1
00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,640
Speaker 1: You may have heard Bishop Gauchi on the show yesterday

2
00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:06,200
Speaker 1: about the changes to the Northern Territories Anti Discrimination Act

3
00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:10,400
Speaker 1: and the concerns that he has. Well, the Australian Association

4
00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,520
Speaker 1: of Christian Schools agree that the proposed changes to the

5
00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:18,360
Speaker 1: Discrimination Act could cause serious problems for faith based schools.

6
00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:21,119
Speaker 1: Now joining me on the line is Vanessa Chang, the

7
00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:25,959
Speaker 1: executive officer of the Australian Association of Christian Schools. Good

8
00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:30,160
Speaker 1: morning to you, Vanessa, Good morning, Thanks you, Katie, Thanks

9
00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:32,440
Speaker 1: so much for your time this morning. Now, Vanessa, what

10
00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:34,640
Speaker 1: are your concerns around these changes?

11
00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,640
Speaker 2: Can We're really concerned about these changes proposed by the

12
00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,000
Speaker 2: Northern Territory government. And what your listeners need to understand

13
00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:45,840
Speaker 2: is this bill passes in its current form next week,

14
00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,080
Speaker 2: the Northern Territory will be the only state of territory

15
00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:53,040
Speaker 2: the entire country that does not have protections for religious

16
00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:56,680
Speaker 2: schools to employ people of the same faith. And what

17
00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:02,520
Speaker 2: we're concerned about is that Christian schools to Catholic schools

18
00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:06,160
Speaker 2: could be sued for not choosing to employ someone of

19
00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,320
Speaker 2: the same faith. And for us, that's fundamental, it's a

20
00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:13,600
Speaker 2: fundamental protection that the Northern Territory government is proposing to

21
00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:17,280
Speaker 2: strip away from our schools and ultimately it's going to

22
00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:19,920
Speaker 2: remove choice to parents in the Northern Territory and choosing

23
00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:22,640
Speaker 2: a genuine faith based education for their children.

24
00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:25,560
Speaker 1: Vanessa. For those of us that maybe don't have our

25
00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:29,640
Speaker 1: kids at a faith based school, why is this so

26
00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:34,600
Speaker 1: important for those faith based schools, well, Katie.

27
00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:38,240
Speaker 2: In any organization, your people define your culture. It's not

28
00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:40,360
Speaker 2: just a name on the front gate. It's much more

29
00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,000
Speaker 2: than that. So for us to be able to call

30
00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:45,800
Speaker 2: ourselves a Christian school, it just makes sense that we

31
00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:48,240
Speaker 2: need to be able to have Christian staff working in

32
00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:53,000
Speaker 2: our schools. The law that the Attorney General is proposing

33
00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:57,280
Speaker 2: to pass next week, we'll actually discriminate it against religious schools.

34
00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,480
Speaker 2: But the interesting thing is political parties are still protected

35
00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:04,360
Speaker 2: and their ability to hire people of the same political beliefs.

36
00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,320
Speaker 2: I imagine when Chancey Paige is employing advisors, he would

37
00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,240
Speaker 2: want people that share the same values of the Australian

38
00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:15,280
Speaker 2: Labor Party. And all we're asking for is that same protection,

39
00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:18,560
Speaker 2: the ability and a jobing to be to ask somebody,

40
00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:22,080
Speaker 2: are you a Christian? Are you active in your local church?

41
00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,240
Speaker 2: Are you happy? To read the Bible with the students,

42
00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,320
Speaker 2: pray with the students, talk about what it is to

43
00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:30,959
Speaker 2: be a follower of Jesus Christ. These are the things

44
00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:33,919
Speaker 2: that are fundamental in the Christians ruel for us in

45
00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:37,079
Speaker 2: terterents to enroll their children in a Christian school. They

46
00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,480
Speaker 2: understand that and they want that belief system talk to

47
00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:44,120
Speaker 2: their children. They may not be Christian themselves. Our schools

48
00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:46,799
Speaker 2: are open to a wide range of families from all

49
00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:50,480
Speaker 2: sorts of faith and cultural backgrounds. But when parents are

50
00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:53,440
Speaker 2: paying the extra to send their children to a faith

51
00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,480
Speaker 2: based school, they must have confidence that they're getting what

52
00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:57,200
Speaker 2: they're paying for.

53
00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,359
Speaker 1: Now, from your perspective, how many schools around the Northern

54
00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:05,520
Speaker 1: Territory is this going to impact and how large could

55
00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:06,320
Speaker 1: the impact be.

56
00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,919
Speaker 2: It's really significant, not only Northern Territory Christian schools, of

57
00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:14,720
Speaker 2: which there are seven in the Northern Territory. I know

58
00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,519
Speaker 2: there are thousands of students that also attend Catholic schools

59
00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:19,760
Speaker 2: that don't have the figures at hand, but there's a

60
00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:24,160
Speaker 2: significant portion of Northern Territory independence schools that have a

61
00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:27,639
Speaker 2: faith basis. And as Bishop Charles Gouchi said yesterday, he's

62
00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:31,240
Speaker 2: taking these changes very seriously, and it's actually concerned about

63
00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:34,880
Speaker 2: whether his schools would continue to be viable. And I

64
00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,680
Speaker 2: can understand his concerns. They're concerns that we've been talking

65
00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,760
Speaker 2: about for so many weeks now, and we saw this bill,

66
00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:43,400
Speaker 2: which by the way, hasn't been consulted on at all.

67
00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:46,600
Speaker 2: When the Attorney General said on your program yesterday that

68
00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:49,200
Speaker 2: this has been consulted on, I just want to point

69
00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,560
Speaker 2: out that no faith leaders saw any of these changes

70
00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,320
Speaker 2: that have been introduced in the final bill that will

71
00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:59,920
Speaker 2: be passed next week. In particular, section thirty seven A,

72
00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,720
Speaker 2: which is the protection we rely upon the religious educational exemption,

73
00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:07,640
Speaker 2: that's been completely removed and has not been consulted on

74
00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:08,760
Speaker 2: with any faith leader.

75
00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,360
Speaker 1: So from the drafts that you had previously seen, that

76
00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:15,040
Speaker 1: was still in there, that thirty seven I e. That section,

77
00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,280
Speaker 1: and that's now been removed and there's been no consultation

78
00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:19,320
Speaker 1: with the government on that.

79
00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:25,520
Speaker 2: Exactly right, Katie. Thirty seven A provided for an exemption

80
00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:29,080
Speaker 2: around religious belief and activity, and that was in the

81
00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:32,239
Speaker 2: draft bill that was put out for consultation back in August.

82
00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:34,880
Speaker 2: We provided feedback on their bill, and there are many

83
00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:37,479
Speaker 2: other elements of the bill that we have concerned about

84
00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:42,320
Speaker 2: as well, but in particular that protection around employment of

85
00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:45,800
Speaker 2: staff of the same faith was completely stripped away with

86
00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:49,520
Speaker 2: no consultation. We've been trying for weeks now to get

87
00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,440
Speaker 2: a meeting with the Chiefs Minister and the Attorney General,

88
00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,120
Speaker 2: and our request has been refused. And I understand that

89
00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,480
Speaker 2: other faith leaders share similar frustration. So it was quite

90
00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,040
Speaker 2: misleading for the Attorney General to say in your program

91
00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,560
Speaker 2: yesterday that they've consulted widely on this bill when he

92
00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:08,080
Speaker 2: knows full well that the complete removal of thirty seven

93
00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:10,440
Speaker 2: A was not included in that draft bill that they

94
00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:12,360
Speaker 2: put for consultation back in August.

95
00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:15,479
Speaker 1: Vanessa, what would you say to anybody that's listening this

96
00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,040
Speaker 1: morning that's thinking, you know that thirty seven A was

97
00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,719
Speaker 1: just a you know, just a clause that meant that,

98
00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,200
Speaker 1: you know that Catholic schools or faith based schools could

99
00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:28,520
Speaker 1: discriminate against certain people.

100
00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,680
Speaker 2: Look, Katie, what it's all about really is choice for parents.

101
00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:37,120
Speaker 2: When parents choose a religious school and pay fees to

102
00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:40,479
Speaker 2: send their child to a faith based school, they're expecting

103
00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:42,640
Speaker 2: that they get what they pay for, that the staff

104
00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,920
Speaker 2: who are employed by that school understand the faith will

105
00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,920
Speaker 2: be role models of the faith. Teachers do much more

106
00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,800
Speaker 2: than simply transmit dry curriculum knowledge. I think here in

107
00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,760
Speaker 2: your program the Attorney General made the comment that it

108
00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:59,599
Speaker 2: doesn't matter whether your teaching US or English in the

109
00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,599
Speaker 2: religious school or a state school, it's the same information

110
00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,360
Speaker 2: that's shared. Well, we know that teachers do much more

111
00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:09,960
Speaker 2: than just transmit information. Their role models are to students,

112
00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:15,440
Speaker 2: whether it's in the playground, whether it's coaching sporting teams

113
00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:19,560
Speaker 2: or on school camps. And our teachers, we expect them

114
00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:23,040
Speaker 2: to be modeling the faith, being able to answer questions

115
00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:27,400
Speaker 2: about God in the playground, in the classroom. So I

116
00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:29,960
Speaker 2: think by his comments yesterday, he shows you have a

117
00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:34,200
Speaker 2: very narrow understanding of what religious education is and not

118
00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,720
Speaker 2: regardless of whether it's a Catholic, Christian or a Jewish school.

119
00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,400
Speaker 2: You know, our people are what make us different and

120
00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:42,040
Speaker 2: what make us who we are.

121
00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,679
Speaker 1: What is like, what's your national body saying at the moment,

122
00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,040
Speaker 1: because I know that on a national scale, we had

123
00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:52,239
Speaker 1: mentioned this yesterday that the Federal Attorney General had said

124
00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,159
Speaker 1: that you know that there was liaising happening. I believe

125
00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:59,080
Speaker 1: with the Australian law society on that national scale before

126
00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:03,359
Speaker 1: any change made nationally to this aspect of their act.

127
00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:08,200
Speaker 1: So you know what's being said nationally from your perspective

128
00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,360
Speaker 1: within the Australian Association of Christian Schools.

129
00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,480
Speaker 2: That's a really good point, Katie, and something that we

130
00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:18,840
Speaker 2: have been agitating for as well. At a federal level,

131
00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:22,360
Speaker 2: the Australian Labor Party made a commitment to faith groups

132
00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,400
Speaker 2: that people of faith would be able to employ people

133
00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:28,640
Speaker 2: in their religious school to share the same faith. That

134
00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:32,120
Speaker 2: was an election commitment that the Albanezi Labor government made

135
00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,200
Speaker 2: to faith groups prior to the election. And so the

136
00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,040
Speaker 2: Attorney General, the Federal Attorney General, Mark Grafis, has asked

137
00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:40,960
Speaker 2: the Australian Law Reform to look at this because it

138
00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:43,800
Speaker 2: is a complex area of law. There is the important

139
00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,480
Speaker 2: role of balance in human rights of different people and

140
00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:51,240
Speaker 2: so that Law Reform Commission inquiry will be due to

141
00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:54,640
Speaker 2: report back to government in April next year. So what

142
00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,720
Speaker 2: we're asking the Northern Territory government is to hold off

143
00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,360
Speaker 2: on passing this law next week until that with thoughts

144
00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:04,760
Speaker 2: has run its course and is reported back to federal government,

145
00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,600
Speaker 2: because what we're asking for is a nationally consistent approach

146
00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,880
Speaker 2: to these issues. It's no good having the Northern Territory

147
00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:13,840
Speaker 2: with the one set of laws and different to other states.

148
00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:16,840
Speaker 2: And I'm sure you'd agree that religious readom is actually

149
00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,680
Speaker 2: the fundamental human rights that's protected in international law. And

150
00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:25,160
Speaker 2: yet the Northern Territory government is completely ignoring this world

151
00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:31,320
Speaker 2: respective international human rights and ignoring the real trait concerns

152
00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:35,360
Speaker 2: that respective leaders such as the Catholic Bishop, Shile, Scouts

153
00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:37,800
Speaker 2: you have, and other Faithe leaders have around this law.

154
00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:41,360
Speaker 2: So we're asking him to hold our pause, sit down,

155
00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:43,520
Speaker 2: listen to us about our concerns. We want to come

156
00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:47,480
Speaker 2: to the table with constructive solutions. We have proposals that

157
00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:50,160
Speaker 2: we think are fair and reasonable and can solve a

158
00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,080
Speaker 2: lot of these problems. But the difficulty is we haven't

159
00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:55,360
Speaker 2: even been able to have that conversation with the government.

160
00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:59,080
Speaker 1: Well look, it's going to be incredibly interesting to see

161
00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:02,680
Speaker 1: now whether whether the Attorney General or the Chief Minister

162
00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:06,720
Speaker 1: are prepared to sit down with yourself, with Bishop Gauchi,

163
00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:11,160
Speaker 1: with any of the faith based organizations that are really

164
00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:15,600
Speaker 1: saying we need further consultation here, particularly you know, following

165
00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:18,560
Speaker 1: on from what you've just told me, where there had

166
00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,520
Speaker 1: been consultation, but then with that draft bill you know

167
00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:26,000
Speaker 1: that's now been seen where the thirty seven A has

168
00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:29,800
Speaker 1: been taken out, To then not have further consultation or

169
00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:33,760
Speaker 1: further discussions I think is a bit disingenuous at this point.

170
00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:38,080
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I was really gobsmacked by the comments made by

171
00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,679
Speaker 2: the Attorney General yesterday when he said that there's been consultation.

172
00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:44,840
Speaker 2: It's not just my experience. I've spoken to other faith

173
00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,640
Speaker 2: leaders who are also extremely disappointed with the lack of

174
00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:50,600
Speaker 2: consultation and it seems like the government has the intention

175
00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:53,480
Speaker 2: of just ramming this through next week without listening to

176
00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:57,200
Speaker 2: the concerns that faith leaders have around the territory.

177
00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:02,280
Speaker 1: Well Australian Association of Christian score Rules executive Officer Vanessa Chang,

178
00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:04,800
Speaker 1: we appreciate your time this morning. Thanks very much for

179
00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:07,480
Speaker 1: coming on and just explaining to us the concerns that

180
00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:07,920
Speaker 1: you've got.

181
00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:10,680
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Katie, thank you