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Speaker 1: Good morning and welcome to your long weekend Monday. Given

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Speaker 1: that it is a day off, we thought that we

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Speaker 1: would celebrate the day with a bit of a different

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Speaker 1: podcast for you. So today we are speaking to the

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Speaker 1: FBI about Operation I Inside. That's not something I ever

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Speaker 1: thought I would be saying out loud, but here we are.

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Speaker 1: We spoke to FBI International Operations Division Legal ATTACHEE four

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Speaker 1: camera Anthony Russo about the operation that used cool tech,

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Speaker 1: cool collaboration and had some pretty major implications for Australian

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Speaker 1: law enforcement. If you, like me, have never heard the

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Speaker 1: term legal attachhae that I am probably pronouncing wrong. The

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Speaker 1: attachae is basically the FBI's representation around the world. So

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Speaker 1: Anthony represents the FBI in Australia specifically, and there are

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Speaker 1: many people like him across the world. Here's Sam speaking

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Speaker 1: to Anthony Russo.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us, Anthony. So the

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Speaker 2: first question I have is how has your week been.

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Speaker 3: I feel great, It's been a busy week week, but

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Speaker 3: a busy week for me is really nothing in comparison

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Speaker 3: to the hundreds of men and women work in this

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Speaker 3: case that have put in three years worth of really

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Speaker 3: busy weeks, so it's been a breeze for me. Comparatively speaking.

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Speaker 2: Have you been involved in Operation Insight since its inception?

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Speaker 2: Do you know much about the beginnings of Operation Inside.

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Speaker 3: I have been involved in this case since my arrival

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Speaker 3: here in Canberra last July when I became the legal

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Speaker 3: attache here and I took over the running of the office.

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Speaker 3: I haven't been involved with it from the beginning.

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Speaker 2: And what's your role as a legal attache?

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Speaker 3: Sure, that's a great question. I am the FBI directors

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Speaker 3: Representative to Australia and New Zealand and the Pacific. There

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Speaker 3: are seventy or so FBI legal attaches around the world,

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Speaker 3: and I run a fairly large office here with some

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Speaker 3: assistant legal attaches and other personnel. And our job is

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Speaker 3: to represent the FBI's interests in a way way that

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Speaker 3: are consistent with US government strategy, strengthening the alliance between

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Speaker 3: Australia and the United States and collaborating with our host

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Speaker 3: country partners, as was most prominently on display this week

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Speaker 3: with our relationship with the Australian Federal Police.

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Speaker 2: And so when you talk about that collaboration aspect does

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Speaker 2: something like an Operation eInsight and I'm sure there's many

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Speaker 2: other projects happening concurrently. Does that come out of regular

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Speaker 2: meetings and interactions between the two bodies, or is it

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Speaker 2: a case of somebody approaching the FBI or vice versa,

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Speaker 2: saying this is happening across borders, we need to work

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Speaker 2: on this together.

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Speaker 3: It's quite firmly in the category of the former. This

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Speaker 3: is really the only kind of case that can be

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Speaker 3: worked as a result of a natural evolution of enduring

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Speaker 3: partnership that has been invested in and built through trust

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Speaker 3: and respect over decades. This is not the kind of

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Speaker 3: case that agencies and work as one offs. This is

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Speaker 3: the kind of case that really only happens because AFP

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Speaker 3: personnel and FBI personnel are integrated daily. I have lovely

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Speaker 3: offices here in the embassy that my folks occupy, but

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Speaker 3: most of the time their offices are empty because they're

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Speaker 3: sitting at their desks in Australian government buildings, whether it's

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Speaker 3: with AFP or other agencies, because we do cooperate with

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Speaker 3: Australian partners, like you said, across the spectrum of national

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Speaker 3: security and criminal threats.

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Speaker 2: And do you think that's a product of the increasingly

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Speaker 2: globalized nature of organized crime or do you think it's

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Speaker 2: been that way since, you know, the conclusion of the

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Speaker 2: two world wars.

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Speaker 3: I think it started with investments in international partnerships decades

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Speaker 3: and decades ago, and my predecessors and Commissioner Kurshow's predecessors

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Speaker 3: really formed the foundations for the cooperation that's on display today.

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Speaker 3: But over the years, we have all learned that cooperation

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Speaker 3: with each other is not just the best option to

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Speaker 3: come together on these kinds of cases, it's genuinely the

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Speaker 3: only option if we really want to fulfill our obligation

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Speaker 3: to the taxpayers that pay our salaries, right, I mean

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Speaker 3: your taxpayer. All of us pay taxes. You want to

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Speaker 3: know where that money's going, and you want to know

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Speaker 3: that your law enforcement and other services are doing the

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Speaker 3: best job they can. And collaboration with other law enforcement

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Speaker 3: agencies is a genuine force multiplier throughout the world, and

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Speaker 3: the technologies become increasingly more complex, and not every organization

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Speaker 3: has the same level of expertise, so being able to

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Speaker 3: collaborate and share that level expertise really just gets us

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Speaker 3: the best outcomes.

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Speaker 2: And so, what were the factors that went into concluding

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Speaker 2: the operation at this time?

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Speaker 3: Sure, that's a great question, right, and it's relatively complex.

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Speaker 3: But the short answer is, every long investigation has to

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Speaker 3: come to a logical conclusion. They can't just go in perpetuity.

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Speaker 3: In the case of this one, there were complicated legal

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Speaker 3: authorities in different parts of the world that different agencies

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Speaker 3: used to collect the things that we were collecting, and

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Speaker 3: those kinds of legal authorities always have an end date,

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Speaker 3: and law enforcement agencies either have to re up those

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Speaker 3: authorities or terminate their collections. This has been going on

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Speaker 3: for three years. The resourcing required to contemporaneously monitor ultimately

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Speaker 3: what turned out to be twenty five million individual messages

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Speaker 3: in forty five languages is a very complex and resource

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Speaker 3: intensive task. Throughout the course of the three years, we

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Speaker 3: have been engaging in deliberate law enforcement actions which have

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Speaker 3: resulted in the mitigation of threats to life. It has

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Speaker 3: resulted in the seizures of large amounts of narcotics and

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Speaker 3: precursor chemicals to make methamphetamine. So every time, you know,

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Speaker 3: we engage in those activities, and the longer the case

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Speaker 3: goes on, you're increasing the risk that the case is

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Speaker 3: going to be compromised. So everybody got together and decided

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Speaker 3: on a plan to take the case down by our

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Speaker 3: own deliberate actions at a place in time of our

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Speaker 3: choosing and under the most safe circumstances, not just for

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Speaker 3: the men and women involved on the law enforcement and

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Speaker 3: of whom there were nine thousand, frankly in the last

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Speaker 3: couple of days, there's nine thousand cops around the world

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Speaker 3: doing this work, but also for the soon to be

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Speaker 3: defendants and equally importantly, And we don't talk about this

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Speaker 3: a lot, but I've been in FBI leadership a long time,

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Speaker 3: and I've been engaged in a lot of planning for

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Speaker 3: a lot of operations, and we do take a lot

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Speaker 3: of time to talk about the neighborhoods in which these

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Speaker 3: activities are happening, and how do we do our jobs

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Speaker 3: and keep the neighborhoods as safe as possible. That's oftentimes

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Speaker 3: why we do this work early in the morning, because

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Speaker 3: most people are still safe in their homes, people are

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Speaker 3: not commit to work, children are not at bus stops

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Speaker 3: going to school, and it's just a safer environment for everybody.

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Speaker 3: One of the strategic objectives of the investigation was really

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Speaker 3: to just get the message out there to the criminal

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Speaker 3: organizations that your encrypted communications on which you have been

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Speaker 3: relying so heavily are not as secure as you once

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Speaker 3: thought they were. And I think that message should be

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Speaker 3: reverberating out for the community of networks, even those that

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Speaker 3: were not using our network. There's other networks out there,

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Speaker 3: so they really should be asking themselves, if the FBI

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Speaker 3: and the AFP and others did this case, what else

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Speaker 3: are they actively doing and what's it going to mean

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Speaker 3: for me and my organization in the years ahead.

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Speaker 2: Picking up on that last point, do you feel like

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Speaker 2: it's a little bit of a game of lackamole from

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Speaker 2: now that this app is no longer in operation to

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Speaker 2: catch organized crime where it next pops up? Or do

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Speaker 2: you truly believe that this is a historic moment for

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Speaker 2: the use of technology and organized crime.

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Speaker 3: It is a historic moment for the use of technology

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Speaker 3: to combat organized crime. I've said this in other venues,

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Speaker 3: but any organization has to be able to communicate with

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Speaker 3: its members to be able to function. Right. We're all

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Speaker 3: members of organizations in one way or another. They just

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Speaker 3: happen to be engaged in illegal activity and all of

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Speaker 3: those communications can't happen one on one and in person.

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Speaker 3: They have to happen through some electronic communication device or platform.

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Speaker 3: So this case, the results, the enormous attention that's been

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Speaker 3: given to working this case over the course of three years,

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Speaker 3: and the amount of knowledge, skills and experience on the

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Speaker 3: technical end from the men and women who don't get

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Speaker 3: the thanks every day that they should, the employees of

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Speaker 3: AFP and FBI and others. It just makes us better.

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Speaker 3: We strive as an organization. Our director FBI Director Ray

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Speaker 3: talks about four pillars of his expectations for the FBI

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Speaker 3: and its leadership, people, process, innovation, and partnerships. Maybe not

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Speaker 3: necessarily in that order, but we look at this case.

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Speaker 3: We've got a lot of resolute employees in our organizations

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Speaker 3: that go to work every day trying to get better

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Speaker 3: at their profession. That's a long way to say, yeah,

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Speaker 3: this is going to have a serious impact on the

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Speaker 3: way we come back organized crime in the years ahead.

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Speaker 3: We might not always be ahead every minute of the day,

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Speaker 3: but we're working hard to get there.

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Speaker 2: Statistics suggests that most, if not all, millennials use some

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Speaker 2: sort of encrypted app to communicate. WhatsApp user for example,

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Speaker 2: as highlighted this week, not all encrypted apps what they

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Speaker 2: say they are is there a role for encrypted apps

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Speaker 2: in our society.

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Speaker 3: Societies have to determine that for themselves. Societies like you, yours,

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Speaker 3: and mine are self governing. So this is not a

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Speaker 3: conversation necessarily for law enforcem agencies to have we enforce

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Speaker 3: the laws that our citizens decide they want to have, right.

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Speaker 3: This is really a conversation for you and your listeners

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Speaker 3: to really talk about the balance between my civil liberties

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Speaker 3: and my privacy versus how safe I want to be

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Speaker 3: from terrorism, from organized crime, from predatory behavior on children,

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Speaker 3: and all of those things happen over the same kinds

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Speaker 3: of electronic platforms that legitimate communications have. I've been in

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Speaker 3: the FBI almost twenty five years, and we have this

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Speaker 3: conversation all the time about the balance of civil liberties

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Speaker 3: and individual security, and that's really a question that societies

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Speaker 3: have to ask for themselves and elect their representatives that

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Speaker 3: represent those interests.

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Speaker 2: It's a fascinating debate that always spikes up interest on

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Speaker 2: our social platforms and privacy and reconciling the notion of

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Speaker 2: privacy with security is a question that our generation will

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Speaker 2: continue to grapple with, and I think that's fascinating. Anthony

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Speaker 2: I've got one more question for you before we wrap up.

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Speaker 2: We speak to a lot of people who are choosing

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Speaker 2: which careers to go into, and something that's really stood

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Speaker 2: out to me this week has been the idea that

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Speaker 2: the hero behind this investigation and this sting is not

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Speaker 2: a typical law enforcement as we think about them in

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Speaker 2: pop culture, but it's actually a software engineer, and it's

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Speaker 2: actually part of the tech side of things. Do you

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Speaker 2: see the role of software engineering, coding, computer programming, in

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Speaker 2: technology as a vital skill of anyone looking to insert

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Speaker 2: themselves into law enforcement and international security?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, our law enforcement agencies have to represent the communities

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Speaker 3: that we serve. So just to kind of bring some

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Speaker 3: context to that discussion, the FBI is in an organization

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Speaker 3: of roughly thirty six and employees. Only about twelve five

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Speaker 3: hundred of us are special agents. The balance of the

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Speaker 3: FBI workforce are engineers, language specialists, analysts, you know, a

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Speaker 3: whole host of professions, not to mention all the forensic

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Speaker 3: folks that are laboratory. There's a whole host of career

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Speaker 3: opportunities for you and your listeners if you want to

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Speaker 3: pursue a career of service and you want to be

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Speaker 3: part of something bigger that makes your country better. I

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Speaker 3: can't recommend law enforcement anymore highly from a reward standpoint

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Speaker 3: and the impact, the actual impact that you have on communities.

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Speaker 3: So anybody who's sitting out there who might think I'm

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Speaker 3: not six foot tall and spend six hours a day

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Speaker 3: in the gym, so I'm not going to make a

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Speaker 3: good contribution to law enforcement, what I tell them is

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Speaker 3: that's rubbish. Everybody's got something to contribute. The diversity of

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Speaker 3: your background, the versity of your education, and your skill

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Speaker 3: set all makes the organizations much much stronger and much

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Speaker 3: better at serving our communities. So yeah, there's a big

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Speaker 3: role for technology in law enforcement and intelligence services as well.

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Speaker 3: I'll put in a plug for the intel services. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: don't sell yourself short, folks. Get out there and get

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Speaker 3: after it and use your skills because they're going to

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Speaker 3: be appreciated by your communities.

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Speaker 2: Those are the wise words of Anthony Russo from the FBI. Anthony,

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Speaker 2: thank you so much for your time.

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Speaker 3: Thanks very much. I appreciate it. Sam. It's nice talking

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Speaker 3: with you.

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Speaker 1: That's all we have time for today, and it's a

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Speaker 1: day off, so you should go out and enjoy the day.

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