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Speaker 1: It's their Happy Family's podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: once answers.

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Speaker 1: Now, the ADHD experience is increasingly common and most people

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Speaker 1: who are either going through it themselves or dealing with

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Speaker 1: children who are.

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Speaker 3: Diagnosed to finding it very very challenging. Hello, my name's

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Speaker 3: doctor Justin Colson. Welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. Today,

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Speaker 3: my guest is Jane McFadden, a former psychologist. After studying

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Speaker 3: psychology and starting out working as a psych Jane decided

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Speaker 3: to forge her own path. She wrote the first online

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Speaker 3: psychology program for veterans with PTSD in twenty nineteen, and

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Speaker 3: her business has grown to the largest psychology company in

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Speaker 3: Australia in twenty twenty four. Jane continued, though, to battle burnout,

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Speaker 3: stress and anxiety until she received an unexpected shock diagnosis

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Speaker 3: of ADHD in twenty twenty two, and all of a

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Speaker 3: sudden everything made sense, answered all the questions that she

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Speaker 3: had about what was going on with her, and ignited

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Speaker 3: her passion to help other women and girls avoid being

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Speaker 3: misdiagnosed and wrongly medicated. Jane found ADHD medication life changing. However,

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Speaker 3: this medication unveiled autistic traits that led to be diagnosed

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Speaker 3: with autism in twenty twenty four earlier this year. Currently,

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Speaker 3: Jane is studying a master's in child and adolescent psychology

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Speaker 3: to further understand your adversity, and began a podcast called

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Speaker 3: ADHD Mums last year, which hit number two in Australia

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Speaker 3: in just a year. Now, Jane works as a speaker,

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Speaker 3: an author of neuroscientists and neurodiversity specialist. She lives on

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Speaker 3: the Sunshine Coast just down the road from me actually,

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Speaker 3: with a husband and three kids who all also are neurodiverse,

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Speaker 3: and Jane joins me on the podcast today. Hey Jane,

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Speaker 3: thanks so much for being here to talk ADHD, ADHD Mums,

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Speaker 3: ADHD Families and your ADHD experience. Really appreciate you being here.

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Speaker 2: Oh, thank you for having me justin. It's always been

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Speaker 2: a dream to come on here. I was actually one

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Speaker 2: of the first members of the Happy Family membership back

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Speaker 2: years ago. I was in the first five.

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Speaker 3: That is that's really really great. I'm so glad that

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Speaker 3: we're going to have this conversation and I'm really delighted

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Speaker 3: that Happy Families has been a part of your life.

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Speaker 3: Tell me when it comes to neardiversity lived experience actually

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Speaker 3: having the diagnosis, having kids with diagnoses, What does that

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Speaker 3: feel like in a family of five where everyone ticks

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Speaker 3: at least one of those boxes?

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Speaker 2: Well, you know what. To be honest, I didn't realize

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Speaker 2: it wasn't normal. And obviously normal as Air quoted, what's normal, Sure,

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Speaker 2: but my experience of the world was that that was

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Speaker 2: normal behavior. So we always arrived in chaos, but it

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Speaker 2: was always exciting and fun, and I didn't realize until

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Speaker 2: my kids got a little bit older that there was

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Speaker 2: an issue. What really broke the camel's back for me

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Speaker 2: was I was running two different businesses and my eldest

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Speaker 2: child who had just hit prep and we all know

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Speaker 2: when you have your oldest child hit prep, it's like

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Speaker 2: nothing other. It's the uniform and you've got to be

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Speaker 2: there on time and you have to have all the things.

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Speaker 2: And it was the first time I was standing around

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Speaker 2: with all the other mums that I thought, ooh, I'm

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Speaker 2: actually way off. Like I've always been a bit different.

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Speaker 2: I've always been a bit march, but I've always made

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Speaker 2: it work. And I really couldn't make that prep experience work.

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Speaker 2: And so that was when I was like actually this

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Speaker 2: is something beyond me.

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Speaker 3: What's fascinating to me is you've got a psych degree,

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Speaker 3: you've practiced as a psychologist, and you missed it. And

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Speaker 3: this is a story that I hear all the time.

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Speaker 3: We just kind of this is how I live, this

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Speaker 3: is who I am. My life philosophy has always been

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Speaker 3: bite off more than you can chew and make it

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Speaker 3: up as you go along, and that kind of fits

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Speaker 3: with that same kind of vibe. Right, this is just

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Speaker 3: who I am, This is just what I do. And

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Speaker 3: then somebody says, are you aware? What was it other

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Speaker 3: than the fact that your preppy was struggling and your

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Speaker 3: family did not feel like everyone else's as you were observing,

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Speaker 3: was that the only thing that sort of set alarm

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Speaker 3: bells off for you? And when did you that it

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Speaker 3: was actually you?

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Speaker 2: This is a funny one, actually. So I was running

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Speaker 2: to massive companies like massive, right, I had three kids

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Speaker 2: under five, and I was having all the success in

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Speaker 2: the world, career rise, financial success, career success, and I

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Speaker 2: was getting all the accolades, which I've always received a

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Speaker 2: lot of positive feedback for my ADHD traits. So again

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Speaker 2: I just thought I was a go.

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Speaker 3: Get up and can I just jump in here on this, Jane,

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Speaker 3: because the whole idea of ADHD is it has to

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Speaker 3: interfere with functioning right. Otherwise you don't worry about the diagnosis.

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Speaker 3: If you can learn how to take those traits and

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Speaker 3: use them in adaptive ways, then you don't get a diagnosis.

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Speaker 3: You just a really high achiev or a go getty.

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Speaker 3: You're a type an I can conquer the world, do

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Speaker 3: everything kind of person.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, And so the feedback and the image I was

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Speaker 2: putting on at the pickup was just this probably I

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Speaker 2: feel weird saying it, but probably a really great person

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Speaker 2: who seemed like she had it all together and seemed

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Speaker 2: very success. The issue was that all the little things

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Speaker 2: were the problem. I didn't have the seesaw login, I

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Speaker 2: couldn't do the homework, I couldn't get her there on time.

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Speaker 2: I never could figure out the uniform. And it was

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Speaker 2: all the small things which I usually avoid. So I

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Speaker 2: just get other people to do them, right, like staff.

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Speaker 2: You get staff to do all that. But when it's

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Speaker 2: my child, I realized I actually cannot do this, Like

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Speaker 2: this is a problem for me.

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Speaker 3: Time to get a nanny.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I dull my hands on my hands on mom,

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Speaker 2: that's not the definition totally with you, totally with you.

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Speaker 2: But yes, a few people did say to me to

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Speaker 2: just go and get a nanny. I'm like, that's yeah,

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Speaker 2: but I have to learn, right, it's my oldest kid.

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Speaker 2: I've got three. So in the background, I was having

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Speaker 2: this huge battle with burnout unsurprisingly right, and I was also,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to admit it, putting a lot of pressure

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Speaker 2: back on my husband because I would bite off more

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Speaker 2: than I can true, and then I would look to

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Speaker 2: him to support, like, well, where are you what are

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Speaker 2: you doing? And I did really have an expectation that

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Speaker 2: he was going to pick up the pieces and he

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Speaker 2: wasn't doing that because, in fairness to him, these were

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Speaker 2: my choices I were making. And he's like, I'm not

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Speaker 2: even in this thing. You know, you're the one who

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Speaker 2: stiff started to start a second company. And so we

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Speaker 2: went off to marriage counseling, and we went off to

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Speaker 2: marriage counseling. In my take on it was he needs

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Speaker 2: to he needs to put in, he needs to do

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Speaker 2: a bit more, you know. And anyway, we did marriage

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Speaker 2: counseling for a little while with a brilliant psychologist, and

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Speaker 2: I was really kind of expecting that he would say

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Speaker 2: to my husband, Hey, you know, maybe you could jump

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Speaker 2: in a little bit more. And I was really blown

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Speaker 2: away when he wanted to pull me in for individual

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Speaker 2: because I was like, well, I'm not the problem, Like

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Speaker 2: I've brought him in, he's the problem. And he really

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Speaker 2: zoned in on me and said I think you need

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Speaker 2: to do some individuals and I was like like, why,

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Speaker 2: Look how great I am. And turns out he had

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Speaker 2: worked in an assessment clinic in Kobucher and after maybe

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Speaker 2: another three or four sessions one on one, he said

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Speaker 2: to me, have you considered that you might have ADHD?

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Speaker 2: And I said, my brother has that. Actually I definitely don't.

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Speaker 2: And I was actually extremely offended because I had it

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Speaker 2: in my mind that was unsuccessful people that couldn't achieve tasks.

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Speaker 2: That's what I had in my mind, and I had

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Speaker 2: no concept that it could be different. We went through

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Speaker 2: the assessment criteria and I was saying him every step

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Speaker 2: of the way, no, I know exactly where to be.

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Speaker 2: I know exactly where to be. As I'm saying, I

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Speaker 2: know exactly where to be, and on what day I've

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Speaker 2: got it all down. I never missed anything. I have

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Speaker 2: two phones on the table that are just alarming reminders

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Speaker 2: and this complex system. And he's like, do you know

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Speaker 2: what masking and camouflaging is? Because you are off charts

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Speaker 2: with some of your basically your scaffolding it you're doing

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Speaker 2: to mask all your symptoms. So he put my phone away.

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Speaker 3: Just for people who are not familiar with the term

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Speaker 3: masking and camouflaging scaffolding, can you step us through that,

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Speaker 3: and then we'll go back to the story.

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Speaker 2: Masking and camouflage with something I only learned of the psychologist.

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Speaker 2: So basically, it's things that you put into place for

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Speaker 2: yourself to mask your symptoms or cover them up so

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Speaker 2: you make it look like you've know exactly what's going on.

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Speaker 2: But underneath the hood there are so many complex systems.

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Speaker 2: For example, I cannot ever remember to return something to

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Speaker 2: somebody that I've borrowed, but I never want to give

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Speaker 2: the impression that once it comes into my house I

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Speaker 2: never return it, So I'll put it on the car

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Speaker 2: so then I can't forget it, or I'll put my

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Speaker 2: keys on top of something. I'll have lots of complex

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Speaker 2: systems so I look ahead.

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Speaker 3: It's like a compensatory behavior so that you look and

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Speaker 3: the brilliance about it. I mean, some people would say, well,

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Speaker 3: isn't that just effective planning. Isn't that just making sure

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Speaker 3: that you know yourself well enough to know that you

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Speaker 3: have a certain weakness, and therefore you plan ahead to

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Speaker 3: make sure that weakness doesn't undermine your ability to function well.

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Speaker 3: When we move into things like autism, masking becomes a

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Speaker 3: little bit more complex, doesn't it. Because you've got kids

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Speaker 3: who will cover up their psychological distress with smiles and

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Speaker 3: with happiness, and then they get home and they absolutely

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Speaker 3: collapse and fall apart. And say, with ADHD kids, there's

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Speaker 3: that level of masking where it's not just a behavioral thing,

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Speaker 3: but it's a psychological thing as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And that was one of the things that

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Speaker 2: I think was difficult for me as well, walking into

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Speaker 2: prep and having to stand there with all the other

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Speaker 2: moms morning and afternoon, and everyone else seemed to enjoy it,

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Speaker 2: and I enjoyed it sometimes, but most of the time

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Speaker 2: I just dreaded it. I actually dreaded it. And these

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Speaker 2: people are lovely, some of them must kill my friends.

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Speaker 2: This is not about them being judgy, This is just

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Speaker 2: about being I don't actually have a capacity to put

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Speaker 2: on this together front twice a day. Sometimes I can't

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Speaker 2: do it, and I would actually beg my husband to

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Speaker 2: go for me, and he'd be like, why the people

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Speaker 2: are great. It's like they are great, but I can't

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Speaker 2: do it today. I can't. I just and it was like,

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Speaker 2: this is a logical response. I can't do that today,

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Speaker 2: I just can't.

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Speaker 3: Jane, take me back into the office again with the psychologist.

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Speaker 3: You've been told that you're masking. You've been told that

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Speaker 3: you're doing all of these compensatory behaviors to make it

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Speaker 3: look like you've got it together, when really you're just

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Speaker 3: you're the proverbial duck looking calm on the top and

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Speaker 3: paddling like crazy out of the water. What happens Then

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Speaker 3: you're angry, you're upset. You think that he's kidding, but

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Speaker 3: there's there's a little alarm bell going off in your

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Speaker 3: head saying I think the sight's onto something.

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Speaker 2: One of the things that I think is really interesting

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Speaker 2: is when parents say they don't want to diagnose a

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Speaker 2: child because you know, they want to label them or

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Speaker 2: hold them back, or you know, like kind of like

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Speaker 2: paint them with a brush of you know, ADHD or something.

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Speaker 2: But for me, when I agreed with him and I

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Speaker 2: could see what he was saying, I felt an enormous

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Speaker 2: relief because I had always wondered, what's wrong with me?

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Speaker 2: Why am I so different? Why do I move states

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Speaker 2: every six months? Why do I go to balley without

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Speaker 2: anything to return? Why do I make these crazy decisions?

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Speaker 2: Why do I open up Airbnb's and get these big ideas?

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Speaker 2: And when he actually pointed it out to me, I

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Speaker 2: was so relieved because I had been diagnosed with all

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Speaker 2: kinds of things over the last twenty five years. I

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Speaker 2: started a mental health battle when I was fourteen, and

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Speaker 2: it has been up and down the whole time. So

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Speaker 2: when he said that to me, I rang my best

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Speaker 2: friend and her husband has ADHD and it has always

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Speaker 2: had ADHD, so since he was a child. And she

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Speaker 2: said to me, oh my god, that makes so much

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Speaker 2: sense because it was an answer for once, and there

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Speaker 2: was hope, there was medication. It wasn't. I was on

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Speaker 2: this just like kind of like mouse wheel, you know,

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Speaker 2: where just where you're going around and around around, doing

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Speaker 2: the same thing over and over, attempting to have boundaries,

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Speaker 2: not being able to do any of the therapeutic strategies

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Speaker 2: as psychologists tells you to do, not be able to

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Speaker 2: ever figure out the executive function, and it felt like

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Speaker 2: hope for the first time.

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Speaker 3: Jane, let me ask you when a parent and you

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Speaker 3: run a podcast and an Instagram and Facebook page called

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Speaker 3: ADHD Mums. When a mum or a parent doesn't get

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Speaker 3: the help that they need, if they don't have the diagnosis,

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Speaker 3: if they don't see the reality that's right in front

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Speaker 3: of them, I guess that they're living with What are

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Speaker 3: the consequences of that?

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Speaker 2: Well, for me, I haven't met anybody, and as I said,

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Speaker 2: I run a very popular podcast. I haven't seen heard

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Speaker 2: or received a message from one person that said that

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Speaker 2: they wished they didn't know, They wish their parents hadn't

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Speaker 2: told them. I've never ever seen that. And I think

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Speaker 2: if you don't want to label your child with anything

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Speaker 2: with any kind of diagnosis, they will know anyway, and

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Speaker 2: they will label themselves. And trust me, the label that

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Speaker 2: they give themselves will be worse than an actual label

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Speaker 2: with a diagnosis. For example, I'm not good enough, I'm stupid.

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Speaker 2: I need to focus more the problem as well. If

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Speaker 2: they're masking all camouflaging sympto old traits. For example, let's

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Speaker 2: say you've got a child that won't put on their shoes. Now,

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Speaker 2: my daughter in prep spent ninety minutes putting on her

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Speaker 2: shoes nine zero and I had no idea there was

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Speaker 2: anything going on. So I'm just going put your shoes on.

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Speaker 2: Why is it so hard telling her there was no issue.

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Speaker 2: It was only after she was diagnosed and I realized

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Speaker 2: and I took the time to sit with her and said,

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Speaker 2: what is it about your shoes, like, explain it to me,

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Speaker 2: like I want to know. And she said, to me,

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Speaker 2: it feels like glass. It feels like hurting me. It

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Speaker 2: feels like I've got splinters. It's hurting me. I can't

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Speaker 2: stop thinking about it. It makes me cry. And when

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Speaker 2: she broke it down, I thought, oh my god, I

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Speaker 2: can't even imagine. I actually felt terrible for just ignoring

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Speaker 2: her and actually a major sensory issue that she has,

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Speaker 2: which I should have got the jetproof socks. I should

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Speaker 2: have got more help with this stuff, but I didn't know.

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Speaker 2: So I think the connection with my kids has absolutely

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Speaker 2: changed since we have all become diagnosed and given therapy.

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Speaker 2: And it's not about medication necessary, it's about understanding and connection,

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Speaker 2: which is why I continue to follow your podcast even

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Speaker 2: when we were all diagnoance Justin, because connection first is

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Speaker 2: exactly the same for any child that's near at aversal

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Speaker 2: not it's still the first point for me.

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Speaker 3: Jane McFadden is a form of psychologist and neuroscientist. She

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Speaker 3: is a mum of three and she runs the Facebook

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Speaker 3: page and Instagram page ADHD Mums as well as the

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Speaker 3: podcast ADHD Mums. You can find out more about her there. Jane,

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Speaker 3: thanks so much for chatting. Great to hear about your

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Speaker 3: story and to I'm sure that there are so many

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Speaker 3: mums who have got either ADHD kids or have their

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Speaker 3: own lived experience of ADHD themselves who are listening to

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Speaker 3: this going Yep, this is exactly what I needed to hear.

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Speaker 3: This is reassuring, this is comforting, This is kind of

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Speaker 3: my story. So appreciate you taking time out to have

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Speaker 3: a chat.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me Justin.

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Speaker 3: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Rulan for

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Speaker 3: Bridge Media. If you'd like more information about making your

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Speaker 3: family happier, check out Happy Families dot com dot au

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Speaker 3: and have a look at our new membership. We've revamped it,

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Speaker 3: We've revitalized it with additional new resources for not just you,

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Speaker 3: but your kids felt fostering emotional learning together is all

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Speaker 3: part of a new Happy Families membership online now at

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Speaker 3: happy families dot com dot au