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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 3: Hello and welcome to the Happy Family's podcast. My name

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Speaker 3: is doctor Justin Coulson. It's great to have you listening.

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Speaker 3: I'm really excited for today's conversation because it's about a

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Speaker 3: brand new TV show starting tonight on SBS. It's called

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Speaker 3: The Swap and my guest today is Ali Kadri. Let

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Speaker 3: me tell you a bit about Ali. He's been the

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Speaker 3: CEO of the Islamic College of Brisbane for the last

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Speaker 3: three years and he's also the architect behind the TV

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Speaker 3: show The Swap, which is an Australian first social experiment

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Speaker 3: exploring what happens when you take twelve students and families

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Speaker 3: from very different cultures, religions and backgrounds and you will

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Speaker 3: you bring their worlds together.

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Speaker 1: There's only one station that brings you everything. You're opening in.

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Speaker 4: Brisbane today in Australia, a unique experiment is.

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Speaker 1: About to unfold there.

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Speaker 2: You have a great day, a.

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Speaker 1: School swap that brings together twelve students and families from

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Speaker 1: very different cultures and religions.

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Speaker 3: So strong over this program and I've seen the first

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Speaker 3: of three episodes, It basically covers one school term and

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Speaker 3: early accompanies these students on an eye opening, provocative, emotional

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Speaker 3: rollercoaster of a journey as they experience anxiety and excitement

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Speaker 3: and I think wonder as they engage with one another's

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Speaker 3: schools and families and communities. For everybody who's involved, the

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Speaker 3: swap is literally the first time that they've experienced been

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Speaker 3: close to someone who sees the world in a completely

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Speaker 3: different way. We're talking about a bunch of kids at

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Speaker 3: an Islamic college who in many cases have not actually

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Speaker 3: got any friends who are not Islamic. And we've got

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Speaker 3: kids who have no religious affiliation whatsoever, and kids who

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Speaker 3: have strong Christian ideas, and they're bringing it all together

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Speaker 3: in this TV show. It's just it's a fascinating show.

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Speaker 3: We're going to talk about in a second. Let me

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Speaker 3: tell you about Ali. He was born and raised in India.

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Speaker 3: Following the death of his brother during a period of

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Speaker 3: sectarian violence and anti Muslim riots, Ali's father encouraged.

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Speaker 1: Him to move from India to Australia so that he

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Speaker 1: could study.

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Speaker 3: He arrived in Brisbane in two thousand and three completed

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Speaker 3: a Master of Business Administration and NBA at Charles Stair

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Speaker 3: University and a Master of Professional Accounting at JCU and

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Speaker 3: a graduate certificate in International Relations at Griffith. My goodness,

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Speaker 3: Ali has some qualifications coming out of his ears. He

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Speaker 3: lives in Brisbane and the first episode of The Swap

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Speaker 3: premieres this evening on SBS. Ali, Welcome to The Happy

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Speaker 3: Family's podcast. Long intro, but I think that everything we're

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Speaker 3: talking about today, we want to make sure that everyone

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Speaker 3: knows who you are and what you've done.

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Speaker 4: Now, thank you.

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Speaker 2: That was a fantastic introductor for Justin. I'm really humbled

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Speaker 2: to be here today.

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Speaker 1: Can you.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I've kind of given a bit of a

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Speaker 3: description of the show, but I want to put myself

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Speaker 3: in your shoes for a secon. And in episode one

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Speaker 3: we kind of get this opportunity. You're the CEO of

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Speaker 3: an Islamic college which is really conservative and obviously strongly

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Speaker 3: religiously oriented, and you bring six kids who either have

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Speaker 3: no faith whatsoever or a Christian faith into the school

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Speaker 3: environment and they get introduced to everything that you guys do.

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Speaker 3: But then you send six of your kids into a

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Speaker 3: state school or a Catholic school, into these completely different

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Speaker 3: environments as well. Can you describe the pressure that you

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Speaker 3: felt as you came up with this idea and tried

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Speaker 3: to convince families that this would be a great idea.

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Speaker 2: I'm still a little bit anxious before it goes on

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Speaker 2: how people are going to receive it and feel about

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Speaker 2: all this. But to be honest, I mean, nothing worth

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Speaker 2: doing it is easy, and I always believe that right

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Speaker 2: things are always difficult at the start, but if you

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Speaker 2: do it with sincerity and good intentions, then the result

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Speaker 2: is always positive. So there was a lot of stress

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Speaker 2: and anxiety when I kind of came with the idea

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Speaker 2: and when we are actually filming. But you know, I

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Speaker 2: do know that this is the right thing to do,

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Speaker 2: not just for our community here in istam ecology of Brisbane,

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Speaker 2: but I think for a wider community and for the

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Speaker 2: Australians moving forward.

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Speaker 1: Let me ask you why it's the right thing to do.

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Speaker 3: Why is this I guess you'd call it integration or familiarization.

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Speaker 1: Why do you see it is so important?

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Speaker 2: So it partly is because of my experiences growing up

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Speaker 2: in India. I mean, people know India is quite a

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Speaker 2: diverse nation. I am from a minority community in India

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Speaker 2: versus Muslim community and growing up, you know, I kind

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Speaker 2: of had a lot of friends o her of different faith.

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Speaker 2: But then you know, over the last few decades, I

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Speaker 2: guess people in India have been separating from each other.

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Speaker 2: They've been developing in silos. So there were many sort

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Speaker 2: of Indias within India, if you like. And what that

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Speaker 2: did was that created so much mistrust that the polity

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Speaker 2: and geopolitics and ill intentioned people utilize that to cause

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Speaker 2: further divisions, divisions which led into arts. Right, I come

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Speaker 2: to Australia and for the first time in my life

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Speaker 2: as a minority. I'm still a minority in Australia, but

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Speaker 2: I felt more accepted than I felt growing up in India,

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Speaker 2: and kind of I always say this that I embraced

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Speaker 2: Australia as my country because of how people made me

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Speaker 2: feel here, which was much better than how I felt

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Speaker 2: in India. Now, when I meet Australian Muslims were born

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Speaker 2: and brought up here, especially post September eleven, there is

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Speaker 2: a bit of you know, alienation going on because they

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Speaker 2: feel like, you know, the wider community kind of looks

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Speaker 2: at them with mistrust. There is Islamophobia, so they kind

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Speaker 2: of bunker down into their silo, and you know, the

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Speaker 2: parents want to make sure that they shield their young

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Speaker 2: children from islam phobia, so they send them to Islamic school,

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Speaker 2: and then Islamic school is very bunkered.

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Speaker 4: Down as well.

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Speaker 2: You don't have any non Muslim kids at like one

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Speaker 2: or two, and you know, out of sixteen hundred students,

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Speaker 2: we already have one or two. So I was quite

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Speaker 2: shocked that, you know, you have students who are born

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Speaker 2: and brought up in Australia and don't have non Muslim friends,

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Speaker 2: which is not a good thing for them because when

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Speaker 2: they go out in the wider world, let's face it,

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Speaker 2: majority of the people are not Muslims, not just in

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Speaker 2: Australia but across the world, and majority of the people

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Speaker 2: don't think like Muslims. They're different. So I think the

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Speaker 2: most important skill you got to learn is how do

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Speaker 2: you interact with them and feel confident in your identity

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Speaker 2: as Australian and as Muslim. And I think the best

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Speaker 2: way to do that was to do it in a

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Speaker 2: controlled educational setting where we expose them to different ideas

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Speaker 2: and see how they interact with different ideas. Sometimes polar

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Speaker 2: opposed ideas, and to my pleasant surprise, you know, the

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Speaker 2: kids handle it very well. And I think it's good

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Speaker 2: for our country to get to know each other. I mean,

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Speaker 2: you know, at the end of the day, no matter

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Speaker 2: when we came from or where we came from, we

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Speaker 2: are all Australialliams, and the efforts we are going to

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Speaker 2: make are going to add to the success or the

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Speaker 2: progress of our country collectively.

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Speaker 4: So why not get to know each other? That was

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Speaker 4: the main reason.

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Speaker 2: Fifty percent of the kids are like not gay, but

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Speaker 2: like they have different like what do you call that sexualities?

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Speaker 1: There are some really challenging moments in this college.

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Speaker 3: It's provocative. There's there's no other way to say it.

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Speaker 3: How badly could this have gone for you?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 2: Look, I mean ultimately I could have lost my job

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Speaker 2: very early on. I mean I've only started three years ago.

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Speaker 2: But luckily I have the support of the board of

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Speaker 2: the school. The community overall is quite supportive. But you know,

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Speaker 2: when things go wrong, when you do something different and

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Speaker 2: things go wrong, you know, usually individual is blamed for

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Speaker 2: no matter how good your intentions are, and you know

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Speaker 2: you have to be able to take those risks sometimes

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Speaker 2: to to sort of do the right thing, and it

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Speaker 2: could have been it could have been cost me my

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Speaker 2: job effectively.

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Speaker 3: As I was watching episode one, which as I mentioned,

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Speaker 3: is airing on SBS this evening, I was thinking, very

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Speaker 3: much so, Kylie and I have a religious faith, and

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Speaker 3: we're open about expressing that, but we also often feel

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Speaker 3: like we want to not make any noise about that

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Speaker 3: and just let everybody live their lives the way that

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Speaker 3: they want to live their lives, and will live our

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Speaker 3: way as well. I've always felt there was a religious parent,

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Speaker 3: that there is pressure for me that people who do

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Speaker 3: not have a religious orientation don't experience. What was really

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Speaker 3: fascinating was watching parents with no religious affiliation at all,

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Speaker 3: People who quite happily say I'm an atheist, I'm agnostic,

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Speaker 3: I don't know where I am.

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Speaker 1: People who have extremely.

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Speaker 3: Liberal views as they start to interact with people whose

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Speaker 3: views a different their values are, I guess under pressure

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Speaker 3: regardless of where you fit on that political spectrum or

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Speaker 3: the faith spectrum, or whatever value spectrum you want to choose.

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Speaker 3: And I thought, well, I saw things really differently watching it.

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Speaker 1: It really was eye opening to me.

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Speaker 3: People who have a strong Christian faith, as they have

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Speaker 3: a child who identifies and says.

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Speaker 1: I really like it a lot.

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Speaker 3: I'm feeling a little bit envy around what they do

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Speaker 3: in an Islamic school.

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Speaker 1: There are some good things there, and the parents.

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Speaker 3: Are kind of going, oh, I don't know if I

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Speaker 3: like this, because we want our child to respond.

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Speaker 1: To our values.

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Speaker 3: Parents who are atheistic, parents who are far left liberal

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Speaker 3: leaning parents having values challenged by kids who are saying,

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Speaker 3: you know what, I'm wearing the Muslim clothing. I'm following

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Speaker 3: a modest path as I'm having this experience, and it

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Speaker 3: actually feels good and I quite like how I look.

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Speaker 3: Everybody was confronted. Everybody was challenged. What was the most

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Speaker 3: die opening thing for you as you walk through this

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Speaker 3: twelve week, one term experience with these twelve kids.

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Speaker 2: You rightly pointed out, I mean people had the participants

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Speaker 2: had quite a different value system, and they wanted to

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Speaker 2: bring up their kids in the values they sort of

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Speaker 2: hold so dear. But they all had anxieties. I mean,

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Speaker 2: Muslim parents thought that, you know, their kids or themselves

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Speaker 2: will be judged or be looked at in a different

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Speaker 2: way for being Muslims. There were eighties parents who thought

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Speaker 2: that their values will be undermined or disrespected, or they

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Speaker 2: will not be accepted because of their values. So it

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Speaker 2: just shows that all of us, kind of, while wanting

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Speaker 2: to protect our values, always worry that other people may

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Speaker 2: think bad of us or wrong of our values.

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Speaker 4: And I think that's not always the case.

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Speaker 2: I think, you know a lot of times we respect

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Speaker 2: each other or at least understand each other's values. But

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Speaker 2: the person who is on the receiving it or or

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Speaker 2: who is believing in that stuff generally feels that their

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Speaker 2: values are going to be undermind. So to Gilar classically example,

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Speaker 2: you know I look different, of course, I'm I'm of

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Speaker 2: Indian origin. I go out with my wife who is

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Speaker 2: from Morocco and she wears a hit job. And when

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Speaker 2: we go out, a lot of times, you know, people

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Speaker 2: especially in countrytown North Queensland, people would look at us

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Speaker 2: and look at her in a way where she felt

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Speaker 2: a little uncomfortable. And she's been recently arrived. She's recently

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Speaker 2: arrived into Australia from Morocco, which is the majority Muslim country,

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Speaker 2: so she kind of felt like, you know, why are

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Speaker 2: they're looking at me? Is it because they're judging me?

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Speaker 2: You know my danger? But most of the times it's

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Speaker 2: just out of curiosity. And it was a beautiful incident

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Speaker 2: where one person went up to her and she's like,

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Speaker 2: I love your scarf.

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Speaker 4: It's beautiful.

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Speaker 2: And that's when she realized that, wow, people are looking

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Speaker 2: at me because I look different, and perhaps they were

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Speaker 2: admiring my scarf rather than thinking, you know, negative or

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Speaker 2: bad of me. And it wouldn't have occurred to her

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Speaker 2: on her own unless that lady came and spoke to her,

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Speaker 2: which needs guts as well, because you know, to go

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Speaker 2: up to a stranger and talk to them, not knowing

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Speaker 2: whether they're are speaking which or not, is a difficult

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Speaker 2: thing to do.

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Speaker 4: But that little.

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Speaker 2: Communication changed her whole experience or perception of you know,

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Speaker 2: living in Australia for example, or people of Australian background.

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Speaker 4: And she was quite very very fondly.

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Speaker 2: She kind of says that, oh, look, you know, people

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Speaker 2: say Australia is a racist country, but they're not.

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Speaker 4: Australians are beautiful, you know, like the good people.

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Speaker 2: Because of her experience, Now that takes courage, that takes

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Speaker 2: effort on both hands, and that is necessary. It's important

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Speaker 2: for us to do so because people unfortunately, unfortunately the

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Speaker 2: people who have, you know, negative ways of dealing with

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Speaker 2: differences are much more louder than most of us who

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Speaker 2: have positive ways of dealing with differences. I mean I personally,

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Speaker 2: you know, went to the Mass in one of the schools.

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Speaker 2: It was my first time going to a Catholic Mass.

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Speaker 2: And you know, there's some things I admired, some things

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Speaker 2: I didn't understand, some things I found quite awkward and different,

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Speaker 2: but you know, the overall experience was amazing. I was

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Speaker 2: great to be there, you know, in that church, in

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Speaker 2: the mass and participating in it. It didn't make me

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Speaker 2: any less of a Muslim, but it most certainly gave

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Speaker 2: me a whole new level of understanding and respect for

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Speaker 2: Australian's what happens. And I wouldn't have done that. I

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Speaker 2: wouldn't have gotten that respect unless I got out of

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Speaker 2: my comfort zone when you do that church, and I

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Speaker 2: was strong enough in my identity that I will not

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Speaker 2: This does not compromise.

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Speaker 3: People think they're very rude and just a bit scary.

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Speaker 1: I want to be seen as me and not my job,

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Speaker 1: not scary towers or something like that.

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Speaker 3: I love the stories that you've shared there, and it

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Speaker 3: reminds me of I don't remember the name of the

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Speaker 3: scholar who came up with this phrase, but there's a

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Speaker 3: religious scholar who talks about this thing called holy envy,

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Speaker 3: the idea of holy envy.

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Speaker 1: And you don't even have to be a religious habit.

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Speaker 1: It's literally looking for the good in what others do.

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Speaker 3: So if you have a religious practice that's different to

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Speaker 3: somebody else, as you might say, well, I don't believe

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Speaker 3: what they believe, but I love the way they do this,

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Speaker 3: or I really.

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Speaker 1: Appreciate their reverence for such and such like.

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Speaker 3: We can have this appreciation even if we don't necessarily

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Speaker 3: buy what they're believing or selling or whatever.

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Speaker 2: That does not and not just that does not undermine

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Speaker 2: who we are. I mean, yes, as I mean, look,

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Speaker 2: at the end of the day, if you believe, if

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Speaker 2: you have a belief system, then you know fundamentally that

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Speaker 2: there is a creator who's created us all. So you

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Speaker 2: know whether whatever faith you follow, you are children of

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Speaker 2: the same Father. If that sort of if I was

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Speaker 2: to use a very Christian terminology to explain this, you

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Speaker 2: know your children of the same God, So you know,

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Speaker 2: I think that understanding is fundamentally important that all creation,

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Speaker 2: all human beings are created by the same creator, we

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Speaker 2: practice in a different way, and I think that's where

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Speaker 2: we need to start with our differences, rather than starting

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Speaker 2: by Okay, this is different and I don't like what

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Speaker 2: you do, and I'm going to do everything my power

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Speaker 2: to criticize or change you. And that is I think

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Speaker 2: what the problem or misunderstanding some people have.

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Speaker 3: While the religious differences are front and center in the

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Speaker 3: TV show The Swap, this is really a series about

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Speaker 3: understanding other people, about changing mindsets, about becoming familiar with

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Speaker 3: the unfamiliar, and about stretching our boundaries. The show is

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Speaker 3: on this evening on SBS. Great show. I can't wait

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Speaker 3: to watch the next two episodes. Ali Kadrid, the CEO

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Speaker 3: at ICB, the Islamic College of Brisbane. Congratulations on the show.

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Speaker 3: I can't wait to see how all of these episodes

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Speaker 3: play out. And thanks for joining me to chat about

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Speaker 3: the show today on the podcast Look.

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Speaker 4: Thank you very much for having me today.

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Speaker 2: It was an honor and I hope all the viewers

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Speaker 2: are going to enjoy the show and love to hear

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Speaker 2: more and continue this experiment as we move forward in

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Speaker 2: our future.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely great stuff. I know that they'll enjoy it.

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Speaker 1: In fact, I really recommend it.

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Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to, like I said, watching the next

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Speaker 3: couple of episodes as well. The Happy Family Podcast is

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Speaker 3: produced by Justin Rowland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is

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Speaker 3: our executive producer. For more information about the swap, check

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Speaker 3: our show notes or just google the swap sps. You'll

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Speaker 3: find everything you need so that you can watch the

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Speaker 3: show this evening. If you're listening to the podcast on Wednesday,

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Speaker 3: the eighth of March, which is where this episode is dropping,

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Speaker 3: and for more information about making your family happy at

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Speaker 3: please visit this at happy families dot com dot au