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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now thinking about what you want for your kid. Listen

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Speaker 2: when you're trying to know who you are anchoring it

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Speaker 2: and what motivates you is the most important part.

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Speaker 3: That's who you are.

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Speaker 1: And now he is the stars of our show, My

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Speaker 1: mom and Dad.

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Speaker 4: Hello, this is Justin Coilson, joined as always by my

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Speaker 4: wife and co host, missus Happy Families. You might know

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Speaker 4: who as Clytie. We've had two really inspiring conversations over

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Speaker 4: the last couple of weeks with Todd Rose. He's an author,

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Speaker 4: He's been a Harvard professor at the Graduate School of Education,

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Speaker 4: and these days he runs a think tank in the

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Speaker 4: US called Populous.

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Speaker 3: It's all about helping.

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Speaker 4: People achieve fulfillment in their lives through being excellent what

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Speaker 4: lights them up, rather than getting the best results they

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Speaker 4: could have at school, because let's face at school isn't

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Speaker 4: always the best indicator of how we're going to go

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Speaker 4: with the rest of our lives. And in our last

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Speaker 4: conversation we talked a bit about how we can help

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Speaker 4: our children to maybe get off the standardized path and

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Speaker 4: tap into what lights them up. But you, Kylie sort

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Speaker 4: of said, you want to do something personal here. You

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Speaker 4: want to get a little bit, a little bit into

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Speaker 4: the guts of this. So I'm going to stop talking.

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Speaker 4: You've got a handful of questions for Todd, and I'm

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Speaker 4: just going to be quiet and listen to this conversation unfold.

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Speaker 5: I'd like to see that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not going to happen to Thanks for joining

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Speaker 4: us again, Todd.

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Speaker 5: As I've been reading this book, you know, you have

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Speaker 5: just dark Horse is just full of all of these

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Speaker 5: amazing people who have you know, transformed their lives as

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Speaker 5: they've recognized that the standardized path that you know they

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Speaker 5: may have been on is not actually the one that

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Speaker 5: was lighting them up.

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Speaker 4: And usually not as kids or as teenagers or even

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Speaker 4: young adults, They've usually made these transformations as mature adults.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: And so for me, I've been a stay at home

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Speaker 5: for the last twenty plus years, and many times throughout

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Speaker 5: that time, I've kind of tapped into, I guess some

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Speaker 5: of the things that motivate me to help kind of

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Speaker 5: bring in a little bit of extra cash. While Justin

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Speaker 5: was studying for all of those years, we needed, you know,

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Speaker 5: a little bit of extra support, and so I've tapped

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Speaker 5: into some of the things that I really love. But

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Speaker 5: now I'm at this point where I've got three children

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Speaker 5: who are pretty much independent, doing their own thing, and

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Speaker 5: I've got three children on their way up, and I

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Speaker 5: can see them in the next few years, life's going

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Speaker 5: to open up for me in a completely different way.

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Speaker 5: But the thought of actually going down that standardized pass,

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Speaker 5: starting at the very beginning, joining in the study sessions

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Speaker 5: with the seventeen and eighteen year olds who've just finished

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Speaker 5: high school and then competing for a job with them,

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Speaker 5: seems are really daunting and actually unmotivating. It's leaving, you know,

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Speaker 5: left me kind of going, well, you know, what's the point.

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Speaker 5: There's no way someone's going to look at me as

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Speaker 5: a you know, almost fifty year old and go, yeah,

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Speaker 5: I'm going to pick you over the eighteen year old

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Speaker 5: who's got longevity. So, you know, can you talk to

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Speaker 5: us a little bit about these micromotives that you talk

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Speaker 5: about in the book and how I can utilize that

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Speaker 5: as a mum and tap into them to find I guess,

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Speaker 5: fulfillment in my life moving forward.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I mean, so, first of all, I mean

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Speaker 3: it's fantastic.

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Speaker 2: And one of the things that I have to say,

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Speaker 2: like we say hundreds and hundreds of people from all

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Speaker 2: walks of life, and it's just we tend to think

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Speaker 2: that this is like a young person's game.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think we're basically the same age.

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Speaker 2: And it's like, you know, but like you just can't

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Speaker 2: believe the number of like people would make these amazing

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Speaker 2: pivots in their forties, fifties, even sixties and then go

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Speaker 2: on to accomplish things that the world would just be

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Speaker 2: worse off if they hadn't. So it's like, like, but

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Speaker 2: you're getting to an important point, which is when we think, okay,

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Speaker 2: what's next for me, it's hard to see anything other

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Speaker 2: than the standard path, right, and you think, okay, so

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Speaker 2: I've got to go do that, But listen, that actually

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Speaker 2: might turn out to be what you want to do.

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Speaker 2: But there's a way to get to that point, right.

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Speaker 2: And so for me, like starting with understanding your own

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Speaker 2: what we call micromotives is critical because while you need

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Speaker 2: to understand other things like making choices and strategies and

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Speaker 2: ignoring that destination, if you.

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Speaker 3: Don't get the motives right, you can get to success.

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Speaker 2: But you're not getting to fulfillment, right, And so the

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Speaker 2: thing that's interesting to me is with the standardization.

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Speaker 3: We've even standardized motives, right.

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Speaker 2: We literally in academia we argue over what the prime

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Speaker 2: motive is for everybody, or there's a small constellation that

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Speaker 2: are supposed to be universal. What we found over and

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Speaker 2: over again is what really drove people was so individual.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I got to tell you, like, there are

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Speaker 2: things that people like we're genuinely motivated by eyes Like

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Speaker 2: there's just no way like that cannot be motivating.

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Speaker 3: Example, and like.

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Speaker 2: One guy literally like the primary motive, the thing that

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Speaker 2: he could not live without was aligning physical objects with

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Speaker 2: his hands. That is so specific, Like it is like

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Speaker 2: he's like when I think of one as like competition

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Speaker 2: and collaborate, like these gigantic things, and I'm like this

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Speaker 2: dude's like, listen, if I can't align physical objects in

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Speaker 2: my hands, I'm miserable.

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Speaker 4: Well, to let me ask you a question about that though.

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Speaker 4: How does a guy how does a guy discover that

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Speaker 4: that's his thing that he wants to align? What is

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Speaker 4: what is he actually doing here?

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Speaker 2: So this is the important thing, right, So if I

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Speaker 2: was going to say, like what's the starting point for

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Speaker 2: how you do this? Like, so, I think we all

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Speaker 2: recognize like the power of something like passion, right, But

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Speaker 2: passion is really just the activation of those micromotives by

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Speaker 2: an experience, right. So the mistake we make with passion

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Speaker 2: so like, for example, I love American football. Okay, so

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Speaker 2: I have a passion for American football. But what does

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Speaker 2: that mean?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 2: Like, there are dozens of reasons why all of us

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Speaker 2: could love that same thing, right, and they're not the same.

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Speaker 2: Is it that it's a team sport, is it that

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Speaker 2: it's outdoors, is it competition? Is it the strategy?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 2: So, what you do is if you spend a little

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Speaker 2: bit of time and frankly the people I hear from

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Speaker 2: all the time. Now, if you do this for a

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Speaker 2: couple of weeks, start listing to things that you are

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Speaker 2: passionate about. Okay, but there's one more step, which is

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Speaker 2: start to like think for yourself, why why am I

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Speaker 2: passionate about this?

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Speaker 3: Like that?

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Speaker 2: Why is everything? Because let's say with American football, it

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Speaker 2: turns out I like collaborative sport and I like the strategy. Okay,

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Speaker 2: guess what when I can't play that sport anymore? The

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Speaker 2: motives are portable, right, I can understand how to make

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Speaker 2: the next choice right that it may not have anything

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Speaker 2: to do with football at all and still be fulfilled.

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Speaker 2: And that's what dark horses did, and they're so good

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Speaker 2: at it. And so this this gentleman, right, he was

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Speaker 2: a top engineer. He literally solved one of the like

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Speaker 2: intelecommunications one are these really really difficult problems. He found

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Speaker 2: that he got very little monetary reward for something that

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Speaker 2: he actually discovered. Middle management got a lot more than

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Speaker 2: he did, and he was frustrated, rightly, so he said, well,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to be a manager. Well, if you know him,

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Speaker 2: that was like the worst possible, like this like the

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Speaker 2: opposite of fit.

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Speaker 5: Right, But that's that idea of climbing up the letter right.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, he's like, well, I got to do this right.

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Speaker 2: And so pretty soon he finds himself out of a

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Speaker 2: job because he was so bad at the right and

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Speaker 2: he's bouncing around and so here's what he ends up. Right,

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Speaker 2: He is now the top upholstery repair person in New

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Speaker 2: York City now right, because because here's the thing nowhere,

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Speaker 2: if you're going to like a job like guru, who's like, well,

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Speaker 2: me understand would they pair up engineering and a pulsary repair.

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Speaker 2: But what you realize is a pulsary repair is like

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Speaker 2: dealing with family heirlooms and leather and actually requires alignment. Way,

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Speaker 2: and he is so unbelievably happy and doing so well. Right,

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Speaker 2: But like unless you understand that, next click down, which

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Speaker 2: is why am I passionate about these things, what you'll

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Speaker 2: find is you'll start to realize there's a lot of commonality. Right,

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Speaker 2: it's not infinite, but but don't be afraid to go

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Speaker 2: down these very very specific things, right. And it's like

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Speaker 2: you'll see time after time if you can start to

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Speaker 2: figure that out, and you won't be perfect at it,

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Speaker 2: like you'll learn.

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Speaker 4: Right And when you say you learn, you mean you

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Speaker 4: make mistakes. You'll you'll find absolutely, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Of course you will. Right, of course you will. In fact,

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Speaker 2: like there really isn't like it's trial and error. And

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Speaker 2: once you get that, once you recognize that that there

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Speaker 2: is no there's only so much you can learn from

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Speaker 2: other people telling you who you should be. Right, So

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Speaker 2: what you got to do is just get on that path,

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Speaker 2: make good choices and and and in the book, we

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Speaker 2: talked a lot about like how dark horses made choices

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Speaker 2: that really like mitigated the catastrophic down side of a

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Speaker 2: bad choice while leaving open all the upside of a

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Speaker 2: good one.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I love that concept, and I'm telling you I've

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Speaker 5: started my list of micromotives. I really you know, tapping

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Speaker 5: into the things that motivate me and the things that

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Speaker 5: light me up. And I guess you know, one of

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Speaker 5: the other things that really stood out as I was

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Speaker 5: reading was just this acknowledgment that we're kind of constantly evolving.

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Speaker 5: So while there was something that motivated me twenty years ago,

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Speaker 5: it doesn't necessarily motivate me in the same way now.

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Speaker 5: But that has led to other strengths and the passions

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Speaker 5: that have developed as a result. So I love that

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Speaker 5: idea of evolution. I think that's really powerful.

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Speaker 3: It is a guarantee.

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Speaker 2: While the motives are more indelible, like they're not fleeting, right,

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Speaker 2: they're durable and you can build on them. But even

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Speaker 2: the act of being successful at these things can change

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Speaker 2: the motives that matter most to you. And so rather

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Speaker 2: than feeling like, oh, I finally found this theme that

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Speaker 2: really I'm passionate about, people get they grab onto it

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Speaker 2: right as if they're hoping that that will carry them

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Speaker 2: all the way through their life. And then what happens, right, like,

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Speaker 2: suddenly it's no longer fulfilling and you have this midlife

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Speaker 2: crisis of like, what's going on? But if you recognize

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Speaker 2: that it's always a process and that if it starts

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Speaker 2: to like wane and you're like, wait, I'm not as

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Speaker 2: interested in this, it's time to check back in.

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Speaker 3: Right, it's like, what's changed? Have my motives changed? Right?

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Speaker 3: I love?

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Speaker 4: I love what you're saying right there, because I resonate

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Speaker 4: with it at a personal level. I wanted to be

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Speaker 4: a radio DJ because I wanted to communicate, and I

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Speaker 4: learned a lot about the art of communication, or at

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Speaker 4: least the art of broadcast, you know, the art of

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Speaker 4: getting a message across when I was in radio. But

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Speaker 4: by the time I was in my late twenties, the

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Speaker 4: whole radio industry seemed shallow and superficial, and I didn't

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Speaker 4: want to be part of it anymore. And that's when

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Speaker 4: I went back to school and did psychology because I

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Speaker 4: was interested in that and I loved it. But while

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Speaker 4: I was there, and I started doing lecturing as a

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Speaker 4: graduate student, you know, and I'm lecturing the first years

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Speaker 4: through to the mass A students and running tutorial classes.

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Speaker 4: I tapped back into that concept or that thing where

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Speaker 4: I'm communicating, I'm sharing knowledge. I'm opening my mouth and broadcasting,

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Speaker 4: if you will. And I remember going home to color

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Speaker 4: and saying, this is what lights me up. I feel

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Speaker 4: like I've seen this continuity of you know, these these

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Speaker 4: micro motives, thank you. I've read the book, but I

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Speaker 4: just went blank for a sec. These micro motives, these strengths,

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Speaker 4: if you will. I'm seeing them continue a bit in

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Speaker 4: a different context. And what I'm really passionate about is

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Speaker 4: helping families be happy. I learned how to communicate in radio.

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Speaker 4: I'm feeling the fulfillment that comes from that in the

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Speaker 4: university context. But the area that I'm most interested in

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Speaker 4: communicating is helping families be happy. And so everything that

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Speaker 4: you're saying, I've actually lived it, and I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I feel like I'm supposed to say amen, and you

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Speaker 4: know I'm right there with you.

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Speaker 3: But think about this. You hear this story after story

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Speaker 3: like this, and yet for most people.

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Speaker 2: We've been taught that that's not supposed to be how

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Speaker 2: it is, and it's risky to do that right, and

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Speaker 2: it's safe to pursue somebody else's vision of success.

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Speaker 3: And nothing could be further from the truth. Right.

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Speaker 2: So, when you're thinking about as moms, like think about

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Speaker 2: what you want for your kid, Listen, when you're trying

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Speaker 2: to know who you are, like, anchoring it in what

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Speaker 2: motivates you is the most important part. That's who you are, right,

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Speaker 2: and helping kids like think how many times when your

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Speaker 2: kids come home from school, like, you know, how is

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Speaker 2: school fine?

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Speaker 3: What'd you do? You know? Do we even bother to

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Speaker 3: ask them like, hey, what did you enjoy it? And

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Speaker 3: why did you enjoy it?

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Speaker 2: You will be shocked at how good these kids are,

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Speaker 2: even young kids, at tapping into that, get them in

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Speaker 2: the habit of actually thinking about the why behind what

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Speaker 2: matters to them, and more importantly, model it for them right,

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Speaker 2: explain it to them like this is I think the

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Speaker 2: most important thing you could do for your young kids.

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Speaker 5: I love it. Yeah, two lines out of your book

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Speaker 5: that really jumped out at me kind of I guess

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Speaker 5: going to become one new mantra as I go through

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Speaker 5: this journey of finding out what really really motivates me

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Speaker 5: moving forward, this is who I truly am and this

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Speaker 5: is where I'm headed, and I love it. There's so

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Speaker 5: much power in that.

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Speaker 4: So to take home message, because we do need to

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Speaker 4: wrap this up. It's been so You've been so wonderful

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Speaker 4: talking to us the last few weeks and sharing these

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Speaker 4: insights in the book dark Horse. What you're really saying

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Speaker 4: is take the pressure off your kids and let them

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Speaker 4: work out who they are. Or if you're a mom

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Speaker 4: or a dad who's trying to work out what you

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Speaker 4: really want to do with your life, stop following the

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Speaker 4: standard route. Tap into your real passions, your real strengths,

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Speaker 4: those micromotives.

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Speaker 5: I understand that there will be pitfalls along the way

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Speaker 5: as learning that.

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Speaker 4: Takes place in you, and you're going to fail. But

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Speaker 4: if you pursue what fulfills you and forget about all

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Speaker 4: the other stuff, it's going to work out in the end,

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Speaker 4: and it's going to work out so much better.

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Speaker 3: It will. And this is not like follow your bliss

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Speaker 3: off a cliff. Right.

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Speaker 2: The thing that I found so instructive from dark Horses

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Speaker 2: is that this set of things that they know that

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Speaker 2: make it a reliable, safe path, right, and you know,

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Speaker 2: even something like and I'll say like in terms of

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Speaker 2: how they made choices. That was one of the things

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Speaker 2: that was so interesting to me, which was like, listen,

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Speaker 2: it can't sound cool, Well, yeah, follow, what's fulfilling to you?

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Speaker 3: Well guess what?

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Speaker 2: Like I was raising two little kids, it sounds like

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Speaker 2: we're in a similar boat. When you've got kids you're

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Speaker 2: trying to go to school. Like, yeah, that's cool. There's

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Speaker 2: a lot of stuff that I would have loved to

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Speaker 2: have done that it just isn't in the cards. So

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Speaker 2: one of the things that I think was so interesting

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Speaker 2: from Dark Horses is when they made choices, it was

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Speaker 2: like a two step process.

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Speaker 3: Of the options you have.

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Speaker 2: They're almost never equal in terms of how good of

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Speaker 2: a fit they are to what really lights you up. Right, So,

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Speaker 2: but then the question is could you live with the

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Speaker 2: worst case scenario if you make that choice. If the

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Speaker 2: answer is yes, then do it right. If the answer

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Speaker 2: is no, then move on to the next one that

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Speaker 2: is the next second best in terms of fulfillment.

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Speaker 3: But you can live with the worst case now.

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Speaker 2: So, like there were people in the book that literally

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Speaker 2: were able to pack up everything they had, moved to

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Speaker 2: England and live in a hut to get the kind

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Speaker 2: of training they needed. Right, But they didn't have kids, right,

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Speaker 2: it would be irresponsible if I did something like that

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Speaker 2: with with with mouths to feed, right and so like.

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Speaker 2: It's not that it has to be perfect, but in

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Speaker 2: every single person's life, you always have choices, and those

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Speaker 2: choices are not equal in terms of their potential for

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Speaker 2: fulfillment the power of choice.

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Speaker 5: Todd, we are so grateful for your time today. Thank

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Speaker 5: you so much for spending and being so generous with

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Speaker 5: the things that you shared with us. I hope that,

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Speaker 5: I hope there's something out of what we shared today.

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Speaker 4: I just hope everyone dark horse and reads it with

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Speaker 4: their kids. That's that's it for me. I know Todd

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Speaker 4: probably would like that too.

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Speaker 2: Now I'm hoping, and we're now that we're friends, I'm

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Speaker 2: hoping that we get past all the pandemic and someday

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Speaker 2: we'll see each other in Australia.

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Speaker 3: How's that. I'd love that. That'd be great.

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Speaker 4: Well, once again some brilliant insight from Todd Rose. And

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Speaker 4: if you missed our previous two conversations with Todd, make

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Speaker 4: sure that you jump back into the archive and look

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Speaker 4: them up. We'll make sure that we linked them in

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Speaker 4: the show notes. As we mentioned Todd is the author

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Speaker 4: of the book Dark Horse, that was my Book of

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Speaker 4: the Year in twenty nineteen, as well as The End

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Speaker 4: of Average, which was my Book of the Year in

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Speaker 4: twenty eighteen, as well as one called Square Peg. I'm

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Speaker 4: yet to read that one, but I'm pretty keen to

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Speaker 4: get into it. He's the co founder of think tank

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Speaker 4: Populous and also the president there. And my name is

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Speaker 4: doctor Justin Coulson. If you've enjoyed the podcast, we would

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Speaker 4: love for you to visit Apple Podcasts and leave a

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Speaker 4: rating and review. It's the reviews that help people to

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Speaker 4: find the podcast and have happier families. As always produced

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Speaker 4: by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media, and our executive producer

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Speaker 4: is Craig Bruce. If you'd like more info about making

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Speaker 4: your family happy, please visit happyfamilies dot com dot au.