1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: How I Work is having a little break over the 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: festive season, so I've picked a handful of my absolute 3 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:09,480 Speaker 1: favorite episodes from the last eighteen months to play for 4 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 1: you in this best of series. I hope you enjoy, 5 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,080 Speaker 1: and I'll be back with new episodes twice weekly from 6 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: January twenty eight. Earlier this year, I hit burnout, and 7 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: to be honest, in my friendship circle, I don't know 8 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: too many people who haven't had that experience in the 9 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: last couple of years. So when I knew I was 10 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: having Adam Grant back on How I Work, I wanted 11 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: to ask him for advice. Adam is a world renowned 12 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: organizational psychologist and a professor at Wharton, as well as 13 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: being a New York Times bestselling author of six books 14 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: and the host of the incredibly popular work life podcast 15 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: by Ted. Perhaps surprisingly, Adam has had his own experience 16 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: with burnout, despite the fact that he has researched and 17 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: written about the topic for years. So what does Adam 18 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: recommend to prevent burnout? And what changes did he make 19 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: to his own life? And if you're feeling burnt out 20 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 1: right now, what strategies can you put in place to recover? 21 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to how I work a show about habits, rituals, 22 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: and strategies for optimizing your day. I'm your host, doctor 23 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: Amantha Imber. Adam is someone who I feel like operates 24 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: at two hundred percent productivity all the time. So I 25 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: wanted to know has Adam ever experienced burnout? 26 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 2: Definitely. 27 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 3: I feel pretty lucky that I get to design my 28 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 3: own job, and so if I burned out for a 29 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 3: day or two, Wow, my boss made some really bad 30 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 3: design choice. Oh wait, that was me. I need to 31 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 3: rethink how I spend my time to try to get reenergized. 32 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 3: But when I had a real job, I definitely experienced burnout. 33 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 3: And then I've had some acute moments of burnout. So 34 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 3: one of the times when I actually felt the most 35 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 3: burned out was when I was writing my first book. 36 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 3: I don't think I've ever been more fired up for 37 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 3: a project in my entire life. So to set the 38 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:14,239 Speaker 3: scene a little bit, this is twenty eleven. I got 39 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:17,519 Speaker 3: tenure and I realized I don't have to worry about 40 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 3: job security anymore, and I'm not going to let down 41 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 3: by my family by forcing them to move and pulling 42 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 3: our kids out of school. 43 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 2: And it was this euphoric. 44 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 3: Sense that now I had freedom also to think about 45 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 3: long term what impact I wanted to have. And a 46 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 3: group of students talked me into writing a book. I 47 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 3: had a vision. I sat down and the ideas just 48 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 3: poured out of me. I was supposed to be writing 49 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 3: a book proposal, and I got so excited about the 50 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 3: vision that I accidentally wrote the entire book. Basically, I 51 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 3: started writing in May and by August I had over 52 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 3: one hundred thousand words. Then I sent them to my 53 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 3: literary agent and he came back to me and told 54 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 3: me that he didn't even think my academic. 55 00:02:57,520 --> 00:02:59,239 Speaker 2: Colleagues would make it through the whole book. 56 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 3: Wow, it was that boring, And I think my first 57 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 3: reaction was just deep dejection, like I wasted an entire summer, 58 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 3: And then it was a lot of self doubt, can 59 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 3: I ever do this? And then eventually my agent, Richard, said, 60 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 3: you can do this. Just write like you teach, not 61 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:21,399 Speaker 3: like you do research. When I sat down to do it, 62 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 3: it just it was not measuring up to my image 63 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 3: of what it was going to be. And it was 64 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 3: like what Irad Glass talks about when there's a gap 65 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 3: between your skill and your taste. I knew what a 66 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 3: great book read like, and the words that were appearing 67 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 3: on my screen were not that. And I just felt like, Okay, 68 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 3: I'm not working hard enough, and so I started pushing 69 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 3: myself harder and I would go outside in the morning 70 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 3: and write until it was dark. It was just exhausting, 71 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 3: and eventually I felt like it was time to give up. 72 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: Wow, what made you push through? 73 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 2: I don't honestly remember what was I thinking. 74 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 3: I think it was a combination of things. One thing 75 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 3: that happened was I came across a new study that 76 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 3: I was really excited to tell people about, and then 77 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 3: as I listened to myself explaining it, I was like, Oh, 78 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 3: that's how I need to write it. 79 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 2: And so. 80 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 3: I think I produced a couple of paragraphs that sounded 81 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 3: to me pretty good, and that was a little bit 82 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,159 Speaker 3: of a boost of confidence and energy. I guess it 83 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 3: was a small win. And then the other thing that 84 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 3: happened was I started giving my shitty drafts to a 85 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 3: group of undergrad students who told me to write the 86 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 3: book in the first place, and I had them do 87 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 3: ratings of each draft, and a lot of the ratings 88 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 3: were like three four and a half two but they 89 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 3: also weren't zero, and after I made sure that they 90 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 3: were being honest with me, that gave me hope that, 91 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 3: in fact, there was a gem worth polishing here, and 92 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 3: I think I didn't want to let them down, and 93 00:04:57,400 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 3: that gave me an extra kick to keep going. 94 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: So on the topic of burnout, what were the symptoms 95 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:06,919 Speaker 1: that you were experiencing that made you think this is 96 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: something close to maybe what I've read about or lectured about, 97 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 1: because I imagine being an organizational psychology lecturer, you've probably 98 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 1: read a lot about burnout and maybe even taught it well. 99 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 2: Amantha. 100 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 3: What was really disappointing about this experience was I had 101 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 3: published multiple papers on burnout by this point, I had 102 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:30,359 Speaker 3: measured burnout in dozens of jobs, I had analyzed all 103 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 3: the predictors of it. I'd even run experiments and organizations 104 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 3: that successfully reduced burnout, and I taught classes about how 105 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 3: to do that. And here I was experiencing the very 106 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 3: symptoms that I knew how to treat and cure. And 107 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 3: I felt like an idiot, like I'm supposed to be 108 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 3: a burnout expert. Why am I burning out? And what 109 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:53,719 Speaker 3: it felt like first was just the sheer emotional exhaustion. 110 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 3: I felt like I was beating my head against a 111 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 3: brick wall over and over and over again, and the 112 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,600 Speaker 3: harder I pushed the the more it hurt. And with 113 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:05,919 Speaker 3: that came a sense of dread that instead of looking 114 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 3: forward to waking up and working on a chapter, I 115 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,159 Speaker 3: was avoiding it. I was starting to procrastinate, which was 116 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 3: very out of character for me, as you know. And 117 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 3: I think the last thing was the persistent can I 118 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 3: do this? Do I want to do this? The questioning 119 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 3: of my capabilities and my motivation. 120 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 2: That was not fun at all. 121 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: If you could go back and coach yourself from ten 122 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 1: twelve years ago when that was what would you have 123 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 1: told yourself to do differently? 124 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 3: I think the main advice I would have given that 125 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 3: version of myself was start sharing the drafts a lot earlier. 126 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 3: I think that I was worried about embarrassing myself and 127 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:47,919 Speaker 3: I didn't want to waste other people's time. But the 128 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 3: reality is it's really hard to judge your own work, 129 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 3: and it's also very difficult to see the problems in 130 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 3: your own. 131 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 2: Work because you're too close to it. 132 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:58,279 Speaker 3: And so I needed people who had a little bit 133 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 3: of distance who could sort of zoom out and tell 134 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 3: me here's what's broken, and then often when they diagnosed 135 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 3: the bug, I actually had an idea for how to 136 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 3: fix it. There are a lot of reasons why people 137 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 3: hesitate to share their drafts, and it's not just about 138 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 3: the fear of embarrassment. There's also this concern that somebody 139 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 3: else might steal your ideas, either on purpose or by accident. 140 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 3: I think, if you're that afraid that somebody's going to 141 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 3: steal your ideas, you don't have that many ideas. 142 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 2: Which is not a great a great place to be. 143 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 3: But I was thinking about all the downsides of putting 144 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 3: my work out there, and what I failed to consider 145 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 3: was the fact that if I didn't put it out there, 146 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 3: it wasn't going to get better. And also I was 147 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 3: going to end up depriving people who could benefit from 148 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 3: it of ever engaging with it. And I would have 149 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 3: just said, look, get over all of that. You can 150 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 3: choose the audience you're comfortable sharing it with early, but 151 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 3: you've got to get somebody else's eyes in front of it. 152 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: What else would you done, even just to maintain energy 153 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: and try to get back some of that enthusiasm on 154 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:05,679 Speaker 1: a day to day level. 155 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 3: Well, you wrote the book on this quite literally, so 156 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 3: I'm inclined to ask you, Matt, that what should I 157 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 3: have done. I can tell you what my instincts are now, 158 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 3: but you've spent a lot more time thinking about this 159 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 3: than I have. 160 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 2: So you tell me, well, here's the irony, Adam. 161 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: I mean, probably it would have been three weeks ago now, 162 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 1: because I've just spent two weeks on leave and over 163 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: in Vietnam, having the most amazing holiday. The week before 164 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: I left, I realized I hit burnout. I can relate 165 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: to you in terms of the energy and enthusiasm and 166 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: passion that you have for your work and sharing ideas. 167 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 1: And I know a bit about burnout. I haven't published 168 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: papers on burnout, but I'd like to think, as an 169 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 1: organizational psychologist that's fairly well read and also that has 170 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 1: just released a book about health habits, that surely I 171 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: can not be someone the guests burnout. But I did. 172 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: I found in that week where I'm like, I've hit it. 173 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: It's happened to me. I felt like crying all day 174 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: and in between meetings, that's pretty much what I was doing, 175 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 1: just sitting at my desk being just so so sad 176 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: and so stressed, and just feeling like an out of 177 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:16,319 Speaker 1: failure because I just spent the last five months as 178 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:20,439 Speaker 1: being acting CEO of Inventium, and there was certainly moments 179 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 1: where I felt like, yeah, I'm doing a great job, 180 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: but I think right at the end and I found 181 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 1: an amazing person to actually step in and be the permanency, 182 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 1: I just felt like I could just see everything I'd 183 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:33,679 Speaker 1: done wrong. I was scoring myself in that week. I 184 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: feel like I'd give myself a one out of ten 185 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 1: if that, and I could see all the mistakes and 186 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: I couldn't say anything good. I'd invested so much time 187 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: in deepening relationships with people and building trust. I'd had 188 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 1: a couple of conversations in that last week where I 189 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: was just at rock bottom, where I didn't bring enough 190 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 1: empathy to the conversation, and I'm like, did I just 191 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:56,680 Speaker 1: destroy all the trust and goodwill that I had built 192 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 1: over the last few months. And I remember that first 193 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: week on holidays in Vietnam, and I was having the 194 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: most amazing time. But whenever I thought about work and 195 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 1: the idea of returning to work in two weeks, I 196 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: just felt such anxiety and I thought Oh my gosh, 197 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 1: what has happened to me? And how do I get 198 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: out of it? And I just felt really lost. If 199 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: I were, say, writing a piece to help other people, 200 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: I just felt stuck in terms of what on earth 201 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 1: do I do other than take time off? What would 202 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,199 Speaker 1: you advise me? Adam hearing where I was asked. 203 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 3: Well, you're not answering my question, You're trying to make 204 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 3: me answer it. I'm sorry to hear that you went 205 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 3: through that, and I do think that it's I don't 206 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 3: want to say that it's actually good for us, but 207 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 3: sometimes it's necessary to live what we study and write 208 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 3: about in order to remember what it's like and to 209 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 3: make sure we're not just approaching it from the point 210 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 3: of view of theory and data, but we're really getting 211 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 3: close to what people's lived experiences are like. And no 212 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 3: better way to get close to an experience than to 213 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 3: live it. So if you want to become a burner expert, 214 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 3: you should go and burn out as often as possible. 215 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 2: No, at least once. 216 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 3: In your case, it sounds to me like like some 217 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 3: boundaries were missing and you were just stretching yourself very thin. 218 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 3: One of the things that I've both found in my 219 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 3: research and learned through experience over time, is I've got 220 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 3: to start by asking what's the most important project to 221 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 3: me in a given week and prioritize that, and then 222 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 3: if they're not in a hierarchy, I end up just 223 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 3: trying to juggle too much at once. Whereas if I 224 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:31,199 Speaker 3: know what the number one priority is for the week, 225 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 3: I'm willing to accept that some of the others might 226 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 3: fall on the back burner a little bit. That would 227 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 3: I guess that would be my first piece of advice, 228 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,199 Speaker 3: and it really for me. It stems from the classic 229 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 3: research on the role try out of burnout. What causes 230 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 3: people to get extremely stressed out at work is when 231 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 3: they experience role overload and role conflict and role ambiguity. 232 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 3: To apply those to your situation, it sounds like you 233 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 3: had too much to do, you were being dragged in 234 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 3: too many different directions, and also you didn't have clarity 235 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 3: and what success looked like. That would start there and ask, well, 236 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 3: how do you solve those problems? 237 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting hearing you talk about just thinking what 238 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 1: is your most important project or priority for the week, 239 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: and I should have done that, and I felt like 240 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:18,679 Speaker 1: I wanted to do all this stuff. I know you're 241 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:21,079 Speaker 1: a fan of the musical Hamilton, and there's a lyric 242 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,559 Speaker 1: in Hamilton about how he's running out of time. He's 243 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 1: writing like he's running out of time. 244 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 2: Why do you write like you're running out of time? Yes, yes, yes, exactly. 245 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 1: And I had that line going through my brain almost 246 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: every week. I felt like there was so much that 247 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 1: I wanted to do when I stepped back into my 248 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: company in this leadership role, and I could see all 249 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,199 Speaker 1: these things that needed fixing and needed doing, and I 250 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: knew that I was only in this role for a 251 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: finite period of time, and I found it so hard 252 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: to prioritize because I just wanted to do everything and 253 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:57,599 Speaker 1: I had so much passion and so much enthusiasm. And ironically, 254 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: I remember probably about two months months before I had 255 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: this week where I just felt like I hit burnout. 256 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: I went for a walk with a girlfriend who's a 257 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: clinical psychologist, and I was saying to her, I'm getting 258 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: really frustrated because people on my team are telling me 259 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:15,680 Speaker 1: that I'm working two long hours and that I'm setting 260 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 1: a bad example. And I've said to my team, I 261 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,559 Speaker 1: don't expect you to do what I do, and I'm 262 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: really energized by the hours that I'm working, and I 263 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: felt so good and like I was achieving so much. 264 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: And then I thought about that conversation when I hit 265 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 1: that week, and I thought, was I just delusional? Was 266 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 1: I Adam? Was I just living in some fantasy world 267 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: where I thought this was sustainable just because I felt 268 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: really energetic in that moment. 269 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 3: Entirely passable. I don't know, I wasn't in your head. 270 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 3: You tell me, I do. 271 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 1: Wonder, I do wonder, and that I wonder maybe if 272 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,079 Speaker 1: I would have made some different choices between April and June, 273 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: perhaps I wouldn't have hit burnout and I would have 274 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 1: actually sustained that kind of high performance where I felt 275 00:13:58,960 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: like I. 276 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 2: Was ass Yeah, I wonder. 277 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 3: It sounds like you're a frequent victim like me, of 278 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 3: the planning fallacy, where you just underestimate how long different 279 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 3: things are going to take, and when you're looking at 280 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 3: a blue sky calendar a few months down the road, yeah, 281 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 3: of course I can do all that, and then you 282 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 3: forget to do the three x or four x multiple 283 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 3: for the unexpected extra tasks that get added on or 284 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 3: that need to be redone or done differently. And then 285 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 3: you realize you've just overcommitted yourself. 286 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like that was definitely happening. What I 287 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: also struggled with is back to your strategy of what's 288 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: the most important project for the week. I just couldn't 289 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 1: determine that. And so in your life, how do you 290 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: do that? Because that's easier said than done when you're 291 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: excited about lots of things, as I know you are, 292 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: So how do you pick that one project and stay 293 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: true to that vision at least for a week? 294 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 3: I think for me that's evolved over time. So it 295 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 3: used to just be what other people needed from me, 296 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 3: and then gained enough freedom to also ask what am 297 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 3: I excited about? And over time I've learned that's not 298 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 3: enough either for me to really want to make a 299 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 3: project a top priority, It's got to matter to other people, 300 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 3: it's got to be interesting to me. But also I 301 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 3: have to feel like I'm making a unique contribution, that 302 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 3: what I'm doing is not easily substitutable or replaceable. And 303 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 3: I remember reading some of the early research on this. 304 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 3: It was in the social loafing literature, where the classic 305 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 3: finding that many hands often make light the work, and 306 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 3: if you add a sixth or seventh person to a team. 307 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 3: Then each person tends to contribute a little bit less 308 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 3: because they diffuse responsibility and assume that somebody else is 309 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 3: going to pick up the slack. Only then everybody just 310 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 3: ends up doing a little more slack. And one of 311 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 3: the antidotes to that problem was task uniqueness, the idea 312 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 3: that I have a distinctive role to play and that 313 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 3: nobody else can bring what I'm adding to the table. 314 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 3: And when you do that, people don't just assume that 315 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 3: everybody else is going to carry the weight. I found 316 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 3: that that for me is a really big factor. And 317 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 3: it's not just a motivator because it prevents me from 318 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 3: just relying on somebody else to do it. 319 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 2: It's a motivator. 320 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 3: Because I feel like I make a difference, that it's 321 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 3: not just the position I happen to be in. So 322 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 3: often people do jobs that have an impact on others, 323 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 3: but they don't feel like they're delivering that impact. They 324 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 3: feel like they're just a cog in a machine. And 325 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 3: if a leader or a manager goes that extra step 326 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 3: and helps people think about not just who would be 327 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 3: worse off if your job didn't exist, but who would 328 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 3: be worse off if you were not doing this role. 329 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 3: That becomes a major source of energy. 330 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: I like that we have a thing at Inventium, which 331 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: I think a lot of companies have adopted now called 332 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: a one page operating manual, and one of the questions 333 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: that we ask is what would be missing if you 334 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: weren't here or if your job wasn't here. So it 335 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: just reminds me of that, aside from thinking about what's 336 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: just one project you can prioritize for the week, what 337 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: else do you do to make sure well to try 338 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: to prevent burnout in your own life. 339 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 3: It's a good question. There's some healthy habits that I 340 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,880 Speaker 3: think are just table stakes, right. So I'm pretty obsessive 341 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 3: about working out six days a week. There's an element 342 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 3: of joy and play that I try to build into 343 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 3: my schedule. I made the mistake for a long time 344 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 3: of treating fun as a reward for finishing my to 345 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 3: do list, and now it's actually on my to do list. 346 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 3: So I try to have one thing that I'm looking 347 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 3: forward to that's not work every day. A lot of 348 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 3: that is kid centric. In some cases, we might end 349 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 3: up playing soccer or playing Mario Kart and just knowing 350 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 3: that that's on the calendar fires me up to both 351 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 3: be focused and productive in my work and also to 352 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 3: not feel the dread of this day. 353 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 2: Is all work. 354 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 3: And then I think maybe the one of the more 355 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 3: novel things that I've picked up over time is so 356 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,439 Speaker 3: Paul Graham came up with this distinction. I really like 357 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 3: that you're familiar with the maker days and manager days. 358 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,199 Speaker 3: And the aha moment for me when I read that was, Oh, 359 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 3: we all have manager tasks that we have to do 360 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:06,679 Speaker 3: that are administrative, that are exhausting, zoom meetings, and we 361 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:11,119 Speaker 3: also have maker roles and activities where we're creating stuff, 362 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 3: we're solving problems, we're making choices. And the recommendation of 363 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 3: Hall was you should divide your days, get the manager 364 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 3: stuff out of the way one day, and then you 365 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 3: can experience the full joy of the maker tasks on 366 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 3: a different day. In some ways, that's still an ideal 367 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 3: for me, but I've also found that it's pretty exhausting 368 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:32,360 Speaker 3: to have an entire manager day. I just don't like managing. 369 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 3: I like creating. So what I've learned is if I 370 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 3: actually put those manager tasks in a particular block of 371 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 3: the day, I don't mind them as much and they 372 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:43,120 Speaker 3: don't deplete me as much. 373 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 2: And I think the. 374 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:46,199 Speaker 3: Reason I like that so much is that I know 375 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 3: I'm not doing my best creative or analytical work then, 376 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,640 Speaker 3: because there's a circadian rhythm, dip and energy that you're 377 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 3: familiar with. And also I have I've blocked out enough 378 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 3: time in the morning then that i can feel like 379 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 3: I accomplish something and I'm less annoyed by the fact 380 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 3: that the administrative work is interfering with my desire to 381 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 3: do something more magical. So that's probably my if I 382 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 3: had a hack, I hate I actually don't believe in 383 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 3: productivity hacks. I think most things that we do require 384 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 3: a real effort and work and there's not an easy shortcut. 385 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 3: But if I had a hack, it would be like 386 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 3: afternoons our manager time. 387 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 1: I love that and I can relate. I've got my 388 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,120 Speaker 1: calendar up on a different screen in my setup here, 389 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 1: and my meetings are yeah, always in the afternoon. I 390 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 1: feel like it is the best way to get good 391 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 1: maker time in a day. We will be back with 392 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 1: Adam soon where he talks me through his approach to 393 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: scheduling and taking holidays and time off. If you're looking 394 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 1: for more tips to improve the way you work can live. 395 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 1: I write a short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've 396 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: discovered that have helped me personally. You can sign up 397 00:19:55,119 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: for that at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha dot com. 398 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: I want to know about holidays and what is your 399 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:11,679 Speaker 1: approach to taking time off because you never seem to 400 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 1: be off, certainly in terms of your prolific presence on 401 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 1: social media, but what is your approach to taking holidays 402 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: or even just mini breaks. 403 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,159 Speaker 3: Well, this is definitely evolved over time. I used to 404 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:27,120 Speaker 3: be against breaks and I thought, if I've optimized my day, 405 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 3: then every minute will be used effectively, and that one 406 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 3: that's just not sustainable for any immortal and two it 407 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 3: also fails to give you the downtime that you need. 408 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 2: For energy and creativity. What does this look like for me? Now? 409 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 3: What it looks like is I use exercise as a 410 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 3: built in break during the day. I'll run round noon 411 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 3: and that kind of splits up the morning and then 412 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 3: after the run is when I move into the manager time. 413 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 3: Let me just tell you what I do, which is 414 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 3: during the school year, I start working when our kids 415 00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 3: leave for school, and I stop when they get home, 416 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:03,119 Speaker 3: and that is really energetic focus time. And my goal 417 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 3: is to not work once they're home, but if I'm 418 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 3: behind on anything or there's a deadline, sometimes I'll pick 419 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 3: it up after they go to bed. Increasingly, my goal 420 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:14,159 Speaker 3: is to not even do that, so I actually get 421 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,120 Speaker 3: an evening break and I can read or watch TV 422 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 3: or whatever won't annoy my wife, who's even more introverted 423 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:24,159 Speaker 3: than I am. What's useful about that for me is 424 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,479 Speaker 3: it creates a rhythm, and I know that they are 425 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:28,919 Speaker 3: going to be focused work times and then there are 426 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 3: going to be times to detach and enjoy the moment, 427 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 3: which is not something I've been historically that could at. 428 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 3: So that's I guess that's the micro side. How does 429 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 3: that track with what you do and what you advise. 430 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: On a day to day level? And I would say 431 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,679 Speaker 1: all my routines just went out the door for the 432 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: first half of this year, where I felt like I 433 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:52,679 Speaker 1: was in a dual role. I felt like I was 434 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 1: obviously doing the CEO role. But then the health habit 435 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: launched in January, so there was a lot of publicity 436 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: on either side of that, and also feelings of resentment 437 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: that I was in this CEO role when I just 438 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: wanted to be fully invested in. As you can appreciate, 439 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 1: when you put all this work into researching and writing 440 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:13,479 Speaker 1: and editing a book, you want to give it your 441 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,639 Speaker 1: role when it's out in the world. And then I 442 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 1: was still doing my individual thought leadership work, which is 443 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:21,880 Speaker 1: the keynote speaking and the podcasting and the writing and 444 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: all that. And so because nothing gave, I did sit 445 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: down and think what am I going to say no to? 446 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: But it wasn't enough because all the things that I 447 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: was saying yes to, I thought it'll be fine. I'll 448 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:37,640 Speaker 1: just be hyper productive and I'm good at that. It 449 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,640 Speaker 1: turns out not so much. I had a big think about, Okay, 450 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 1: what are the new rituals and rules that I'm going 451 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 1: to have for myself. And I'm getting back into just 452 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: not checking digital communication before I've at least done a 453 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: couple of hours of deep work. So I was just 454 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: getting into really bad habits of when I get out 455 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: of bed. I had Microsoft Teams and I had email 456 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: outlook on my phone, and they would get checked before 457 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 1: anything else happened workwise, which is something I advise against 458 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: because it just sets you up to be reactive, So 459 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,199 Speaker 1: I've just deleted those apps from my phone. As I 460 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 1: know you believe will power is overrated, So let's just 461 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,400 Speaker 1: set up the systems in the environment so that it's 462 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: easy to have those good habits. I'm also giving myself 463 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: just a hard stop at five PM as well, which 464 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: I find really hard, and I am also planning for 465 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,360 Speaker 1: longer holidays. It occurred to me when I took these 466 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 1: two weeks off and I was completely off all digital communication. 467 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 1: It was the first two week period that I'd been 468 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:42,160 Speaker 1: completely uncontactable from work in probably years, which is kind 469 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: of scary. What about you on that macro level. 470 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is interesting in two ways. The first 471 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 3: one is that we know better when it comes to technology. 472 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,640 Speaker 3: No one in their right mind waits till their phone 473 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 3: battery is at one percent before they plug it in. 474 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 3: They're start charging it when it begins to look depleted, 475 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 3: and I think I'll be We need to do the 476 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 3: same thing with our bodies and our brains, but we 477 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,919 Speaker 3: forget that that's necessary because we're not walking around with 478 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:07,640 Speaker 3: a battery meter. 479 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:09,679 Speaker 2: We did a podcast episode last. 480 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 3: Year on work Life about the science of recharging on 481 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 3: weekends and vacations. And one of the things I learned 482 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,680 Speaker 3: through reviewing the latest evidence and talking with a series 483 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 3: of experts is it's more restorative to have more frequent, 484 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,919 Speaker 3: short vacations than it is to have longer ones that 485 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,399 Speaker 3: are less frequent. So if you had a choice between 486 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 3: one week vacation every month or a two week holiday 487 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 3: every other month, the first option is better than the second. 488 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 3: So I've tried to adopt that and say, okay, you know, 489 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 3: why not take the advice to treat our weekends as 490 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 3: many vacations. This is something that our mutual colleague, reb 491 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 3: Rebelly first introduced me to. He said, look, you know, 492 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,440 Speaker 3: very few people have the luxury of going on holiday 493 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,400 Speaker 3: every week. Most people can't get the time off from work, 494 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,119 Speaker 3: most people can't afford it. But you do have this 495 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 3: thing called a weekend. And if you treat your weekend 496 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 3: like a holiday. Instead of saying, Okay, I'm going to 497 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 3: spend Saturday catching up on all the work that I 498 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,639 Speaker 3: didn't finish, and then Sunday I'm just going to sleep 499 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,120 Speaker 3: because I was so tired, and then the whole thing 500 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 3: starts over again, that's not going to. 501 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 2: Work that well. 502 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 3: So I love this idea of weekends as vacations, and 503 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:22,919 Speaker 3: we've been doing more of that as a family. 504 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: It's so funny because I am very aware of this research, 505 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 1: and I was actually working on a project where I 506 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: was reacquainting myself with this research literally a few weeks ago. 507 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 1: And if I think about the last couple of years, 508 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:38,439 Speaker 1: I'm really good at the mini break. My partner and 509 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,399 Speaker 1: I are really good at going, Okay, every eight weeks, 510 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,440 Speaker 1: we're going to do a mini weekend away somewhere, typically 511 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 1: in regional Victoria, and we'll take a couple of days 512 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: off work. So it's a four day time off period. 513 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 1: And so that's what I've been doing. And I hadn't 514 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,479 Speaker 1: been taking those long breaks because I've read that research 515 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 1: and I listened to it. But sometimes you know, you 516 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 1: do read research and go that just pride it and 517 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,919 Speaker 1: doesn't gell. But do you all say take longer breaks 518 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: at them? 519 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 3: Well, first of all, Amantha, what I love about what 520 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 3: you just said is that, I mean, you just responded 521 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 3: exactly like a great organizational psychologist would and should. I 522 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,439 Speaker 3: have encountered too many people who read the research that 523 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 3: conflicts with their experience and say, well, the evidence is wrong, 524 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 3: and what you said was not that you said. I 525 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 3: might be an outlier, and I do think that's a 526 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,679 Speaker 3: healthy way to respond to data. So the first thing 527 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:31,880 Speaker 3: I would wonder about is what are you doing during 528 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:33,959 Speaker 3: your holidays and are you actually spending those in an 529 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 3: effective way? We could think about that through all sorts 530 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 3: of different lenses. One of my favorite findings that I 531 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 3: stumbled across recently is this growing body of evidence that 532 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,399 Speaker 3: although most of us have said, well, being in nature 533 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 3: is really what recharges us, and you want to be 534 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 3: in a green space if you can around a forest 535 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,440 Speaker 3: or grass or trees, blue spaces. 536 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 2: Are even better. 537 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 3: That water is more relaxing, and especially wide bodies of water, oceans, 538 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,919 Speaker 3: big lakes, rivers, they bring extra tranquility. And there's a 539 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,920 Speaker 3: huge commount of speculation about why that is and whether 540 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 3: we've evolved to experience this sort of relief when we're 541 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 3: near water, because prehistorically we would have dehydrated if we 542 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 3: couldn't get to water. But I think there's something to 543 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 3: be said for Okay, are you doing enough beach vacation? 544 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 3: So are you spending enough time by the pool? As 545 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 3: just as one small example, right, So i'd want to 546 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,200 Speaker 3: break down how are you spending those holidays. I'd also 547 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 3: want to look at what are you doing over the 548 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 3: course of your work weeks that is pushing you to 549 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 3: need that long to recover. Are you draining your battery 550 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 3: to the very bottom? Maybe that's another cause here. So 551 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,879 Speaker 3: how much do you think this is your personality versus 552 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,400 Speaker 3: how much do you think it's the habits you've adopted 553 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 3: for both your work and your holidays. 554 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: What what happened this year is that typically I've got 555 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: good habits. I've got good habits around how I work, 556 00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: around productivity, and around health, and I also feel incredibly 557 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,679 Speaker 1: guilty when I don't stick to those habits because I 558 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 1: hate being someone that writes and talks about things the 559 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 1: classic plumber with the blocked pipes hate. I hate that 560 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 1: so much. And I've really felt that this year where 561 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 1: a lot of the things that I talk and write 562 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 1: about I've been doing the opposite and that's made me 563 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 1: feel terrible, which is probably contributed to the problem. And 564 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: so I feel like, normally my habits are good. And 565 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 1: what I've also felt is that this two week circuit 566 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,880 Speaker 1: breaker almost, which I think is what you get when 567 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 1: you take more than a week of leave, I was 568 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: completely in nature. I was also spending really great time 569 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 1: with my daughter as well, and just really just hyper 570 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: present in a way that I hadn't been for months. 571 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 1: And I think now that I'm back, I've got habits 572 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: that I can now put in place, and I'm not 573 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: dragged back by these really unhealthy and unproductive habits that 574 00:28:58,360 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: I had in the first half of the year. 575 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 2: That's interesting. 576 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 3: That makes me think of Wendy Wood's research on habit 577 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 3: formation and change and the myth that it takes a 578 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 3: month to change a habit. And I got such a 579 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 3: kick out of Wendy's finding that depending on the person 580 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 3: and the habit and the approach they take, it could 581 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 3: take many months, or it could take a day, and 582 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 3: it could be anything in between, and there's huge variation there. 583 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 3: And I think what you're highlighting that builds on that 584 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 3: is that the first step toward changing a habit is 585 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 3: to become aware of it. 586 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 2: It's hard to pack. 587 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 3: Into a week, which is something that one of our 588 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 3: star doctoral students, Marissa Schandell, highlighted for me. Marissa said, 589 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 3: everybody thinks about vacation as unplugging, but you also have 590 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 3: to think about it as plugging into sources of meaning 591 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 3: and joy. And that was such a powerful statement for 592 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 3: me because I'm not a detaching person like that sounds 593 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 3: like boredom to me. But the idea that I could 594 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 3: connect to different things that fire me up, that give 595 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 3: me purpose, or some level of joy that's exciting, and 596 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 3: that's something I could look forward to. And so it 597 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 3: sounds to me like you have too pronged approach, which 598 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 3: is the first part of the holiday is you're decompressing, 599 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 3: and then the second part is you're getting quality time 600 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 3: with people you care about. 601 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: One percent. I would love to know what haven't we 602 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:23,959 Speaker 1: talked about about burnout that you think that you've come 603 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: across in research or that you've experienced for yourself, that 604 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 1: you think, if people listening can relate to feelings of 605 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: burnout or just exhaustion at work, what should they be 606 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: doing well. 607 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 3: I think we've we've talked a bunch about individual changes, 608 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 3: but we have to also recognize that a lot of 609 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 3: burnout is organizational. If you're in a team or in 610 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 3: a job where you're not the only one who's feeling burnout, 611 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 3: guess what, that is not a problem in your head 612 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 3: it's a problem in your circumstances, and that means that 613 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 3: there's an opportunity for rethinking roles and redesigning jobs to 614 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 3: try to reduce demands or over load or conflict or ambiguity. 615 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 3: It means there's a chance to think about we may 616 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 3: not be able to eliminate all the stressors in our jobs, 617 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 3: but we can try to gain more control over them. 618 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 3: We can get more choices about what we do when 619 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 3: and who we do it with. And it especially means 620 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 3: we can think about how to provide people with support. 621 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 3: And I keep coming back to something I learned about 622 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 3: during COVID, which was a manager who said to a team, look, 623 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 3: it's okay to call in sick. It's also okay to 624 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 3: call in sad. And I thought that was compelling way 625 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 3: to frame this that, yeah, of course you would take 626 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 3: time off if you got the flu or if you 627 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 3: sprained your ankle. Well, guess what, if you're feeling burned out, 628 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 3: we want you to prioritize mental health same way you 629 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 3: would physical health. And I think it's good for managers 630 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 3: to obviously to say it, but what ultimately matters is 631 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 3: whether they walk the talk. So one of the things 632 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 3: I've been encouraging leaders and managers do is to make 633 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 3: it clear to their teams, I'm going to be taking 634 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 3: a recharge week, I'm going to be taking a mental 635 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 3: health day and normalize that behavior. And what that does 636 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 3: is it gives people across the organization the support they need, 637 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 3: the permission they need to prioritize their own well being. 638 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 3: And I don't think we can underscore that enough. 639 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: It's funny, I've heard that advice before, and I was 640 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 1: thinking about that a lot, like in the few weeks 641 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 1: leading up to my holiday, and I just felt like 642 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 1: I so desperately needed to take a sad day or 643 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 1: a recharge day, and I reckon, I've rebably spent hours 644 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: thinking about that in the back of my head. Could 645 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 1: I take it? How would I frame that? And I 646 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: ended up discroing, you just need to push through because 647 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 1: right now, like you're the leader and people need to 648 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 1: have confidence in you. Absolutely there's a place for vulnerability, 649 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 1: but I also don't want to compromise the confidence that 650 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: people have. Even though I've pushed through all this change, 651 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 1: I'm okay. I didn't want the team worrying about me, 652 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: and I was really worried about the signal that would 653 00:32:58,160 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 1: stand at that moment. 654 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 3: I think that that's a really common challenge for leaders, 655 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 3: and I think it's a totally reasonable concern to have. 656 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 2: For me. 657 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 3: What matters here is how you delivered the message, not 658 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 3: when you deliver it. So the danger of waiting until 659 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 3: after you've recovered is that it might take longer to recover. 660 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 3: And also you might be perpetuating the burnout of your 661 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 3: team right because you haven't given them the leeway to 662 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 3: do what they need to do to maximize or maintain 663 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 3: their energy. So what I would wonder is, of course, 664 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 3: you don't want to go in and say, hey, I'm 665 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 3: really sorry to let you all know this, but I'm 666 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 3: completely burned out. I have no energy, I haven't had 667 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 3: an original thought in months on the verge of quitting, 668 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 3: and I hope you all can you just cover for 669 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 3: me while I disappear for an unlimited amount of time. 670 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 2: You would not do that. 671 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 3: What you might do is say, I don't know if 672 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 3: you've noticed, but I've been picking up on a little 673 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 3: bit of a dip in my energy. And as somebody 674 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 3: who writes and speaks and teaches on this topic, it's 675 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 3: really important to me to pay attention to those signals 676 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 3: and also to model the very things that I'm trying 677 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 3: to educate around. And so I'm gonna you know, I'm 678 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 3: gonna be taking a few days just to recharge. Nothing 679 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 3: to worry about, but I want you to have, you know, 680 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,880 Speaker 3: the freshest, most enthusiastic version of me. And I also 681 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 3: want you all to know that when you're in that zone, 682 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,359 Speaker 3: this is what I expect of you. Do I doubt 683 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,879 Speaker 3: your confidence if you say that, No, I actually have 684 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,840 Speaker 3: more faith that you're telling me the truth. 685 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 1: Adam. I'm going to transcribe this interview and I'm going 686 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 1: to just sniff out that little beat and I'm going 687 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,319 Speaker 1: to put it in a note, and next time I'm 688 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,359 Speaker 1: feeling exhausted, that is what I'm going to say to 689 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,360 Speaker 1: my team. That's gold. 690 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 3: I'm watching a growing number of leaders who I would 691 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 3: consider to be on the enlightened end of the emotional 692 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,319 Speaker 3: intelligence spectrum say we're going to do just a pulse 693 00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 3: check once a week. And as a leader, it's my 694 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 3: job ask my team how's my energy? Because I don't 695 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 3: always notice it, and even when I think I'm in 696 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 3: a good place, I don't always know the impact I 697 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:11,960 Speaker 3: have on others, and so getting a little bit of 698 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 3: that quick feedback. If a bunch of people tell me 699 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 3: that I'm dragging or I seem exhausted, that's helpful information 700 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 3: for me. And then guess what, It's not coming from me, 701 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 3: It's coming from my team. 702 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:25,760 Speaker 1: How do they do that energy check out of interest? 703 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,759 Speaker 1: Is that? Is that a survey? Is that a synchronous discussion? 704 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 3: I think it depends on the psychological safety in the team. 705 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 3: I think when in teams that have strong norms of 706 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 3: candor and honesty, where a lot of trust has been developed. 707 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 3: I've seen it done as just a okay, let's go 708 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:45,440 Speaker 3: around the room, quick energy check zero to ten, how 709 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,800 Speaker 3: is my energy today or how is my energy this week? 710 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:51,919 Speaker 3: And if the leader asks first, sometimes you know other 711 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 3: people will will pose the question. Sometimes it's just feedback 712 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 3: for the leader saying, look, my job is to energize 713 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 3: the room, not to enervate or exhaust room, and so 714 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,600 Speaker 3: I just want that feedback, and then people may choose 715 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 3: to have that conversation with each other in pairs or 716 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 3: in smaller groups. I think when psychological safety is lower, 717 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 3: I've seen it done very much as a pul survey 718 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 3: where there's a daily or a weekly or a monthly, 719 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,360 Speaker 3: kind of the same way that a lot of companies 720 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,920 Speaker 3: do quarterly or annual engagement surveys. 721 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,359 Speaker 1: I wish we'd had this chat a few months ago 722 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: before I'd hit burnout. I personally found it so useful. 723 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 1: It has been brilliant just to hear your thoughts on 724 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:34,279 Speaker 1: burnout in holidays, and I'm hoping that for the second 725 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 1: half of the year I can be back to being 726 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:41,319 Speaker 1: energetic and enthusiastic and not get anywhere near burnt out. 727 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: So thank you so much for your time well. 728 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,760 Speaker 3: As always thank you for having me in for both 729 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 3: the thoughtful questions and also the generative stories which always 730 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,200 Speaker 3: make me think. I do think your team is going 731 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:55,920 Speaker 3: to hold you accountable now, like you've gone public with 732 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 3: the fact that you burned out. You've admitted that you 733 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 3: felt like you we're a hypocrite, so obviously no one 734 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:02,839 Speaker 3: can let you do that. 735 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,400 Speaker 1: Again, which I think is a good thing. I hope 736 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,839 Speaker 1: you liked my chat with Adam about burnout, and if 737 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 1: you know someone who might be in need of hearing 738 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 1: these strategies to help cope with stress and burnout, please 739 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,760 Speaker 1: share this episode with them by clicking on the share 740 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,640 Speaker 1: icon wherever you listen to this podcast from To find 741 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 1: out more about Adam hop onto Adamgrant dot net and 742 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,680 Speaker 1: his latest book, Hidden Potential, is out nowt wherever you 743 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,360 Speaker 1: buy books. If you like Today's Joe, make sure you 744 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 1: hit follow on your podcast app to be alerted when 745 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,880 Speaker 1: new episodes drop. How I Work was recorded on the 746 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,680 Speaker 1: traditional land of the Warrenery people, part of the kuol 747 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 1: And Nation. A big thank you to my editor Rowena 748 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 1: Murray and Martin Nimmer for doing the sound mix.