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Speaker 1: Vision by the Northern Territory Police Commissioner to surge an

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Speaker 1: additional forty police to Alice Springs earlier this week has

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Speaker 1: been positively met by the community, but concerns are still

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Speaker 1: being raised about how big an impact it will have

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Speaker 1: and what's going to happen once those officers leave in

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Speaker 1: a few weeks. The Northern Territory Police Association yesterday issued

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Speaker 1: a statement cautiously supporting the decision but saying the situation

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Speaker 1: is a direct result of poor policy from the government.

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Speaker 1: Now joining me in the studio right now is Lisa Baylis,

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Speaker 1: the senior vice president of the Northern Territory Police Association.

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Speaker 2: Hi, Lisa, good morning Katie.

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Speaker 1: Now Lisa, what was your reaction to that surge in

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Speaker 1: Alice Springs of police officers.

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Speaker 2: Well, look, clearly it's needed this current time in Alice Springs.

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Speaker 2: Things seem to be a little bit out of control

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Speaker 2: in the town in relation to youth who are just

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Speaker 2: running right. But on the other hand, those resources need

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Speaker 2: to come from somewhere. So although we do support it,

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Speaker 2: we know that is going to be an impact on

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Speaker 2: police and other areas well.

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Speaker 1: That's a big concern I guess as well. Isn't it is?

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Speaker 1: What's it going to mean? Are we going to have

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Speaker 1: a shortfall across Darwin or the top end or other

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Speaker 1: parts of the territory.

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Speaker 2: Well, my understanding is that they've been taken from a

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Speaker 2: number of areas, including Social Order Unit in Darwin, They've

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Speaker 2: come from the College Intel and I've heard they've also

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Speaker 2: come from some remote remote stations as well, and any

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Speaker 2: removal of resources from these areas is going to have

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Speaker 2: an impact on the police's ability to police in those areas.

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Speaker 1: Now, Lisa, I know that the Association yesterday was pretty

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Speaker 1: strong in that statement that was issued saying that this

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Speaker 1: situation is a direct result of poor policy from the

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Speaker 1: Northern Territory government. What do you mean by that?

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Speaker 2: Well, if we have our police who as soon as

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Speaker 2: upon graduation, all our police are leaving Darwin, all the

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Speaker 2: probationaries are leaving Darwen and going to Alice Springs and

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Speaker 2: Catherine and also Tenant Creek. There's been a slight policy

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Speaker 2: change now where they're leaving him simon Darwin for about

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Speaker 2: twelve months. But we've got a large contingent of very

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Speaker 2: junior members, inexperienced members who are in those towns and

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Speaker 2: so I suppose their policing experience is limited. Having said that,

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Speaker 2: the amount of the amount of crime and chaos that's

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Speaker 2: happening in Alice Springs and also now Catherine as well,

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Speaker 2: with the youth who are stealing motor vehicles and driving

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Speaker 2: at police, it's out of control. And I see that

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Speaker 2: the legislation that you know, the weekend bail laws, the

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Speaker 2: removal of the stronger futures legislation, this is having a

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Speaker 2: direct impact on the situations in the ground and in

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Speaker 2: those places.

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Speaker 1: And Lisa, at the moment, you know, there is a

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Speaker 1: real sense from the community that that crime is out

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Speaker 1: of control, particularly in places like Catherine and Allas Springs.

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Speaker 1: But you know, even this morning, I was watching terrible

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Speaker 1: vision of a home being invaded yesterday morning, somebody getting

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Speaker 1: inside the house of an elderly couple in Marra is

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Speaker 1: my understanding, and with a knife. And there is that

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Speaker 1: real sense at the moment of lawlessness or things being

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Speaker 1: out of control, like how the police feeling as they're

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Speaker 1: seeing you know, issue upon issue unfold.

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Speaker 2: Well, the feedback from our members is that you're exactly

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Speaker 2: a spot on. There is the controls that we had

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Speaker 2: in place where you'd actually find someone, you'd arrest them,

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Speaker 2: you'd take them before the courts. The courts would then

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Speaker 2: put that person behind bars. Effectively, that's not happening anymore.

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Speaker 2: We're getting people, especially with youth offenders, they're getting bailed.

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Speaker 2: They commit offenses, we arrest them, they get bail again.

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Speaker 2: And it's a bit like a revolving door with the

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Speaker 2: older offenders as well. It just seems to be. And

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Speaker 2: I know that we have a situation where the government

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Speaker 2: is saying that the jails are full, but I would

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Speaker 2: have to question when the comunity safety is at risk,

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Speaker 2: the judiciary need to actually putting these people in jail

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Speaker 2: the long term. If there's no consequences, there's actually no

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Speaker 2: reason not to you not to stop committing offenses.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's you know, I think you've hit the nail

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Speaker 1: on the head, probably in the sense that a lot

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Speaker 1: of that's the way that a lot of people in

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Speaker 1: the community are really feeling. They feel as though more

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Speaker 1: needs to be done. They know the police are doing

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Speaker 1: incredibly important work. You mentioned before in relation to there

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Speaker 1: being a number of probationary officers in the likes of

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Speaker 1: Alice Springs and Catherine, and I know that we've had

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Speaker 1: quite a few new recruits coming through, so it's great

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Speaker 1: to have more police entering the force. But does that

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Speaker 1: make it difficult then in terms of policing while people

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Speaker 1: are still fairly inexperienced.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look it does. Obviously, they're still learning their craft.

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Speaker 2: They should have some oversight, they should have some supervision

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Speaker 2: so that they make sure that they're doing things properly.

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Speaker 2: It does take a bit of time for a police officer,

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Speaker 2: you know, when they leave the training college to actually

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Speaker 2: start to learn how to do things correctly. You know,

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Speaker 2: Policing is it's not like working at a supermarket. You've

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Speaker 2: actually got to know your legislation, your law, your policy

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Speaker 2: and interacting with people. There's there's so much that you

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Speaker 2: have to actually develop over your lifetime in your career.

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Speaker 2: And we have had a high attrition rate. We've had

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Speaker 2: a lot of experienced police officers that have left the

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Speaker 2: Northern Territory and it has had a significant impact on

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Speaker 2: our force and it's unfortunate. Right now we're in the

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Speaker 2: stages of going through a consent agreement negotiations with the government,

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Speaker 2: and that it does have an impact on our ability

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Speaker 2: to attract people that are experienced police officers. We have

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Speaker 2: an accelerated recruit program and in order to get those

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Speaker 2: people to the Northern Territory you have to make sure

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Speaker 2: that you have an attractive package for them to join.

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Speaker 2: And unless we have a you know, a quite an

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Speaker 2: attractive package for someone to join the Northern Territory Police

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Speaker 2: and our current what's happened with the criminal trial and

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Speaker 2: also the inquest in relation to Kamenjoi Walker. It's very

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Speaker 2: difficult at this time because we haven't seen a lot

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Speaker 2: of support for our police force. It's in publicly and

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Speaker 2: also within the normal Churchy police. A lot of them

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Speaker 2: are hurting quite a lot and I think that's contributed

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Speaker 2: to the attrition rate.

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Speaker 1: How is the morale in the force at the moment.

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Speaker 2: Well, look, it's we haven't heard any different from our

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Speaker 2: when we did our survey last and when members do

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Speaker 2: speak to us, there's a lot of unhappy police. Things

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Speaker 2: are really tough. It's we've had a very different couple

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Speaker 2: couple of years with COVID and also obviously with the

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Speaker 2: trial and now the inquest, our reputation has taken a battering.

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Speaker 2: The normal Churchy Police. It's been a very difficult time

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Speaker 2: for our members.

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Speaker 1: Now I want to talk through these numbers because I

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Speaker 1: know that the annual report, the Police Annual Report was

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Speaker 1: tabled in Parliament earlier this week and it shows some

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Speaker 1: changes to those police numbers. How are our numbers looking

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Speaker 1: this year compared to the previous year?

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Speaker 2: Well, I would question that do we have an police

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Speaker 2: to do what the government wants us to do? And

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Speaker 2: I don't think we do. If the policies, the legislation

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Speaker 2: that the government's got in place is saying that we've

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Speaker 2: got law in order that's just completely out of control.

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Speaker 2: And you mentioned lawlessness before. We need more police to

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Speaker 2: actually look after the community and the government needs to

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Speaker 2: step up to the plate and probably effectively what should

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Speaker 2: be done as a resource review of the normal tertary police.

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Speaker 2: Our responsibilities have increased significantly, and it's from the very

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Speaker 2: beginning of when the phone rings in JESK, which is

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Speaker 2: our joint emergency services to general duties who are responding

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Speaker 2: to when we're actually compiling a prosecution file and taking

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Speaker 2: it to court. There's been processes that are changed over

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Speaker 2: the years and it's a significant impact on our ability

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Speaker 2: to actually respond to the community in a timely and efficient,

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Speaker 2: inefficient matter.

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Speaker 1: I mean a resource review. I think, well, what do

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Speaker 1: you think that would do? Well, how do you think

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Speaker 1: it it'd sort of work.

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Speaker 2: I think it would probably highlight that police is significantly

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Speaker 2: under resourced, and an example being the requirement to respond

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Speaker 2: to an emergency situation Ella Springs, we have to find

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Speaker 2: forty police within within the Northern Church of police from

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Speaker 2: other areas. So of course when they're left short, the

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Speaker 2: people that are left behind in those areas they're going

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Speaker 2: to have to do over time. All things aren't going

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Speaker 2: to get done this, We're just not going to get

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Speaker 2: the work that needs to be done.

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Speaker 1: Now, talk me through these numbers, because from what I

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Speaker 1: can see, it looks as though we've got thirty five

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Speaker 1: less officers compared to the previous year. Is that correct?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look, that that is correct. That's from the government's estimates,

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Speaker 2: and I think that was then report that was released yesterday.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 2: And it's clear that we are we are down and

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Speaker 2: that's going to be an ongoing issue with attrition if

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Speaker 2: it continues to remain at the level that it is. Now,

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Speaker 2: how do we how do.

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Speaker 1: We change that? How do we make sure that we

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Speaker 1: are because we constantly sort of hear from the Northern

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Speaker 1: Territory government that we've got more, you know, more police

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Speaker 1: than ever before and a bigger budget than ever before.

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Speaker 1: But it seems so we just need we do need

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Speaker 1: more police on the ground.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we definitely do need more police. The workload of

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Speaker 2: has gone significantly in the last couple of years and

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Speaker 2: it's I think pre COVID it had been increasing. COVID

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Speaker 2: was a little bit of a you know, an artificial

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Speaker 2: time where everything stopped for a little bit. But now

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Speaker 2: that with stronger futures legislation, that's changed having a significant

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Speaker 2: impact on policing. We are responding to more calls with

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Speaker 2: alcohol related violence, domestic violence and obviously the youth issue

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Speaker 2: used don't want to be at home. It's not a

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Speaker 2: safe place for them to be and it's really difficult.

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Speaker 2: I can see that the government probably wants to change

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Speaker 2: a generational change, but the situation remains the same right

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Speaker 2: now in terms of law and order. That's not going

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Speaker 2: to change in a hurry, So you need the resources

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Speaker 2: to respond to that. Long term, there needs to be

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Speaker 2: additional resources in other areas and those other government and

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Speaker 2: non government departments because police can't do everything.

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Speaker 1: And so Lisa in terms of a attrition, how are

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Speaker 1: things tracking.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look, for I think this year it's around about

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Speaker 2: ten percent. And I think again that came from the

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Speaker 2: annual report that came out yesterday, which is really really concerning.

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Speaker 2: We've had a significant increase over the last couple of years.

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Speaker 2: Our attrition continues to rise and it's going to have

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Speaker 2: an impact, like I said before, on the experienced officers

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Speaker 2: versus our junior officers.

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Speaker 1: Well, I tell you what, it sounds as though there

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Speaker 1: is quite a bit of quite a bit that needs

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Speaker 1: to happen, and I'm interested in that idea of a

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Speaker 1: resource review to have a look through exactly what is

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Speaker 1: going on. I know that just a couple of months back,

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Speaker 1: the Police Minister had said that there was going to

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Speaker 1: be a review into the HR element of the police,

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Speaker 1: and they were looking into various other things. But it

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Speaker 1: does seem as though there needs to be a closer

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Speaker 1: look at exactly what's going on, how those police resources

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Speaker 1: are being utilized and yeah, some of the different areas

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Speaker 1: that maybe there could be some changes made.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I think it's important to understand that, you know,

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Speaker 2: the time taken to do certain things when police have

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Speaker 2: to respond to a job, and that's a direct result

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Speaker 2: usually of legislative change and policy change. You know, it

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Speaker 2: can be anything for how we respond to a domestic

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Speaker 2: to how we respond to someone who's intoxicated. If we

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Speaker 2: have to take the person to say, for example, intoxicated person,

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Speaker 2: we don't take them to the watchhouse. Usually it'll be

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Speaker 2: to the sobering up shelter if they're severely intoxicated, to

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Speaker 2: the hospital, and those things take time. If we're dealing

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Speaker 2: with youth, we've got certain processes we have to do. Again,

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Speaker 2: all those things take time, and if police are tied

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Speaker 2: up in these processes, which are probably important, we need

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Speaker 2: to make sure we're doing it correctly. But then that

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Speaker 2: has a direct impact on the other resources that are available.

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Speaker 2: Like I said, if the government wants us to do

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Speaker 2: all the things they want us to do, they need

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Speaker 2: to actually resources properly well.

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Speaker 1: Senior Vice President of the Northern Territory Police Association, Lisa Bayless,

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Speaker 1: thanks so much for your time this morning.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Katie,