Speaker 1: This podcast contains information and details relating to suicide. We
Speaker 1: urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline. I'm
Speaker 1: thirteen eleven fourteen thirteen eleven fourteen, or visit them at
Speaker 1: lifeline dot org dot AU.
Speaker 2: Welcome.
Speaker 3: I'm Alison Sandy here for the second conversations and I'm
Speaker 3: joined by Tim Clark and Liam Bartlett.
Speaker 4: Nice to see again, Alie, Hey Elie.
Speaker 3: Good to c too. And we have a special guest
Speaker 3: this week. Her name is Julie Spate and if I
Speaker 3: look at her Wikipedia.
Speaker 5: Page, Australian former cyclist, eight time national champion at Australia's
Speaker 5: first female Olympic and Commonwealth Games track cyclists, competing in
Speaker 5: the women's.
Speaker 3: Sprint of it at the nineteen eighty eight sold Summer
Speaker 3: Olympics and winning a silver medal in the nineteen ninety
Speaker 3: Auckland Commonwealth Games. At the time, Julie, you were described
Speaker 3: as quote a class above any other female writer in
Speaker 3: the country. Welcome time.
Speaker 5: Is about commitment, you do, Julie, So thank you for
Speaker 5: being here, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: Legend trail blozer, that's me.
Speaker 2: Watch out now.
Speaker 3: The connection here, Julie, we could actually call you our
Speaker 3: first super sleut except you came on board before the podcast.
Speaker 2: Can you tell us about that? Yeah? Well, I met
Speaker 2: Anna through work. We both worked for a high profile
Speaker 2: government agency this shall forever remain unnamed. And yeah, we
Speaker 2: worked in a task force together and we quickly struck
Speaker 2: up a friendship over our love of noodles and me
Speaker 2: picking on Anna for her love it whgehood and Royal Dalton.
Speaker 2: But you know, I've known her for about six months
Speaker 2: before she ever mentioned anything about Amy. She's fiercely private,
Speaker 2: which for her, like all of the things that she's done,
Speaker 2: is just so phenomenal because she is a very private,
Speaker 2: serious person who doesn't like to get out there and
Speaker 2: speak in public and really speak about this really deep
Speaker 2: private pain.
Speaker 1: Can we remind our listeners again, for the sake of
Speaker 1: anybody who's jumped on board recently, Allison, that Julie is
Speaker 1: referring to Anna Davey. Anna was Amy's art So Anna
Speaker 1: is the sister of Amy's mum, Nancy, And that's.
Speaker 6: Very interesting that you should mention Anna's private nature, Julie,
Speaker 6: because she has had to be Amy's voice for the
Speaker 6: past ten years, and she's very publicly driven her quest
Speaker 6: for justice. So for you to say that it is
Speaker 6: an anathema for her to do that is quite the
Speaker 6: insight because we all know Anna is outspoken and go
Speaker 6: getting and you know, never never backed down.
Speaker 2: And a bit loose with the exclusive.
Speaker 4: Absolutely.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting because in the position the task
Speaker 2: was that we're in, she was just a dedicated worker
Speaker 2: and just got the job done. But there was always
Speaker 2: this sort of heaviness and she just sort of mentioned
Speaker 2: one day, oh, she also stalked me on Wikipedia and said, oh,
Speaker 2: I saw your Wikipedia page and I said, a it's
Speaker 2: a bit embarrassing, and she said, I've got a bit
Speaker 2: of a secret too. I'm on Australian story tonight. And
Speaker 2: I went okay, and I looked at it next day
Speaker 2: when we were supposed to be having a work meeting.
Speaker 2: We just had a chat for about an hour on
Speaker 2: government time and I just said, it all makes sense now,
Speaker 2: you know, you're just completely dedicated to this complete injustice.
Speaker 2: And of course, you know, I don't believe what I
Speaker 2: see on TV or here on the radio, no offense.
Speaker 2: But I thought, well, I'm going to have to look
Speaker 2: up the coroner report and just have a read see
Speaker 2: what was going on. And I read through it the
Speaker 2: first time and I thought that can't be right. And
Speaker 2: then on subsequent readings, which honestly probably I've read it
Speaker 2: about twenty five times, and it just gets more unbelievable
Speaker 2: each time I read it. And I just said to
Speaker 2: and this is unbelievable. What can I do?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great comment. Every time I read it,
Speaker 1: I think, how can the coroner even have believed this?
Speaker 1: It is so unbelievable. And I'm not I'm not even
Speaker 1: cracking half a gag there. I mean, it's not even
Speaker 1: it's not even a joke. And that's something to sort
Speaker 1: of pause and think about as well, Julie. I mean,
Speaker 1: you raise a really good point, Tim. If anyone who doesn't,
Speaker 1: because I'm a big fan of that, you know, be
Speaker 1: your own editor, find out for yourself. Don't don't just
Speaker 1: take our word for it. Don't just believe you know
Speaker 1: what we are trying to say, not that we're trying
Speaker 1: to pull the wall over anybody's eyes. We're trying to
Speaker 1: in fact open people's eyes. But do your own research,
Speaker 1: you know, don't take our word as gospel. Google Amy
Speaker 1: Wensley and google every part of that you know, and
Speaker 1: go to whatever search engine that you favor, keep going,
Speaker 1: dive a bit deeper, do things like read part of
Speaker 1: the Coronial Inquest. But if that's too for you, go
Speaker 1: and have a look at there's other video online, there's
Speaker 1: our podcast material, There's a whole stack of other reference points.
Speaker 1: There's various news organizations have done news stories. And familiarize
Speaker 1: yourself with the story. And I'll guarantee you I'd pay
Speaker 1: money to you that I haven't got if you come
Speaker 1: back to me and say that doesn't amaze me, it
Speaker 1: doesn't surprise me. I found something sort of unbelievable. I
Speaker 1: found something incredulous. You know, it has sort of triggered
Speaker 1: triggered my sense of mystery because I just can't work
Speaker 1: that out. Because anyone who can work it out, they
Speaker 1: need more than an Olympic gold medal. Julie wish I
Speaker 1: had one. You know, it's pretty amazing. Can I just
Speaker 1: ask Julie on the end of that, I mean, what
Speaker 1: of all those things you've read and dived into, what's
Speaker 1: the most amazing thing to you? You know, what sort
Speaker 1: of stands out? Is there one particular thing that you
Speaker 1: just you think there's absolutely no explanation for that.
Speaker 2: Cat me consult my notes.
Speaker 1: Oh that looks like a bible, doesn't it.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean you can go for the obvious thing,
Speaker 2: which is the detectives in take notes, and that's like
Speaker 2: number one clear concise notes, contemporaneous notes, and they just didn't.
Speaker 2: I think they've swapped notes at the end to say, oh,
Speaker 2: what have you got mate? You know that was late
Speaker 2: that night, just before one of them bug it off
Speaker 2: on leave. So that's the obvious thing. But let's not
Speaker 2: go for obvious. Let's just go straight to the coroner.
Speaker 2: Have you seen Amy? She's this slight pittsite woman and
Speaker 2: we're supposed to believe that she's beating up this big
Speaker 2: beefy guy anyway, so she's the aggressor. She says things
Speaker 2: like volatile relationship instead of just call it out for
Speaker 2: what it is, which is he's an abusive partner. You know, Amy,
Speaker 2: she had problems that was my She had problems with
Speaker 2: David's drinking. And I just thought David's drinking wasn't Amy's problem.
Speaker 2: It was his problem, and she was affected by it.
Speaker 2: And we're meant to believe that the police have arrived
Speaker 2: and they've looked around where we've heard by all accounts,
Speaker 2: there's this massive blue that's happened. Mirrors have been thrown
Speaker 2: and miraculously didn't break. Which ideare you to move a
Speaker 2: mirror without cracking it. There's things been thrown, people are yelled,
Speaker 2: she's been thrown to the floor, Tanks have been smashed,
Speaker 2: and yet we're supposed to believe that David politely knocks
Speaker 2: on the door, which I remind you had the inside
Speaker 2: hand or removed, so how was she going to get
Speaker 2: out anyway? And the coroner just brushes over there and says, okay, yeah,
Speaker 2: you asked if you're okay, and you're not on the door,
Speaker 2: and you helped her pack, Yet earlier he said he
Speaker 2: told her to f off and get out of the house.
Speaker 2: So I was just struck, like completely dumbfounded by the
Speaker 2: coroner's language, and the fact that they have a professor
Speaker 2: of biomechanics, all the signs of abuse, and all of
Speaker 2: the instances that all the friends that said we saw this,
Speaker 2: we know this, and I'm going to take what these
Speaker 2: three blokes say, or four if you count rob it.
Speaker 2: All of their statements don't line up. They all say
Speaker 2: something different. But the thing from the scene was also
Speaker 2: the cops walk in and there's guns everywhere. In the bedroom,
Speaker 2: there's ammunition unrestrained, there's a crossbow in the shed. I've
Speaker 2: got two kids under the age of six running around
Speaker 2: in this house. We're going to take all your guns
Speaker 2: off you and bloody keep them because you're using them
Speaker 2: under the influence of drugs and alcohol. There's young kids
Speaker 2: in the house.
Speaker 3: Just a little claritation, they did confiscate the guns.
Speaker 2: So hello, you guys got a par as I know.
Speaker 6: It's interesting, Julie that you pick out the language that
Speaker 6: the coroner uses in the findings and the way the
Speaker 6: way she frames it, and the frame always seems to
Speaker 6: be a little bit off away from Amy really ironically,
Speaker 6: given that it was an inquest to find out how
Speaker 6: Amy died. Thinking back to sitting in the in the
Speaker 6: court for that week in a bit, there was a
Speaker 6: lot of focus on Simmons.
Speaker 4: Always, poor Simmons.
Speaker 6: Yeah, in terms of the build up to him giving evidence,
Speaker 6: because the way the Coroner's court in wa do it
Speaker 6: is well, I don't know if they take it from
Speaker 6: the movies or whatever where they put the star witness
Speaker 6: last always and there is a legal founding for that
Speaker 6: in that they think, well, if all the questions are
Speaker 6: going to be around this person, then it is only
Speaker 6: fair to them that that all the other evidences is
Speaker 6: put before we get them there.
Speaker 4: And and there's you know, there's competing things for that.
Speaker 6: I mean, you don't want any you know, surprise evidence
Speaker 6: coming after that person has then given evidence.
Speaker 4: To have to call them back. So there's a practical
Speaker 4: thing for it.
Speaker 6: But obviously, you know, journalistic and anticipatory sense, you want
Speaker 6: to hear from this person and you've got to wait
Speaker 6: right till the end, right, So there was always that
Speaker 6: looming over the inquest as well. You know, well, well
Speaker 6: you know, we'll hear from Simmons at the end, and
Speaker 6: then he didn't turn up.
Speaker 4: And then he did but on the video link, and
Speaker 4: you know, and there were there.
Speaker 6: Were concessions made so he could appear the way that
Speaker 6: you know, that was that was comfortable for him.
Speaker 1: But again but again to him to that point, like
Speaker 1: it was all structured, that last bit was structured so
Speaker 1: that it was it was comfortable for him. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: why why are those concessions. It's like Julie's pointing out,
Speaker 1: it's the language. Indeed, that language is incredibly important, isn't it.
Speaker 6: And hearing Julie talk about that now makes me think, well,
Speaker 6: I wonder whether the coroner sort of took that whole
Speaker 6: atmosphere away from the hearings and it sort of slid
Speaker 6: into the language.
Speaker 4: That she used in the findings.
Speaker 2: I think it's definitely that. But I think she's giving
Speaker 2: him the answers. She's sort of saying, Okay, I understand
Speaker 2: this is what happened. And she's definitely given him that
Speaker 2: leeway to be out of that pressure cooker of the courtroom.
Speaker 2: And we can't really read what his physical reactions are
Speaker 2: because the body doesn't lie. We don't see him twitterly,
Speaker 2: you know, like I'm sure he's just in this sort
Speaker 2: of space where he doesn't have to feel the emotion.
Speaker 2: And why is she doing that? Because if he's telling
Speaker 2: the truth, tell the truth.
Speaker 1: But but why is it like that some seven years afterwards,
Speaker 1: six seven years after when the inquest is held, Why
Speaker 1: is the coroner taking that approach and that this is
Speaker 1: an open question. I don't I don't know the answer.
Speaker 1: I'm not being I'm not being smarter. I mean, I'm
Speaker 1: to pontificate on it.
Speaker 6: Maybe maybe she felt something better than nothing, but they
Speaker 6: the previous day they declined to go down the route
Speaker 6: that that's the Coroners Act give them.
Speaker 4: You can issue a warrant, you can a bench warrant. Yeah,
Speaker 4: you can.
Speaker 6: Take people into custody if you feel it's in the
Speaker 6: interests of justice or it's going to help you get
Speaker 6: to your conclusion. Criminal cases are a lot different juries.
Speaker 6: Every day in you know, courtrooms up and down this
Speaker 6: state are always told don't just listen to what the
Speaker 6: person in the box says, listen to how they say
Speaker 6: it and.
Speaker 4: And their their body language well while they're saying.
Speaker 6: It, exactly to Julie's point, because it's all part of
Speaker 6: the package of the impression that you get from the
Speaker 6: person being asked the questions right, particularly exactly, particularly if
Speaker 6: it is an accused that goes from the that goes
Speaker 6: from the dock into the witness box, and jurors are
Speaker 6: actually instructed that's what they have to do, not not
Speaker 6: if you like, you know, check their body language.
Speaker 4: Judges tell jurors, no, this is all part of your
Speaker 4: your duty as a jura.
Speaker 6: You've got to look at the whole thing, not just
Speaker 6: be and i' mean the reinstructed. Don't don't just take notes,
Speaker 6: you know, don't don't don't have your head down just
Speaker 6: transcribing what they're saying. Look at what they're saying, and
Speaker 6: look at how they're saying it as well, which is
Speaker 6: why judges are sometimes very much on the side of
Speaker 6: non caution when talking about video links for witnesses, particularly
Speaker 6: important ones.
Speaker 4: Lawyers have to go.
Speaker 6: To court and apply for a special witness order so
Speaker 6: that a person can appear on a video link for
Speaker 6: reason because and sometimes they get knocked back for that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's absolutely.
Speaker 6: Because it's much more preferable to have a person in person,
Speaker 6: you know, yards away from a dura for them to
Speaker 6: get the full picture.
Speaker 1: Well, I don't disagree with the word you say, so
Speaker 1: all right. So considering then, given that a coronial inquest
Speaker 1: is the ultimate fact finding mission, that's what it's all about,
Speaker 1: gaining information, why wouldn't you, as coroner want to extract
Speaker 1: one hundred percent of the information and demand that the
Speaker 1: person at the center of all this is physically present
Speaker 1: in the courtroom, in the actual courtroom. I mean, why
Speaker 1: was he given such a That's an enormous concession and also,
Speaker 1: can I just remind everybody the family have to sit
Speaker 1: there for days on end, the family of the dead person,
Speaker 1: they have to sit there for days on end and
Speaker 1: go through that trauma. Are you seriously suggesting that then
Speaker 1: at the end of all that we give the bloke
Speaker 1: at the center of all this a complete discount by
Speaker 1: letting him waltz down from the pub to some other
Speaker 1: room to sit in splendid isolation and just give his
Speaker 1: stuff on video. I mean, it just it does my
Speaker 1: head in. But again for the reason, can I just
Speaker 1: go back to that question, why would the coroner take
Speaker 1: that easy path for Simmons and why would the language
Speaker 1: all through the thing be very pro suicide?
Speaker 6: Well, I mean, the coronial brief was there, and she
Speaker 6: would have had all the statements from the police officers right,
Speaker 6: including Larry Brownford's, including his two uniform colleagues that turned
Speaker 6: up first, including cold case. But I you know, maybe
Speaker 6: maybe I almost dedicated as usually because I did read
Speaker 6: through the coroner's phone.
Speaker 4: It's again.
Speaker 6: Just about a week ago, and I still keep going
Speaker 6: back to those blooming expert reports Liam, which he had
Speaker 6: two different experts. And I tell you why, because there's
Speaker 6: funny enough. There's an inquest that started yesterday up in
Speaker 6: Broom about another long standing mystery of a death of
Speaker 6: a young person by the name of Josh Warner Key
Speaker 6: And you know one of the experts that's doing the
Speaker 6: crime scene Ecklund. Yeah, so it'll be interesting to see
Speaker 6: the language that comes out of that and maybe a
Speaker 6: compare and contrast many years on.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I noticed that.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 6: So going back to you, Julie, what did you do
Speaker 6: after that, after that reading and your initial it looks
Speaker 6: like very particular note taking, And what did you say
Speaker 6: to Anna after after you'd read those findings.
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I went out and shopped about
Speaker 2: a time. I would just had a few deep breaths,
Speaker 2: and I just said, and I look, there's so much
Speaker 2: in this And she said, I haven't been able to
Speaker 2: read through it. It was horrific enough to watch her
Speaker 2: to be there in the courtroom and she or here
Speaker 2: Amy portrayed as having calls her own death. You know,
Speaker 2: she was depressed, she was abusive, she was all these things.
Speaker 2: If you listen to what everyone says, she wasn't those
Speaker 2: things at all. And I've never known her. I don't
Speaker 2: know her. I only know from what I'm reading and
Speaker 2: looking at through the lens of don't I don't know anything.
Speaker 2: I'm just going to read what's on the page, and
Speaker 2: I'm going to pull out what doesn't make sense. And
Speaker 2: one of the things like, you know, Tim, you said
Speaker 2: the style witness, well, isn't he a bloke who has
Speaker 2: said my partner committed suicide? And then years later, you know,
Speaker 2: you say, well, what do you think you hear, David? Oh,
Speaker 2: because the police didn't do their job. Well, no, apparently,
Speaker 2: according to you, they did do their job because they
Speaker 2: said suicide, so they did their job. Now you're saying
Speaker 2: they didn't do their job. Well, if it was suicide,
Speaker 2: they did do their job, do you know what I mean? Like,
Speaker 2: it doesn't make sense. And then you've got poor old
Speaker 2: Gareth Price. You know, you have to feel sorry for
Speaker 2: this simple like is hooked up with these friends who
Speaker 2: you know, they're awful and I'm not too much sympathy.
Speaker 2: But even he says, oh, you know, Liam, the truth's
Speaker 2: going to come out, hasn't the truth? Or it did
Speaker 2: come out?
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly exactly.
Speaker 2: They can't even stay on the same path. They're just like,
Speaker 2: this is what happened, but oh, you'll get to the
Speaker 2: truth or you know, it's it's like, guys, you're hopeless,
Speaker 2: you know, hopeless witness and poor Amy was this depressed,
Speaker 2: terrible person when all of the evidence suggests that she
Speaker 2: was this fiercely strong little dynamo who loved the kids,
Speaker 2: who was trying to keep the relationship despite how much
Speaker 2: he didn't care about it. And all we get to
Speaker 2: see is what she has said in text messages when
Speaker 2: she's trying to say, look, come on, let's try and
Speaker 2: make this work despite how useless he was. What do
Speaker 2: we hear from him? Where's his text messages? What is
Speaker 2: he saying back? And you know, we get that guy's
Speaker 2: both on text messages because they don't really care or
Speaker 2: they don't know how to spell. But you know, like
Speaker 2: all we hear is this betrayal of Amy as this
Speaker 2: depressed weak person. But the evidence, when you look at it,
Speaker 2: she wasn't.
Speaker 3: Julie, I've got a question for you in relation to
Speaker 3: what Anna told me about the bags on the hands.
Speaker 3: You had a bit of information in the forensics. Can
Speaker 3: you tell me about that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. So I lived in Perth for about seven years,
Speaker 2: and for one of those years When I was first
Speaker 2: over there, I worked for a funeral home. They had
Speaker 2: a herst driver advertisement and I'm the last driver in
Speaker 2: the world. So I thought, idea at a uniform and I.
Speaker 4: Had haring skills intersect exactly.
Speaker 2: But unfortunately on the first day they said, no, you're
Speaker 2: a funeral director's assistant and you have to go and
Speaker 2: wash the bodies and help. And so I was a
Speaker 2: bit of a baptism by fire. However, So this was
Speaker 2: two thousand and one and we had the contract for
Speaker 2: all coroner deaths, you know, for sudden accidents that are
Speaker 2: north of the bridge, because everything you know in Perth
Speaker 2: is defined the river. So we had north of the
Speaker 2: river contract, which meant that we would go and pick
Speaker 2: up decease people from accidents and you know, horrific things.
Speaker 2: But at no time did we ever put bags on hands,
Speaker 2: not once. And what struck me is that they released
Speaker 2: the scene from any forensic evidence and then they asked
Speaker 2: the contractors to come in, which would have been whoever
Speaker 2: was south of the river. They would have wrapped Amy
Speaker 2: in a sheet, placed in the bag, taken it to
Speaker 2: Charlie Gardner's where the coroner is. So when did the
Speaker 2: bags get put on great question.
Speaker 6: Because reading from that coroner's report, he says, post more examination,
Speaker 6: it says both of EMI's hands had been covered with
Speaker 6: paper bags secured by masking tape before she was brought
Speaker 6: to the mortuary, and it says they were removed and
Speaker 6: multiple spots of dried blood was noted over the back
Speaker 6: of the left hand and wrist and over the fingers
Speaker 6: of the left hand, and then gunshot residues were taken
Speaker 6: and submitted.
Speaker 1: So this is one of the problems to Tim, isn't it.
Speaker 1: I mean, this was one of the issues that came up.
Speaker 1: It's just remind our listeners again. So the left hand
Speaker 1: had the burn mark, which was a burn from the barrel,
Speaker 1: which is the reason they determined that she couldn't have
Speaker 1: pulled the trigger with her left hand. Forget about the
Speaker 1: biodynamics for a moment, but just from that, the burn
Speaker 1: mark was a barrel mark, so it was a defensive
Speaker 1: mark on her left hand. Her right hand was found
Speaker 1: to be placed under her body. She was sitting on
Speaker 1: her right hand, but they said later that there was
Speaker 1: no gun residue on her right hand. And this is
Speaker 1: where they came back to the bags. Wasn't it, Julie.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, It seemed to me that they were playing
Speaker 2: catch up. But I guarantee you, as a contractor working
Speaker 2: at that time, I and that was two thousand and one.
Speaker 2: Whether that changed, I doubt it. You can ask a contractor. Now,
Speaker 2: we didn't carry paper bags, we didn't have masking tape.
Speaker 2: Another thing with those marks on a hand. We get that. Okay,
Speaker 2: she's got the muzzle burns on the left hand, But
Speaker 2: if she was holding her arm out, wouldn't she also
Speaker 2: have had a burn on the inside of a bicet.
Speaker 2: Isn't there also when the gun goes off, isn't it
Speaker 2: hitting me and burning my bicyt?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 3: There's so many unknowns, isn't there. One of the things
Speaker 3: that I thought was a really good floating strand, as
Speaker 3: Tim described the other day, loose strands is what was
Speaker 3: placed on Amy's head. Remember there were three items that
Speaker 3: they discussed. Now, I find that very weird because you've
Speaker 3: got the red towel, the blue towel. But Robert stuck
Speaker 3: both statements. He talked about a gray khaki jacket.
Speaker 1: There was a gray or khaki jacket over the person's
Speaker 1: head and upper body.
Speaker 3: Now that is really different from a red or a
Speaker 3: blue towel, right, And he was very clear in his
Speaker 3: evidence and he stuck with that. And then when he
Speaker 3: was questioned about it back in episode seven of the
Speaker 3: podcast where we talk about it, he just said he
Speaker 3: lifted it up on her head and I don't know.
Speaker 3: I thought it was a jacket. But that's something I
Speaker 3: think significant and I think it fits in with that
Speaker 3: whole None of the clothes had blood on it, even
Speaker 3: though Gareth apparently had it down amy for a phone.
Speaker 3: So when you patted her down looking for her phone,
Speaker 3: do you think you would have moved her leg or anything.
Speaker 1: Well, no, I just checked it pockets.
Speaker 4: You pat checked, yes, because well we needed to call somebody, all.
Speaker 3: Right, So you would think there would be some blood somewhere,
Speaker 3: some sort of transfer and nothing. And that jacket was
Speaker 3: it one of the ones or one of the items
Speaker 3: that were allegedly burned.
Speaker 1: Well, there's only one explanation, isn't there That If you've
Speaker 1: got three different versions of something being placed over a
Speaker 1: head from three different statements, either the recollection is wrong
Speaker 1: or you know, hazy within that sort of shock horror
Speaker 1: moments after the actual gun went off, or as you
Speaker 1: say there's been some sort of manipulation. If let's just
Speaker 1: you know, let's just pretend for a moment that it
Speaker 1: was self inflicted, I think they'd all be incredibly they'd
Speaker 1: be in shock, that they'd be you know, adrenaline running,
Speaker 1: be all sorts of things. But what we have is
Speaker 1: almost counterintuitive. We have a situation where we know that
Speaker 1: scene has been tampered with. Allison, you've just pointed out
Speaker 1: three different versions of somebody putting something over her head
Speaker 1: or taking it off, taking something else off, and putting
Speaker 1: something else on. Why you've got the gun, the weapon
Speaker 1: being flicked off or placed in another part of the room,
Speaker 1: at least by two people who've admitted that, Gareth Price
Speaker 1: and Robert Simmons. They both admitted handling the weapon.
Speaker 5: Why.
Speaker 4: And you've got the ammunition.
Speaker 1: And the ammunition take an aaken.
Speaker 6: Out, not put in a pocket to give to the
Speaker 6: police if they if they ask for it, or not
Speaker 6: put in a pocket, tied put on a side table
Speaker 6: for correct some reason. You've also got the gun, the
Speaker 6: other gun in the cupboard. You've got the mystery of
Speaker 6: the missing door handle. Yep, you've got various different slightly
Speaker 6: different but still different accounts of the exact position of
Speaker 6: Amy's body. Yeah, you've got people go, people admitting they're
Speaker 6: going in and out of that room and having to
Speaker 6: jam the door open.
Speaker 1: Force the door. You've got to mate. And then on
Speaker 1: top of that, we've got the other the new evidence,
Speaker 1: which which Brighton denies. But let's just introduce a fourth person,
Speaker 1: which Brighton denies vehemently. But our witness who says that
Speaker 1: she ran crime stoppers and gave them this information. That
Speaker 1: evidence is that Brydon moved the body with Price. So
Speaker 1: perhaps you've got four people. So we've got we've got
Speaker 1: three or four people. It's the only way I can
Speaker 1: describe it. Again, language is important, but tampering with that scene,
Speaker 1: and my question is why, why they hell would you
Speaker 1: do that in the aftermath of such a tragedy.
Speaker 2: So you have Robert who's told, you know, there's a
Speaker 2: gunshot or there's been an accident, something's happened, and he's said, oh,
Speaker 2: my son's made of mistake. He's shot her. So of
Speaker 2: course he's taken the pellets out of the gun and
Speaker 2: put the cartridges on the table. You know, there was
Speaker 2: no focus at any time on Amy except someone's throwing
Speaker 2: their jacket on her head, and then they drew the
Speaker 2: scene opposite sort of to where she was found. So
Speaker 2: there's all these inconsistencies, which again we go back to
Speaker 2: the coroner who seems to just brush over those.
Speaker 6: Two things strike me about this, right, the abnormality of
Speaker 6: that behavior. I think any right thinking person would think.
Speaker 4: That, how would I react in that situation.
Speaker 6: I don't know, but I certainly would not take cartridges
Speaker 6: out of a gun that even if I thought my
Speaker 6: daughter in law had killed herself, I wouldn't do that.
Speaker 4: I wouldn't want to touch the gun. I wouldn't want
Speaker 4: to go anywhere near.
Speaker 6: The gun that had just ended the life of someone
Speaker 6: very close to me, exactly.
Speaker 4: And then the differences in account.
Speaker 6: You can sort of see in that traumatic moment, that
Speaker 6: you might mistake a red toe for a blue toll
Speaker 6: because it's probably read on the toll. Right, Amy's head
Speaker 6: is catastrophically injured, Right, so you've got read.
Speaker 2: In your head, or there's blood coming through the town.
Speaker 1: Correct.
Speaker 4: Yes, Yeah, jacket is a completely different item.
Speaker 6: And I would think that in that traumatic moment, those
Speaker 6: scenes are burned into your brain and you would have
Speaker 6: heard this Liam as I have many many times.
Speaker 4: I will never forget that scene as long as I live.
Speaker 6: You know, they're going back to last week core memories, right,
Speaker 6: and the second goes back.
Speaker 4: To Judy's original point contemporaneous notes.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 6: If someone had bloody secured that scene properly, none of
Speaker 6: these questions would have had to have been asked, because
Speaker 6: there would have been proper forensic photographs taken of every
Speaker 6: single inch of that room. There would have been an
Speaker 6: initial statement taken from both those detectives who remembered were
Speaker 6: happy to look at it from a photograph on a phone.
Speaker 6: But it goes back to then. As soon as that
Speaker 6: decision is made in the rush in the dark, in
Speaker 6: the amid the chaos with the kids, you know, God
Speaker 6: knows where, and you know, conflicting accounts coming in from
Speaker 6: all over. No, the scene is lifted, the number of
Speaker 6: the cleaner is given to David Simmons' father, and we
Speaker 6: go and the cleaners come in and and there, and
Speaker 6: then Amy's Body's turned up.
Speaker 4: With bags on their hands. Again contemporaneous notes.
Speaker 6: If everyone's doing their job properly and logging everything and
Speaker 6: noticing everything and discussing everything, then we'd know exactly who
Speaker 6: puts the bags on Amy's hands and why, and that
Speaker 6: was that done forensically secure.
Speaker 2: Well, you know the other thing too, when they talk
Speaker 2: about the clothing, but I think it's Robert he says, oh, well, yeah,
Speaker 2: they were dressed in broad shorts. It's liked by all accounts.
Speaker 2: You know where at winter it was a rainy, miserable day,
Speaker 2: They've been out shopping wood, they're about to go out hunting,
Speaker 2: and he's in broad shorts.
Speaker 3: Well, I thought that was something with Joshua Brydon to
Speaker 3: when he made a note in his first statement that
Speaker 3: David Simmons changed his clothes from blue jeans and a
Speaker 3: singlet blue singlet, and the fact that he made a
Speaker 3: point of that. But that was supposedly before Amy's death,
Speaker 3: So there's that. Also, there's a post it notes, which
Speaker 3: I think is an interesting thing. Nobody asked Robert Simmons
Speaker 3: what was on the post it notes? They we know
Speaker 3: he took them, he destroyed them. He made a note
Speaker 3: of I didn't realize it was that bad, meaning he's
Speaker 3: drinking and he didn't realize it was pretty bad. And
Speaker 3: no one really went down that line, did they. They
Speaker 3: didn't really talk to him or discuss with him, or
Speaker 3: question him or about that.
Speaker 2: You know, I think with Robert Io he has that
Speaker 2: father guilt because that's his. And when he talks about
Speaker 2: when he went and asked David, he uses the term
Speaker 2: he said, I'm going to ask you this once. Well,
Speaker 2: anyone who's been a little kid with a father who's
Speaker 2: pretty cranky, we'll sell you that they say that before
Speaker 2: they whack you with their belt.
Speaker 1: I think, just coming back duly to your original point.
Speaker 1: We touched on this couple of weeks ago another episode
Speaker 1: that Tim you'll recall, but I think it's compelling. I
Speaker 1: really think it's compelling. Again. You know, you don't have
Speaker 1: to be a trained psych to figure out the sort
Speaker 1: of the intent or the background to what could possibly
Speaker 1: allow you to say certain things. That triple zero call
Speaker 1: that Robert Simmons was on, you know, for a father
Speaker 1: to say that, you can recant all you like, but
Speaker 1: that's the heat of the moment. And if you say,
Speaker 1: I think you know my son has just shot somebody,
Speaker 1: I think my son has dot dot dot. If you
Speaker 1: think if you can contemplate in the heat of the moment,
Speaker 1: your son or your daughter or whatever being capable of
Speaker 1: doing something like that. I think that says a thousand
Speaker 1: more words.
Speaker 6: Well, that word contemplate is interesting because to me, you
Speaker 6: make that call, you say the first thing, your first impression, right,
Speaker 6: that's you're not thinking about, oh gosh, what's gonnap? What's
Speaker 6: happened here?
Speaker 1: Exactly?
Speaker 6: You get on a call, you're being asked by an
Speaker 6: emergency service, what's happened? And these are his exact words.
Speaker 6: Someone shot her. I think it must have been my son.
Speaker 6: He's not here, and then he's gone on. My son
Speaker 6: made the mistake, but she's been shot in the head
Speaker 6: and she's dead. You're not saying that to your neighbor
Speaker 6: someone you know really well. You're not saying that to
Speaker 6: one of his mates that you know. You're saying that
Speaker 6: to a complete stranger on the end of the phone
Speaker 6: to an emergency service, presumably in the in the knowledge
Speaker 6: that a it will be recorded or be it will
Speaker 6: be acted on, or see it will be certainly noted
Speaker 6: down and.
Speaker 4: You'll be asked about it later.
Speaker 1: So it's an impulsive comment coming from the depths of
Speaker 1: what you know about the relationship, about your son's character,
Speaker 1: about potential physical attributes. If I can use that word
Speaker 1: what your son may or may not be capable of
Speaker 1: in that moment. I think I think that says a lot, Dulie.
Speaker 2: I think too. We're all trained, or it's instinct when
Speaker 2: we're talking to ambulance, maybe not the police, but ambulance.
Speaker 2: They're going to help. We all trust the ambos. They're
Speaker 2: not our enemy, they're going to help us. So he's
Speaker 2: just gone, this is what's happened. I'm going to tell
Speaker 2: you the truth because you're the ambo. We flicked around
Speaker 2: and he's decided that I'm going to believe David, and
Speaker 2: he's talking to the police. It's a different story. But
Speaker 2: I want to know what was said in the thirteen
Speaker 2: second phone call that when David called him thirteen seconds.
Speaker 3: Now, Robert denies ever speaking to David in that thirteen
Speaker 3: second that it didn't go to voicemail, but he says
Speaker 3: he never received that call. But I will say a
Speaker 3: couple of things. I just wanted to mention, just to
Speaker 3: give you a bit of context, because it's about moving forward, right,
Speaker 3: and that's what we want to do.
Speaker 5: Now.
Speaker 3: We've got almost seven thousand signatures on our petition to
Speaker 3: get this case referred to the Office of the Director
Speaker 3: of Public Prosecutions, So please please sign that petition. I
Speaker 3: can't believe the coroner didn't refer it at the time
Speaker 3: because you know, to look at the case files as
Speaker 3: we know it, because we've been through you know, we've
Speaker 3: cited the documents that she had access to. So please
Speaker 3: share and sign our petition.
Speaker 1: How many do we need?
Speaker 3: Well, when do we do it? With the lady vanishes?
Speaker 3: And that was getting Marrion put on the missing person's register.
Speaker 3: We got twenty thousand plus, maybe even thirty thousand plus,
Speaker 3: so it'd be good to get close to that. Just obviously,
Speaker 3: I mean, what does it take for the government to
Speaker 3: act right? I mean they put this team, the police
Speaker 3: team on there, but what does that mean. I mean,
Speaker 3: just putting a police team to follow up the tips
Speaker 3: as a result of our podcast. It just doesn't it's
Speaker 3: not enough. They need to move it forward. So and
Speaker 3: just note this week's rejections that we've got because we
Speaker 3: obviously put the call out to come on conversation, So
Speaker 3: this week's rejection from the top the premiere. But he will,
Speaker 3: you know, so to send questions his way if we
Speaker 3: want to, if we want to answer this quickly the
Speaker 3: Attorney General or he's just ignored us. This week when
Speaker 3: I've sent a request the police minister just politely declined.
Speaker 3: The police union president was going to do it and
Speaker 3: then changed his mind. So yeah, we're running out of
Speaker 3: those people in those top places to speak to who
Speaker 3: don't want to speak to us. Obviously, and given the
Speaker 3: questions on notice that are put by Collier to quickly
Speaker 3: in the Parliament and the very very beige nothing response,
Speaker 3: there's no point putting questions to them in writing. So
Speaker 3: that's where we're at at the moment. Just to give
Speaker 3: you a bit of an idea. What's the word again
Speaker 3: in transisigence. I can't say I knew I would have
Speaker 3: trouble saying this. Please tell us leave go through what I.
Speaker 1: Was just thinking, just thinking why are're running through that list?
Speaker 1: I was thinking, well, what could we do to actually
Speaker 1: get somebody to be accountable in a high place. These
Speaker 1: people who are in a position of power who just
Speaker 1: want to do nothing to help help families like Amy's
Speaker 1: just want to do nothing to help to help people
Speaker 1: who pay their tax and try and live a good life.
Speaker 1: They just do nothing from from their cushy officers in
Speaker 1: Parliament and the police headquarters, and it just makes me
Speaker 1: makes me quite angry. Actually, I just the level of
Speaker 1: the level of of selfishness and they just lack they
Speaker 1: totally lack care and and any any notion of public
Speaker 1: duty just does my head in the amount of money
Speaker 1: we pay them and they just they have no concept
Speaker 1: of public duty. So I wonder, you know, what do
Speaker 1: you have to do to you? I mean, maybe I
Speaker 1: don't know. I should have been down at the zoo
Speaker 1: this this week, Tim, You know, when I had the
Speaker 1: big press conference and they announced the concession on the
Speaker 1: free tickets for the kids to go and see the giraffes.
Speaker 1: There's actually more. There was more monkeys down at the
Speaker 1: zoo that day than there's been for a Well.
Speaker 6: How would they describe with you, you know, bullet and bullying,
Speaker 6: a China shot, liamy elephant.
Speaker 4: With a long memory. Yeah, tiger's talking here, pray.
Speaker 1: I don't know. It would have been some good animal analogies.
Speaker 1: I should have gone there, and obviously that was very important.
Speaker 1: If I had, if I had a new train line
Speaker 1: to open, maybe I could have gone there.
Speaker 6: Well, it's one of those announcements most Sundays, so yeah, yeah,
Speaker 6: maybe next week Royal Show there'll be some free tickets,
Speaker 6: use some more taxpayers money.
Speaker 1: Maybe they're down there giving away show bags or something anyway,
Speaker 1: something important. But we can only keep trying, Elison.
Speaker 6: Well we can also as Allison has asked people to
Speaker 6: sign change dot org. If you if you google change
Speaker 6: dot org and then just google justice for Amy.
Speaker 4: I'm sure it will come up.
Speaker 6: If the listeners want to add their name and add
Speaker 6: their voice to it, then a great suggestion.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Maybe maybe if we did get to twenty thirty thousand,
Speaker 6: then the AG might answer an email.
Speaker 1: Well, there is a tipping point, isn't there There is
Speaker 1: a tipping point where that is, Tim, But there is,
Speaker 1: you'd hope so there is. That's great.
Speaker 3: I agree. There's an election coming up, maybe when they're
Speaker 3: out in the hustings. We asked them every every minister
Speaker 3: we come across, So what about Amy Wensley? Would you
Speaker 3: like to see or would you back so you know,
Speaker 3: justice for Amy Wensley.
Speaker 1: There will be a tipping point if we get enough signatures.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I backed that call from Tim. Please please
Speaker 1: sign that petition so it's change dot org and then
Speaker 1: you just.
Speaker 6: And then I'm pretty sure if you googled Justice for Amy,
Speaker 6: it's a petition put up by Anna, obviously, who we
Speaker 6: all know and respect really highly, and a lovely picture
Speaker 6: of Amy with one of her daughters, which if that
Speaker 6: doesn't pull out your heartstrings, then you're a You're as
Speaker 6: hard hearted as some of the high positions.
Speaker 3: It's about people power. Speaking of people, Julie, I mean
Speaker 3: your support for Anna. You were obviously held bing and
Speaker 3: you keep you keep digging. I notice often Anna will
Speaker 3: send me, Oh, you should see what Julie found.
Speaker 2: Look at this relentless Yeah. Look, it's not just what
Speaker 2: I realized after the first few months of looking into
Speaker 2: just how horrible this is. It's not just Amy. There's
Speaker 2: been so many Amys after Amy. I'll be frightened that
Speaker 2: if anything happened to me, there won't be justice, The
Speaker 2: truth won't be told, and you know the powers that
Speaker 2: be are not on my side, especially quickly. You know,
Speaker 2: he fought tooth and nail to get a man out
Speaker 2: of jail. What's the problem now when all the facts
Speaker 2: are there, and so the message is, hey, women don't care.
Speaker 2: So I think to all the women out there and wa,
Speaker 2: please sign the petition.
Speaker 3: It's very somber message that we're sending out, but it's
Speaker 3: what it takes, you know, You just you've got to
Speaker 3: be relentless. And sometimes, you know, I think, oh gosh
Speaker 3: when I listen to our conversations and that where we're
Speaker 3: not pulling any punches. But this is worth it. This
Speaker 3: is important. This is about lives. You know, what's more
Speaker 3: important than this? What's more important about the truth and justice?
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, there's nothing if you can't look after the
Speaker 1: community in this sort of regard. What's the point.
Speaker 6: I've said often that Amy was very lucky, he's very
Speaker 6: lucky to have Anna in a corner.
Speaker 4: And having listened to you speak.
Speaker 6: So eloquently and passionately this morning, Julie, I think Anna
Speaker 6: is lucky to have you in a corner. So thanks
Speaker 6: very much for sparing some time to join us today.
Speaker 2: Thank you. It's an absolute privilege to be in Anna's corner,
Speaker 2: and thank you so much for what you're doing with
Speaker 2: the podcast.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thanks.
Speaker 4: Everybody speak, Thanks week
Speaker 2: Unto me again,