WEBVTT - Conversations 2: Super Sleuth 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:06.440 This podcast contains information and details relating to suicide. We 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:12.000 urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline. I'm 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:19.000 thirteen eleven fourteen thirteen eleven fourteen, or visit them at 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:22.279 lifeline dot org dot AU. 0:00:28.520 --> 0:00:29.000 Welcome. 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:33.159 I'm Alison Sandy here for the second conversations and I'm 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:35.960 joined by Tim Clark and Liam Bartlett. 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:37.839 Nice to see again, Alie, Hey Elie. 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:41.000 Good to c too. And we have a special guest 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:44.120 this week. Her name is Julie Spate and if I 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:45.840 look at her Wikipedia. 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:52.800 Page, Australian former cyclist, eight time national champion at Australia's 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:57.800 first female Olympic and Commonwealth Games track cyclists, competing in 0:00:57.880 --> 0:00:58.840 the women's. 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:00.640 Sprint of it at the nineteen eighty eight sold Summer 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:03.720 Olympics and winning a silver medal in the nineteen ninety 0:01:03.800 --> 0:01:08.080 Auckland Commonwealth Games. At the time, Julie, you were described 0:01:08.120 --> 0:01:11.880 as quote a class above any other female writer in 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:14.440 the country. Welcome time. 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:20.440 Is about commitment, you do, Julie, So thank you for 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:23.280 being here, Thanks for having me. 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:25.520 Legend trail blozer, that's me. 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:27.560 Watch out now. 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:31.520 The connection here, Julie, we could actually call you our 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:36.240 first super sleut except you came on board before the podcast. 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:39.679 Can you tell us about that? Yeah? Well, I met 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:44.600 Anna through work. We both worked for a high profile 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:51.240 government agency this shall forever remain unnamed. And yeah, we 0:01:51.280 --> 0:01:55.160 worked in a task force together and we quickly struck 0:01:55.240 --> 0:02:01.200 up a friendship over our love of noodles and me 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:05.880 picking on Anna for her love it whgehood and Royal Dalton. 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:10.040 But you know, I've known her for about six months 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:17.480 before she ever mentioned anything about Amy. She's fiercely private, 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:21.480 which for her, like all of the things that she's done, 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:26.160 is just so phenomenal because she is a very private, 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:29.680 serious person who doesn't like to get out there and 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:35.640 speak in public and really speak about this really deep 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:36.800 private pain. 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:39.799 Can we remind our listeners again, for the sake of 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:43.600 anybody who's jumped on board recently, Allison, that Julie is 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:48.880 referring to Anna Davey. Anna was Amy's art So Anna 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:53.840 is the sister of Amy's mum, Nancy, And that's. 0:02:53.720 --> 0:02:57.640 Very interesting that you should mention Anna's private nature, Julie, 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:01.720 because she has had to be Amy's voice for the 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:07.640 past ten years, and she's very publicly driven her quest 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:10.320 for justice. So for you to say that it is 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:14.200 an anathema for her to do that is quite the 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:18.480 insight because we all know Anna is outspoken and go 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:21.160 getting and you know, never never backed down. 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:23.000 And a bit loose with the exclusive. 0:03:23.400 --> 0:03:24.120 Absolutely. 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:24.519 Yeah. 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:28.400 You know, it's interesting because in the position the task 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:34.240 was that we're in, she was just a dedicated worker 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:37.840 and just got the job done. But there was always 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:42.480 this sort of heaviness and she just sort of mentioned 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:48.600 one day, oh, she also stalked me on Wikipedia and said, oh, 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:51.960 I saw your Wikipedia page and I said, a it's 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:53.840 a bit embarrassing, and she said, I've got a bit 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:57.760 of a secret too. I'm on Australian story tonight. And 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:03.160 I went okay, and I looked at it next day 0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:05.800 when we were supposed to be having a work meeting. 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:09.360 We just had a chat for about an hour on 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:14.680 government time and I just said, it all makes sense now, 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:20.720 you know, you're just completely dedicated to this complete injustice. 0:04:20.920 --> 0:04:24.800 And of course, you know, I don't believe what I 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:28.359 see on TV or here on the radio, no offense. 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:32.200 But I thought, well, I'm going to have to look 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:37.679 up the coroner report and just have a read see 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:40.840 what was going on. And I read through it the 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:45.160 first time and I thought that can't be right. And 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:49.760 then on subsequent readings, which honestly probably I've read it 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:55.440 about twenty five times, and it just gets more unbelievable 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:58.599 each time I read it. And I just said to 0:04:58.640 --> 0:05:02.200 and this is unbelievable. What can I do? 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:04.839 Yeah, it's a great comment. Every time I read it, 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:07.440 I think, how can the coroner even have believed this? 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:11.440 It is so unbelievable. And I'm not I'm not even 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:14.240 cracking half a gag there. I mean, it's not even 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:18.160 it's not even a joke. And that's something to sort 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:20.080 of pause and think about as well, Julie. I mean, 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:25.159 you raise a really good point, Tim. If anyone who doesn't, 0:05:25.839 --> 0:05:28.479 because I'm a big fan of that, you know, be 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:31.800 your own editor, find out for yourself. Don't don't just 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:34.240 take our word for it. Don't just believe you know 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:35.960 what we are trying to say, not that we're trying 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:38.120 to pull the wall over anybody's eyes. We're trying to 0:05:38.160 --> 0:05:42.920 in fact open people's eyes. But do your own research, 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:46.960 you know, don't take our word as gospel. Google Amy 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:50.440 Wensley and google every part of that you know, and 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:54.440 go to whatever search engine that you favor, keep going, 0:05:54.880 --> 0:05:57.760 dive a bit deeper, do things like read part of 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:00.760 the Coronial Inquest. But if that's too for you, go 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:03.360 and have a look at there's other video online, there's 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:08.120 our podcast material, There's a whole stack of other reference points. 0:06:08.160 --> 0:06:11.320 There's various news organizations have done news stories. And familiarize 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:14.760 yourself with the story. And I'll guarantee you I'd pay 0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:17.520 money to you that I haven't got if you come 0:06:17.560 --> 0:06:19.760 back to me and say that doesn't amaze me, it 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:22.880 doesn't surprise me. I found something sort of unbelievable. I 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:25.960 found something incredulous. You know, it has sort of triggered 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:29.320 triggered my sense of mystery because I just can't work 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:31.760 that out. Because anyone who can work it out, they 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:34.320 need more than an Olympic gold medal. Julie wish I 0:06:34.360 --> 0:06:37.840 had one. You know, it's pretty amazing. Can I just 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:39.920 ask Julie on the end of that, I mean, what 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:44.039 of all those things you've read and dived into, what's 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:47.200 the most amazing thing to you? You know, what sort 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:49.479 of stands out? Is there one particular thing that you 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:52.360 just you think there's absolutely no explanation for that. 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:54.560 Cat me consult my notes. 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:57.960 Oh that looks like a bible, doesn't it. 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:02.960 Well, I mean you can go for the obvious thing, 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:08.880 which is the detectives in take notes, and that's like 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:15.960 number one clear concise notes, contemporaneous notes, and they just didn't. 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:19.320 I think they've swapped notes at the end to say, oh, 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:21.480 what have you got mate? You know that was late 0:07:21.480 --> 0:07:23.440 that night, just before one of them bug it off 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:27.960 on leave. So that's the obvious thing. But let's not 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:30.880 go for obvious. Let's just go straight to the coroner. 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:37.560 Have you seen Amy? She's this slight pittsite woman and 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:42.960 we're supposed to believe that she's beating up this big 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:47.640 beefy guy anyway, so she's the aggressor. She says things 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:52.400 like volatile relationship instead of just call it out for 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:56.640 what it is, which is he's an abusive partner. You know, Amy, 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:01.080 she had problems that was my She had problems with 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:06.840 David's drinking. And I just thought David's drinking wasn't Amy's problem. 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:10.520 It was his problem, and she was affected by it. 0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:15.520 And we're meant to believe that the police have arrived 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:18.880 and they've looked around where we've heard by all accounts, 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:23.440 there's this massive blue that's happened. Mirrors have been thrown 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:29.360 and miraculously didn't break. Which ideare you to move a 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:34.600 mirror without cracking it. There's things been thrown, people are yelled, 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:38.319 she's been thrown to the floor, Tanks have been smashed, 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:44.120 and yet we're supposed to believe that David politely knocks 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:48.079 on the door, which I remind you had the inside 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:50.959 hand or removed, so how was she going to get 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:57.280 out anyway? And the coroner just brushes over there and says, okay, yeah, 0:08:57.320 --> 0:09:00.640 you asked if you're okay, and you're not on the door, 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:04.680 and you helped her pack, Yet earlier he said he 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:07.760 told her to f off and get out of the house. 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:15.600 So I was just struck, like completely dumbfounded by the 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:20.439 coroner's language, and the fact that they have a professor 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:28.439 of biomechanics, all the signs of abuse, and all of 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:31.559 the instances that all the friends that said we saw this, 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:35.200 we know this, and I'm going to take what these 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:38.680 three blokes say, or four if you count rob it. 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:43.520 All of their statements don't line up. They all say 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:47.960 something different. But the thing from the scene was also 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:53.680 the cops walk in and there's guns everywhere. In the bedroom, 0:09:53.920 --> 0:10:00.120 there's ammunition unrestrained, there's a crossbow in the shed. I've 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:04.520 got two kids under the age of six running around 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:07.400 in this house. We're going to take all your guns 0:10:07.440 --> 0:10:10.800 off you and bloody keep them because you're using them 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:13.959 under the influence of drugs and alcohol. There's young kids 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:14.560 in the house. 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:18.760 Just a little claritation, they did confiscate the guns. 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:21.319 So hello, you guys got a par as I know. 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:25.240 It's interesting, Julie that you pick out the language that 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:29.480 the coroner uses in the findings and the way the 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:32.800 way she frames it, and the frame always seems to 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:38.240 be a little bit off away from Amy really ironically, 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:40.560 given that it was an inquest to find out how 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:43.960 Amy died. Thinking back to sitting in the in the 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:46.600 court for that week in a bit, there was a 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:48.920 lot of focus on Simmons. 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:50.120 Always, poor Simmons. 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:53.920 Yeah, in terms of the build up to him giving evidence, 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:57.120 because the way the Coroner's court in wa do it 0:10:57.200 --> 0:11:00.439 is well, I don't know if they take it from 0:11:00.480 --> 0:11:02.559 the movies or whatever where they put the star witness 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:06.560 last always and there is a legal founding for that 0:11:06.640 --> 0:11:10.679 in that they think, well, if all the questions are 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:13.480 going to be around this person, then it is only 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:16.079 fair to them that that all the other evidences is 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:18.120 put before we get them there. 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:20.600 And and there's you know, there's competing things for that. 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:23.800 I mean, you don't want any you know, surprise evidence 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:26.400 coming after that person has then given evidence. 0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:28.080 To have to call them back. So there's a practical 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:28.800 thing for it. 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:33.440 But obviously, you know, journalistic and anticipatory sense, you want 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:35.200 to hear from this person and you've got to wait 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:37.600 right till the end, right, So there was always that 0:11:37.679 --> 0:11:40.200 looming over the inquest as well. You know, well, well 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:41.920 you know, we'll hear from Simmons at the end, and 0:11:41.960 --> 0:11:42.960 then he didn't turn up. 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:44.840 And then he did but on the video link, and 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:48.080 you know, and there were there. 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:50.800 Were concessions made so he could appear the way that 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:53.319 you know, that was that was comfortable for him. 0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:55.880 But again but again to him to that point, like 0:11:56.760 --> 0:11:59.280 it was all structured, that last bit was structured so 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:01.920 that it was it was comfortable for him. Yeah, but 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:04.800 why why are those concessions. It's like Julie's pointing out, 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:08.240 it's the language. Indeed, that language is incredibly important, isn't it. 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:11.719 And hearing Julie talk about that now makes me think, well, 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:15.240 I wonder whether the coroner sort of took that whole 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:19.520 atmosphere away from the hearings and it sort of slid 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:20.920 into the language. 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:24.240 That she used in the findings. 0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:28.360 I think it's definitely that. But I think she's giving 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:32.400 him the answers. She's sort of saying, Okay, I understand 0:12:32.600 --> 0:12:36.080 this is what happened. And she's definitely given him that 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:40.320 leeway to be out of that pressure cooker of the courtroom. 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:45.640 And we can't really read what his physical reactions are 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:49.000 because the body doesn't lie. We don't see him twitterly, 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:52.200 you know, like I'm sure he's just in this sort 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:55.880 of space where he doesn't have to feel the emotion. 0:12:56.960 --> 0:12:59.120 And why is she doing that? Because if he's telling 0:12:59.160 --> 0:13:01.480 the truth, tell the truth. 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:05.000 But but why is it like that some seven years afterwards, 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:08.400 six seven years after when the inquest is held, Why 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:11.480 is the coroner taking that approach and that this is 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:13.280 an open question. I don't I don't know the answer. 0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:15.760 I'm not being I'm not being smarter. I mean, I'm 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:17.559 to pontificate on it. 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:21.640 Maybe maybe she felt something better than nothing, but they 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:25.600 the previous day they declined to go down the route 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:27.400 that that's the Coroners Act give them. 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:31.080 You can issue a warrant, you can a bench warrant. Yeah, 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:31.760 you can. 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:34.240 Take people into custody if you feel it's in the 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:36.439 interests of justice or it's going to help you get 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:42.439 to your conclusion. Criminal cases are a lot different juries. 0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:45.840 Every day in you know, courtrooms up and down this 0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:49.120 state are always told don't just listen to what the 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:53.400 person in the box says, listen to how they say 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:56.920 it and. 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:58.640 And their their body language well while they're saying. 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:01.320 It, exactly to Julie's point, because it's all part of 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:04.760 the package of the impression that you get from the 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:08.600 person being asked the questions right, particularly exactly, particularly if 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:12.760 it is an accused that goes from the that goes 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:15.559 from the dock into the witness box, and jurors are 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:19.240 actually instructed that's what they have to do, not not 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:23.120 if you like, you know, check their body language. 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:26.760 Judges tell jurors, no, this is all part of your 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:29.280 your duty as a jura. 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:31.000 You've got to look at the whole thing, not just 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:34.320 be and i' mean the reinstructed. Don't don't just take notes, 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:36.320 you know, don't don't don't have your head down just 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:39.600 transcribing what they're saying. Look at what they're saying, and 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:42.400 look at how they're saying it as well, which is 0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:46.480 why judges are sometimes very much on the side of 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:50.920 non caution when talking about video links for witnesses, particularly 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:51.800 important ones. 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:53.760 Lawyers have to go. 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:57.560 To court and apply for a special witness order so 0:14:57.600 --> 0:14:59.880 that a person can appear on a video link for 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:02.480 reason because and sometimes they get knocked back for that. 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:03.800 Yeah, it's absolutely. 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:06.600 Because it's much more preferable to have a person in person, 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:11.120 you know, yards away from a dura for them to 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:11.880 get the full picture. 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:13.640 Well, I don't disagree with the word you say, so 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:18.080 all right. So considering then, given that a coronial inquest 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:21.760 is the ultimate fact finding mission, that's what it's all about, 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:25.600 gaining information, why wouldn't you, as coroner want to extract 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:29.680 one hundred percent of the information and demand that the 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:32.720 person at the center of all this is physically present 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:36.440 in the courtroom, in the actual courtroom. I mean, why 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:39.040 was he given such a That's an enormous concession and also, 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:43.440 can I just remind everybody the family have to sit 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:47.920 there for days on end, the family of the dead person, 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:51.400 they have to sit there for days on end and 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:55.800 go through that trauma. Are you seriously suggesting that then 0:15:55.840 --> 0:15:57.600 at the end of all that we give the bloke 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:00.800 at the center of all this a complete discount by 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:03.840 letting him waltz down from the pub to some other 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:06.520 room to sit in splendid isolation and just give his 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:09.360 stuff on video. I mean, it just it does my 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:11.640 head in. But again for the reason, can I just 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:14.560 go back to that question, why would the coroner take 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:18.400 that easy path for Simmons and why would the language 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:21.400 all through the thing be very pro suicide? 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:24.920 Well, I mean, the coronial brief was there, and she 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:27.920 would have had all the statements from the police officers right, 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:32.640 including Larry Brownford's, including his two uniform colleagues that turned 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:39.480 up first, including cold case. But I you know, maybe 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:42.560 maybe I almost dedicated as usually because I did read 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:43.960 through the coroner's phone. 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:44.680 It's again. 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:48.040 Just about a week ago, and I still keep going 0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:51.360 back to those blooming expert reports Liam, which he had 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:55.200 two different experts. And I tell you why, because there's 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:57.840 funny enough. There's an inquest that started yesterday up in 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:02.240 Broom about another long standing mystery of a death of 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:05.320 a young person by the name of Josh Warner Key 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:08.720 And you know one of the experts that's doing the 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:14.359 crime scene Ecklund. Yeah, so it'll be interesting to see 0:17:14.359 --> 0:17:16.560 the language that comes out of that and maybe a 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:18.399 compare and contrast many years on. 0:17:18.560 --> 0:17:19.880 But yeah, I noticed that. 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:28.280 Yeah. 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:30.800 So going back to you, Julie, what did you do 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:34.800 after that, after that reading and your initial it looks 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:37.960 like very particular note taking, And what did you say 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:40.120 to Anna after after you'd read those findings. 0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:42.160 Well, first of all, I went out and shopped about 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:46.040 a time. I would just had a few deep breaths, 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:49.960 and I just said, and I look, there's so much 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:53.679 in this And she said, I haven't been able to 0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:58.120 read through it. It was horrific enough to watch her 0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:02.359 to be there in the courtroom and she or here 0:18:02.520 --> 0:18:08.879 Amy portrayed as having calls her own death. You know, 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:13.159 she was depressed, she was abusive, she was all these things. 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:17.680 If you listen to what everyone says, she wasn't those 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:21.520 things at all. And I've never known her. I don't 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:26.080 know her. I only know from what I'm reading and 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:30.920 looking at through the lens of don't I don't know anything. 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:33.359 I'm just going to read what's on the page, and 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:36.240 I'm going to pull out what doesn't make sense. And 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:40.440 one of the things like, you know, Tim, you said 0:18:41.320 --> 0:18:45.840 the style witness, well, isn't he a bloke who has 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:51.639 said my partner committed suicide? And then years later, you know, 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:55.640 you say, well, what do you think you hear, David? Oh, 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:59.960 because the police didn't do their job. Well, no, apparently, 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:04.080 according to you, they did do their job because they 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:08.400 said suicide, so they did their job. Now you're saying 0:19:08.440 --> 0:19:12.200 they didn't do their job. Well, if it was suicide, 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:15.159 they did do their job, do you know what I mean? Like, 0:19:16.160 --> 0:19:19.600 it doesn't make sense. And then you've got poor old 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:23.520 Gareth Price. You know, you have to feel sorry for 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:29.399 this simple like is hooked up with these friends who 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:33.560 you know, they're awful and I'm not too much sympathy. 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:37.080 But even he says, oh, you know, Liam, the truth's 0:19:37.119 --> 0:19:40.480 going to come out, hasn't the truth? Or it did 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:40.880 come out? 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:44.760 Yeah, exactly exactly. 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:50.240 They can't even stay on the same path. They're just like, 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:53.760 this is what happened, but oh, you'll get to the 0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:58.480 truth or you know, it's it's like, guys, you're hopeless, 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:03.000 you know, hopeless witness and poor Amy was this depressed, 0:20:03.040 --> 0:20:08.199 terrible person when all of the evidence suggests that she 0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:14.320 was this fiercely strong little dynamo who loved the kids, 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:19.240 who was trying to keep the relationship despite how much 0:20:19.280 --> 0:20:22.399 he didn't care about it. And all we get to 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:28.440 see is what she has said in text messages when 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:33.520 she's trying to say, look, come on, let's try and 0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:37.720 make this work despite how useless he was. What do 0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:42.320 we hear from him? Where's his text messages? What is 0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:46.080 he saying back? And you know, we get that guy's 0:20:46.840 --> 0:20:50.560 both on text messages because they don't really care or 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:55.439 they don't know how to spell. But you know, like 0:20:55.920 --> 0:20:59.840 all we hear is this betrayal of Amy as this 0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:05.399 depressed weak person. But the evidence, when you look at it, 0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:06.160 she wasn't. 0:21:06.680 --> 0:21:08.760 Julie, I've got a question for you in relation to 0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:11.159 what Anna told me about the bags on the hands. 0:21:11.200 --> 0:21:13.520 You had a bit of information in the forensics. Can 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:14.280 you tell me about that? 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:19.200 Yeah, definitely. So I lived in Perth for about seven years, 0:21:19.400 --> 0:21:21.800 and for one of those years When I was first 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:25.440 over there, I worked for a funeral home. They had 0:21:25.440 --> 0:21:29.119 a herst driver advertisement and I'm the last driver in 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:33.240 the world. So I thought, idea at a uniform and I. 0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:36.200 Had haring skills intersect exactly. 0:21:36.800 --> 0:21:41.040 But unfortunately on the first day they said, no, you're 0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:43.640 a funeral director's assistant and you have to go and 0:21:44.080 --> 0:21:46.879 wash the bodies and help. And so I was a 0:21:46.880 --> 0:21:51.359 bit of a baptism by fire. However, So this was 0:21:51.440 --> 0:21:55.359 two thousand and one and we had the contract for 0:21:55.600 --> 0:22:02.600 all coroner deaths, you know, for sudden accidents that are 0:22:02.880 --> 0:22:06.240 north of the bridge, because everything you know in Perth 0:22:06.400 --> 0:22:10.240 is defined the river. So we had north of the 0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:13.680 river contract, which meant that we would go and pick 0:22:13.760 --> 0:22:19.919 up decease people from accidents and you know, horrific things. 0:22:20.840 --> 0:22:24.679 But at no time did we ever put bags on hands, 0:22:25.240 --> 0:22:30.360 not once. And what struck me is that they released 0:22:30.359 --> 0:22:34.880 the scene from any forensic evidence and then they asked 0:22:34.920 --> 0:22:37.640 the contractors to come in, which would have been whoever 0:22:37.800 --> 0:22:41.280 was south of the river. They would have wrapped Amy 0:22:41.320 --> 0:22:45.760 in a sheet, placed in the bag, taken it to 0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:52.159 Charlie Gardner's where the coroner is. So when did the 0:22:52.160 --> 0:22:55.359 bags get put on great question. 0:22:56.119 --> 0:23:00.960 Because reading from that coroner's report, he says, post more examination, 0:23:02.160 --> 0:23:04.159 it says both of EMI's hands had been covered with 0:23:04.240 --> 0:23:09.480 paper bags secured by masking tape before she was brought 0:23:09.960 --> 0:23:12.480 to the mortuary, and it says they were removed and 0:23:12.600 --> 0:23:15.120 multiple spots of dried blood was noted over the back 0:23:15.160 --> 0:23:17.840 of the left hand and wrist and over the fingers 0:23:17.920 --> 0:23:21.639 of the left hand, and then gunshot residues were taken 0:23:21.720 --> 0:23:22.440 and submitted. 0:23:22.880 --> 0:23:24.399 So this is one of the problems to Tim, isn't it. 0:23:24.440 --> 0:23:26.920 I mean, this was one of the issues that came up. 0:23:27.240 --> 0:23:31.080 It's just remind our listeners again. So the left hand 0:23:31.440 --> 0:23:35.840 had the burn mark, which was a burn from the barrel, 0:23:36.760 --> 0:23:38.720 which is the reason they determined that she couldn't have 0:23:38.760 --> 0:23:41.280 pulled the trigger with her left hand. Forget about the 0:23:41.320 --> 0:23:44.639 biodynamics for a moment, but just from that, the burn 0:23:44.680 --> 0:23:47.880 mark was a barrel mark, so it was a defensive 0:23:47.920 --> 0:23:51.560 mark on her left hand. Her right hand was found 0:23:52.080 --> 0:23:54.359 to be placed under her body. She was sitting on 0:23:54.400 --> 0:23:57.760 her right hand, but they said later that there was 0:23:57.880 --> 0:24:01.680 no gun residue on her right hand. And this is 0:24:01.720 --> 0:24:03.960 where they came back to the bags. Wasn't it, Julie. 0:24:04.200 --> 0:24:08.080 Yeah, absolutely, It seemed to me that they were playing 0:24:08.160 --> 0:24:12.879 catch up. But I guarantee you, as a contractor working 0:24:12.880 --> 0:24:14.880 at that time, I and that was two thousand and one. 0:24:15.560 --> 0:24:19.680