1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,480 Speaker 1: Will do to speak to our next guest about Australia's 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 1: relationship with the US and talk more about the Chief 3 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: Minister's trip to the US in the next couple of weeks. 4 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:11,040 Speaker 1: But joining me on the line right now is John Coyn, 5 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: the head of the Australian Strategic Policy Unit. Good morning to. 6 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 2: You, John, Morning Katy. 7 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,279 Speaker 1: John, I really appreciate your time this morning, and I 8 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 1: will talk to you more about that relationship with the 9 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 1: US in a moment. But John, what was your reaction 10 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: to the terrible news that we saw starting to unfold 11 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: yesterday with the crash on the Tiwei Islands killing three 12 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 1: Marines and injuring five. 13 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 2: Look, I've just come back from Hawaii, visiting on holidays 14 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 2: and visiting several of my previous more college students across there, 15 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:48,160 Speaker 2: which is the US Marine and as the next serving 16 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 2: Australian Army soldier. You know, if the first thing that 17 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 2: always comes to minds of these things is the tragedy 18 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 2: of it, both of the people who are injured and 19 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 2: have lost their life, but more specifically their families and 20 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 2: for those around them, it's just a really tough time. 21 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 2: So for me always these sorts of events are about 22 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 2: it's about tragedy at loss. 23 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: And John, you spot on and I guess you know. 24 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 1: We'd spoken to the Chief Minister here in the Northern 25 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: Territory a little earlier this morning and she also touched 26 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 1: upon the fact that we have the Marines that rotate 27 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: here to the Northern Territory and when they're here, they 28 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: do indeed become part of the community. 29 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 2: Look, they see themselves as part of the community. Now 30 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 2: this is separate. You know, you and I have talked 31 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 2: before about that. The whole issue of deterrence and forward 32 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,320 Speaker 2: deployments and those sorts of things. Set aside the politics 33 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 2: for a moment for the individual who come. You know, 34 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:46,479 Speaker 2: every time I visit the Marines up there when they're 35 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 2: through their rotations, the message is really consistent. There's a 36 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 2: professional scivice they love training in Northern Australia, and then 37 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 2: there's the other part, which is they love being there. 38 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, they truly do, now, John, I know, just weeks 39 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 1: ago we also saw an Australian Army helicopter that crashed 40 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: off Queenslands with Sunday Islands, killing those on board. These 41 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: exercises are indeed intended to simulate wartime scenarios. But are 42 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: we seeing them become more dangerous. I know that there 43 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: is still a full investigation into the crash that happened yesterday, 44 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: so I want to be really cautious of that. But 45 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 1: are we seeing sort of a change in the way 46 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: in which some of these exercises are being conducted? 47 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 2: Look, I don't think so. What people have always got 48 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:33,239 Speaker 2: to remember is, you know, when you're talking about conducting 49 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 2: military exercises, you're not talking about landing in a three 50 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 2: eighty on a long runway in perfect conditions. What you're 51 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 2: talking about is deploying small numbers on short notice of 52 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 2: aircraft through the air, undertaking maneuvers, you know, things like 53 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 2: flying at the height of tree tops, landing at night 54 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 2: in a variety of different weather and terrain. These are 55 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 2: really pushing the edges of these capabilities. And that's that's 56 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 2: the nature of military training. 57 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 1: It is. And and you know, I suppose there will 58 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: still be some asking the question this morning, do we 59 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: need to do more to try and keep those personnel safe? 60 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 2: Well, this is always the case. You know, there's a 61 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 2: there's a reflexive moment whenever there's a tragedy, and you know, 62 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 2: I look back to the Blackhawk disaster in Towns or 63 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 2: when I was serving and I lost a number of friends. 64 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 2: You know, my viewpoint on is this, which is that 65 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:34,399 Speaker 2: we need to be really really careful with taking too 66 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 2: much about the individual incidents. We have a tendency of 67 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 2: wanting to point the finger of blame. You know, was 68 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 2: it the was it the aircraft? Was it the pilot? 69 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 2: Was it? The training? Was it the standard operating procedures? 70 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 2: Those are all part of the investigation. But ultimately we 71 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 2: have to consistently remember it. These exercises were about training soldiers, 72 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 2: sailors and aviators for future conflicts and scenarios, et cetera. 73 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 2: So they need to be appropriately trained and training needs 74 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 2: to be realistic, and you can't reduce the risk down 75 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 2: or mitigate the risk down to zero risk when you're 76 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 2: talking about this sort of training. 77 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: Now, John, you know, we've spoken a little bit this 78 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 1: morning about about you know, the infrastructure, the medical services 79 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: that we've got here in the Northern Territory to support, 80 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 1: you know, to support some of these exercises when they 81 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: are happening and when you see a terrible situation unfold 82 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,280 Speaker 1: like it did yesterday. But as we see, as we 83 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: see exercises increase here in the Northern Territory or as 84 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: we see I guess the US presence in the Northern 85 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: Territory increase, do we here in the Northern Territory need 86 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: to bolster those support services and networks to make sure 87 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: that we're able to really, you know, to hold these 88 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: significant exercises. I know they've been happening for a long time, 89 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: but do we need to be starting to have those 90 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: discussions about out more infrastructure. 91 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 2: Look, the two answers to this. The first one is 92 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 2: also so I guess celebrating that the way that the 93 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 2: incident was handled in terms of the hospital staff and 94 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 2: you know, the initiation of the coded alert, the way 95 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:22,279 Speaker 2: that the way that the Northern Territory government, the federal government, 96 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 2: the ADS, the way the US D O D and 97 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 2: the way the marine is all cooperated together. So that's 98 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 2: that's a sign of things things worked. Okay, so we 99 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 2: should be sort of my viewpoint is always celebrating the 100 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 2: successes of those books of things. You know, as a 101 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 2: policy person, my viewpoint on it, and the second part 102 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 2: of my answer to that is is that I'm never 103 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 2: going to say no to more infrastructure in Northern Australia. 104 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 2: I'm never going to say, know that you know that 105 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 2: we shouldn't have more medical care available in North Australia 106 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:55,919 Speaker 2: so that people in Darwen or people in our springs 107 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 2: have the same access to medical care as anyone else 108 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 2: in it. So I'm always going to give you that answer. 109 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 2: But certainly when these major exercises are undertaken, both the 110 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 2: usdo D and the Australian Defense for the Wider Defense 111 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 2: Organization to extensive planning to make sure that they have 112 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 2: the right medical care, the right medical facilities in place, 113 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 2: be they military or be they working with the local government. 114 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 2: So I guess the answer here is that, of course 115 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 2: we always want more medical facilities and infrastructure in Northern Australia. 116 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 2: If there is indeed an increase in ADF presence, be 117 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 2: that a permanent or rotational, well, whether there's an increase 118 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 2: in US presence, then there needs to be investment in 119 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 2: infrastructure as well. 120 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that point you made as well about you know, 121 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: about them having their own medical assistance as well or 122 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: their own sort of you know, their own support. That's 123 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: something that has been asked by a few of our 124 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: listeners this morning. Can you give us can you sort 125 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:54,280 Speaker 1: of give us a bit of insight when they do 126 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: have these exercises, they do already have that support, but 127 00:06:58,040 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: I guess when you then reach a point where some 128 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: what he needs a theater for example, like we know 129 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: is the case with one of those injured marines today, 130 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: that is when you do require the assistance of our 131 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: department and our hospital that's here. 132 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 2: Look absolutely, and I think this is the thing. There's 133 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 2: always deployed medical teams to support to handle day to 134 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 2: day medical issues and some emergency issues. For the US 135 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 2: Marine Rotational Force in Darwen, there are some activities and 136 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 2: so for instance, if one of the rotations asides they're 137 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 2: going to go and do an exercise in far northern 138 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 2: Western Australia where medical care, high end medical care is 139 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 2: in further away, then they'll bring medical facilities of an 140 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 2: appropriate standard with them and where they can are the 141 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 2: same as the Historian Defense Force, they'll use local facilities 142 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 2: as well well. 143 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: I appreciate that insight, John, because I think for a 144 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: lot of people, you know, we've got a fair idea. 145 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: When you live in a defense place like we do 146 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:00,080 Speaker 1: here in Darwen, you have a bit of an understanding. 147 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: But I always think it's really important to get that background. John, 148 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: can you tell us I know we'd planned to have 149 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: you on this morning to talk about the fact that 150 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 1: the Northern Territories Chief Minister is indeed preparing to head 151 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 1: to Washington, DC in the United States and in bid 152 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: to advance a territory's role with the US Marines in 153 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: Northern Australia. That was the plan of our discussion this morning. 154 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 1: We know the incidents from the weekend of have certainly 155 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: sort of changed our path to some degree, But why 156 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: are those troops and why are talks like this needed 157 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 1: from our chief minister heading to the US. 158 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 2: You know, the simple answer is what we saw occur 159 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 2: over the last several days, which is, you know, when 160 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 2: you're talking about US presidence in Northern Australia, you're not 161 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 2: just talking about federal government responsibilities. You're also talking about 162 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 2: state and territory government. The big thing here is is 163 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:55,319 Speaker 2: that a lot of people are stand and has come 164 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 2: alive to it. Before COVID nineteen. Most people in camb 165 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 2: are in the public service, no doubt, but certainly government 166 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 2: had this feeling that the Federation was becoming less and 167 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 2: less relevant the states and territory power is being sucked 168 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 2: up into the halls of Canberra what COVID nineteen showed 169 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 2: if that wasn't the case. And very similarly, the US 170 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 2: is a federation and their states and territories and local 171 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 2: governments have a huge amount of power and inputs. So 172 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 2: the chief visit really is about getting a better deal 173 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 2: for Northern Australia and making sure that the Northern Territory's 174 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 2: interests are represented. 175 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,319 Speaker 1: Now, John, we know that really when you look at 176 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: defense in the territory and when you look at the 177 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 1: spends that we are anticipating over the coming years, and 178 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: also at the US presence, I mean, how big an 179 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: impact is this going to have for the Northern territory. 180 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 2: Look, I think it's going to have a big impact. 181 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 2: It's going to have a big impact in terms of economics, 182 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 2: and that is not just about dollars coming in. It's 183 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 2: also about planning, you know, how do you go about 184 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 2: making sure that residents that in terms of the building industry, 185 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 2: that the other things like normal infrastructure that the civilian 186 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 2: economy needs is being done at the same time as 187 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 2: this increasing demand for the defense infrastructure and defense spend. 188 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 2: So there's a lot of different dynamics to this. I'd 189 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 2: like to say all of them are positive, but you know, 190 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 2: some of them will We'll see some of them will 191 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 2: have less I guess positive impacts, so we'll see probably 192 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 2: a bit of a competition between the private and public 193 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 2: sector for building capability over the next decade. 194 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: Well, Doctor John Coyne, the head of the Northern Australia 195 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: Strategic Policy Center and also headed Strategic Policing and Law 196 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: Enforcement at the Australian Strategic Policy Institute. I always appreciate 197 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: your time, I appreciate your insight. Thank you very much 198 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: for speaking with us today. 199 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 2: Thanks Cattie talking for Thank you