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Speaker 1: As we've spoken about quite extensively over the last couple

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Speaker 1: of days, we know that there was a deliberate act

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Speaker 1: of vandalism caused by six youth detainees age between thirteen

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Speaker 1: and seventeen at the New Youth Detention Center. That damage

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Speaker 1: causing what is estimated to be around well two hundred

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars worth of damage now in each case. From

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Speaker 1: what we've been told, the rooms were damaged in just

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Speaker 1: under thirty minutes in intervals between officers routine checks. These

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Speaker 1: rooms are now inoperable while the urgent repairs are undertaken.

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Speaker 1: Now joining me on the show and in the studio

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Speaker 1: is the Northern Territory Corrections Commissioner Matthew Varley. Good morning

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Speaker 1: to you.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, Katie, Thanks.

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Speaker 1: So much for your time this morning now, Commissioner. First off,

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Speaker 1: where are things at in terms of that damage.

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Speaker 3: Well, the damage is being assessed and repaired, and we've

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Speaker 3: had our folks with the Department of Infrastructure in there

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Speaker 3: obviously straight away. Some of those minor repairs have been made,

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Speaker 3: some of the sinks have been removed, we're replacing those,

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Speaker 3: and some of the rooms are now back online, although

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Speaker 3: temporarily whilst we continue to do a little bit of

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Speaker 3: that extra work. So in some rooms we've put the

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Speaker 3: young people back in there. Some of the obviously panels

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Speaker 3: and remote controls aren't working and their TV doesn't work.

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Speaker 2: But bad luck.

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Speaker 3: Unfortunately we've got the kids back in there, but we

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Speaker 3: still have to do some more deeper repairs to repair

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Speaker 3: some of the wiring and the other electronic systems.

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Speaker 1: You must have been pierced off when you realized what.

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Speaker 2: Had happened, Katie.

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Speaker 3: We've had a fab couple of weeks, haven't we, really,

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Speaker 3: I guess at the end of the day, yeah, I'm frustrated.

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Speaker 2: We've got a.

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Speaker 3: Lot of pressures on the correctional system, a lot of

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Speaker 3: pressures on the justice system, and our folks turn.

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Speaker 2: Up to work every day doing a bloody good job.

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Speaker 3: I was out at the detention center a few times

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Speaker 3: actually in the last week or two, and again early

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Speaker 3: in the week spoke to the staff. We had a

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Speaker 3: barbecue breakfast. The staff have done a cracker of a

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Speaker 3: job getting that facility ready and transitioning young people. And

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Speaker 3: then I guess Thursday, I flew to Alice Springs and

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Speaker 3: I went and visited our youth justice folks and our

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Speaker 3: prison folks down in Alice, and I got the phone

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Speaker 3: call that the rooms have been trashed, and you know,

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Speaker 3: you just kind of get really frustrated with this because

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Speaker 3: you're trying to do the right thing. Our staff are

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Speaker 3: trying to work as hard as they can on the

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Speaker 3: right environment. This is a facility that is a brand

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Speaker 3: new design youth justice facility, and to have it trashed

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Speaker 3: within the first couple of weeks, a couple of days really,

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Speaker 3: but even more disturbingly from what I understand, Katie, you know,

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Speaker 3: the young people swapping notes on how they did it

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Speaker 3: and how to tackle the next room.

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Speaker 1: So you're joking.

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Speaker 3: I'm not joking, And this is the kind of this

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Speaker 3: is kind of frustrating behavior our staff deal with.

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Speaker 1: So you know, we have what do you mean, they're

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Speaker 1: literally passing on information to their mates in the next

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Speaker 1: to that moment.

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Speaker 3: Well, they're talking about, as I understand, the vulnerabilities they've

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Speaker 3: found on Wednesday night, and of course Thursday night, we

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Speaker 3: have a couple.

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Speaker 2: Of repeats, so you know, and I've asked.

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Speaker 3: Questions around how they've managed to do some of this stuff.

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Speaker 3: It's a sequence of events, Katie. They find a particular

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Speaker 3: screw in a panel of electronics, and they use their

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Speaker 3: toothbrush to reverse that screw out, and then they use

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Speaker 3: the screw to chip away at the render, and then

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Speaker 3: they use a bedsheet to get behind the electronic panel

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Speaker 3: and pull off the wall, and then they use the

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Speaker 3: panel to smash the basin. And this all happens really quickly,

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Speaker 3: and you kind of wonder, well, how the bloody hell

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Speaker 3: do they work that out?

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Speaker 2: First of all?

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Speaker 3: And secondly, you know, how is the building fabric not

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Speaker 3: being designed and built to an effect that sorts that

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Speaker 3: problem out. Now we're looking into that, and of course,

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Speaker 3: you know this is a long term project that's been

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Speaker 3: underway for a while. Obviously I'm frustrated as to how

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Speaker 3: the building is like that, but we'll work through it

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Speaker 3: and we'll fix it.

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Speaker 1: People are absolutely scratching their hits, I think, wondering, you know,

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Speaker 1: how it is like that, how they are in a

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Speaker 1: situation where they're able to do that and find those vulnerabilities.

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Speaker 1: But then a lot of people questioning how the guards

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Speaker 1: or the staff they didn't notice what was going on either.

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Speaker 3: So when you go out to the new for it holds,

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Speaker 3: it's a really big facility it's been designed with a

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Speaker 3: number of accommodation blocks right around I guess a big

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Speaker 3: sports overall, and our officers walk from block to block

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Speaker 3: to do these inspections, and overnight between seven pm and

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Speaker 3: seven am, when the young people are locked in their rooms,

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Speaker 3: we do routine inspections.

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Speaker 2: And what I understand has.

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Speaker 3: Occurred is during the cycle of those inspections, the children

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Speaker 3: know where the gaps are and have worked out the

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Speaker 3: time period. So we're going to change that process and

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Speaker 3: we're going to make those inspections more random. And we

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Speaker 3: have CCTV, for example, in some of those rooms. Now

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Speaker 3: my understanding is that that's switched off at night, and

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Speaker 3: we're going to again have a look at why that is.

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Speaker 3: I think something to do with the privacy of the

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Speaker 3: young people in the rooms under a past system.

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Speaker 2: And again I've asked.

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Speaker 3: For those sorts of things to be reviewed and advice

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Speaker 3: provided to me about how we can tighten up those pressures. Sorry,

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Speaker 3: those procedures. But I guess the thing is, this is

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Speaker 3: a detention facility. It needs to be run with a

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Speaker 3: degree of custody and control and security, and that's exactly

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Speaker 3: what we'll work on. Part of corrections and youth justice

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Speaker 3: coming together.

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Speaker 1: So what's happened now with the offenders? They were identified immediately.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, of course, and as soon as the officers realize

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Speaker 3: what's gone on, you know, those young people are removed

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Speaker 3: and secured in a different room and those sorts of things.

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Speaker 3: But we now report those matters to the police. The

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Speaker 3: police conduct an investigation, and of course, should they have

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Speaker 3: enough evidence, then I guess they'll press charges in relation

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Speaker 3: to that criminal damage. But then, of course we have

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Speaker 3: other structural behavior programs in the Youth Justice Center, and

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Speaker 3: that can involve losses of privileges. It is a different

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Speaker 3: program of design than an adult corrections facility, and the

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Speaker 3: way in which young people are managed is different from

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Speaker 3: an adult prison.

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Speaker 2: But again, so what might.

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Speaker 1: They have taken off them not be allowed to watch

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Speaker 1: a TV? I think people are actually going to be

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Speaker 1: surprised to hear they've got TVs in their rooms.

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Speaker 3: To be honest, well, every bedroom has a television in it,

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Speaker 3: and look in fairness, not uncommon with adult prisons as well, right,

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Speaker 3: and we provide books and reading material. The TVs can

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Speaker 3: be controlled remotely. But there's a cycle in the youth

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Speaker 3: justice system. As I understand that a young person can

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Speaker 3: earn their progression through that system through good behavior, not

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Speaker 3: dissimilar to an adult system where you can improve your

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Speaker 3: security classification by good behavior. But of course the way

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Speaker 3: in which those incentives are structured. You know, we're bound

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Speaker 3: by procedure and we're bound by law. I'm going to

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Speaker 3: have a look at how that works and to see

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Speaker 3: whether there's anything else we can do to improve the

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Speaker 3: way in which you know, privileges can be either attracted

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Speaker 3: or removed based on behavior. But I also think it's

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Speaker 3: about understanding what else we can do to support our

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Speaker 3: yjo is, our staff YEP who are responding to these incidents,

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Speaker 3: you know, giving them the tools.

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Speaker 1: And I want to talk about that because, as I

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Speaker 1: understand it, there was a couple of assaults last week.

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Speaker 1: A youth detainee allegedly assaulted to Youth Justice officers last Tuesday,

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Speaker 1: viking one with a broom before punching both in the face.

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Speaker 1: At the other Springs Detention center, that detainee is further

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Speaker 1: alleged to have them spat in the face of two officers.

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Speaker 1: Is that right?

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Speaker 2: That's correct?

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Speaker 1: What happens after something like that goes.

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Speaker 3: On, Well, firstly, they're restrained and they were dealt with appropriately,

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Speaker 3: and then of course they're separated for a period of time.

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Speaker 3: But again the law as it currently stands, requires us

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Speaker 3: to only separate that person, i e. Put them in

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Speaker 3: confinement in a room for as long as it takes

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Speaker 3: to de escalate their behavior, and as soon as that

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Speaker 3: behavior is de escalated, they're allowed back out.

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Speaker 2: And this is part of the law in the Youth

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Speaker 2: Justice Act.

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Speaker 3: And of course what that means is our yjos are

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Speaker 3: working hard to make sure they're engaging with the young person,

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Speaker 3: they're de escalating them, they're managing their behaviors. Aside from

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Speaker 3: the assault chargers, Katie, and aside from repercussions at court

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Speaker 3: later on removing some of those privileges. It's a constant

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Speaker 3: dance inside those centers every day to manage those young

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Speaker 3: children's behavior. Now here's the cracker, right, every so often

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Speaker 3: you get some of these kids that are really high

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Speaker 3: needs and high maintenance and high risk. Those two primary

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Speaker 3: young people involved in those incidents in Alice Springs were

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Speaker 3: the same two that escaped the other week, so brought

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Speaker 3: back to custody, put into detension.

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Speaker 1: So hang on, let me just get that straight. So

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Speaker 1: the two that escaped just the other week, they are

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Speaker 1: the same too. That then were involved in another incident

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Speaker 1: where two youth detainees allegedly attacked a senior Youth Justice

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Speaker 1: officer at the Alla Springs Detention Center. One of those

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Speaker 1: detainees allegedly bit that Youth Justice officer twice.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's correct. In the second incident. So that was

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Speaker 3: one of our senior officers. And I won't name him,

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Speaker 3: but he's quite a senior officer in Alice Springs, very

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Speaker 3: well respected, experienced, like a decade plus more, Katie and YJ.

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Speaker 3: And he was counseling one of these young people. So

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Speaker 3: you asked the question around, you know, what do we do?

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Speaker 3: He was sitting down and talking through this young person's behavior.

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Speaker 3: The young person erupted, a struggle ensued, and during his

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Speaker 3: attempt to restrain that young person, he gets spat in

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Speaker 3: the face a few times and bitten on the torso.

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Speaker 3: And I've seen the injury and it broke skin. And

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Speaker 3: now that officer has to undergo obviously infectious disease testing. Right,

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Speaker 3: So the poor bloke is doing his job to try

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Speaker 3: and counsel these kids and he gets bitten.

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Speaker 2: None of our officers should encounter that behavior.

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Speaker 3: But it goes to show you the risks that our

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Speaker 3: yjstaff are dealing with every day.

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Speaker 1: Wow. I mean like that's a lot. People are going

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Speaker 1: to be listening to that this morning going wow, their

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Speaker 1: mind boggles. And I understand and totally get that. There

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Speaker 1: was obviously a royal commission a number of years ago

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Speaker 1: and there were certain things that maybe needed to be

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Speaker 1: changed and modified. But I feel quite concerned then when

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Speaker 1: you think about the safety now of people within the

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Speaker 1: those youth justice facilities.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well their safety is obviously my concern too, right,

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Speaker 3: And that's why I was down there. Well, I was

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Speaker 3: in both youth justice facilities last week with my senior

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Speaker 3: folks talking to the staff, and I've got to say,

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Speaker 3: you know, they're encouraged by the work that we're doing

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Speaker 3: to sort of review and look at the way in

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Speaker 3: which we can improve their circumstances. They do a great job,

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Speaker 3: you know, but are there things that I can do

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Speaker 3: as Corrections Commissioner to help support them on the front line,

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Speaker 3: And are we looking at things like, you know, additional

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Speaker 3: training that we can learn from adult corrections about how

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Speaker 3: to open a door properly, or how to work through,

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Speaker 3: you know, an emergency response, how to bring back protective

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Speaker 3: equipment so that our officers can wear it. You know,

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Speaker 3: even down to things like do I need to consider

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Speaker 3: body worn cameras in a youth justice setting? Now we

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Speaker 3: have those in adults, we don't have them in youth.

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Speaker 3: There's things that I want to look at. But most importantly,

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Speaker 3: you know, I want our staff to be safe, and

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Speaker 3: I want our staff to have the tools and the

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Speaker 3: training they need to look after themselves.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like it's actually been quite a big transition

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Speaker 1: going back from being managed by territory families to now

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Speaker 1: falling back under corrections.

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Speaker 3: Well eight weeks in Katie, and you know, we've achieved

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Speaker 3: a lot in that eight weeks and our staff have

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Speaker 3: managed I mean, let's not forget we closed don Dale

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Speaker 3: for young people.

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Speaker 2: That's been a long time coming.

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Speaker 3: We've moved the young people to the new center, and

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Speaker 3: now these incidents happened. We'll respond to it, and we'll

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Speaker 3: learn from it and we'll make adaptions. Of course, that

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Speaker 3: also brings with it some of those other Domino pieces

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Speaker 3: to work on the corrections that old master plan. Yep,

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Speaker 3: but there is an opportunity. I think as part of

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Speaker 3: corrections in YJ coming together that we look at how

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Speaker 3: can we make sure that we swing that pendulum.

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Speaker 2: To the place where it needs to be.

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Speaker 3: And I don't want to repeat the mistakes of the past,

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Speaker 3: and I certainly don't want to end up in another

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Speaker 3: Royal commission, but I think there are things that I

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Speaker 3: can do to make sure our offices are safer and

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Speaker 3: better trained and more able to respond onto some of

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Speaker 3: these incidents like we saw last week.

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Speaker 1: Where do you think that pendulum needs to swing to?

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Speaker 3: Well, I guess, for example, you know when we enter

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Speaker 3: into rooms, our officers have not been able to, for example,

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Speaker 3: in recent years, enter into a room and restrain a

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Speaker 3: young person when they're causing this damage. That's been part

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Speaker 3: of policy and training and it's something I'm looking at

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Speaker 3: very closely and.

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Speaker 2: A lot I have to do.

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Speaker 3: Just watch, well, we wait, We've waited, I should say,

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Speaker 3: until such time as the incident de escalates and the

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Speaker 3: young person's self regulated their behavior and we negotiate. Right,

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Speaker 3: the last thing we want to do is cause harm

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Speaker 3: to a young person. But at the same time, there

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Speaker 3: are times when in a secure custodial environment, will need

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Speaker 3: to intervene, and I think that's some of the work

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Speaker 3: that I'll need to do to make sure my officers have,

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Speaker 3: you know, my backing, to make sure that they can

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Speaker 3: do that job when they need to.

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Speaker 1: Commissioner is the problem when it comes to youth the

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Speaker 1: tension as well that we just don't have enough staff

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Speaker 1: or are you satisfied with the level of staffing that

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Speaker 1: you've got.

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Speaker 3: Well, look on the days of these incidents, we willfully

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Speaker 3: staffed out at Halts and we have more than one

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Speaker 3: hundred yjos on staff at Darwin, and I think I

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Speaker 3: can't remember in our springs. I'm going to say it's

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Speaker 3: somewhere between forty and fifty. But you know, we recruit

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Speaker 3: all the time. But I'm pretty happy with the way

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Speaker 3: the staff levels were those days. Now, that doesn't mean

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Speaker 3: that we take our eye off the ball, Katie, and

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Speaker 3: we don't keep recruiting and other things. But in relation

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Speaker 3: to these incidents, I think it's more about the process,

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Speaker 3: the procedure, the tools and track tactics that we need

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Speaker 3: to look at to make sure we can intervene in

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Speaker 3: these incidents.

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Speaker 1: So, by the sounds of everything's on the table at

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Speaker 1: this point in time for you guys in terms of reviewing,

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Speaker 1: reviewing what's gone on and hey, you could do things differently.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's exactly what the Chief Minister and the

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Speaker 3: Minister for Corrections have said to me is take a

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Speaker 3: look at this and work with the YJA staff to

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Speaker 3: see how else we can help. He's asked me, Minster

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Speaker 3: Malee has asked me to do a review of the

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Speaker 3: policy and procedure that impacted on these incidents of damage

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Speaker 3: and if there are things that I need to do

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Speaker 3: differently and rewrite policy, I will.

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Speaker 1: Yep, all right now in terms of the bigger picture, right.

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Speaker 1: So obviously this new youth detention center was a huge

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Speaker 1: part of this jigsaw puzzle in terms of moving children

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Speaker 1: or young people into that detention center, moving them out,

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Speaker 1: or Valice Springs at some point in time being able

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Speaker 1: to move your senior or your older prisoners into those

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Speaker 1: other facilities. Where are things.

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Speaker 3: At, Well, the jigsaw puzzle is still moving and as

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Speaker 3: you said, closure of don Dale and the relocation of

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Speaker 3: the young people was step one. We are already well,

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Speaker 3: we're well advanced on the works at Berrima to turn

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Speaker 3: that into a men's prison. I've got contractors and tradees

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Speaker 3: in there almost twenty four hours a day. I think

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Speaker 3: actually we're almost completed on the renovations of Block number one,

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Speaker 3: and I expect the second block, well, the second block started,

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Speaker 3: and we'll have that work underway into early December. I'm

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Speaker 3: hoping and still targeting that we'll have the first fifty

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Speaker 3: odd men into the Barrimer facility by the first week

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Speaker 3: of December, and then I hope to have a second

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Speaker 3: tranch of fifty odd men in there before Christmas. So

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Speaker 3: that's working really hard and we're working around the clock

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Speaker 3: to make that happen. We're having architectural design meetings on

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Speaker 3: the new work camps, and I think that's happening today

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Speaker 3: around Holts and other locations. We've also got the construction

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Speaker 3: works being progressed rapidly down in Alice Springs for those

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Speaker 3: new modulus that are due online in January. But the

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Speaker 3: emergency response that we had I think a week and

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Speaker 3: a half ago that you remember, we've moved prisoners out

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Speaker 3: of watchhouses and we've relocated other prisoners around.

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Speaker 2: We have the women up here.

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Speaker 3: In Holts, We've backfilled the men into the old women's

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Speaker 3: block in Alice Springs. I think we've got about forty

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Speaker 3: men in there now already, So that's done.

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Speaker 1: So those prisoners out of the watch houses now, right,

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Speaker 1: everyone's moved out.

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Speaker 2: Nope, the police keep filling them up.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So the police have still got their prisoners in

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Speaker 1: the watchtown.

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Speaker 3: We've still got our prisoners in the watchhouse too, So

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Speaker 3: I moved some out and then a few fresh ones

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Speaker 3: come back straight in Katie. But we've got less in

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Speaker 3: there than we did. And so you might remember when

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Speaker 3: we last spoke, I think Palmerston, when I activated the

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Speaker 3: emergency response, we were well over ninety corrections prisoners crowded

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Speaker 3: into Palmerston. I think today we've got about fifty six.

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Speaker 3: And in Alice Springs, I think we were down well,

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Speaker 3: we got down.

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Speaker 2: To four or five last week.

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Speaker 3: We're back up to thirteen in Alice Springs today and

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Speaker 3: that's fluctuating a bit depending on police activity.

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Speaker 2: But some relief has happened.

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Speaker 3: That relief has transferred in the watchhouses to pressure in

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Speaker 3: the main correctional facilities, and I want to recognize our

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Speaker 3: staff who have stepped up to the challenge on that

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Speaker 3: and we're working to make sure that we can facilitate

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Speaker 3: those extra prisoners in the prisons. It's not easy, and

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Speaker 3: our staff are focused on safe staffing for those blocks

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Speaker 3: and we're doing whatever we can work with unions on that.

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Speaker 1: So where are things out at this point? Is it

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Speaker 1: looking as though correction stuff are no longer going to strike?

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Speaker 2: I hope not, Katie.

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Speaker 3: You know we were engaged in two full days of

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Speaker 3: negotiations with unions last week at the Fair Work Commission.

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Speaker 1: How did that go? Look?

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Speaker 2: Productively?

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Speaker 3: The unions raise a series of concerns about safe staffing numbers,

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Speaker 3: and I can say that you know, we've made progress

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Speaker 3: there and we're continuing to have out of session meetings.

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Speaker 3: I think we're due back in Fair Work later this week.

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Speaker 3: The disputes haven't been resolved, but I guess at the

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Speaker 3: end of the day, we're working collaboratively through that, you

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Speaker 3: know that problem, and what I'm hoping is we can

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Speaker 3: make it across the finish line to BERRIMA.

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Speaker 1: Okay, just a couple of quick ones. How many prisoners

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Speaker 1: have you currently gosh in all of your facilities at

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Speaker 1: the moment you're adult correctional facilities.

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Speaker 3: Yep, today Katie, two three hundred and seventy is that

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Speaker 3: up on what.

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Speaker 1: It was when you're an emergency or around the same.

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Speaker 2: The same hasn't changed a lot.

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Speaker 3: I think we've been bubbling around that twenty three seventy

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Speaker 3: twenty three eighty number for about a week and a half.

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Speaker 1: Now, Now, what about in the youth justice facility?

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Speaker 2: I knew you were going to ask me that question, Katie.

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Speaker 3: I think it's about today, it's about thirty nine, and

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Speaker 3: if I remember rightly, it's about twenty three in Holts

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Speaker 3: and sixteen in Alice Springs.

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Speaker 1: Now, in terms of those rooms being taken offline, how

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Speaker 1: does that sort of fear with those numbers, with the

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Speaker 1: twenty three in Holts, are you juggling at all? Okay?

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Speaker 1: If you had to take on any sort of additional measures.

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Speaker 3: To deal with that, well, obviously the officers have taken

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Speaker 3: on a range of additional measures to manage those kids better.

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Speaker 3: But we have forty four bedrooms at Holts, and so

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Speaker 3: not all of those bedrooms are occupied yet. Obviously we're

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Speaker 3: leaving some of those for the later transition of the

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Speaker 3: Alice kids up when we'll do that in December, I think,

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Speaker 3: And some of those rooms have had some minor repairs

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Speaker 3: done and further to follow, so some of them are

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Speaker 3: being used now with those kids, but we're managing well.

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Speaker 1: Corrections Commissioner Matthew Varley, I really appreciate your time this morning.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining us and all the best

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Speaker 1: with that jigsaw puzzle. Thank you, Thanks so much,