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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 1: bunjelung Caalcutin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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Speaker 1: Straight Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

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Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily os. It's Monday,

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Speaker 2: the twenty seventh of March.

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Speaker 3: I'm Zara, I'm Sam.

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Speaker 2: We have something really really special for you today. It's

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Speaker 2: an interview with Pam Melroy, who is the Deputy Administrator

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Speaker 2: of NASA. Pretty cool position. Pam was just the second

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Speaker 2: woman to command a Space Shuttle mission and has logged

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Speaker 2: more than thirty eight days in space.

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Speaker 4: It's a little bit like waking up and finding yourself magic.

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Speaker 4: You can fly, you can lift huge objects with just

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Speaker 4: a finger. It is almost like being in a new

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Speaker 4: magic country.

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Speaker 2: Pam's been in Australia visiting the Australian Space Agency as

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Speaker 2: well as Parliament House, where she caught up with TDA

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Speaker 2: journalist Tom Crowley. We're going to bring you that chat

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Speaker 2: in a deep dive. But first Sam, it was a

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Speaker 2: massive weekend for our home state of New South Wales.

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Speaker 3: That's right, Sarah. We have a new government here in

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Speaker 3: New South Wales, with the Labour Party winning the election

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Speaker 3: on Saturday night. The coalition lost at least nine seats

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Speaker 3: to the new government. Chris Mins is the new Premier

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Speaker 3: of the state and he will lead a majority Labor

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Speaker 3: government with at least fourteen seats in the state too

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Speaker 3: close to call. Meanwhile, former Premier Dominic Perrete has stood

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Speaker 3: down as leader of the New South Wales Liberal Party,

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Speaker 3: with front runner Matt Keane ruling himself out of the position.

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Speaker 2: New South Wales and Victorian police have arrested twenty seven

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Speaker 2: people following an operation that was targeting outlaw biking gangs

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Speaker 2: and organized crow Police sees multiple firearms during last week's operation,

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Speaker 2: which sought to gather intelligence and disrupt biking gangs in

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Speaker 2: the River Arena and aubrey we Doonga regions.

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Speaker 3: South Australia has become the first Australian state or territory

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Speaker 3: to enshrine an Indigenous voice to Parliament in their legislation.

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Speaker 3: Thousands gathered in Central Adelaide to watch Premier Peter Malanowskis

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Speaker 3: sign the bill which will appoint a voice body consisting

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Speaker 3: of forty six elected members across the state representing six regions.

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Speaker 2: And the good news. Two women who saved two young

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Speaker 2: girls from a rip at an Australian beach have been

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Speaker 2: awarded the Governor General's Bravery Medal for their acts. Billana

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Speaker 2: Broadly and Elise Partridge used an eski lid to help

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Speaker 2: the two girls float before taking them back to shore.

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Speaker 2: They sprang into action after hearing a woman screaming out

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Speaker 2: to the girls, with emergency services taking control shortly after

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Speaker 2: they were brought back to the beach.

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Speaker 5: Pam Melroy, thank you very Mantris spaking to the Daily Ods.

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Speaker 4: Thank you Tom. I'm very excited to be back in Australia.

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Speaker 5: It's great to have you here now. NASA and others

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Speaker 5: often talk about that we might be entering a golden

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Speaker 5: era of space exploration. Now we landed on the Moon

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Speaker 5: decades ago. What makes now potentially the golden era.

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Speaker 4: That's a wonderful question. Some people are calling it the

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Speaker 4: second Wave, but I think if you look back at

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Speaker 4: the Golden Age of aviation, which was in the forties

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Speaker 4: and fifties. What you saw were substantial government investments in

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Speaker 4: flying higher, further, faster, more efficiently, and aviation records were

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Speaker 4: broken and capabilities were being developed. But more importantly, they

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Speaker 4: were being spun off rapidly to commercial and the commercial

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Speaker 4: aviation industry that we know it today is based off

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Speaker 4: those investments, and the formation of the commercial aviation industry

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Speaker 4: really occurred in the fifties and sixties as a direct

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Speaker 4: result of those investments. That's the different diference is the

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Speaker 4: things that we are doing are not just pushing the

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Speaker 4: boundaries of space, but they're also being rapidly absorbed by

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Speaker 4: our commercial industry, which is going to have an impact

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Speaker 4: on all Australians and the whole world and every possible

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Speaker 4: industry the way the aviation industry has.

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Speaker 5: When it comes to I suppose human inquiry and developing

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Speaker 5: human understanding in space, what are we still learning and

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Speaker 5: hoping to learn when we go to space.

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Speaker 4: We have so many astounding things that we've learned. Just

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Speaker 4: look at the James Webb Space Telescope looking back in

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Speaker 4: time to the formation of the universe. We know that

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Speaker 4: we're just barely scratching the surface of understanding the formation

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Speaker 4: of the universe and the foundational physics of our universe,

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Speaker 4: which still mystify us. But when you add in the

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Speaker 4: fact that in microgravity we can also study the human

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Speaker 4: body in a way that you cannot do here on Earth.

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Speaker 4: We can look at things like combustion and fluid mechanics,

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Speaker 4: and those give us foundational insights that impact technologies of

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Speaker 4: the future. But the one thing that excites me is

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Speaker 4: the potential search for life, especially on Mars. We know

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Speaker 4: that Mars was once a warm planet with an atmosphere

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Speaker 4: and flowing water and possibly with life. Why is it

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Speaker 4: now dry, cold and barren? What can we learn that

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Speaker 4: we can apply here on Earth?

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Speaker 5: Fascinating And Australia's role in this is obviously growing. A

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Speaker 5: few years ago we launched a space Agency. I believe

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Speaker 5: you're in the country as part of that launch, and

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Speaker 5: you're here now to launch, among other things, a program

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Speaker 5: where first nation scientists will have the opportunity to work

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Speaker 5: at NASA. Why is Australia's participation in this important.

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Speaker 4: Well, Australia is a wonderful partner for us. We can

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Speaker 4: see that in so many ways. The strength of the

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Speaker 4: relationship between the United States and Australia is only growing

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Speaker 4: and deepening, and we think that the civil space partnership

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Speaker 4: is a critical part of that. It benefits both countries

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Speaker 4: by raising the capabilities that we can do together in partnership.

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Speaker 4: I was excited about the formation of the Space Agency

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Speaker 4: because for NASA, until there was a Space Agency, there

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Speaker 4: was no front door for partnerships with other countries, and

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Speaker 4: so the formation of the Space Agency was a critical

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Speaker 4: moment for Australia. And they're off to the races. They're

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Speaker 4: doing an amazing job. I think the goal was to

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Speaker 4: create twenty thousand new jobs by twenty thirty. They're already

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Speaker 4: at seventeen thousand, so they're clearly going to blow past that.

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Speaker 4: We are here because there's a range of areas that

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Speaker 4: we think we can cooperate successfully on. So we're excited

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Speaker 4: about the announcement of the Lunar Rover program through the

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Speaker 4: Trailblazer program, which will contribute and support to human science

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Speaker 4: exploration on the surface of the Moon using the unique

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Speaker 4: remote asset management and robotics technology. In Australia, we loved

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Speaker 4: the announcement about the Indigenous Space Academy, where five brilliant

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Speaker 4: Indigenous students will go to NASA's Jet Propulsion Lab. That's

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Speaker 4: really important for a couple of different reasons. Not only

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Speaker 4: will they contribute to the science that we do together

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Speaker 4: by working at JPL, they will also be able to

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Speaker 4: bring those skill sets back to them to Australia, raise

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Speaker 4: the technical capabilities of Australia. And then there'll be an

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Speaker 4: inspiration to other Indigenous students and in fact all Australian

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Speaker 4: students to participate in STEM. Those things are all really

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Speaker 4: important to all of our countries.

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Speaker 5: There's cooperation in space. I suppose there's also competition in space.

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Speaker 5: And when you go back a few decades, the space

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Speaker 5: rise between the United States and the Soviet Union consumed

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Speaker 5: a lot of attention. These days, China is rapidly increasing

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Speaker 5: its activity in space. Is it reasonable to view space

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Speaker 5: in strategic terms and how should we think about that

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Speaker 5: at the moment.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's very important. Actually, space is increasingly crowded and competitive.

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Speaker 4: There's no question about that. This is a high growth

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Speaker 4: economic sector, and I think that we're looking at economic

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Speaker 4: competitiveness in a very important way. It is a very

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Speaker 4: different situation than Apollo for a lot of different reasons.

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Speaker 4: First of all, this is an international partnership, and in fact,

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Speaker 4: in a week's time or so, we're going to be

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Speaker 4: announcing the first Artemis crew who will go around the

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Speaker 4: Moon on a test flight of the Orion spacecraft, first

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Speaker 4: crewed spaceflight, first crewed test of human beings going out

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Speaker 4: back to the Moon. And we'll have three Americans in

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Speaker 4: a Canadian And that is the face of the future

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Speaker 4: as we go out for a sustained presence of humans

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Speaker 4: not just on the Moon, on to Mars, but actually

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Speaker 4: throughout the Solar System. We really have to look to

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Speaker 4: our friends and our like minded partners who share our

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Speaker 4: values around scientific cooperation, around transparency, and frankly around democracy,

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Speaker 4: and we look to those partners to ensure that as

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Speaker 4: we go out, we're bringing the best of humanity into space.

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Speaker 5: Two more topics that I want to come to quickly,

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Speaker 5: if I may, One is climate change. I suspect that

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Speaker 5: there will be some people in the audience who would

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Speaker 5: ask a question along the lines of, well, why should

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Speaker 5: we be spending so much time focused on space when

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Speaker 5: we have in climate change and existential threat here on Earth.

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Speaker 4: Well, we do see climate as an existential threat, but

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Speaker 4: what a lot of people don't realize is that eighty

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Speaker 4: percent of the data to help us understand what's happening

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Speaker 4: to the Earth comes from space. And there's an important

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Speaker 4: reason for that. We simply cannot instrument the Earth terrestrially

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Speaker 4: enough to understand the Earth as a full system. We

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Speaker 4: have to look from space. It's where we get that

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Speaker 4: broader perspective, and NASA, with its partners, contributes enormously. Most

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Speaker 4: people know us as a space agency, we're also an

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Speaker 4: aeronautics agency, and in fact we're investing in decarbonizing aviation,

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Speaker 4: one of the hardest industries to decarbonize. But we're also

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Speaker 4: a climate agency. So the cooperation that we have. We

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Speaker 4: signed a statement of intent with the Australian Space Agency

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Speaker 4: around a special calibration satellite that Australia tends to develop

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Speaker 4: that will help ensure all climate data that comes from

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Speaker 4: space is more precise through this calibration function. That is

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Speaker 4: a fantastic idea and an investment in the future, and

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Speaker 4: it's going to help us understand much better. So I

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Speaker 4: think it's not an either or situation. In fact, space

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Speaker 4: is a critical part of addressing climate change.

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Speaker 5: And finally, we've gotten through a lot of serious policy issues,

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Speaker 5: but I have to ask you to finish. You spend

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Speaker 5: a lot of time in space, and I'm sure you've

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Speaker 5: been asked this question a million times, but what does

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Speaker 5: it feel like to be in space? And and how

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Speaker 5: has been in space changed the way that you feel

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Speaker 5: about the world that we live in.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, it's a remarkable experience. It's a little bit like

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Speaker 4: waking up and finding yourself magic. You can fly, you

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Speaker 4: can lift huge objects with just a finger, you can float,

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Speaker 4: and it's very surreal. I think it is almost like

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Speaker 4: being in a new magic country. But I think most

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Speaker 4: importantly of all, all astronauts feel this. Everyone who's been

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Speaker 4: to space has experienced what we call the overview effect.

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Speaker 4: You look out the window at our gorgeous Earth. Our

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Speaker 4: eyes see in ways that you can't capture in a photograph,

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Speaker 4: the brilliant colors, but also the dynamics of the Earth.

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Speaker 4: And what you really see, more than anything, is that

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Speaker 4: all parts of Earth are a single system. So you

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Speaker 4: don't see racial divisions, religious divisions, or political divisions. What

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Speaker 4: you see as a single spaceship Earth, and we are

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Speaker 4: all crew members as citizens of Earth, and that perspective

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Speaker 4: I think carries forward. You cannot be unchanged by that.

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Speaker 4: You become an environmentalist if you were not one before,

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Speaker 4: And I think all astronauts feel very strongly that cooperation

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Speaker 4: to protect and steward the Earth is critically important with

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Speaker 4: all countries of Earth.

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Speaker 5: Is it really difficult then, when, so to speak, you

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Speaker 5: come back down to Earth and say, maybe so many

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Speaker 5: people don't have that perspective. Is it difficult on a

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Speaker 5: personal level having kind of gained that overview perspective too?

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Speaker 4: Well, I'll tell you. I'm the deputy administrator of NASA.

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Speaker 4: Our administrator, Bill Nelson, was an elected official for over

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Speaker 4: four decades in the United States, and he often talks

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Speaker 4: about how it has impacted his public service, and I

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Speaker 4: think you can see that in his record that he

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Speaker 4: has promoted those kinds of decisions. So we often joke

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Speaker 4: that if we could send every politician on Earth to space,

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Speaker 4: we might see a very different outcome. But I have

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Speaker 4: to add the exciting surge I mentioned earlier about the

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Speaker 4: commercial space community and how fast that's growing. Maybe that's

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Speaker 4: a real opportunity for all human beings in the not

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Speaker 4: too distant future, and for anybody who's been an explorer,

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Speaker 4: the idea of having other people see the wonders that

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Speaker 4: you've seen. I'm excited about that, and I hope everyone

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Speaker 4: listening has the opportunity to see the Earth from space.

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Speaker 5: Pam Melroy, thank you so much for your time.

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Speaker 6: Thank you, thank you for joining us on the Daily

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Speaker 6: OS this morning. If you learned something from today's episode,

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Speaker 6: don't forget to hit subscribe so there's a TDA episode

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Speaker 6: waiting for you every morning.

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Speaker 3: We'll be back again tomorrow.

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Speaker 6: Until then, have a great day.