WEBVTT - Wobbly Witnesses and New Suspects 0:00:02.600 --> 0:00:06.000 Just before nine o'clock last night, the jury returned guilty 0:00:06.080 --> 0:00:08.400 verdicts against all three defendants. 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:11.040 It was absolute shambles, to tell you the truth, just 0:00:11.119 --> 0:00:12.480 absolutely really colored. 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:15.120 Blood on his clothing the day after the alleged attemp. 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:16.880 On a shallow mud bank and the fitz Roy River. 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:19.160 Basically, I think most of the people are used to me, 0:00:19.239 --> 0:00:20.520 there are good people. 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:23.200 I think a really important question we need to ask 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:26.279 is how many Indigenous prisoners in Australia are innocent. 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:29.800 This is Curtain, a podcast where we pull back the 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:32.360 blinds to shine a light on the darkest parts of 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:36.160 our justice system and ask who are the victims. I'm 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:37.440 Amy Maguire. 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:41.080 And I'm Martin Hodgson, a senior advocate for the Foreign 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:45.360 Prisoner Support Service. Our producer is Paul Watts. Music by 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:49.800 Clint Curtis and produced in collaboration with the Brisbane Indigenous 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:54.880 Media Association and a warning. This series contains the names 0:00:54.880 --> 0:00:59.200 of deceased peoples and has distressing content that might upset 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:00.120 some listeners. 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:05.360 For the better part of the year, we've been trying 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:08.280 to piece together what happened on a Saturday night a 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:12.800 quarter of a century ago in Rockhampton Central Queensland. That 0:01:12.920 --> 0:01:16.760 night was August thirty, first, ninety nine one. It was 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:20.679 the last tragic hours of an Aboriginal woman named Linda's life, 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:24.280 a beautiful, accomplished mother of four who we have reason 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:28.399 to believe never received justice. Of course, there are several 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:30.840 reasons why it's hard to piece together the events of 0:01:30.840 --> 0:01:31.320 that night. 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:35.280 If you've been listening for the past nine weeks you 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:38.480 would know a few of them. One, there was a 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:42.479 great deal of alcohol consumed the night Linda died at 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:46.280 a place called Tenuba House, which literally sits on the 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:51.800 banks of the Fitzroy River. Two key witnesses who gave 0:01:51.880 --> 0:01:56.800 statements to police changed the details of their statements. Many 0:01:56.840 --> 0:02:01.280 were intoxicated when they gave those statements, and some gave 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:08.440 multiple statements. Three. The trial over Linda's death occurred one 0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:12.400 year after, and many of the witnesses on the stand 0:02:12.639 --> 0:02:17.200 not only had hazy memories but gave totally contradictory statements. 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:21.160 All of these reasons make it hard for us to 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:23.760 ascertain what really happened on that night. 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:27.680 But as we have told you over the past few months, 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:30.000 there are ways we can start to establish who may 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:33.280 be lying and who may be telling the truth. We've 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:35.760 been trying to piece together as semblance of fact in 0:02:35.800 --> 0:02:39.360 the witness statements. In this episode, we're going to go 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:41.960 back again to the night of Linda's death. 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:46.200 Now, we've told you that Linda was briefly assaulted by 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:50.040 three women that night, but a couple of weeks ago 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:53.880 we began to look into what happened directly after her assault. 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:57.239 We know that most of the people drinking it tone 0:02:57.360 --> 0:03:00.680 but that night left Linda lying near the steps of 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:04.639 the house and went to my alcohol at the Crown Hotel, 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:09.840 a short five minute walk away. Only two people stayed behind. 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:13.280 Now, we told you in episode eight that Kevin had 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:16.200 a very small window of opportunity to have done what 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:19.480 police alleged him to have done that night. It was 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:23.720 as small as fifteen to thirty minutes. In that timeframe, 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:26.760 Kevin was alleged to have dragged Linted to an area 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:31.000 called Root Valley, where he was then convicted of raping her, 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:33.239 then dragging her into the water where he got the 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:36.600 murder charge. But here is the thing. None of the 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:39.240 witnesses that night, even the two who stayed behind at 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:43.200 Tanuba the whole night, ever saw Kevin near Linda's body. 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:47.160 In fact, according to several witnesses, he went to the 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:48.480 Crown that night with all the. 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:52.200 Others Now, we did tell you there was only one 0:03:52.280 --> 0:03:56.960 witness who said Kevin wasn't at the Crown. We will 0:03:56.960 --> 0:03:59.640 call her s Now. Let me give you some background 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:04.320 on there. She was only young at the time, about eighteen. 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:12.240 This makes her particularly vulnerable. She was around adults, she 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:16.120 was around a lot of drinking and violence. She was 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:20.119 largely on her own at certain points, and it also 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:24.160 makes her vulnerable when it comes to dealing with the police. 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:27.240 A person at that age had not yet had a 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:31.599 great deal of exposure with these sort of events. She'd 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:36.599 witnessed something terribly tragic, but what would happen next would 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:41.240 lead to a lot of problems. She'd become highly unreliable. 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:45.479 Despite this, s was obviously seen as a key witness, 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:47.960 and we know this because she was one of the 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:51.599 few witnesses extensively covered by the local media at the time. 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:55.640 In fact, this is how Channel nine sensationally reported her statement. 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:06.400 A trial has heard that a man accused of raping 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:09.839 and murdering a Rockhampton woman had blood on his clothing 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:11.800 the day after the alleged attack. 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:15.200 Day witnessed and recounted a conversation with the accused at 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:18.400 the hostel the damous body was found. He said he 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:21.160 raped her and stuck an iron bar in her throat, 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:24.279 and she told how Henry had blood on his shirt. 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:29.040 If you were listening to that news clip, it would 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:32.039 sound very, very bad for Kevin. But the reality is 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:37.359 those short news clips were completely unethical because s statement 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:42.320 completely fell apart in cross examination. In fact, this is 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:46.240 what she said during cross examination. I will read out 0:05:46.279 --> 0:05:50.800 the part of David Murray, Kevin's barrister, and Amy will 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:55.400 respond as there you don't know are there any other 0:05:55.480 --> 0:05:59.359 things you know about this s that you are not 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:06.200 telling it? No? Pardon No, Kevin never said to you 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:09.679 that day, or to Susan while you were present with Susan, 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:11.840 that he had thrown her in the river or done 0:06:11.839 --> 0:06:15.159 anything like that. Did he He never said that. No, 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:21.120 never said he killed her, did he? No, You say 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:24.360 Susan asked him if he killed her, and he said nothing. 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:26.360 Yeah, he said nothing. 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:31.440 So this conversation that you remember about him saying that 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:35.040 he raped her too, was one that you made about 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:38.520 eight months after the incident on the morning when you 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:41.400 say you were full of drink when you heard it? 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:42.120 Is that right? 0:06:42.800 --> 0:06:43.760 I don't understand that. 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:48.600 Perhaps I did make that. You made the statement on 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:53.040 Sunday last week, which is about eight months after the incident. 0:06:53.279 --> 0:07:00.320 A bit more, Yeah, and you remember it eight months later? Yeah, 0:07:00.880 --> 0:07:10.680 that's all. Now. That means S made her statement that 0:07:10.800 --> 0:07:15.480 Kevin had told her it raped Linda eight months after 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:19.800 the event. In fact, it was the Sunday before the 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:24.840 trial began. Not only that, S was proven to be 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:29.679 lying at several points during her cross examination. And those 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:35.040 lies are crucial because S made multiple statements. In her 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:40.560 first statement, like everyone else, she agrees largely to the 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:45.400 events as we've described them. It's not until her second statement, 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:49.880 which may actually be her third but the records are unclear, 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:54.480 that she begins to implicate Kevin, and she does that 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:59.440 very heavily. Now, remember this statement that implicates Kevin is 0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:03.960 made on the Sunday before the trial starts. This is 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:08.360 eight months after the incident. Now there's some crucial elements 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:11.560 you have to remember about this. Why would a person 0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:16.160 change their statement completely just days before a trial starts. 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:20.760 Why would the police take that statement on the Sunday 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:24.040 just before the trial begins, from a person who is 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:29.360 heavily intoxicated. Again, by her own admission, she gave that 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:34.560 statement heavily intoxicated eight months after the event and the 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:38.640 Sunday before the trial began, and it was only now 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:43.319 that she was implicating Kevin Henry. This raises a lot 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:47.079 of concerns about much of her evidence, and that's largely 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:51.560 exposed on the stand because on the day the events 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:56.319 took place, she first tells prosecutors she hadn't drunk anything 0:08:56.360 --> 0:09:00.400 at all and she had a very clear recollection of 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:04.920 what occurred. But immediately under cross examination, and I do 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:08.520 mean immediately, she admitted that not only had she been 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:13.760 drinking that day too, she was heavily intoxicated. She'd also 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:17.720 fabricated much of the details of what she said in 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:23.720 that crucial statement. She admits this. She also concedes that 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:27.520 after the events she'd spoken to most of the people 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:30.800 who were there that night. Now, in her initial statement 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:34.840 and when she first appears on the stand, she claims 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:38.800 that everything is coming from her crystal clear memory, but 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:42.600 again this is just not true, and she admits that 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:47.440 under cross examination she'd sat around with everyone at Tanuba 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:51.440 House there'd been a great deal of talk. She was 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:54.760 heavily influenced by what was being told to her, both 0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:59.680 by those at Tanuba and more importantly by the police, 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:03.800 and this is what led to her statement just days 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:07.480 before the trial began, where she would finally and be 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:12.640 the only person to directly implicate Kevin in this way. 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:15.280 Now, we just told you that s was one of 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:19.040 the only witnesses whose statement made the local media, and 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:23.600 it was the sensationalistic aspects of that statement that really 0:10:23.640 --> 0:10:27.120 made news in Rockhampton at the time. Her statements were 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:31.720 covered quite extensively by the television news but also the 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:36.040 local newspaper at the morning Bulletin. Those statements included the 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:38.800 fact that she had seen Kevin with blood on his 0:10:38.880 --> 0:10:41.280 shirt and that he had told her that he had 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:44.240 placed an iron bar in Linda's mouth. 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:50.480 But this is what the media didn't tell you. The 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:55.200 claim that she saw blood on Kevin's clothes was totally misreported. 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:59.760 Kevin had been wearing the same shirt from the night before, 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:03.200 and it's true it did have blood on it, but 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:06.240 it was his blood. It had been there since the 0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:09.720 day previously, when he got into a fight with another 0:11:09.800 --> 0:11:14.480 man at Tanuba. The issue of the iron bar should 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:17.440 have also been easy for the media to rule out. 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:22.840 Not a single piece of forensic evidence, no other witness, 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:27.479 in fact, not even the police, tend to anything remotely 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:33.120 considered evidence that this was true. But the media simply 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:38.439 led with S's statements, never checked the facts, never checked 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:43.080 the issue that the two most sensational things she said 0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:47.240 were proven utterly false, and yet this is what they 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:52.040 ran with. This is what the public and the members 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:55.120 of the jury heard via the media. 0:11:56.040 --> 0:11:59.040 The other thing that's interesting about this and important to note, 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:02.600 is that s was also the only witness to claim 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:06.040 Kevin stayed at Tanuba House that night, and she was 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:09.160 found to be lying about that fact, So we know 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:12.160 that her statement simply does not add up. 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:18.320 So with that in mind, surely if Kevin had stayed 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:22.760 at Tanuba, other witnesses would have remembered it. But instead 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:26.560 other witnesses state that Kevin went to the Crown Hotel 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:31.960 with everybody else. And not only that, they state that 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:35.760 he was not only at the Crown Hotel, but that 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:39.680 he returned to Tanuba in a taxi with other people, 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:44.840 including Susan Aubrey, one of the women convicted over the 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:46.000 assault on Linda. 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:49.960 Now this is important because we've already told you that 0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:53.120 there's some confusion about when Kevin would have even had 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:55.160 the time to do what he was alleged to have done. 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:57.880 At no point does it look like he was alone. 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:01.160 In fact, it's very likely simply gone to the Crown 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:04.280 Hotel and come back, and that's what he originally said 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:05.600 in his statement to police. 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:10.679 One of those people who saw Kevin after the women 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:14.719 had committed the assault was a close relative of Susan's. 0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:19.120 We'll call her ARTI. This is what A said on 0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:23.840 the witness stand, And again I'll play David Murray and 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:32.800 Amy will answer as a when did you next see Curtin? 0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:36.199 After leaving Tanuba on that afternoon, Just as I. 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:39.400 Was walking to the Grossfinode, Susan pulled up in a 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:41.880 cab and asked us where we were going. I told 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:45.480 her we were going to get a drink. There was Susan, 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:47.960 Curtin and Bernie Ross in the taxi. She said she 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:50.240 was going home to see her piccaninnies and then after 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:52.600 what we got a drink and we went walked back 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:56.000 down to Tanuba. They turned up there and was drinking. 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:58.880 All night there when he got back to Tanuba. Which 0:13:58.920 --> 0:13:59.920 way did you go under? 0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:02.120 We went down the stairs. 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:05.840 Are they the same stairs where Linda was lying when 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:10.440 you left? Yeah? Was Linda there when you went back? 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:12.280 No, not that I know of. 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:16.000 The next day someday. Were you still at Tanuba? 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:17.520 Yeah? 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:19.080 Was Curtin there as well? 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:22.600 Yeah. 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:26.200 Now A was not the only person to claim she 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:30.520 saw Kevin in a cab with these two people returning 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:35.440 to Tanuba that night. Another witness, who will call Jay, 0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:40.240 also had a similar story and just a reminder that 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:44.320 Tanuba House was rock Hampton's old morgue and so I 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:48.400 was referred to as the morgue in this testimony. Again, 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:55.200 I'll play David Murray and Amy will answer as Jay. 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:58.600 I'm just unsure of this, but I thought you said 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:02.000 to the learned prosecutor that you didn't see Kurtin again 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:05.880 after you saw him outside the Crown until he got 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:08.920 back to the morgue. Is that what you said, Yes, 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:13.120 that's what you said in your evidence in chief. Yes, 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:19.800 in your statement to the police you said this. A. Colin, 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:25.840 Margie s Frank and me then walked to the gross Venner. 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:29.520 When we got to the grosvender. A taxi pulled up 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:36.920 and I saw Susan, Bernie and Curtin in it. So 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:37.880 you did see. 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:39.720 Him again, Yeah, in the taxi. 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:43.640 Did you speak to anyone in the cab? 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:44.320 No? 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:48.880 You didn't. No, you just saw them pull up somewhere, 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:49.200 did you. 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:50.160 Yes? 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:55.560 In your statement you said this to police. Susan then 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:58.760 said she was going to Kent Street first and then 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:01.359 she was going home. Then they drove. 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:04.560 Off, she said, told they. 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:11.680 So you did hear something said? They didn't just pull 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:12.680 up and go again. 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:13.640 Yeah. 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:16.560 Perhaps you can save us a lot of time. Tell 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:20.240 us which parts of this are true and which parts 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:30.720 are wrong of the statement? Can you do that mine? 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:34.520 And we just had two other witness statements, and both 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:37.960 of them talk about seeing Curtain that day returning from 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:42.480 the Crown in a taxi with one passenger included Susan Aubrey. 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:47.720 Can you put us a timeline of what happened? Can 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:50.000 we establish that sort of timeline? 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:52.560 Yes, we can if you can look at all the 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:57.720 witness statements here involved, and particularly these two. As we 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:03.520 discussed last week, the window of opportunity was very narrow, 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:09.080 and this actually narrows it even further so after the 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:12.560 assault on Winda, we know that everyone except for two 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:17.760 individuals stay behind at Tanuba House. Everyone else goes to 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:22.880 the Crown. Here they all chip in and Susan Aubrey 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:31.840 buys the alcohol. From there, some people walk back to Tanuba. Clearly, Kevin, 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:37.440 Susan and Bernie get into a taxi. Others had already 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:41.040 started to walk to the Gross Venner where they then 0:17:41.240 --> 0:17:46.840 saw Susan, Bernie and Kurtin in the taxi. Therefore, at 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:51.679 no point is Kevin alone because one thing we do 0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:57.040 know that f S claimed on the stand is that she 0:17:57.240 --> 0:18:02.920 was actually the first person back to Tanuba House before 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:08.800 Kevin Henry, and by then the body was already gone. 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:13.280 So the narrow window of opportunity it's about ten to 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:18.520 fifteen minutes when the police alleged Kevin dumped the body 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:23.640 in the river, is a time when he was a 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:28.280 at the Crown Hotel and then b in a taxi. 0:18:30.560 --> 0:18:32.720 When did he possibly commit this crime? 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:38.080 So, Martin, it seems like a pretty solid alibi. Shouldn't 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:40.880 that have come up in trial? The facts that two 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:45.640 witnesses actually saw him in a taxi with Susan Aubrey. 0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:51.040 Well clearly the defense was trying to make this very clear. 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:56.240 They painted a clear picture to the jury that Kevin 0:18:56.400 --> 0:18:59.640 was both at the Crown and then in a taxi 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:02.760 at the time he was supposed to have committed this crime. 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:09.240 But for whatever reason, the jury either were confused or 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:13.280 ignored these pieces of evidence. And I think one of 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:16.480 the reasons we can assume this happened is because of 0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:22.160 the very confusing nature of the witness statements. And that's 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:27.080 because police took multiple statements from these witnesses. They took 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:31.440 them when they were intoxicated, and they took S's statement 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:37.159 just on the Sunday before the trial began. So the 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:42.520 jury have heard s first claim to be sober, to 0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:47.600 have seen everything that occurred, to have known who was 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:52.040 where and at what time. And then they've heard her 0:19:52.119 --> 0:19:57.320 admit know she was intoxicated, she didn't know what was 0:19:57.359 --> 0:20:02.280 going on, she'd been told events by others, not she 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:05.720 seen anything with her own eyes that she could remember. 0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:10.520 And that that statement that implicated Kevin was given just 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:14.920 days before the trial began. Whether the jury was able 0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:19.600 to piece this together clearly is perhaps why they don't 0:20:19.720 --> 0:20:24.480 understand that Kevin had an alibi such. 0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:28.399 That Obviously, we have two witnesses, A and Jay, and 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:31.360 as you mentioned, f it seems that all of them 0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:34.840 were found to be quite unreliable. So can we say 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:38.760 that in the sense that alibi might be unreliable as well? 0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:43.439 Well? It could be unreliable given that so much of 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:48.160 what they say is simply just not true. But here's 0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:54.280 why I believe it is reliable. These are statements that 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:59.960 they gave early on. These are statements they gave before 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:06.000 for Kevin was implicated in Linda's murder. These are the 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:13.640 statements that match after Kevin was charged with murder. It's 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:19.159 the following statements, some like Essa's, made just days before 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:23.520 the trial, are the ones where the facts change. The 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:28.199 facts that relate to Kevin's alibi are a statements taken 0:21:28.440 --> 0:21:33.639 immediately after the assault on Linda took place, when the 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:38.880 police began their initial investigation. They all match up. They 0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:43.639 all say the same thing. They agreed that Susan Bernie 0:21:43.760 --> 0:21:48.080 and Curtin, Kevin Henry were in the taxi. It's not 0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:52.320 till much later on, after the police had decided to 0:21:52.440 --> 0:21:57.480 charge Kevin, that these witness statements suddenly change. They no 0:21:57.600 --> 0:22:02.320 longer match up. They admit, at least some of them 0:22:02.400 --> 0:22:06.199 that they are intoxicated when they gave those statements, and 0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:11.760 only now does some of them begin to include Kevin Henry. 0:22:12.600 --> 0:22:18.000 But even those details are either totally false, as proven 0:22:18.040 --> 0:22:22.720 by the forensic evidence, or simply made up, as admitted 0:22:22.760 --> 0:22:26.800 by those very witnesses on the stand under cross examination. 0:22:27.640 --> 0:22:29.760 I thought it was very interesting as well, because in 0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:34.359 Jay's statement, we sort of had have that almost a 0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:37.560 marker to show that when she got back, Linda's body 0:22:37.640 --> 0:22:41.480 was no longer there. So how long can is there 0:22:41.480 --> 0:22:43.159 a way to establish from that how long they might 0:22:43.200 --> 0:22:45.880 have been at the Crown, because it seems they've come 0:22:45.920 --> 0:22:48.400 back and obviously Linda's body has gone, And I think 0:22:48.400 --> 0:22:50.840 that's a really important part of her statement. 0:22:51.359 --> 0:22:55.560 Yes, so she is one witness who went to the Crown, 0:22:58.000 --> 0:23:01.160 walked to the gross Swinner, and then went back to 0:23:01.160 --> 0:23:06.439 Tanuba along with s She was one of the along 0:23:06.480 --> 0:23:08.840 with s She was one of the people who were 0:23:08.840 --> 0:23:12.199 gone for the least amount of time, and we know 0:23:12.320 --> 0:23:16.520 she did very little while she was away. She chipped 0:23:16.560 --> 0:23:20.400 in to buy alcohol with Susan at the Crown. They 0:23:20.440 --> 0:23:25.160 did not drink there. They left immediately after and then 0:23:25.280 --> 0:23:29.720 after seeing Kevin in the taxi, they went back to Tanuba. 0:23:30.600 --> 0:23:34.000 So again, based on the other facts we touched on 0:23:34.200 --> 0:23:39.119 in previous episodes, that window appears to still be around 0:23:39.280 --> 0:23:44.200 ten to fifteen minutes. Kevin is away from Kevin is 0:23:44.240 --> 0:23:48.760 away from Tanuba this whole time. In fact, virtually everyone 0:23:48.760 --> 0:23:52.640 who was at Tanuba is away from the house at 0:23:52.680 --> 0:23:57.920 this time, and the first person to return and all 0:23:57.960 --> 0:24:03.440 those following state the Winder's body was now gone. 0:24:04.240 --> 0:24:06.640 The other thing that Jay said I thought was interesting 0:24:06.760 --> 0:24:09.160 is she talked about she was at Tanuba the next 0:24:09.240 --> 0:24:11.800 day and so was Curtin, So I think she even 0:24:11.840 --> 0:24:14.840 puts it as until at midday, I mean everyone was 0:24:14.840 --> 0:24:17.600 still there. So that was before the police accorded of 0:24:17.840 --> 0:24:21.119 the crime scene. That seems very important as well. I 0:24:21.119 --> 0:24:22.960 mean it seems that there were quite a lot of 0:24:22.960 --> 0:24:25.200 people who are at t Nubah the whole next day 0:24:25.280 --> 0:24:27.320 before police declared it a crime scene. 0:24:27.920 --> 0:24:30.919 That's right, and that is very important for a number 0:24:30.960 --> 0:24:35.480 of reasons. Firstly, you've got a crime scene where many 0:24:35.520 --> 0:24:40.800 many people are coming and going. You've got items being disturbed, 0:24:41.440 --> 0:24:47.400 for prints being made, the possibility for someone or multiple 0:24:47.440 --> 0:24:50.960 people to begin to remove evidence, and cover things up. 0:24:51.960 --> 0:24:55.919 But you've also just got this basic issue of witnesses 0:24:55.960 --> 0:25:00.000 being able to collaborate to get their story straight before 0:25:00.280 --> 0:25:05.880 police arrive. And that's clear that that happened. The prosecutor 0:25:06.080 --> 0:25:11.399 tried to insinuate. In fact, he asked for witnesses to 0:25:11.440 --> 0:25:16.400 state that they did not discuss what happened the night before, 0:25:17.119 --> 0:25:20.680 So we were led to believe, and this was partly 0:25:20.720 --> 0:25:25.440 reported that those sitting around did not discuss the events 0:25:25.480 --> 0:25:29.040 of the night before, including the brutal assault on Winder, 0:25:30.160 --> 0:25:34.960 But under cross examination, all those witnesses admit they did 0:25:35.720 --> 0:25:37.639 that there was a great deal of talk around to 0:25:37.720 --> 0:25:41.440 Nuber House about what had happened the night before. There 0:25:41.480 --> 0:25:46.240 was clearly concern that soon the police would arrive, and some, 0:25:47.600 --> 0:25:51.800 particularly those who had committed the assault, were keen to 0:25:51.840 --> 0:25:53.080 get their story straight. 0:25:55.080 --> 0:25:57.600 So might and if Kevin had a solid alibi, Were 0:25:57.600 --> 0:26:00.520 there other people that had an opportunity that night? 0:26:01.160 --> 0:26:06.119 There were many, and we can start to detail those people. Now, 0:26:06.320 --> 0:26:11.280 I'm not suggesting any of these particular people were involved, 0:26:12.000 --> 0:26:16.399 but they were certainly around the area, had been seen 0:26:16.440 --> 0:26:20.520 at to nuber House and don't have an alibi. The 0:26:20.560 --> 0:26:25.080 first of those people is the fisherman. He's the man 0:26:25.240 --> 0:26:31.119 that alleges that Kevin Henry admitted to the crime the 0:26:31.200 --> 0:26:34.640 following day. This is the man who says he saw 0:26:34.680 --> 0:26:39.520 it in the newspaper that he was illiterate. This is 0:26:39.560 --> 0:26:42.320 a man who said Kevin Henry then came back the 0:26:42.359 --> 0:26:47.439 next day and again admitted to a crime. This was 0:26:47.480 --> 0:26:52.560 a man, however, who, as we told you, had multiple names, 0:26:52.960 --> 0:26:57.520 had been convicted of fraud, who was facing charges at 0:26:57.560 --> 0:27:01.880 the time, was in fact wanted and had outstanding warrants. 0:27:02.880 --> 0:27:05.960 One woman in particular says that he used to come 0:27:06.000 --> 0:27:10.439 and go from Tanuba and he took an interest in 0:27:10.520 --> 0:27:12.440 the girls there and mardin. 0:27:12.520 --> 0:27:14.800