1
00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:05,559
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

2
00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:09,119
Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

3
00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:10,560
Speaker 2: once answers.

4
00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:14,040
Speaker 1: Now Today a very serious conversation on the Happy Families podcast,

5
00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:16,520
Speaker 1: Probably a conversation that doesn't have much to do with

6
00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:19,600
Speaker 1: Happy Families. In fact, it's the kind of thing that

7
00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:23,239
Speaker 1: can be tremendously challenging. Just a warning before we dive

8
00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,960
Speaker 1: into the content today. This is definitely not content that

9
00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:29,480
Speaker 1: is going to be what you might call typically safe

10
00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,040
Speaker 1: for children, especially younger children. We are going to be

11
00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,760
Speaker 1: talking about findings from the Australian Child Male Treatment Study

12
00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:40,760
Speaker 1: and a conversation about abuse, specifically sexual abuse of children.

13
00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:43,960
Speaker 1: So please be mindful that that's what the content will be,

14
00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:47,640
Speaker 1: and be judicious and use your discernment in terms of

15
00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:50,680
Speaker 1: whether or not you or your children will do well

16
00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:54,280
Speaker 1: by listening to it. But my goodness, it's important. My

17
00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:56,480
Speaker 1: guest on the podcast today's doctor Ben Matthews. He's a

18
00:00:56,480 --> 00:01:00,440
Speaker 1: Research professor in the School of Law at QUT Queensland

19
00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:05,360
Speaker 1: University of Technology here in Brisbane, Queensland, Australia, also the

20
00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:08,680
Speaker 1: Principal Research Fellow in the qt Faculty of Business and

21
00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:13,680
Speaker 1: Law and an adjunct professor at Johns Hopkins University, Bloomberg

22
00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:17,479
Speaker 1: School of Public Health. Dr Matthews was a Professorial Fellow

23
00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:22,120
Speaker 1: of the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse.

24
00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,120
Speaker 1: He's published three books, twenty government reports, one hundred and

25
00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,759
Speaker 1: twenty five refereed scholarly articles and book chapters, and fifty

26
00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:31,160
Speaker 1: law reform submissions on issues concerning children and the law,

27
00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:36,000
Speaker 1: and over one hundred national and international conference presentations. And

28
00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:41,720
Speaker 1: he works on the Australian Child Maltreatment Study. Dr Matthews,

29
00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:43,600
Speaker 1: it's really a privileged to have you on the podcast

30
00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:47,080
Speaker 1: to talk about a topic that is sorted an unfortunate

31
00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:50,760
Speaker 1: and yet so important. Really appreciate your joining me now.

32
00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:55,240
Speaker 2: Thanks justin. Great to be with you, and greetings to

33
00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:57,800
Speaker 2: all your listeners. This is a really important topic and look,

34
00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,760
Speaker 2: actually this is actually about happy families and I'll explain

35
00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,440
Speaker 2: a bit more about why that's so. So it's good

36
00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:09,160
Speaker 2: to be contributing to a podcast for your organization.

37
00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:11,840
Speaker 1: Ben, let's set the stage. The name of the study,

38
00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:13,840
Speaker 1: the U Strange Child Male Treatment Study. What's it actually

39
00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:15,600
Speaker 1: all about? Can you give us some detail?

40
00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:18,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this was a massive study that we conducted

41
00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:21,440
Speaker 2: over the last five years, so I led a team

42
00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:25,560
Speaker 2: of ten chief investigators. Basically, it was a very, very

43
00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:28,520
Speaker 2: broad and comprehensive study, the biggest and most rigorous of

44
00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:32,800
Speaker 2: its type in Australia and significant globally. Basically, what we

45
00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:36,040
Speaker 2: did is we surveyed eight and a half thousand Australians

46
00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:39,400
Speaker 2: eight sixteen and over to establish for the first time

47
00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:44,160
Speaker 2: the true prevalence within the population across Australia of all

48
00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,760
Speaker 2: five types of child male treatment. So we measured sexual abuse,

49
00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:53,480
Speaker 2: physical abuse, emotional abuse, neglect and exposure to domestic violence

50
00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:57,720
Speaker 2: in childhood and those experiences right across the span of childhood,

51
00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,760
Speaker 2: so right up to age eighteen. So in other words,

52
00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,720
Speaker 2: in short, we've found out the true percentage of kids

53
00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:07,520
Speaker 2: who experience those types of forms of male treatment. We

54
00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:11,840
Speaker 2: then identified information about the nature of those experiences, so

55
00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:14,560
Speaker 2: for example, who is it, who inflicts it, the age

56
00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,480
Speaker 2: at which it starts and so on. Importantly, we then

57
00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:22,160
Speaker 2: measured the associated health outcomes of those experiences, especially mental

58
00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:25,960
Speaker 2: health outcomes and health risk behaviors things like self harm,

59
00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:30,040
Speaker 2: suicide attempt and drug dependence. So in other words, we've

60
00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:34,000
Speaker 2: found the extent of child male treatment in Australia. We've

61
00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,760
Speaker 2: found differences in how it affects girls and boys. We've

62
00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:41,920
Speaker 2: found whether the trends have increased or decreased over time

63
00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,960
Speaker 2: in Australian society, and we've found out which types of

64
00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:47,720
Speaker 2: maltreatment are particularly damaging for health.

65
00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:50,200
Speaker 1: I feel like, as you described that, then we could

66
00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:54,560
Speaker 1: probably do a ten part podcast series on all of

67
00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:56,880
Speaker 1: the research findings that have come out of this study.

68
00:03:57,320 --> 00:03:59,680
Speaker 1: Obviously so important. The one that I want to focus

69
00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,320
Speaker 1: on today, and it's only one, unfortunately, I wish we

70
00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,440
Speaker 1: could do them all is a finding from the study

71
00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:10,440
Speaker 1: that looked at sexual abuse and specifically who is most

72
00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:14,480
Speaker 1: likely to be an abuser. This is something that just

73
00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:18,800
Speaker 1: everything in me. I panicked is the right word. That's

74
00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,040
Speaker 1: probably a little bit too alarmis, but certainly it was

75
00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,039
Speaker 1: just shocking. Can you talk me through your findings around

76
00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:28,000
Speaker 1: this specific area please, because it's the kind of thing

77
00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:29,560
Speaker 1: that I think every parent needs.

78
00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,400
Speaker 2: To know absolutely, and look, everyone does need to know this.

79
00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,560
Speaker 2: These are really really important findings in terms of child

80
00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,600
Speaker 2: sexual abuse. We found a prevalence across the population of

81
00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:44,160
Speaker 2: twenty eight and a half percent, so a significant proportion

82
00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:47,320
Speaker 2: of the population of experienced sexual abuse in childhood.

83
00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,799
Speaker 1: It's a stunning number. A quarter more than a quarter,

84
00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:51,279
Speaker 1: more than a.

85
00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,599
Speaker 2: Quarter, so slightly more than one in for.

86
00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:56,479
Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about who's doing it, who's most at risk.

87
00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:58,200
Speaker 1: Can we step through what you found there?

88
00:04:58,320 --> 00:04:59,760
Speaker 2: The first thing I want to say is that they

89
00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:03,279
Speaker 2: have has been a decline, a slight decline in sexual

90
00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:05,600
Speaker 2: abuse in recent years. So one of the great things

91
00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:09,000
Speaker 2: our study enabled us to do is by looking at

92
00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,560
Speaker 2: prevalence rates in different age groups in our study, we're

93
00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,120
Speaker 2: able to see has the rate of sexual abuse in

94
00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:19,280
Speaker 2: the population increased, decreased, or stayed about the same, and

95
00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:23,680
Speaker 2: if so, have trends varied by different kind of perpetrator group.

96
00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,160
Speaker 2: So the first good thing to report is that yes,

97
00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,320
Speaker 2: sexual abuse has in fact declined, and we know that

98
00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,400
Speaker 2: from comparing the rate from our sixteen to twenty four

99
00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:35,920
Speaker 2: year olds in our sample with those who are aged

100
00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,160
Speaker 2: twenty five to forty four and those who are aged

101
00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,520
Speaker 2: forty five and above right through to sixty five plus.

102
00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:44,440
Speaker 2: So there's some good news there, and that shows us

103
00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:48,640
Speaker 2: that some of the prevention efforts that we've implemented as

104
00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:52,360
Speaker 2: a country have been having a good positive effect in

105
00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,560
Speaker 2: reducing child sexual abuses. So that is fantastic news. It

106
00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:59,920
Speaker 2: shows that change is possible and change continues to be required.

107
00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,080
Speaker 2: So the first thing we also need to say is

108
00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:06,040
Speaker 2: that sexual abuse is still a problem. So even within

109
00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:08,840
Speaker 2: the sixteen to twenty four year age group, which is

110
00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:12,719
Speaker 2: who I'll talk about most today, we have twenty five

111
00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:17,480
Speaker 2: point seven percent prevalence, and it's particularly affecting girls rather

112
00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:21,080
Speaker 2: than boys. So about thirty five percent of girls in

113
00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,640
Speaker 2: our sixteen girls and young women in our sixteen to

114
00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:27,560
Speaker 2: twenty four year group experienced sexual abuse before they turned eighteen,

115
00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,760
Speaker 2: versus say fourteen percent of boys and young men.

116
00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,919
Speaker 1: And when you say they experienced it, it didn't necessarily

117
00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:36,680
Speaker 1: have to be when they were a teenager. Okay, so

118
00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:38,680
Speaker 1: this is retrospective, right, It might have been when there

119
00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:40,480
Speaker 1: were four or five, eight twelve.

120
00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:44,159
Speaker 2: Exactly. What we then did justin and this is what

121
00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,880
Speaker 2: I think you're really interested in today, is who is

122
00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:51,080
Speaker 2: it who inflicted those acts of sexual abuse? So we

123
00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:55,880
Speaker 2: asked four questions about sexual abuse, and for each one

124
00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,400
Speaker 2: of those questions where someone said, yes, that happened to me,

125
00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:00,919
Speaker 2: we asked who was it who did it? And so

126
00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:05,320
Speaker 2: this enabled us to identify which perpetrators have inflicted sexual

127
00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,920
Speaker 2: abuse at different rates across time in Australian society.

128
00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,560
Speaker 1: So as a parent of six daughters, for me to

129
00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,120
Speaker 1: keep my kids safe, I need to know what to

130
00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,480
Speaker 1: teach them. And obviously part of this is the conversations

131
00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:20,720
Speaker 1: that I have with them about their own safety and protection.

132
00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:22,840
Speaker 1: But it's also helping them to stay away from places

133
00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,240
Speaker 1: where they could be at increased risk. Who did you

134
00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:29,880
Speaker 1: find were the kinds of people who would put children

135
00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:30,840
Speaker 1: at increased risk?

136
00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:35,640
Speaker 2: Well, look, it's a complex and nuanced picture. So I'm

137
00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:38,280
Speaker 2: glad we've got a good amount of time to talk

138
00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:42,920
Speaker 2: about this today, and it's important not to overgeneralize or oversimplify.

139
00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:46,560
Speaker 2: The first thing I want to say is that sexual

140
00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:51,440
Speaker 2: abuse by adult perpetrators, even in the younger generation that

141
00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:55,560
Speaker 2: we surveyed, is still a significant problem. Okay, So we

142
00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,760
Speaker 2: found eleven point seven percent of our sixteen to twenty

143
00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,640
Speaker 2: four year old sample. We can extrapolate that across the

144
00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,560
Speaker 2: nation because we had a nationally representative sample in our survey,

145
00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:10,000
Speaker 2: eleven point seven percent, so one in eight experienced sexual

146
00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:14,600
Speaker 2: abuse by an adult perpetrator. Okay, So in other words,

147
00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:18,560
Speaker 2: if you went into any average year twelve classroom in

148
00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:21,880
Speaker 2: Australia that has say thirty thirty two kids in that

149
00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,120
Speaker 2: year twelve classroom, four of them will have experienced sexual

150
00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:31,320
Speaker 2: abuse by an adult perpetrator. Okay, and I'll come back

151
00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:33,320
Speaker 2: to how we measured sexual abuse in a moment, so

152
00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:35,319
Speaker 2: you know the kinds of acts that we looked at.

153
00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:39,840
Speaker 2: But we did also find that within our sixteen to

154
00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:44,120
Speaker 2: twenty four year olds, we had a rate of eighteen

155
00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:48,880
Speaker 2: point two percent who experienced sexual abuse by another adolescent.

156
00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:53,240
Speaker 2: That is some another kid eight under eighteen. Okay, so

157
00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,560
Speaker 2: eighteen percent, so close to one in five of kids

158
00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,560
Speaker 2: in contemporary Australia have experienced it at least one sexual

159
00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:05,000
Speaker 2: abuse of act by another adolescent age under eighteen. And

160
00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:06,960
Speaker 2: when we looked a little bit further at that, we

161
00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:10,199
Speaker 2: find that most of those adolescent perpetrators are other kids

162
00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:11,280
Speaker 2: that the child knew.

163
00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:15,760
Speaker 1: Okay, question for you around that, how do you distinguish

164
00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:24,120
Speaker 1: between what I might generously call adolescent experimentation and sexual abuse.

165
00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:26,480
Speaker 2: That's a great question.

166
00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:29,720
Speaker 1: I don't want to minimize the impact that that can have.

167
00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:32,400
Speaker 1: It can still be abusive, but there are kids who

168
00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:36,320
Speaker 1: well younger kids play doctors and nurses and we discourage that,

169
00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:38,320
Speaker 1: but we also recognize that they're kids and they're just

170
00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:40,960
Speaker 1: sort of learning about their bodies. Where do you draw

171
00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:41,480
Speaker 1: the line on.

172
00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:45,360
Speaker 2: That absolutely very important question, And this is all about

173
00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,360
Speaker 2: the proper definition of what is child sexual abuse and

174
00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:52,199
Speaker 2: what is not and what is in your term, say,

175
00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:55,760
Speaker 2: adolescent experimentation. And you referred to say young kids playing

176
00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:58,360
Speaker 2: doctors and nurses, and looku I would say, you know,

177
00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:02,560
Speaker 2: a lot of people probably don't discourage that, and that's

178
00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:07,200
Speaker 2: probably okay because that's a developmentally normative thing for very

179
00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,560
Speaker 2: young kids to do. It's about learning about their bodies.

180
00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,760
Speaker 2: There's no problem with that. That is not child sexual abuse.

181
00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,880
Speaker 2: So some things that we call adolescent experimentation or early

182
00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:23,200
Speaker 2: childhood experimentation for want of a better term, adolescent experimentation

183
00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:28,200
Speaker 2: that is developmentally normal, natural, common, and typical in childhood

184
00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:34,600
Speaker 2: and adolescents. Involves consensual acts between similarly aged.

185
00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:37,080
Speaker 1: Peers, coercion, there's no power.

186
00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:42,840
Speaker 2: No coercion, no pressure, no clear power imbalance. Right, Consent

187
00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:45,440
Speaker 2: is key. Consent is key.

188
00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:47,880
Speaker 1: In fact, a funny story before you go on. We

189
00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:52,120
Speaker 1: caught our kids with their cousins. They were doing some well,

190
00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:54,840
Speaker 1: they weren't actually doing doctors and nurses. They were doing

191
00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:57,880
Speaker 1: a shopping trip, but when they were paying for the groceries,

192
00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:00,079
Speaker 1: one of the kids had pulled their pants down and

193
00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:02,800
Speaker 1: they were using their bum crack as the credit card slot,

194
00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,800
Speaker 1: and they found my mum's credit cards and they were

195
00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,840
Speaker 1: sliding the credit cards down the bump crack. And of

196
00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:12,720
Speaker 1: course this is not child abuse. This is just fun

197
00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,200
Speaker 1: kid experimentation that we still put a stop to and

198
00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,960
Speaker 1: explain why you do I get your credit card dirty?

199
00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:19,520
Speaker 2: Right, But.

200
00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:23,760
Speaker 1: Obviously there's a there's a distinct difference, and the one

201
00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:28,880
Speaker 1: that you're drawing the line under most clearly here is consensual.

202
00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:33,720
Speaker 2: Exactly exactly. And so I'll just give a little background here.

203
00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:38,040
Speaker 2: There's been a lot of dispute even amongst the scientific

204
00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,600
Speaker 2: field for decades about how do we properly define what

205
00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:43,960
Speaker 2: child sexual abuse is and it's not. And it's really

206
00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:48,200
Speaker 2: important to do that very well because it has huge implications,

207
00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:51,080
Speaker 2: say for epiity and the logical studies like ours about

208
00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,160
Speaker 2: what you can't and what you don't, but it's also

209
00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:57,600
Speaker 2: got implications for legal fields, for policy and prevention, practice,

210
00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:02,440
Speaker 2: for education of kids and so on. Before our study commenced,

211
00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,199
Speaker 2: I own a colleague of mind from overseas, spent about

212
00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:08,880
Speaker 2: three years doing a really systematic review and analysis and

213
00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:11,640
Speaker 2: came up with a model, a conceptual model of what

214
00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,320
Speaker 2: child sexual abuse is, and that has really helped to

215
00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:17,800
Speaker 2: advance the field. And I'll just give you the conceptual

216
00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,000
Speaker 2: model or definition that we came up with and then

217
00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:22,280
Speaker 2: explain what we measured in our study, just so we

218
00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:26,280
Speaker 2: know what we're talking about here. So basically based on

219
00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:30,000
Speaker 2: our systematic review and analysis, and this was published in

220
00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:34,040
Speaker 2: the leading journal in the world, we define sexual abuse

221
00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,560
Speaker 2: as a sexual act and this model has a number

222
00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:40,080
Speaker 2: of components. I'll just take you through them. So a

223
00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:43,719
Speaker 2: sexual act, it can include physical contact, but it can

224
00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:49,280
Speaker 2: also involve a non contact act by any adult or child.

225
00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:53,320
Speaker 2: So sexual abuse can be inflicted by another adolescent aged

226
00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,520
Speaker 2: under eighteen who's in a position of any kind of

227
00:12:56,679 --> 00:13:00,880
Speaker 2: power over the child victim. It could be physical power, psychological,

228
00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:06,120
Speaker 2: something relational to obtain sexual gratification. Okay, and that's an

229
00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:10,720
Speaker 2: important point. When the child victim either doesn't have any

230
00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,880
Speaker 2: capacity to consent to sex, so let's say they're really little,

231
00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:18,840
Speaker 2: or they technically have capacity that is cognitive capacity. Let's

232
00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:22,200
Speaker 2: say they're sixteen seventeen, but they did not actually provide consent.

233
00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:26,120
Speaker 2: So it's a few different components to that model, all

234
00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,400
Speaker 2: of which are important and go into a model of

235
00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,520
Speaker 2: what child sexual abuse is and helps to exclude other

236
00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:36,720
Speaker 2: things like developmentally normal play from that definition. And to

237
00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:40,440
Speaker 2: just to round off this comment justin to explain how

238
00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:44,599
Speaker 2: that then translates to operational definitions of sexual abuse and

239
00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,440
Speaker 2: the things that we measured in our study. It includes

240
00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:51,600
Speaker 2: things like forced sexual intercourse, whether vaginal, oral, or anal.

241
00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:56,880
Speaker 2: It includes attempted force sexual intercourse, forced sexual touching. They're

242
00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:00,760
Speaker 2: three contact types of sexual abuse, and then on contact

243
00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:04,360
Speaker 2: sexual act. So for example, forcing a child to look

244
00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:07,880
Speaker 2: at someone else's private parts or forcibly looking at a

245
00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:09,440
Speaker 2: child's private parts.

246
00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,920
Speaker 1: It leads me feeling a little queasy and very uneasy.

247
00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,720
Speaker 1: But I'm thinking about practical terms now. So I've heard

248
00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,640
Speaker 1: far too many stories about kids who have been harmed

249
00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:25,360
Speaker 1: by the adolescent boy up the road, or the big

250
00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,920
Speaker 1: brother or the big cousin, or they've gone to somebody's

251
00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:33,479
Speaker 1: house and there's been a visitor there. These stories are prolific.

252
00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:35,600
Speaker 1: I'm sure that you've heard far more of them than

253
00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,000
Speaker 1: I have. What does this mean in practical terms for

254
00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:40,880
Speaker 1: families who let their kids play in the street or

255
00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:44,320
Speaker 1: the park down the road, or at someone's house just

256
00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:47,840
Speaker 1: up the road. What does a parent do here? Because

257
00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:49,240
Speaker 1: we can't help more the.

258
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:54,760
Speaker 2: Good question, but a couple of things tonight. First is

259
00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,480
Speaker 2: that it's important to be aware of who is more

260
00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:02,200
Speaker 2: likely to be a sexual abusive perpetrator against kids and

261
00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,440
Speaker 2: who is not, So we now know that you know

262
00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,320
Speaker 2: strained to danger. It's an old dative myth. It's not

263
00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,880
Speaker 2: that unknown people never sexually abuse kids, but in the

264
00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:17,840
Speaker 2: big picture, it's much more rare for unknown people to.

265
00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,680
Speaker 1: Abuse kids than known people miniscry percentage.

266
00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:24,880
Speaker 2: Exactly, And so translating this to our study into young

267
00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,360
Speaker 2: kids today and to parents today, it's good to know

268
00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,680
Speaker 2: who your kids are socializing with. And part of knowing

269
00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:32,920
Speaker 2: who you could socialize with is to talk to them

270
00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,120
Speaker 2: and listen to them and show an ongoing interest in

271
00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,320
Speaker 2: our lives and to know about what's going on in

272
00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:44,600
Speaker 2: their lives. It's also important to develop sufficiently close relationships

273
00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,920
Speaker 2: with your kids that you have conversations about sex and

274
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,920
Speaker 2: relationships and about knowing about consent and about knowing about

275
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:57,080
Speaker 2: gender equality about knowing what's okay for other people to

276
00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,680
Speaker 2: do to your kids, but also what's okay not okay

277
00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,920
Speaker 2: for your kids to do to other kids. So having

278
00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:09,800
Speaker 2: that broad relational connection with your kids and creating space

279
00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,800
Speaker 2: where you have healthy conversations about sex and development and

280
00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:17,880
Speaker 2: relationships and all the skills and attributes that go towards

281
00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:23,360
Speaker 2: healthy human beings and healthy relationships are strong protective factors.

282
00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:26,640
Speaker 2: One other thing just before I round off that comment,

283
00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:30,000
Speaker 2: justin as well as knowing who you kids are socializing with,

284
00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:33,520
Speaker 2: it can be helpful, especially in kind of riskier situations

285
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:38,600
Speaker 2: let's say parties where fifteen, sixteen seventeen year olds are

286
00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:44,480
Speaker 2: gathering and Clustering's helpful to have appropriate supervision, especially if

287
00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:46,200
Speaker 2: there might be, say alcohol.

288
00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:51,640
Speaker 1: I was speaking with Doctor Ben Matthews' is a research

289
00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:54,080
Speaker 1: professor in the School of Law at Queensland University of

290
00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,680
Speaker 1: Technology and also the lead researcher on the Australian Child

291
00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:02,200
Speaker 1: Maltreatment Study. When I'm listening to what you're saying here, Ben,

292
00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,320
Speaker 1: I'm really concerned. I mean, we've got one in five kids.

293
00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:09,720
Speaker 1: These numbers are big, these numbers are really substantial. But

294
00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:13,400
Speaker 1: I don't want to tar all teenage boys, for example,

295
00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:21,680
Speaker 1: with the label of potential child abuser potential molester. Having

296
00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:23,840
Speaker 1: said that, given that the most common perpetrators child sex

297
00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:27,679
Speaker 1: abuse in Australia are other under eighteen individuals who are

298
00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,240
Speaker 1: known to the victims, what do you think the factors

299
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:36,399
Speaker 1: are that are contributing to this offending. Why is it

300
00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:40,800
Speaker 1: that adolescents are I don't know if it's increasingly likely.

301
00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:43,920
Speaker 1: We didn't mention the trend here, but why are adolescents

302
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:49,080
Speaker 1: so likely to offend sexually, particularly against their same age

303
00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:50,760
Speaker 1: peers or those who are younger than them.

304
00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:55,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, a couple of preparatory comments I'll give there. We

305
00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,760
Speaker 2: did find that there has been an increase in recent

306
00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:03,840
Speaker 2: years in offending by other adolescents aged under eighteen, that's true.

307
00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,760
Speaker 2: And we did find that rate of say, eighteen percent

308
00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,239
Speaker 2: of our sixteen to twenty four year old group had

309
00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:14,160
Speaker 2: experienced sexual abuse by another adolescent. Okay, so about one

310
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,840
Speaker 2: in five had experienced that. The flip side of which

311
00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,480
Speaker 2: is a stark story, but it's one that we all

312
00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:24,159
Speaker 2: need to know. The flip side of that is that

313
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:29,040
Speaker 2: four in five had not experienced sexual abuse by another

314
00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:33,439
Speaker 2: adolescent age under eighteen. Okay, So we don't want to

315
00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:37,760
Speaker 2: demonize all adolescents. Absolutely, that is not the message. And

316
00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:41,640
Speaker 2: we don't want to demonize all male adolescents either, that's

317
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,800
Speaker 2: not the message. At the same time, when we look

318
00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:50,280
Speaker 2: at the group of adolescents who did sexual offend or

319
00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:54,080
Speaker 2: based on our self report study by the victims who

320
00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:59,520
Speaker 2: had experienced sexual abuse by other adolescents, the majority were

321
00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:04,840
Speaker 2: male adolescents known to the child victim. Okay, and most

322
00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:10,439
Speaker 2: of them had not either currently been the victim's boyfriend

323
00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,600
Speaker 2: or had previously been the victim's boyfriend, but they were

324
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:15,920
Speaker 2: known to them. Okay.

325
00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:18,119
Speaker 1: So this is a non romantic relationship. It's not like,

326
00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:20,640
Speaker 1: in fact, they're in a relationship where there's some level

327
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,920
Speaker 1: of coercion. This is a we know each other and suddenly,

328
00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,399
Speaker 1: exactly somebody is a victim of abuse.

329
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:31,840
Speaker 2: Exactly exactly. Although there was we also did find an

330
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,880
Speaker 2: increase in sexual abuse of kids aged under eighteen by

331
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:40,160
Speaker 2: others under eighteen who were current boyfriends or former boyfriends.

332
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,360
Speaker 2: So we did find a little increase there too.

333
00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,320
Speaker 1: So I guess the question is why in both cases why,

334
00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:46,200
Speaker 1: And this.

335
00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,600
Speaker 2: Is a really difficult question to answer. We did consider

336
00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:53,280
Speaker 2: this as a team when we conducted our analysis and

337
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:57,080
Speaker 2: wrote about it in the journal article. And it's difficult

338
00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:00,479
Speaker 2: to be sure of the precise reasons for this increase,

339
00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,359
Speaker 2: but we did consider this and came up with a

340
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,200
Speaker 2: couple that we thought were likely. But we would really

341
00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:10,040
Speaker 2: need further research on this. But one reason we identified

342
00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:14,200
Speaker 2: is that there may be a perceived heightened societal pressure

343
00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:20,119
Speaker 2: to have sexual experiences due to a generalized sexualization of adolescents,

344
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,679
Speaker 2: especially as expressed in media and social media these days.

345
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:28,240
Speaker 2: So one thing that has clearly demarketed the current generation

346
00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:32,160
Speaker 2: of adolescents compared to say, those around say twenty years

347
00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,840
Speaker 2: ago and forty years ago, is that we have this

348
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:41,719
Speaker 2: proliferation of social media, which can heighten social expectations and

349
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,320
Speaker 2: various perceptions.

350
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:46,840
Speaker 1: For example, so you see and hear about what all

351
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:48,720
Speaker 1: the cool kids are doing or what all the influencers

352
00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:50,800
Speaker 1: are doing, and you see what's happening in the movies,

353
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:52,640
Speaker 1: and obviously, well, I want to talk to you about

354
00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:55,359
Speaker 1: pornography separately, but yes, you've got all this kind of

355
00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,800
Speaker 1: hyped up sexualization that adolescents are swimming.

356
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:06,480
Speaker 2: In exactly, and also depictions of masculinity or perceived masculinity

357
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:12,040
Speaker 2: and perceived successful masculinity and perceived strength. Okay, so we

358
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,240
Speaker 2: have certain kind of gender norms that can be portrayed

359
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:20,240
Speaker 2: in social media as well that might be even more

360
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:25,000
Speaker 2: pervasive and kind of powerful in conveying these messages which

361
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:30,040
Speaker 2: are obviously often inaccurate messages, but can still be influential

362
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:37,800
Speaker 2: on developing teenage minds. You also mentioned the influence or

363
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:41,800
Speaker 2: potential influence of pornography, and we gave this strong consideration

364
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:46,520
Speaker 2: as well. There's a lot of mixed scientific evidence about

365
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:51,639
Speaker 2: the impact of exposure to pornography on sexual violence, but

366
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:56,119
Speaker 2: it seems that the better evidence, or the best available

367
00:21:56,160 --> 00:22:01,120
Speaker 2: evidence indicates that it's not necessarily exposure to any pornography

368
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:05,679
Speaker 2: or any explicit content that affects violent sexual behavior. But

369
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:10,240
Speaker 2: there is better evidence that exposure to violent pornography or

370
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:16,679
Speaker 2: explicit violent offending can have an effect. So we do think,

371
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 2: or we would suspect that it's plausible that the heightened

372
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:30,600
Speaker 2: availability and access to online violent pornography may have had

373
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:34,919
Speaker 2: an impact on this increase in adolescent offending in recent

374
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,199
Speaker 2: years too. That's partly to do with the creation of

375
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:44,880
Speaker 2: gendered norms, expectations, senses of sexual entitlement, a feeling or

376
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:50,120
Speaker 2: a lack of respect for girls and young women, and

377
00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 2: a lack of gender equality. Generally, those types of attitudes

378
00:22:55,840 --> 00:23:03,359
Speaker 2: and dispositions we know are likely to increase sexually aggressive behavior.

379
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,879
Speaker 2: In contrast, things like a lack of a sense of

380
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 2: sexual entitlement, empathy towards others, impulse control. These are the

381
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:18,439
Speaker 2: types of things, respect, empathy, gender equality that really matter

382
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 2: in producing healthy human beings and people who don't inflict

383
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:25,439
Speaker 2: violence and sexual violence on others.

384
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:27,719
Speaker 1: But I want to take this conversation in a slightly

385
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 1: different direction. Well, actually I want to stick with the

386
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 1: pornography side of things for just a moment. It's such

387
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 1: a provocative and rightly well discussed area. Last year, towards

388
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,360
Speaker 1: the end of the year, the Australian Federal Government vetoed

389
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 1: submissions from the Safety Commissioner Julian mcgrant to develop an

390
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 1: age verification system for explicit online content. In other words,

391
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 1: a way of really making sure that access to explicit

392
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 1: content online pornographic content online is only available for people

393
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,159
Speaker 1: who are eighteen plus or very savvy teenagers who have

394
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 1: done a work around. But they're going to have to

395
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:04,439
Speaker 1: work really hard to get there. To what extent do

396
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,200
Speaker 1: you think that having this kind of government intervention had

397
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 1: the government said yes to it, What might that age

398
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 1: verification system do in terms of being helpful in reducing

399
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 1: the kind of abuse that you've been studying?

400
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,920
Speaker 2: Well, justin this is a great question in a very

401
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:27,000
Speaker 2: complex area, and it's tough to be definitive about this

402
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 2: because so much depends on what what are the exact

403
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:35,640
Speaker 2: parameters we're talking about here? How do you define explicit material?

404
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:42,399
Speaker 2: Which specific types are you planning on applying this age

405
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:48,439
Speaker 2: verification threshold? For what I just referred to earlier, is

406
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,879
Speaker 2: the best evidence in the field indicates that certain types

407
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 2: of violent pornography can tend to have an impact on

408
00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 2: behavior and attitudes. Exposure to other types of explicit material

409
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 2: may not, or there's no sufficient or compelling evidence to

410
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:10,200
Speaker 2: indicate that it does.

411
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I guess you've also got issues of causation, right,

412
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 1: So people who are more likely to be offenders than

413
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 1: going to seek out that material. So therefore is it

414
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 1: a personality attribute or is it the content that they've

415
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 1: been consuming. It's really hard to do ethical studies with teenager.

416
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 2: Of course, there's also that sequencing that temporal sequencing issue

417
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 2: and issues of correlation, causation, et cetera. What I would

418
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 2: think is much more important, though, is to accelerate public

419
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 2: health efforts about healthy sexual relationships and education of kids

420
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:53,159
Speaker 2: in schools and supporting parents to implement healthy sexual relationships

421
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 2: education of their own kids in the home, so that

422
00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 2: we have a parallel approach to this to help our

423
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 2: kids develop healthy sexual and healthy relational boundaries and attributes

424
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 2: within themselves. That would be much more important, much more

425
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 2: effective in continuing to in arresting this increase in adolescent

426
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 2: sexual offending and in decreasing it in future generations. That's

427
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 2: what's the most important.

428
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Chanelle contos teachers consent type of internationally at

429
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 1: home and at school, a dual approach. Okay, well, I

430
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 1: guess that feeds into my final question. This is a

431
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 1: podcast that's typically designed for the time poor parents who

432
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 1: just wants answers. Now, we've obviously gone a lot deeper

433
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,199
Speaker 1: on a very sensitive topic today than we usually do

434
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: in this podcast, but I'd love to get really practical

435
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 1: in wrapping things up. This is a conversation's obviously vital

436
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 1: to our children's safety and their health and their well being.

437
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 1: If you were to outline the three most important things

438
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: that you think parents should do with this knowledge, what

439
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 1: would they be?

440
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:04,719
Speaker 2: This is the million dollar question, isn't it. But the

441
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 2: first thing I would say is that the best thing

442
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 2: we can do as a society and the best thing

443
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 2: parents can do, is to help develop in your kids

444
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,679
Speaker 2: the skills and dispositions that promote healthy sexual development and

445
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 2: healthy sexual behavior towards themselves and others, and that minimize

446
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 2: the attributes that contribute to sexual violence. This applies especially

447
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 2: to boys, but also to girls. So one of the

448
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 2: things that parents can best do is to educate their

449
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 2: kids about their bodies, about sex, about healthy sexual development,

450
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 2: healthy relationships with others and themselves, and about gender equality.

451
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 2: A second thing I would say is to develop relationships

452
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 2: with your kids that you can have ongoing conversations, open

453
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 2: conversations about sex and relationships and not silence this, not

454
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 2: leave kids to their own devices and not having good

455
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 2: model behavior and receiving good messages. And the third thing

456
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 2: I think is that it's really important to help kids

457
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 2: and especially boys, to develop empathy towards others and understanding

458
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 2: that they're not entitled ever to sex with others, that

459
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 2: sets should only ever happen with full consent, and that

460
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 2: it's a healthy, normal, natural part of life that can

461
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:24,640
Speaker 2: be engaged in and enjoyed under the right circumstances. All

462
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 2: of those things together will provide us with a lot

463
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 2: of good messages and hopefully help to produce good young

464
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 2: people moving forward.

465
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 1: My definition of consent at a practical level when I'm

466
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 1: talking to my kids or our lessons generally, is if

467
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 1: we're both excited about it, then it's probably going to

468
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 1: be okay. But if there's anyone who's not excited about it,

469
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 1: we could have a problem because you wake up the

470
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 1: next day and there's regret and pain and so on,

471
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 1: and suddenly it doesn't feel quite so consensual. Doctor Ben

472
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 1: Matthews is a research professor in the School of Law

473
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 1: at Queensland University of Technol in Brisbane and also the

474
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 1: lead researcher on the Istralian Child Male Treatment Study. Been

475
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 1: such a vital, important conversation. Thank you so much for

476
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: being so generous with your time, and I've been really

477
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: challenging to squeeze this in, but such an important discussion

478
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 1: and really appreciate your joining me.

479
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 2: Thanks justin my pleasure, Happy to talk another time.

480
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 1: The Happy Family's podcast is produced audio by Justin Roland,

481
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 1: video by Jet Hatchard. Our executive producer is Craig Bruce.

482
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 1: If this has sparked anything for you and you or

483
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 1: your family need help, please speak to a mental health

484
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: professional or at least go and see your GP and

485
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 1: get some advice on next steps. Sometimes you may even

486
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 1: need to speak to law enforcement depending on the circumstances,

487
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 1: so please be discerning and who you speak to get

488
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 1: the help that you need. Hopefully we can talk to

489
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 1: Ben again about some more findings from the Australian Child

490
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 1: My Treatment Study. It's such an important topic for now though.

491
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for watching, thank you so much

492
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: for listening, and if you'd like more information about what

493
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: we've talked about, check out the Australian Child My Treatment

494
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: Study online or visit Happy Families dot com dot au