them. But we don't tell parents 274 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 4: that one of the most important roles is to teach them. 275 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 4: We model for them. We teach them throughout the day, 276 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 4: from moment to moment. We're teaching them how to regulate 277 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 4: their emotions, how to manage frustration and stress. We're teaching 278 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 4: them our values, you know. And so if you're not there, 279 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 4: who's teaching them that? A daycare worker, No, they're not 280 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 4: teaching them that, and so they're not learning it. 281 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: Childcare and daycare that is an interesting thing because a 282 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: lot of parents have to both work, and so from 283 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: quite a young age children have to go to a 284 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: day care or you know, a childcare facility. How do 285 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: you manage that security when you're having to, as a 286 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: day take your child for somebody else to care for them. 287 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 4: There are many options that are far better than daycare. 288 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 4: And so if you can't be there as a primary 289 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 4: attachment figure, first we need to support mothers and fathers. 290 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 4: If fathers are the primary attachment figures, we need to 291 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 4: support the primary attachment figures to be as present as 292 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 4: possible in those first three years, and that means the 293 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 4: government has to support it, right, employers have to support it. 294 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 4: I mean, it's very important that if we are going 295 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 4: to say that we care about children and their mental health, 296 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 4: that we put our money where our mouth is. If 297 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 4: you are going to push towards something where you support 298 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 4: working parents, push towards family stipends. Give families money directly 299 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 4: so they can send the money on childcare as they 300 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 4: see fit. They might give it to grandma because grandma 301 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 4: can't afford her rent without working. Why not give grandma 302 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 4: so grandma now gets it. It's a twofer. Grandma gets 303 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 4: to watch her most beloved grandchild and she gets paid 304 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 4: so she can pay her rent. So that's the first thing. Secondly, 305 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 4: if you can't be there as the primary attachment figure 306 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 4: to care for your child yourself, the next best thing 307 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 4: is to have what we call kinship bonds, and that 308 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 4: means that a person that loves that child, a family 309 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 4: member or extended family member who has a more similar 310 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 4: emotional investment and a more permanent and long term investment 311 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 4: in that child and their emotional well being. And that 312 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 4: could be a father, it could be a grandmother or 313 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 4: a grandfather. It could be an aunt, it could be 314 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 4: a next door neighbor who you call aunt, who's going 315 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 4: to be in your life, your whole life. And so 316 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 4: that would be the next best thing if you don't 317 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 4: have someone, if you've moved far away, which in America, 318 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 4: kids grow up and they fly across the country and 319 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 4: they live in different countries and they you know, so 320 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 4: we've told children that it doesn't matter that you live 321 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 4: near your family when you have children. Everybody can be 322 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 4: so no independent. But the truth is that when we're 323 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 4: raising children, you'd never in history raise children without extended 324 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 4: family support. So if you have to work, the best 325 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,399 Speaker 4: thing is to have your extended family help you. The 326 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 4: next best thing is a single surrogate caregiver, one person 327 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 4: who is as if and as if grandmother, someone who 328 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 4: will nurture that child with sensitive empathic nurturing and will 329 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:30,160 Speaker 4: be exclusively with that child and someone who will come 330 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:34,640 Speaker 4: into your home, someone who you can regulate, someone who 331 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 4: you can teach, someone who you can control when they're 332 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 4: doing something you don't like, someone who you can observe. 333 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 4: You have control in that sense, but you also then 334 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 4: have control to hire somebody who's really loving and nurturing. 335 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,119 Speaker 4: The next best thing if you can't afford that is 336 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 4: to share a caregiver. They do that a lot in California. 337 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 4: You share a nanny. That is far better because it 338 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:00,679 Speaker 4: brings the ratio because there's a very high race of 339 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 4: children to caregiver and daycare in America. It's not usually 340 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 4: less than about seven to one. Have you ever, either 341 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 4: of you ever cared for seven children. 342 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 3: Under the no and I'm never going to put my 343 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 3: hand up. 344 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:24,239 Speaker 4: Do you think you could provide sensitive, empathic nurturing and 345 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 4: soothe every one of those children at the moment of 346 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:30,199 Speaker 4: their distress? Do you think you could do that in 347 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,159 Speaker 4: a satisfactory manner and be able to be present for 348 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 4: each of those seven babies as they need you? 349 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 3: No way? 350 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 4: Okay, then you answered the question yourself. 351 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,400 Speaker 1: You know, people would say that it's important for children 352 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 1: to be socializing and having interaction with other children. Is 353 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 1: there a benefit to that. 354 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 4: That's called marketing. Someone who designed daycare said, let's tell 355 00:18:55,440 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 4: people that it's and so then it caught on. Children 356 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 4: do not need socialization before the age of three. In 357 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 4: a group setting. They need the primary attachment figure to 358 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 4: be present as they practice and try to be independent 359 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 4: and play with other children. So mommy and me classes, 360 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 4: music classes where your mom is present and maybe even 361 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 4: a little in the background, but still present, so you 362 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:27,159 Speaker 4: can practice in what we call emotional refueling or you know, 363 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,719 Speaker 4: it's called a prochema, the ability to go back and 364 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 4: forth and practice as a toddler. But certainly you don't 365 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:38,639 Speaker 4: need a drop off early separation class where you're torn 366 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:40,680 Speaker 4: from your primary attachment figure. 367 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 3: No, well, I'm not just going watch. 368 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 4: I think that's in the truth. If you don't tell 369 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 4: people the truth, they can't make better decisions. And then 370 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 4: the repercussions of that, and the consequences of that are 371 00:19:55,800 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 4: that children are breaking down in crazy numbers. And the 372 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 4: foundation of resilience is security. So if we don't have 373 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,399 Speaker 4: attachment security in the beginning, there's nothing to build on. 374 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 4: It's like putting the nation into the house before you 375 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 4: build the walls and put the roof on, put the 376 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 4: windows and the doors. So the foundation of a child's 377 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 4: mental health for their lifetime is the first three years. 378 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 4: It is when the personality is starting to be formed, 379 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:33,440 Speaker 4: and so it's a very important time. And so when 380 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 4: parents say I can't afford it, or you know, I 381 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 4: love my job, or I'm like, three years is such 382 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 4: a short period of time in the scheme of the 383 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 4: whole life of your child and this scheme of your life. 384 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 4: So if you're not willing to either titrate down your 385 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 4: work or do with less materially, if you can for 386 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 4: such a short period of time, you know, you think 387 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 4: about the idea that having children innately means making sacrifices 388 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 4: and putting their needs first and not your own needs first. 389 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: Here people talk about separation anxiety. Well, I've got a 390 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:24,360 Speaker 1: little boy, Asher and he's I think he does suffer 391 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: from separation anxiety or he just wants to be around 392 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 1: us all the time, and so when he's not, he's 393 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: not happy about it. Whether that's separation anxiety or not, 394 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,640 Speaker 1: I'm not sure. But is that lack of security part 395 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: of that understanding of separation anxiety? 396 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 4: How old is he. 397 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 3: He's just turned five. 398 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 4: So the term separation anxiety refers to a very specific 399 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:48,119 Speaker 4: period of development from eight months to about eighteen months. 400 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 3: Okay, so until. 401 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:53,159 Speaker 4: About eight months, babies feel I don't want to use 402 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 4: the word merged, because we don't use that word anymore, 403 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 4: but they are kind of, in a delightful way, feeling 404 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,879 Speaker 4: as if they're parents. Their mothers are an extension of themselves. 405 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 4: You'd say, they're narcissistically bound to their mothers. So they 406 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,440 Speaker 4: don't believe that their mothers are separate. And so if 407 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 4: we handle it well, then we don't break the illusion. Right, 408 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,159 Speaker 4: So the baby has this wonderful illusion being worn on 409 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 4: the mother's body, being picked up when they cry, being fed, 410 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 4: when they're hungry. They have the illusion that they're making 411 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 4: it happen. They have the illusion that their mother is 412 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 4: their right hand, is an extension. What happens at about 413 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 4: eight months is they wake up from this dream and 414 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:37,439 Speaker 4: they realize that their mothers are separate people, that they're 415 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 4: separate people. And that's terrifying because then they realize that 416 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 4: their mothers could get up and leave and not come back. 417 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 4: And so this is the period that we play the 418 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 4: peekaboo game with children, because we're trying to create what 419 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 4: we call object permanence where they feel that their mothers 420 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 4: will go away but come back. So between eight and 421 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:01,479 Speaker 4: eighteen months, babies all get very and funny enough, this 422 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 4: is when a lot of mothers go back to work 423 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 4: because their maternity leave is up, and so they're going 424 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,159 Speaker 4: back to work, and probably the worst time because the 425 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 4: baby is like, please don't leave me. And so if 426 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 4: you handle that well again, if you're present during that 427 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 4: period for the most part, then that baby learns, oh, 428 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 4: I'm okay, my mother's not going anywhere. Even though she's 429 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 4: a separate person, she's going to be near me. At 430 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 4: eighteen months, if they feel secure enough, then they start 431 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 4: to practice exploring the world, but again coming back to 432 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 4: their mothers in those toddler years to touch base refuel. 433 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 4: So they might scramble off and play and experiment and 434 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,239 Speaker 4: explore and take risks, but then they look back at 435 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,679 Speaker 4: their mother or come over and get a hug and 436 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 4: then go back again. If the mother's not there, then 437 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 4: they don't have It's like touching base with your secure 438 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,119 Speaker 4: touchstone kind of thing. If that's all handled well, that 439 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 4: at about three years old and they go to preschool. 440 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 4: They've internalized that security that the mother gave them, so 441 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 4: they can summon her up in their mind, in their 442 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 4: hearts and not feel, you know, frightened when they're not 443 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 4: with her. If a five year old is still doing it, 444 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 4: one I would say is that it's a very sensitive child. 445 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 4: And you know, we know that sensitive children are wonderful children, 446 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 4: and there's a lot of sensitive children. And there was 447 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 4: research to show that if you treat a sensitive child 448 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 4: with sensitive empathic nurturing, it neutralizes over time their sensitivity. 449 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 4: But if you treat a sensitive child with insensitivity, you 450 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 4: dismiss their emotions, you show tough love. What it does 451 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,640 Speaker 4: is it exacerbates the sensitivity and it makes them more 452 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,439 Speaker 4: fearful and less capable of functioning and being resilient in 453 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 4: the future. 454 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,679 Speaker 3: Oh well, it's pretty fascinating. 455 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 4: A five year old who needs you respond to it. 456 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:06,160 Speaker 4: So you ask, how do you deal with children's needs? 457 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 4: You respond to them. How do you deal with children's fears? 458 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 4: You respond to them, You empathize with them, you reflect them. 459 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 4: You know, the word reflection is such a beautiful word. 460 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,719 Speaker 4: It's like looking in a mirror, right and you see yourself. 461 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,959 Speaker 4: When a child is sad, they need to look at 462 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 4: their mother a father's face and see that their fathers 463 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 4: or their mothers can reflect like a mirror, how they're feeling, 464 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 4: and then they feel stable, Then they feel acknowledged, then 465 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 4: they feel like people. Right. So, if your child is 466 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 4: feeling fearful and they come to you, acknowledge the fear, 467 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,719 Speaker 4: be sensitive and empathic with the fear, and over time 468 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 4: that gets internalized by that child and it can neutralize 469 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 4: them of that sensitivity. 470 00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I assume that that is necessary at any age. 471 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: That is relevant at any age of a child's love. 472 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 4: And if for some reason you miss the early windows 473 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,479 Speaker 4: of sensitivity because you listen to society which has become 474 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 4: very insensitive, I mean, we live in a very unempathic, 475 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 4: insensitive time. You'd say you can enter the scene at 476 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,199 Speaker 4: any moment. So if you hear this podcast and you 477 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 4: miss those early years, it's never too late to enter 478 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 4: and begin a new way of interacting with your child. 479 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 3: Yeah. 480 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 1: I think that is really the important thing to take 481 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,719 Speaker 1: away from that is that you can start now and 482 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: you can change. Yeah, the way you've been responding or 483 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 1: reacting to things with your child. I think that's really important. 484 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 1: I'm not going to talk about the Kardashians anymore, except 485 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: for just one more thing. Courtney mentioned mum guilt because 486 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 1: you spoke about being on the mobile phone while breastfeeding, 487 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,159 Speaker 1: and I guess that's in general terms, being on mobile 488 00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 1: phones around children. What's your response to, I guess, as parents, 489 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 1: I guess being distracted? Really, I mean, way, if we're 490 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 1: on f phones around children, how does a child say that? 491 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 4: When a child sees you on your phone, the thought 492 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:16,360 Speaker 4: process in that child is I'm not very interesting. Whatever 493 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 4: my mummy is doing is much more interesting than I am. 494 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 4: So presence means not being distracted and multitasking. And you know, 495 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 4: again another thing that's promoted in modern society, how wonderful 496 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 4: it is to multitask. How wonderful it is to be 497 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,879 Speaker 4: able to, you know, paint your kitchen while you're washing 498 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,199 Speaker 4: the dishes, while you're using your feet to scratch the dogs. 499 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 4: You know. No, I mean, multitasking is very bad for 500 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 4: your brain. Actually, it's been shown to be very bad 501 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:49,159 Speaker 4: for your brain. But it's also very very bad for 502 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 4: your relationships, whether you're talking about a baby or sitting 503 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 4: in a restaurant with your wife and texting. I've been 504 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,399 Speaker 4: to restaurants where there's two people and they're married and 505 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 4: they're sitting there, each on their phones texting. 506 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 3: Other people or each other. 507 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 4: Or each other. Concept is technology is very disruptive to 508 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 4: healthy relationships. But for babies, the message is I'm not 509 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 4: very interesting. I must not be very important if whatever 510 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 4: my mommy's doing is so much more important than me, 511 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 4: and they become very despairing. So if you watch, Courtney 512 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 4: was mentioning breastfeeding because a lot of mothers, who are 513 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 4: very loving mothers, think there's nothing wrong with breastfeeding their 514 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 4: baby while they're on their phone. So again multitask. They think, oh, 515 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 4: I'm making the attachment connection with my baby because I'm 516 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:55,239 Speaker 4: giving them my breast, but my mind is elsewhere. And 517 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 4: the point is it would be, like I'm trying to think, 518 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 4: it would be like having sex with your part partner 519 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 4: while thinking about your business meeting the next day. 520 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 3: I've never done that, by the way, but I'm just. 521 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 4: Saying human beings can be physically present and be emotionally 522 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 4: checked out, but they can't be emotionally present and not 523 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 4: physically present. But the concept that you sort of have 524 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 4: your breast in the baby's mouth, but you are checked out. 525 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 4: That's sort of what Courtney was saying, is that nobody 526 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 4: ever told her that before, because I don't think we 527 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 4: do tell mothers about this. That to be really present 528 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 4: means to give the person you're with, whether it's your 529 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 4: baby or your friends, is to give them your your 530 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 4: mind is to give them. The presence is your mind 531 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 4: as well as your body. You have to be there 532 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 4: with your body on your mind. 533 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, to be present is really and we have heard 534 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 1: that quite a bit on the podcast. Just to be 535 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: present in the moment with your child and we just 536 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 1: in life ultimately, I mean you need to practice it 537 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,479 Speaker 1: in the loft. Be out of practice, you know, with 538 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: your child anyway, do you. 539 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 4: Let's say this, you can't be present every single moment 540 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 4: with your child or with anyone you know. And the 541 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 4: statistics are that fifty percent of interactions between a mother 542 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 4: and a baby, between a primary attachment figure and a 543 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 4: baby are mis sort of fits misdirection, so miscommunication. So 544 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 4: in other words, you might look away while your baby 545 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 4: looks to you. You might have to run to the 546 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 4: bathroom and your baby needs you. You know, there are 547 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 4: even momentary sort of momentary things. You know, somebody calls 548 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 4: your name on the street and you look away and 549 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 4: the baby is looking at you, So we call those miscommunications. 550 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 4: So fifty percent of the time. So the idea is 551 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 4: that but then the baby, You look back at the 552 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 4: baby and you see that the baby looks forlorn because 553 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 4: you weren't looking at the baby when the baby was 554 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 4: looking at you. And then you repair it and go, oh, honey, 555 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 4: I'm sorry, mommy looked away for a second. So you know, 556 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 4: you'd say idea of rupture. There's a very famous analyst 557 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 4: that talks about rupture and repair rupture, and you're doing 558 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,239 Speaker 4: that all day long with the baby, so you're not 559 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 4: it's not like your present every single I mean, mothers 560 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 4: have to make soup, they have to cook, they have 561 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 4: to take care of the house, they have other children. 562 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 4: So it's not that you are like this all the 563 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 4: time with the baby. It would be erotic and it 564 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:26,719 Speaker 4: would make your baby crazy exhaustly. But the idea is 565 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 4: that you know that you are there enough that you're 566 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 4: in and out of the baby's sort of presence. So 567 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 4: the baby and you might not always connect right at 568 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 4: the same moment, but that you are there, particularly when 569 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 4: they're in distress. And that's what we miss, is that 570 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 4: when you leave a baby all day long, you're missing 571 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 4: those moments of distress throughout the day. 572 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: In turn, if you do have to go on your phone, 573 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 1: is it okay to communicate that to your child, to say, 574 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 1: I'm saying, eshure, I actually just there's a work email 575 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 1: I have to do and I have to do it 576 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 1: right now. Is it good to be able to communicate 577 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: that for them to be aware of why you are 578 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 1: doing something. 579 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 4: I think it's better if there's another adult in the 580 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 4: room that you can say, daddy's got to go to 581 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 4: take a call, I'll be right back, and you're going 582 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 4: to be with mommy, and then we're going to finish 583 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 4: playing together. I think the best is to probably have 584 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 4: good boundaries with your phone and your computer at home, 585 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 4: so during the times that you're with your child. You know, 586 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 4: I mean, some people in an extreme way put their 587 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 4: phones and computers in a basket at the door, and 588 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 4: that way they're not tempted. You know, they discipline themselves. 589 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 4: They say I'm not touching that computer that phone until 590 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 4: my child goes to sleep. And you tell people. You 591 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 4: can even have your little heading on your emails. You know. 592 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 4: I don't speak between you know, five and seven, but 593 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 4: I think that if you have to take a call 594 00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 4: every once in a while, you want to be very 595 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 4: discerning that you don't do it too much, and if 596 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 4: you do need to do it, don't do it in 597 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 4: front of your child. See, I've got to go out 598 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 4: of the room for a moment. I'm going to take 599 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 4: a call and then I'm going to come back. First 600 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 4: of all, think about it. In the old days, if 601 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 4: your mother picked up the phone in the kitchen and 602 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 4: was talking to your aunt and you were like looking 603 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 4: for their attention, it was rude. It was terrible. I mean, 604 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 4: we would say that's rude behavior, right, and so we 605 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 4: have no problem doing that now. 606 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 3: That's very interesting. You know. 607 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,720 Speaker 1: I was on holidays recently and I was out to 608 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 1: dinner and lunches and everything, and it was all, you know, 609 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,479 Speaker 1: very much a family place where you were. But there 610 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 1: were no children at any stage on devices at restaurants 611 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: out and about which I actually took note of because 612 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 1: in the past of it. So there must be a 613 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 1: real shift. I think about that sort of screens on 614 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 1: tables and things because there was none. There was none 615 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 1: at all, and whether that's just because everyone was in 616 00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: holiday mode or whatever, maybe parents have become more aware 617 00:33:59,640 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: of that. 618 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 4: Were you in Australia on holiday or Yeah, you've led 619 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 4: the way. So I can only hope that the world 620 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 4: follows what Australia has done. So Australia has raised awareness 621 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 4: in the world and they've put their money where their 622 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,799 Speaker 4: mouth is. They've said we're going to take children off 623 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 4: of social media. So there's a real awareness in Australia 624 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 4: about the consequences of technology with children, and so you're 625 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:30,879 Speaker 4: sort of leaders in a way, and I can only 626 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 4: hope that the rest of the world follows. And so 627 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 4: it isn't just social media, it's technology overall. I mean, 628 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:41,239 Speaker 4: the American Pediatric Association said that no child should be 629 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:45,760 Speaker 4: on any device under the age of two. No device, 630 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:50,320 Speaker 4: no handing me an iPhone, And even one would say 631 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 4: that watching things like The Wiggles or Mister Rogers neighborhood, 632 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 4: do it with your child. I mean I used to 633 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 4: sit down and watch The Wiggles with my kids. And 634 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,759 Speaker 4: I know all the songs too because I watched it 635 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 4: so many times, so I can sing those songs. So 636 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 4: the concept is, if you're gonna let your kids watch TV, 637 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 4: do it with with them. You talk to them and 638 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,800 Speaker 4: cuddle with them and laugh with them and sing with them. 639 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 4: But don't just PLoP them in front of media of 640 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:27,359 Speaker 4: any kind, particularly computers and phones, because what it does 641 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 4: is it also stimulates kind of dopamine in the brain 642 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 4: of a child who is again is not meant to 643 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,360 Speaker 4: have that part of their brain stimulated in such a 644 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 4: way and can lead to bad things later on. 645 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for being so wonderfully thought provoking. And yeah, 646 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:45,880 Speaker 2: this has been such a wonderful chat. 647 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 1: Very interesting. Thank you, Erica, thank you for coming on 648 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 1: Wiggle Talk. And once again i'll just thank the Kardashians. 649 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 4: What you said. 650 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,560 Speaker 3: Hello, thank you so much. 651 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 4: Thanks Erica, thank you, thank you. 652 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 3: Well. That was very thought provoking, Lockie, it was. 653 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:13,360 Speaker 1: There's two sides to so many of these conversations, and 654 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: I think that's why it's just so important to put 655 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 1: it all out on the table. Have a listen, you 656 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,760 Speaker 1: take what works, You can try things, you cannot try things, 657 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 1: because the aim is to benefit our children and as 658 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:29,360 Speaker 1: parents and you know, just life in general, just to 659 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 1: help navigate through it. As best as we possibly can, 660 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 1: and so we take little tips here and there to 661 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:38,720 Speaker 1: make it work. That's it for today. Thanks for listening. 662 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 1: If this conversation got your thinking, have a look at 663 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,840 Speaker 1: Erica's work and her books will pop links in the 664 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,239 Speaker 1: show notes so you can explore in your own time. 665 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:49,839 Speaker 2: If you're enjoying wiggle Talk, please rate and review it. 666 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 2: It really helps other parents find us too. 667 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to wiggle Talk, a podcast of parents 668 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 1: Tootle Pops