1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: Well, it's been thirty years since the Northern Territory first 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 1: legalized voluntary assisted dying in the Northern Territory, but now 3 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:11,399 Speaker 1: with the last place in Australia without voluntary assisted dying 4 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: laws as we know every other state and the Act 5 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: of introduced legislation allowing terminally ill people to choose how 6 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: they die, but in the Northern Territory it is still 7 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: not an option. Go gentle. Australia's Andrew Denton is in 8 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: the top end this week, co hosting community forums with Kota, 9 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,919 Speaker 1: calling on the Northern Territory government to stop stalling and 10 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:39,239 Speaker 1: bring forward VAD laws. I caught up with him a 11 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: little earlier this morning. Andrew, good morning, Welcome to the 12 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: Northern Territory. 13 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Katie. It's great to be here. 14 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: Now I understand that the first forum was held overnight. 15 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: How did it go? 16 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 2: It was really good be turn up with people and 17 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 2: be credit to CODA for organizing it. And the mood 18 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 2: of the room was unhappy. Unhappy that this has taken 19 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 2: so long to change the situation and there's still no 20 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 2: legislation before the Parliament. But also in comprehension, I mean, 21 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 2: how could this be the territory had these rights stripped 22 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 2: away by the federal government more than twenty years ago. 23 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 2: Three years ago, they were given the right back to 24 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 2: determine for themselves about this law, and still nothing's happened. 25 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 2: And so I think people were rightly angry. I mean, 26 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 2: why should Territorians be second class citizens in their own country. 27 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,559 Speaker 1: What were some of the voices, the stories the people 28 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: that you heard from last night. What did they have 29 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 1: to say? 30 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 2: Well, a lot of it was questions, but some of 31 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 2: them were the kind of stories which in other states 32 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 2: have led to legislative change. In other words, they're the 33 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 2: stories of the damage that's done when you don't have 34 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 2: an assistant dying law. There was one young woman, Kelly Baylor. 35 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 2: She was there with most of her family, her brothers, 36 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 2: and speaking on behalf of them because her dad, John 37 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 2: had died really horrendously of motor neur own disease, a 38 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 2: really terrible disease, and she talked about what his last 39 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 2: weeks and months were like and how powerless they felt, 40 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 2: and how awful was not then, not just then, but 41 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 2: now knowing that they couldn't help this man who is 42 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 2: this big, strong, fit, healthy man, and they saw him 43 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 2: deteriorate to almost nothing, and that spoke very much to 44 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 2: the reason why you have an assisted dying law so 45 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 2: that people have a choice, so they don't have to 46 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 2: be taken through to the brutal end of a brutal disease. 47 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: And I think you hit the nail on the head there. 48 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: And it's something that we've spoken about on this show before, 49 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: is it's the choice right. And you know, for any 50 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: of us who've watched somebody that we love dying, you 51 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: know them having that choice whether they choose, you know, 52 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 1: to choose that time and you know how they go 53 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 1: themselves or you know, whether they din't. But fundamentally it 54 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: comes down to their choice. 55 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 2: And choice is so powerful. We know because these laws 56 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 2: have been in existence around Australia, like in Victorian now 57 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 2: for six years, we have a pretty good sense of 58 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 2: the kind of people that do make this choice. And 59 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:21,640 Speaker 2: many of them are also in palliative care. It's not 60 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 2: like they're choosing between one or the other. And they 61 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 2: like to keep their options open and some people have 62 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 2: a right to VAD but in the end they choose 63 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 2: palliative care. It's about in our lives, we have a 64 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 2: right to make medical decisions about what we do and 65 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 2: don't do. You know, will I have that hip replacement 66 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 2: or whatever it is. We have that right, and that's 67 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 2: what this is about. That right shouldn't be taken away 68 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 2: from you at the one point we're all going to 69 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 2: get to, which is dying. And so choice is so powerful. 70 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 2: It means people can get on with living even while 71 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 2: they might be dying, without being consumed with anxiety about 72 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 2: what the end is going to be like. 73 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: And Andrew, you know, I know that for some people 74 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 1: it may come down to their religious views. They may 75 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: have deeply personal views as to why they don't agree 76 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:16,279 Speaker 1: with voluntary assisted dying. But I think, you know, like 77 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 1: it surely should come down to that personal choice and 78 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 1: giving people options. And you know, I know when I 79 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 1: watch my dad die, he may not have chosen voluntary 80 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: assisted dying. In fact, he probably wouldn't have. However, that 81 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 1: would have come down to what he wanted to do 82 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 1: and what he decided to do, particularly as you're suffering. 83 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 2: That's right. I have real respect for people's individual faith, 84 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 2: you know, to use that old John Lennon min whatever 85 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 2: gets you through the night, if it's God, if it's 86 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 2: your belief, in the church. If it's your faith that 87 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:56,599 Speaker 2: takes you through to the other side, then you know, 88 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 2: I totally support that. The issue here is not that 89 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:03,359 Speaker 2: because you can conscientiously object, you don't have to have 90 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 2: anything to do with it. The issue here is an 91 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 2: attempt by politicized faith groups to impose those values on 92 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 2: everyone else. And interestingly, over the course of these laws 93 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 2: as they've unrolled around Australia, it's not a universal view. 94 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 2: I've seen people of faith and people at work within 95 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 2: faith based institutions come to understand and deeply support us 96 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 2: as to dying as a choice because they understand that 97 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 2: as a compassionate and dare I say Christian thing to 98 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 2: do to treat somebody else with mercy, which is you know, 99 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 2: that's what I was always taught about Jesus at school, 100 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 2: that mercy was one of his big things and this 101 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 2: is a merciful thing to do. 102 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: Andrew in terms of you know, watching this legislation roll 103 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,359 Speaker 1: out in other states and other locations, and I know 104 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:55,720 Speaker 1: that you know you've been involved with go gentle well, 105 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: you know for a long long time. As you've seen 106 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 1: the legislation roll out in other locations, what you know, 107 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 1: what has it been like, what are some of the 108 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: lessons that have been learned? What are some of maybe 109 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: you know, the surprises that from those that have potentially 110 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: been opposed to voluntary assisted dying. 111 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 2: Well, look, i'll give you the snapshot. There's been about 112 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 2: like this. The first law was in Vitoria six years ago. 113 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:25,479 Speaker 2: Since then, about eight thousand the Australians have applied around Australia, 114 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:30,479 Speaker 2: less than half have actually used the medication. Interestingly, a 115 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:32,839 Speaker 2: lot of people have the medication, but they don't end 116 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,479 Speaker 2: up using it, partly because that's that's all they need, 117 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 2: that level of control. They're happy to see their life 118 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 2: through to its end naturally, partly because many come to 119 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 2: it too late and they die. The average age of 120 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 2: these people is about seventy four. It's pretty much fifty 121 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 2: to fifty men and women. The vast majority have cancer. 122 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 2: No great surprises with any of that. The really interesting 123 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 2: thing is is that eighty percent of those people are 124 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:04,719 Speaker 2: also in palliative care. And all those things that the 125 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 2: people that argue that against these laws were going to happen, 126 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 2: the opposite has proven to be true. It hasn't damaged 127 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 2: palliative care. In fact, it's increased the number of people 128 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 2: using palliative care because more people learn about it. It 129 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 2: hasn't affected the relationship between doctors and patients as people 130 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 2: said it would. In fact, the opposite is true. We 131 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 2: have so many testimonies from families deeply grateful to the 132 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 2: health professionals that help them, But we also have a 133 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,679 Speaker 2: testimony of some doctors saying, this is the most profound 134 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 2: thing I've done in my career, and it's changed the 135 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 2: way I think about how I treat my patience. There 136 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 2: hasn't been any evidence of the thing that was always 137 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 2: raised that the reason you can't have these laws, which 138 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 2: is coercion elderly people being encouraged to end their lives 139 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 2: for whatever reason. In fact, all the evidence is the 140 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 2: other way. It's cursion, not to which comes often from families, 141 00:07:56,560 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 2: but also, i'm sorry to say, from institutions and health 142 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 2: professionals that don't agree with this law, who use sometimes 143 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 2: very under the counter and sometimes very overt ways of 144 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 2: discouraging or blocking people from making their own choice. 145 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: Wow, and I mean fundamentally, it's your choice, or it 146 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: should be your choice. Andrew, you've been advocating for voluntary 147 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: assisted dying for a long time now. Why is this 148 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: something that's deeply personal for you? 149 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 2: Well, it started with watching my own father die and 150 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:34,839 Speaker 2: I've never forgotten those last three days. But it really 151 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 2: got supercharged once I took about a year going around 152 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 2: Australia and also internationally to explore this issue. And what 153 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:46,679 Speaker 2: I began to realize, and I've heard far, far too 154 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 2: many accounts, is that there are too many Australians that 155 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 2: die badly, and they die badly in ways that are 156 00:08:54,400 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 2: not necessary. It's because of ideology, it's because of systems 157 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 2: that are inflexible, it's because they don't have a choice. 158 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 2: And it wasn't just the way people were dying, but 159 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 2: worse than that, it was the way terminally all people 160 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 2: around this country on a weekly basis were taking their 161 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 2: own lives because they they had no control over what 162 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:19,719 Speaker 2: was going to happen. So I was and remained very 163 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 2: fired up about what I saw as a deep injustice. 164 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 2: And that's why I'm determined to see not only these 165 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 2: laws exist around Australia, but that they'd be operating in 166 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 2: a way that it's truly equitable and truly fair. 167 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: And I know that you have said that this change 168 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: really won't come about from politicians alone. It has to 169 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: come from people. What do you think that territorians can 170 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: do if they want to help push for these laws? 171 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:51,439 Speaker 2: Well, I can assure everyone listening that, I mean, there's 172 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 2: been no greater social revolution in modern Australian political times 173 00:09:56,240 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 2: than VAD because I've seen state by state people who've 174 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 2: been through this, or who know someone that's been through this, 175 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 2: stand up and these amongst the things you can do 176 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:10,559 Speaker 2: which are really effective. Write to your MP and emails fine, 177 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 2: let us even better, or go to their office. Believe me, 178 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 2: MPs they pay close attention when people start writing to them. 179 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 2: But if you're going to see your doctor or know 180 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 2: your local doctor, ask them what they think. Ask them 181 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 2: if they agree with this, then they should contact their 182 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 2: local MP. Turn up when the bill is going to 183 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 2: be heard in parliament. Turn up a parliament be there 184 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:38,839 Speaker 2: in numbers. This is what's happened in every other Stag 185 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 2: and the people stepping forward in those numbers. You know, 186 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 2: I sat through all night debates in different parliaments, and 187 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,959 Speaker 2: sitting alongside me were terminally ill people and they were 188 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 2: sitting there and they weren't even going to benefit from 189 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 2: the law. Because it was going to take too long. 190 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 2: But they were sitting there daring parliamentarians to look them 191 00:10:57,400 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 2: in the eye and say, no, I'm not going to 192 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 2: pass the law that could help you. 193 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 1: How brave, how brave of them and incredible. Yeah, And 194 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 1: I you know, I think for some people, you really 195 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: don't realize until you've watched somebody love die and be 196 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: in pain and suffer how important it is for them 197 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 1: to have that choice. And I think it's important for 198 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: us all to think about it before we get to 199 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: that point as well. 200 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, absolutely, And it's not just about assist dying, 201 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 2: it's about palliative care, it's about advanced care direct. Yes, 202 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 2: it's none of us like the subject of dying, but 203 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 2: unfortunately it's the one inevitable thing, and so yes, it 204 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 2: makes sense. I'd also just make the point too. Yep, 205 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 2: there's possibly government MPs listening, and you're Chief Minister and 206 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 2: miss Finocchio, this should be a win win for the government. 207 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 2: It's they if they do this right, they can and 208 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 2: you'll be stepping forward and not just saying we're going 209 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 2: to pass an assisted dying all, but we're going to 210 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 2: do end of life care better for everyone than the 211 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 2: Northern Territory, we're going to give more money to pallettes Care, 212 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 2: We're going to bring an assisted dying. We're going to 213 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 2: make end of life a better experience for every territory 214 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,079 Speaker 2: in That's how they've done it in other states, and 215 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:20,559 Speaker 2: it's a win win for a smart government. 216 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: Well, Andrew Denton, I really appreciate your time this morning. Now, 217 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 1: to those who've not been able to attend the two 218 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,679 Speaker 1: forums happening, where else can they get some further information 219 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 1: about Go Gentle. If they've got some questions, or if 220 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: they do want to find out a little bit more 221 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 1: about how things have happened in other states. 222 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 2: They can go to our website Go Gentleaustralia dot org 223 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 2: dot au, or I would advise them to go to 224 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:50,439 Speaker 2: Kota here in Darwin or the Northern Territory Voluntary Euthanasia Society, 225 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 2: both of whom will give them great information and also 226 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 2: give them ways to get further engaged. 227 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: Well, Go Gentle Australia's founding director Andrew Denton, much love, 228 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: Dozsie and a very well known voice I know to 229 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 1: so many people listening this morning, I really appreciate your time. 230 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: Thank you very much for chatting with. 231 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 2: Me, Katie. Thank you so much, great to talk to you. 232 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: Thank you, thanks very much.