1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: Ironically, the bigger decision is the more likely we are 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: to freeze and put it off altogether. But what if 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:11,640 Speaker 1: there was a proven framework specifically crafted to streamline decision 4 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:16,280 Speaker 1: making while capturing different perspectives. Jake is the New York 5 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:19,639 Speaker 1: Times best selling author of the amazing books Sprint and 6 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:24,439 Speaker 1: Make Time. But beyond writing and investing, he also created 7 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: the design Sprint process, which is a powerful method for 8 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: tackling complex problems and testing new ideas that's been adopted 9 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: by Google, Microsoft, Uber, Meta, Lego, and countless other innovative organizations. 10 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 1: In Our Conversation Today, Jake explains how we can make 11 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 1: our most complex decisions in just forty eight hours with 12 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:50,200 Speaker 1: better results compared to weeks of deliberation. His approach might 13 00:00:50,360 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: forever change how you handle those high stakes moments. Welcome 14 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 1: to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals, and 15 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: strategies for optimizing your day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber. 16 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: In his book Click, Jake introduces the concept of magic lenses, 17 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:20,960 Speaker 1: which is a structure that helps you weigh different perspectives 18 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: without falling victim to different biases. Naturally, I wanted to 19 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: know how I could apply this method so I asked 20 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: Jake how he uses it in his day to day life. 21 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 2: Well, first I should I'll preface by saying, in my 22 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 2: day to day life, it's only a big decision that 23 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:46,759 Speaker 2: warrants using magic lenses. Because when you hear me describe 24 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 2: magic lenses, you might say, WHOA, that's a lot. I 25 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 2: don't want to do that when I'm picking my lunch, 26 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 2: you know. So if you're looking at the menu at 27 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 2: the sandwich shop, this is not the time. But you know, 28 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 2: if you're trying to decide, if your kid is trying 29 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 2: to decide what to do after they've graduated from school, 30 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 2: or if you're trying to decide if you know what 31 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 2: to do with your career, or you know, if you're 32 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 2: trying to decide what kind of car to buy, or 33 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 2: the things of this nature where it's like, well, there 34 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 2: are a lot of things to weigh. They are real 35 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 2: life issues, but they're big. Here's what magic lenses is. 36 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 2: It's a simple idea, which is that you make a 37 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 2: two y two chart for every perspective that you think 38 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 2: is an important perspective for thinking about a question. So, 39 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 2: to use the example of the car that I just described, 40 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 2: you're trying to decide what kind of car should I get? 41 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 2: It can be very overwhelming. There's so many options, you know. 42 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 2: So one way of thinking about the decision is cost. 43 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 2: What's the cost of purchasing the car? What do I 44 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 2: anticipate the ongoing maintenance or fuel or lack thereof, if 45 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:56,959 Speaker 2: it's electric, costs might be. And so you can imagine 46 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 2: a two y two chart of cost with you know, 47 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 2: upfront costs and ongoing costs, and then you might have 48 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 2: five or ten different cars you're thinking about. You to 49 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 2: sign each one a color stickynoe and you put them 50 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 2: on there. And we do a lot of this stuff 51 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 2: in Mirro, which is an online whiteboard, but you might 52 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 2: do this in real life. Okay, so now I've got 53 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:16,799 Speaker 2: one chart, and maybe there's one in the top right 54 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 2: or someone one or two or three up there look 55 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 2: pretty good. Well, now we look at something else, like 56 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 2: maybe reliability or maybe which one's the most fun to drive. 57 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 2: When I'm working with a startup, there are consistently four 58 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 2: lenses that are always a good idea for any kind 59 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 2: of project they might be working on. And the first 60 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 2: one of those is the pragmatic lens. So if you 61 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 2: imagine your stereotypical engineer who perhaps is concerned with what's 62 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 2: the fastest thing to build, what's the most expensive thing 63 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 2: to build? So we want it, We want the cheap 64 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 2: to build and you know, fast to build. That would 65 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 2: be the top right of the pragmatic lens. And then 66 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 2: a startup should think about growth. So where are there 67 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 2: the most customers that this solution might reach, and how 68 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 2: easy is it for people to adopt this thing? And 69 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 2: we could chart all the options there, and then we 70 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 2: might think about money. Which of these has the highest 71 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 2: long term value and the most potential paying customers. Then 72 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 2: we of course should think about the customer and in fact, 73 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 2: this might be the most important lens. Which best solves 74 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 2: the problem that we believe customers have, and which one 75 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 2: of these is the easiest to use and adopt. And 76 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 2: so this set of charts, if we plot all of 77 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 2: our options in color, on those we can see like 78 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 2: maybe one maybe the green one is always in the 79 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 2: top right, Well, great, maybe we should do that, or 80 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 2: maybe it's a mix, but one of those feels the 81 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 2: most right. And when we're doing this with a startup, 82 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 2: once we've gone through some basic ones, the obvious ones, 83 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 2: we start to create some new custom fine tune perspectives. Anyway, 84 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 2: it's a lot to hold in your head you even 85 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 2: be describing it. But the point of this is that 86 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 2: I bounce from one thing to another. It's like I'm 87 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 2: a pinball machine in my head. And the same thing 88 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 2: happens with teams. And when you have a whole team 89 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 2: of people, even if you just have two founders or 90 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 2: three founders, they're pinballing around between these things. So when 91 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 2: we make it plain and we think, if you had 92 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,039 Speaker 2: a team of advisors who had these different perspectives, what 93 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 2: would each one of them say? And then what are 94 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 2: the other viewpoints that you think might be interesting. Let's 95 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 2: craft a chart for those. It's so helpful. It's like 96 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:26,840 Speaker 2: if you're a Harry Potter fan, there's the pen Seve 97 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 2: where they take the memories out of their minds and 98 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 2: then you can see you can kind of go into 99 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 2: the story. 100 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: So how do you know that you've got the right 101 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: or the best lenses when you're thinking through you know, 102 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: cost and pragmaticism and growth and anything else with any 103 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: kind of decision, how do you get to that point 104 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: where you're like, yes, these will be the themes or 105 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 1: the lens or the criteria for these two by twos. 106 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 2: Those four that I mentioned come from our experience working 107 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 2: with a lot of startups, and it just these perspectives 108 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 2: would always be useful in every case. So those I 109 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 2: feel comfortable. If you're talking about a business question, thinking 110 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 2: about the customer, thinking about pragmatism, thinking about money, you're 111 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 2: running a business, and thinking about growth, you're not going 112 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,280 Speaker 2: to go wrong thinking about those perspectives. But for the others, 113 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 2: and again this is going to get a little nerdy, 114 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 2: but what we do is have every possible approach. We 115 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 2: list as many as we can, and then we choose 116 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 2: the top few. So you know, if we're working with 117 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 2: a startup, we have one person who's the decider, the CEO, 118 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 2: and they they'll choose. Okay, we'll vote, everybody votes, and 119 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,799 Speaker 2: then the CEO will say, these are the top, say 120 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 2: five approaches I want to consider, and then we'll divide 121 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 2: up and we'll say, okay, somebody needs to take a 122 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 2: sheet of paper and write a sentence or two about 123 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:47,479 Speaker 2: why this is a good idea and maybe draw a 124 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 2: doodle of it, you know, right, Okay, for this approach, 125 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 2: here's what I think is good about it, and here's 126 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 2: just a back of the napkin sketch of what I 127 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 2: have in mind how it would look. We all then 128 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 2: look at those approaches, and we'll take a note underneath 129 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 2: with sticky notes. What's the criteria this is good at? 130 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 2: What does this do well at? Often founders will put 131 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 2: on a sticky note, this is exciting to build. I'm 132 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 2: excited about building this. And that's often a really important 133 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 2: consideration because there's a lot that goes into that. There's 134 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 2: a lot of maybe intuition about something, and often after 135 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 2: you've gone through the more rational logical progression of the 136 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 2: standard ways of looking at it, you find that, well, 137 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 2: excitement is really important. Often there's might be something like 138 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 2: we can find a partner who will do this with us, 139 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 2: you know, a company partner who can help us distribute this, 140 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 2: so things that might be particular to the kind of 141 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 2: business that a startup is in. But I always trust 142 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 2: that the team themselves are going to have good insights 143 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 2: into what makes a good lens. And once we've gotten 144 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 2: warmed up by doing those classic ones, that's kind of 145 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 2: the key. You warm up a bit, then you're kind 146 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 2: of in the right mode and it's easy to make 147 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 2: one or two or three more. 148 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed this quick Win episode with Jake 149 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: and if you would like to listen to the full interview, 150 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: you can find a link to that in the show notes. 151 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: If you like today's show, make sure you get follow 152 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 1: on your podcast app to be alerted when new episodes drop. 153 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: How I Work was recorded on the traditional land of 154 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: the Warringery people, part of the cool And Nation.