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Speaker 1: Now, obviously we've discussed a lot this morning about some

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Speaker 1: of the pressure on our health system and the latest

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Speaker 1: warning is a pretty concerning one. The union that represents

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Speaker 1: our nurses and midwives in the Northern Territories say that

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Speaker 1: staff are facing threats, abuse and violence as part of

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Speaker 1: their daily routine inside Royal Darwin Hospital's emergency department. Now

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Speaker 1: they say that incidents are going unreported because nothing changes,

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Speaker 1: juress alarms aren't being responded to quickly enough, and security

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Speaker 1: guards don't have the powers to properly intervene. The union

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Speaker 1: is calling for urgent action, warning it is only a

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Speaker 1: matter of time before someone is seriously hurt. Now joining

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Speaker 1: us on the line is the Branch Secretary of the

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Speaker 1: Australian Nursing and Midway Free Association here in the Northern Territory,

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Speaker 1: Heidi Krisp. Good morning, Heidi, Good morning, Heidi, Thanks so

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Speaker 1: much for your time. Tell us how bad has the

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Speaker 1: situation because inside the emergency department at Royal Darwin Hospital

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Speaker 1: at the moment.

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Speaker 2: When I met with nurses last Tuesday, they told me

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Speaker 2: that they were at their utter tip of the eyespere.

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Speaker 2: They could not just cannot tolerate this anymore, And it

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Speaker 2: brings me absolutely no joy to tell you that there

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Speaker 2: was a serious incident this weekend passed. A new graduate

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Speaker 2: nurse was punched in the face. Another nurse has a

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Speaker 2: fractured finger and will be now off for a minimum

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Speaker 2: of two weeks, probably six weeks. And there were multiple

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Speaker 2: people involved in this incident, including nurses having to do

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Speaker 2: a takedown. So I just I use this terrific thing

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Speaker 2: as to highlight that these things are happening. And whilst

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Speaker 2: this is a serious multiple nurse incident, I'm hearing that

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Speaker 2: incidents are happening every day. Many of these will be

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Speaker 2: verbal threats, verbal assaults, But do you know they still

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Speaker 2: stick with nurses and that still causes ongoing trauma in

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Speaker 2: their minds and also reasons to leave your workplace.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's horrific. I mean honestly, if anybody else was

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Speaker 1: punched in the face at work, you wouldn't go.

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Speaker 2: Back, absolutely. And this is a new graduate, so they

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Speaker 2: will have spent three years doing training and this is there.

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Speaker 2: You know, you'd be really questioning your choices right now.

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Speaker 2: I really hope that the government and that the management

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Speaker 2: will be putting around and helping that person to be

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Speaker 2: safe and feel supported in their workplace.

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Speaker 1: I know you said, you know that you raise it,

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Speaker 1: and you're really highlighting that, you know, just to sort

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Speaker 1: of exemplify I guess for Territorians what our nurses are

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Speaker 1: dealing with when you talk about some of the violence

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Speaker 1: and threats that have become well, I hate to use

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Speaker 1: the word but routine. Can you give listeners a bit

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Speaker 1: of an understanding of what our nurses and midwives are

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Speaker 1: dealing with on a day to day basis.

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Speaker 2: Look, it's hard to I feel like I've opened the

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Speaker 2: Pandora's box and I have been getting lots of feedback

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Speaker 2: from members. Some people have been there for years and

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Speaker 2: years and have been raising these issues for years and years.

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Speaker 2: Some of these your life will be verbal threats. We've

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Speaker 2: seen an increase in weapons coming in. We've seen an

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Speaker 2: increase in people that need mental health support, but they're

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Speaker 2: coming through ED and the mental health supports out there,

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Speaker 2: and so that they are lashing out with threats and violence,

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Speaker 2: and we don't have a great response to that at

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Speaker 2: all times. And so I'm hearing from people that they

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Speaker 2: have been reporting this for years and years, and this

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Speaker 2: is not new. It's fairly new. For me, I've been

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Speaker 2: in this position for four months, so I think with

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Speaker 2: fresh eyes we sometimes see the horror of this, whereas

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Speaker 2: that has become acceptable. I even spoke to someone earlier

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Speaker 2: today who said the normal response is to just try

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Speaker 2: and laugh it off and try and find some that

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Speaker 2: you can. You know that, because laughing at off and

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Speaker 2: finding humor is a coping mechanism. But it's just not acceptable.

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Speaker 2: And when we hear people saying, well, you can't recruit

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Speaker 2: to ED, so therefore we shouldn't be worrying about getting

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Speaker 2: more stuff because you'll never get them anywhere. But that's

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Speaker 2: actually a problem down the line. If you make a

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Speaker 2: safe workplace and a compatible workplace with long devity, you

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Speaker 2: can recruit people. People do want to care, they want

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Speaker 2: to be working in these spaces. So I call them

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Speaker 2: out on this idea that we can't get stuff that

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Speaker 2: the government, the department, they need to start looking at

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Speaker 2: what they are doing to protect nurses and protect them

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Speaker 2: every day, you know, so that they can stay safe

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Speaker 2: and stay in the profession. Like I heard a nurse

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Speaker 2: tell me last week that she went to ED as

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Speaker 2: a nurse for two days and then she said it's

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Speaker 2: not safe for her as a registered nurse, both for

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Speaker 2: her personal safety and the safety of the patient. She

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Speaker 2: felt that her registration would be at risk to do that,

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Speaker 2: she left and that it's terrible and we're you know,

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Speaker 2: we're trying to recruit people to come to Darwin and

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Speaker 2: also people that have left the industry but might be

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Speaker 2: open to coming back. No one's doing it. No one's

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Speaker 2: going to do that in this climate.

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Speaker 1: No, Heidi, tell me, what are some measures do you

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Speaker 1: believe that the government and the department can actually implement

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Speaker 1: to try to keep our nurses and midwives safe. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I know it's everybody in emergency, but you are the

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Speaker 1: representative of course for our nurses and midwives. What could

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Speaker 1: be done? What are some practical measures?

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Speaker 2: We did list for practical measures and not go through them.

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Speaker 2: We put them in our media release. The first one

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Speaker 2: is an immediate investigation by Anti Work Safe, and I

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Speaker 2: appreciate that they've made a response saying not many people

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Speaker 2: have reported to Anti work Safe, which probably goes back

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Speaker 2: to our first point that this has become normalized and

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Speaker 2: people aren't seeing it as a problem. So we sending

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Speaker 2: our requests to Anti WORKFFT today and I think we

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Speaker 2: just need to start now. It needs to start from today.

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Speaker 2: So the immediate investigation by antiwork safe into the conditions.

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Speaker 2: We want a review of the security capability and response

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Speaker 2: times from within the hospital. We want. This is a

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Speaker 2: really basic one. I was shocked that this hasn't even

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Speaker 2: doesn't exist, a juristic system that alerts the team leader

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Speaker 2: in real time at the moment a nurse can press

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Speaker 2: the duress alarm in triage and the team leader, who

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Speaker 2: might be sitting at in another part of the department

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Speaker 2: won't get that alert until someone comes running down and

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Speaker 2: then says there's been a duress alarm. So that can

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Speaker 2: be up to fifteen minutes. I've been told that the

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Speaker 2: incident on the weekend was more like four to five minutes.

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Speaker 2: So it's still not to make good enough, is it.

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Speaker 2: And look, our final request is not out of the

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Speaker 2: hands of the current government or anybody, is system wide

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Speaker 2: solution to reduce the unsafe pressure on emergency departments. And

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Speaker 2: we're asking for all of the parts to come together

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Speaker 2: and work together. So nurses are raising issues, they're getting

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Speaker 2: blocked by management. Sometimes they're using clever words to say,

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Speaker 2: I said it was that you had a capacity problem.

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Speaker 2: In the ED they said, no, it's a flow problem.

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Speaker 2: So whatever way you look at it, if we have

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Speaker 2: an d that's constantly at one hundred and fifty percent capacity,

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Speaker 2: we have a problem, whatever you want to call it,

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Speaker 2: So let's all get together. I've also been told that

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Speaker 2: there's been reviews done within the last eighteen months. They

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Speaker 2: have solutions, they have great thoughts on this, and don't

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Speaker 2: get me wrong, no individual is responsible for these system

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Speaker 2: white failure. But when the solutions are put to execs

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Speaker 2: and higher ups, they told there's no budget. So I

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Speaker 2: am requesting budget for this now.

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Speaker 1: I just cannot believe HARDI that there is even a

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Speaker 1: situation where jerusalarm can be sounded and that you like

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Speaker 1: that you don't even have your you know, like that

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Speaker 1: you're not even able to get your your boss there

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Speaker 1: to be able to assist, and that somebody else has

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Speaker 1: got to run down to help. Like to me, I

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Speaker 1: just find that quite astonishing. I would have thought, if

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Speaker 1: you pressed Jerusalem, that you've got security and everybody coming

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Speaker 1: to help a nurse.

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Speaker 2: So we do have a different type or they, I

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Speaker 2: shouldn't say we they have a different type of security.

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Speaker 2: A code black where there's a threat to a staff

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Speaker 2: member is a silent a silent duress because you don't

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Speaker 2: want to escalate that situation further. And we agree with

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Speaker 2: that approach. However, we think that the way that they're

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Speaker 2: responding to those JURISS systems is not adequate. And then

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Speaker 2: the team leader would like a little page to let

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Speaker 2: her know or him know that our JURISS has been

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Speaker 2: raised in their in their department and it's not that's

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Speaker 2: not a big ask.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Look, Katie, you've obviously spoken a lot about the

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Speaker 1: different incidents that our nurses and midwives are dealing with,

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Speaker 1: and you've talked about some of the changes that could

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Speaker 1: come into place. Just from a real sort of practical sense,

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Speaker 1: what a nurse is saying to you, like how worried

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Speaker 1: are they at the moment about some of the issues

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Speaker 1: that they're dealing with with that safety.

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Speaker 2: It's crazy. Like the report I put in the media

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Speaker 2: said that that nurse has various concerns that someone will

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Speaker 2: be stabbed or that they will take their own lives.

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Speaker 2: And these are the concerns, and I think as this unfold,

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Speaker 2: we will hear so many more concerns. Right people are

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Speaker 2: responding and saying yes, they are worried about these things. Sometimes,

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Speaker 2: as I said earlier, that they will just leave if

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Speaker 2: they're so worried for their own factory, they just leave

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Speaker 2: that department or that the profession entirely is. But people

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Speaker 2: are worried every day. You know, people are worried about weapons.

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Speaker 2: People are worried about the increase of ice who are

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Speaker 2: worried that anti police are bringing people that they've arrested

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Speaker 2: into the ED first because they have serious medical conditions

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Speaker 2: that can't be seen at the watchhouse. But then the

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Speaker 2: anti police are not staying with that patient. Like, there's

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Speaker 2: just the risks everywhere at all times, and I can't

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Speaker 2: imagine how these nurses even function. They must be on

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Speaker 2: the alert at all times. And though there's a there's

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Speaker 2: an inidant waiting to be happened at all times.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, look that is there is so much of what

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Speaker 1: you've just said to me there that I find concerning.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the you know, the use of weapons. Are

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Speaker 1: are you, like, are our nurses seeing an increase in

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Speaker 1: the number of people that are coming into ED that

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Speaker 1: have got weapons on them?

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Speaker 2: I have been hearing that from members that there has

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Speaker 2: been an increase in weapons and we don't really have

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Speaker 2: a great system of either finding these weapons on people

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Speaker 2: until a nurse might find susans in a pocket and

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Speaker 2: most people are willing to have and over that item,

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Speaker 2: but that is still frightening to that person because knowing

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Speaker 2: that they have come into that space with that weapon

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Speaker 2: and it's normal. We're in the territory to have people

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Speaker 2: have some weapons that are not acceptable in town, but

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Speaker 2: our maybe if you were wanting to animal, maybe that

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Speaker 2: would be acceptable. So that person may not Yeah, the

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Speaker 2: person may not always be aware that that's considered a weapon,

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Speaker 2: but that is that is scary for the person on

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Speaker 2: the receiving end of that.

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Speaker 1: Oh, it absolutely is. And then you touched on the

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Speaker 1: ice shoes. So I mean that's something that we hear

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Speaker 1: anecdotally that you know that that there is that increase

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Speaker 1: or it seems like there's more people using ice from

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Speaker 1: you know, from the nurses in the emergency department. Do

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Speaker 1: they feel as though that is a concern.

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Speaker 2: When I've asked about what is the concern? This was

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Speaker 2: one of the issues raised. I haven't heard, haven't had

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Speaker 2: the whole eed department putting all of their sorts together.

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Speaker 2: That's what the steps are next we call these issues

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Speaker 2: widely deeply felt issues to try to collate that data

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Speaker 2: on the most common themes. So I have heard, I

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Speaker 2: have been that is increased. So I believe I tend

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Speaker 2: to believe things that I'm told in this form, but

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Speaker 2: I can't quantify that necessarily, and there might be other

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Speaker 2: bigger themes that come out. I strongly suspect that the

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Speaker 2: capacity problem where we just have a constant overload of

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Speaker 2: patients in the emergency department at all times, we can't

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Speaker 2: get patients through to other boards. We sort of have

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Speaker 2: this stagnated sequence of events. So I think that all

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Speaker 2: of these pressures lead to and then long wait times

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Speaker 2: as it's just escalating people that have a tendency to

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Speaker 2: lash out and be violent.

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Speaker 1: So Heidi, at the moment, you are sort of seeking

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Speaker 1: more feedback as well from nurses and midwives that were

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Speaker 1: need to really sort of put together all of that information.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we are. Look, I think we were restarting our

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Speaker 2: sort of way that we interact with members, and I'll

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Speaker 2: be having a lot to do with ED in particular,

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Speaker 2: but we're putting we will be putting out more requests

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Speaker 2: for information from Greater Union members in other places, because

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Speaker 2: that has also been mentioned. And I know my I'm

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Speaker 2: from Alice Springs, and I know the emergency department has

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Speaker 2: been asking for a perspect glass barrier between the patients

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Speaker 2: and the triage nursers. Now you're thinking, surely you have that. No,

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Speaker 2: I tell you they do not have that. They have

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Speaker 2: a piece of wire string to stop people throwing weapons

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Speaker 2: and throwing things through. Now, part of the problem to

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Speaker 2: resolve this is about audio and not being able to

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Speaker 2: be heard. But I strongly just sometimes just baffled that

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Speaker 2: we're not going for the safety first. Okay, seems so

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Speaker 2: crazy that I'm saying this out loud now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Like to me, I'm thinking of our bus drivers

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Speaker 1: that have got those screens up now because it's unsafe

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Speaker 1: for them. And I know, totally different industries, but you go, well,

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Speaker 1: if we're in a situation where our bus drivers have

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Speaker 1: got those screens to keep them safe, surely our nurses,

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Speaker 1: our triage nurse would require that as well. When you're

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Speaker 1: dealing with patients in emergency. And I know that you

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Speaker 1: you know, we all hope that they don't have to

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Speaker 1: be in an unsafe situation or something doesn't have to

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Speaker 1: happen for that screen to go up, But to me,

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Speaker 1: it really seems like common sense that it should be

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Speaker 1: there already.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I totally agree. It defies logic, and I do wonder,

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Speaker 2: you know, are we waiting for a really bad event

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Speaker 2: to happen and we've just had one on the weekend?

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Speaker 2: You know, how bad does it have to get before

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Speaker 2: we're going to really start taking this seriously spot on?

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Speaker 1: Look, Heidi, I really appreciate your time this morning. I

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Speaker 1: think it's really important for people to have that understand

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Speaker 1: of what our nurses are dealing with in the emergency

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Speaker 1: department and more broadly across the Northern Territory. So we

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Speaker 1: will no doubt talk to you again very soon, and

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Speaker 1: I hope that we see some pretty immediate change when

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Speaker 1: it comes to some of these safety measures that sound

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Speaker 1: like they're really very practical and common sense to me.

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Speaker 2: I agree. Thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 1: Good to talk to you this morning, Heidi. Thank you