1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,360 Speaker 1: Just a heads up that today's episode contains distressing themes, 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:08,640 Speaker 1: including child sexual abuse. Listener discretion is advised already. And 3 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: this is the Daily This is the Daily OS. Oh 4 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: now it makes sense. Good morning and welcome to the 5 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: Daily OS. It's Wednesday, the fifth of February. I'm Billy 6 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: fitz Simon's. 7 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 2: And I'm a Cholla Rock. 8 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: This week, the New South Wales government introduced legislation to 9 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: remove the use of good character references during criminal sentencing. 10 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: If passed, it would make New South Wales the first 11 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: date in Australia to do so. In today's podcast, a 12 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,520 Speaker 1: Choll will walk us through the year's long campaigning that's 13 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: led to this reform that advocates are calling one of 14 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: the most monumental shifts in how the courts approach sentencing. 15 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: A Choll welcome back to the podcast. 16 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. Billy. 17 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: So you have been covering this topic for TDA and 18 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: you've been talking to victim survivors, you're spoken to the government, 19 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: the opposition. Before we get into that, I think we 20 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: just need to set this scene. What exactly are good 21 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 1: character references? 22 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 2: That's right, So basically, in the context of New South Wales, courts, 23 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 2: convicted offenders are allowed to present good character references, which 24 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 2: then the judge will go away and consider when deciding 25 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 2: the final sentence. 26 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: And so, what exactly are those good character references? Like, 27 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: what actually are we talking about? 28 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 2: So when we do talk about good character references, we're 29 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:40,400 Speaker 2: talking about things like an offender's reputation, their criminal history, 30 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 2: or rather their lack of a criminal history. And it 31 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 2: can also mean things like previous awards if they've received them, 32 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 2: that demonstrate a significant contribution to society. 33 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: And in practice, that means that the judge might reduce 34 00:01:54,880 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 1: a perpetrator's sentence because of this previous, supposed good character 35 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: evidence exactly. 36 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 2: So you know, it might be typical for a judge 37 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 2: to sentence someone to five years for a certain crime, 38 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 2: and because of this evidence, it could be reduced to 39 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 2: you know, four and a half years, got it. 40 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: And we're talking here about all criminal cases, not just 41 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 1: sexual assault cases. 42 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 2: That's right. But in two thousand and eight, there was 43 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 2: an exception that was introduced, and basically what that meant 44 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 2: was that good character references couldn't be used in child 45 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 2: sexual abuse cases. And to clarify, that means victims who 46 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 2: are under the age of sixteen, but that was the 47 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,919 Speaker 2: only exception. So today it's still used in sexual abuse 48 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 2: cases for victims who are over the age of sixteen. 49 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 1: Okay, so that's what the law currently is. But now 50 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: we have this reform. Before we explain what the new 51 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: reform is, here is just a quick message from today's sponsor. 52 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: How did the idea for this reform come about? 53 00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, so this has been in the works for quite 54 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 2: a while now. Back in twenty twenty four, the government 55 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 2: did commission a review into the practice and ultimately came 56 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 2: to the conclusion that it should be scrapped. That was 57 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 2: one of the key recommendations that the review made. And 58 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 2: what's been really pivotal about this review is that the 59 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 2: experiences of victim survivors basically informed that review. 60 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: And I know you spoke to some of those victim 61 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:26,399 Speaker 1: survivors who have literally sat in courts whilst they're perpetrators 62 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: who have been found guilty, had people come in to 63 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: talk about, you know, their supposed good character prior to 64 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: them committing this crime. 65 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 2: That's exactly right. So I spoke to a young man 66 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 2: called Harrison James, and he is the co founder of 67 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 2: the Your Reference Ain't Relevant campaign, which has been one 68 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 2: of the leading voices for the cause. He began the 69 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 2: movement back in twenty twenty two, and you know, his 70 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 2: motivations were driven by his own personal, lived experience of 71 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 2: child sexual abuse. Now hears a little bit about his story, 72 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 2: and just a warning that this next section does contain 73 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 2: distressing details. 74 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 3: I was sexually abused by my stepmother from the ages 75 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 3: of thirteen to sixteen, and she felt pregnant to my daughter. 76 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 3: My perpetrator was able to get in contact with me, 77 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 3: not because she was this evil monster, but because she 78 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 3: had this good character, and she cultivated this relationship of 79 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 3: trust with my own mother and my grandmother and people 80 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 3: who thought that I was safe in her care. 81 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 2: And when I was speaking to Harrison, he told me 82 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 2: these stories about how his trauma of abuse was only 83 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,720 Speaker 2: compounded by his experiences trying to seek justice. 84 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 3: To have to sit there and hear that the person 85 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 3: who perpetrated that crime upon you as this great person 86 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 3: is absolutely devastating. If you sexually abuse a child, you 87 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 3: are not of good character, and if you were violent 88 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 3: towards your partner, you were not of good character. 89 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 1: Hearing Harrison talk about that, you can really just only 90 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: imagine how deeply distressing that would be. 91 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 2: Absolutely and what's really interesting here is that when he 92 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 2: did starf his campaign, he only originally focused on erasing 93 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 2: good character evidence in child abuse cases, and under the 94 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 2: proposed laws, as we mentioned at the start of the podcast, 95 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 2: it will now apply to every kind of criminal case. 96 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 2: And that's what he calls a dream come true for 97 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 2: his advocacy journey. 98 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 3: This reform is about restoring confidence in a system that 99 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 3: too often feels overwhelming and unreachable for survivors and victims 100 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 3: of crime. I hope that this reform sends the opposite message. 101 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 3: I hope this change gives survivors the confidence to come 102 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 3: forward knowing the courts will focus on what happened to them, 103 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 3: not who their offender knows or how they're perceived in society. 104 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 3: I pursue this reform for the little me who experienced that, 105 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 3: and for every child who might otherwise have to sit 106 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 3: in the courtroom and hear how great their perpetrator was. 107 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 3: We wanted to ensure that what happened to us doesn't 108 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 3: happen to the next kid. 109 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: Okay, So the new South Wales government has introduced the bill, 110 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: but it still needs to pass Parliament, so that's the 111 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 1: next step. Do we know if it will pass parliament. 112 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 2: At this stage, it's really hard to tell, you know, 113 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 2: you can never put a fixed date on how, you know, 114 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 2: legislations move through the houses. As you mentioned, it's been 115 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 2: introduced in the lower House, so at the moment it'll 116 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 2: need to go through its votes, it'll be debated, it'll 117 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 2: be you know, amended, and then it'll go to the 118 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 2: Upper House where the same processes will take place, and 119 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 2: then we will find out the outcome. 120 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:32,679 Speaker 1: And do we know if the opposition will. 121 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 2: Support it so at the moment not yet. I did 122 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:39,040 Speaker 2: reach out to the opposition and they have declined to comment, 123 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 2: basically on the basis that they haven't had the time 124 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 2: to review the legislation. 125 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: Hi Charll, thank you for taking us through that, and 126 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:47,479 Speaker 1: thank you for coming back into the podchair. 127 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:48,559 Speaker 2: And thank you Billy. 128 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 1: And if this story has brought up any issues for 129 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: you, you can call one eight hundred respect on one eight 130 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 1: hundred seven three seven seven three to two. We'll be 131 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: back this afternoon with your evening headlines, but until then, 132 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: we hope you have a great day. 133 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 2: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 134 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 2: Bungelung Kalkadin woman from Gadighl country. 135 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 3: The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on 136 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 3: the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to 137 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 3: all Aboriginal and torrest Rate island and nations. We pay 138 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 3: our respects to the first peoples of these countries, both 139 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 3: past and present.