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Speaker 1: The Chief Minister, Michael Gunner, yesterday delivered the Northern Territory's budget,

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Speaker 1: announcing significant improvements in its debt and deficit levels, but

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Speaker 1: the budget books are still tough reading, with no surplus

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Speaker 1: forecast for at least the next decade. Mister Gunner unveiled

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Speaker 1: the one point four billion dollar deficit for the upcoming

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Speaker 1: financial year. The territory's net debt is expected to reach

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Speaker 1: nine billion dollars in twenty twenty one twenty two, one

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Speaker 1: billion better than previously forecast. Unfortunately, though, we're not able

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Speaker 1: to have the Chief Minister live on the radio this

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Speaker 1: morning due to a double booking with his schedule, but

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Speaker 1: I caught up with him earlier today. Take a listen,

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Speaker 1: Chief Minister and Treasurer Michael Gunner, Good morning, Chief Minister.

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Speaker 1: With these numbers are so large, it is quite incomprehensible

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Speaker 1: I think for everyday Territorians to really understand the level

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Speaker 1: of debt, to give some perspective, how.

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Speaker 2: Much is the government borrowing a day?

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Speaker 3: So we've actually you I proved our interest payments. We

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Speaker 3: are now down to just over a million a day

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Speaker 3: in interest, which is down from what we were paying

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Speaker 3: last year. Obviously, fiscal strategy remains the same. Control the virus,

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Speaker 3: grow the economy, repair the budget. Were now to do

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Speaker 3: all three things in this budget. So the nine hundred

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Speaker 3: million dollar improvement the bomb line, a billion dollar improvement

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Speaker 3: on net debt. You can do that if you grow

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Speaker 3: the economy, control the virus. So we're very keen. So

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Speaker 3: I get the numbers aren't great. I want to improve them.

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Speaker 3: I think we're showing that we can improve them if

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Speaker 3: we control the virus and grow the economy.

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Speaker 1: When you talk though about how much the government is

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Speaker 1: borrowing a day, I understand it is just over a

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Speaker 1: million dollars in interest a day.

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Speaker 2: How much are we borrowing a day?

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Speaker 3: I can prob do it a math for you, but

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Speaker 3: we don't actually don't borrow it on a daily basis.

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Speaker 3: That makes sense. You borrow and lump some so I

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Speaker 3: can get back to you on how much that might be.

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Speaker 3: But obviously debt is around nine bills, not great billion

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Speaker 3: dollars less than what's going to be, which is better obviously,

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Speaker 3: but still a lot of work to do now.

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Speaker 1: You did spin a very positive story yesterday when handing

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Speaker 1: down the budget, but we are still talking about to

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Speaker 1: use your words eye watering levels of debt nine billion

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Speaker 1: dollars It is set to expand to eleven point four

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Speaker 1: billion by the end of the Ford estimates period in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty four to twenty five, when taxpayers are going

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Speaker 1: to be forking out four hundred and seventy eight million

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Speaker 1: in annual interest repayments. By the end of the decade,

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Speaker 1: net debt is expected to balloon to thirteen point seven

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Speaker 1: billion dollars. How are you going to manage these levels

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Speaker 1: of debt?

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Speaker 3: I think we've shown in this budget how we can

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Speaker 3: do that. We have grown the economy about to improve

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Speaker 3: a bomb line by nine hundred mili over two years

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Speaker 3: and reduce net debt by a billion.

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Speaker 2: Is much of that attributed though, to the GST.

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Speaker 3: Yes, because we made tough, hard decisions in recent years,

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Speaker 3: we're able to keep down our spending and so when

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Speaker 3: extra revenue comes in, we're able to put it against

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Speaker 3: our borrings.

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Speaker 1: But you have been incredibly critical over the years of

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Speaker 1: that GST carve up and the way that it's impacted territorians.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if the main reason now that the budget

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Speaker 1: books are looking better than last is due to that

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Speaker 1: GST revenue, then really are you able to take credit

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Speaker 1: for that.

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Speaker 3: A couple of important points there. In the last year

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Speaker 3: of the CLP's government fifteen sixteen, they received three point

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Speaker 3: three billion in GST. In these budget books where we

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Speaker 3: are getting more GST than we expected, we're getting two

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Speaker 3: point nine billion, so still four hundred million dollars less

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Speaker 3: of what the CLP received in there last year.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about your government though, when you've been in

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Speaker 1: power now for quite a few years, so realistically, what

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Speaker 1: actual savings are you making.

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Speaker 3: Yes, so we've made a number of very tough savings

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Speaker 3: decisions over recent budgets that put us in the position

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Speaker 3: where when that extra unanticipated GST came in and two

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Speaker 3: point nine so still four undred million dollars less than

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Speaker 3: what the CLP received, we're able to put it against

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Speaker 3: buy ring. So you can only make those decisions if

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Speaker 3: you run a tight ship. We're running a tight ship,

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Speaker 3: and so as the economy grows and revenues increase again,

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Speaker 3: then we can keep making sure we tackle our deficit

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Speaker 3: and debts. That's my intention. So I think you'll see

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Speaker 3: those numbers improve over the Ford estimate.

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Speaker 1: So just taking that into a how much are those

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Speaker 1: savings well saving us this financial year for example.

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Speaker 3: So it's all accumulative and it has led to significant savings.

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Speaker 3: So if you look at our expenses, they're well down,

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Speaker 3: so you're looking at a nine hundred million dollar improvement

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Speaker 3: over those two financial years. The savings are recurrent, so

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Speaker 3: they're year on year.

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Speaker 4: I can get you a.

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Speaker 3: Number from all the savings scsces who were essentially made

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Speaker 3: over the last five years. The biggest one that we're making, though,

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Speaker 3: that remains in the books, will be the four hundred

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Speaker 3: and twenty million dollar saving from the wages policy, which

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Speaker 3: would have the effect if you don't do that, if

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Speaker 3: you don't control wages, you were cut about eighteen hundred

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Speaker 3: public servis.

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Speaker 1: Well, as you've said that wage freeze for public servants.

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Speaker 1: I spoke to Kay Densley yesterday who said that your

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Speaker 1: policy is going to result in people leaving the Northern Territory.

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Speaker 1: Chief Minister, are you going to go through with this

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Speaker 1: four year wage freeze?

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Speaker 3: It's one thousand bucks a year for every public servant.

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Speaker 3: I think it's the right policy for our times. It's

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Speaker 3: how we keep our public service at work, and we

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Speaker 3: want them at work. There are magnificent they're doing an

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Speaker 3: incredible job. I don't want to lose any public servants.

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Speaker 3: This goes to all of what you are asking me

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Speaker 3: at the start around our debt and deficit.

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Speaker 4: We've got to be serious about this, We've got to

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Speaker 4: tackle it.

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Speaker 3: The alternative will be eighteen hundred public servants leaving our

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Speaker 3: public service, and that is not acceptable to me.

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Speaker 2: So do public servants just need to suck it up?

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Speaker 3: I think that public servants do an amazing job. I

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Speaker 3: don't think they'll suck it up. I think public servants genuinely.

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Speaker 3: No one understands the territory better. I think they genuinely

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Speaker 3: understand our budget. They genuinely understand what I'm asking of them.

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Speaker 3: I'm not asking of them anything that I'm not doing myself.

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Speaker 3: Police are all on.

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Speaker 4: The pay frees as our eCos.

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Speaker 3: So it's now a question to the public service one

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Speaker 3: thousand bucks a year every year?

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Speaker 4: Is that okay?

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Speaker 2: Okay?

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Speaker 1: You have also announced these new rules in an effort

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Speaker 1: to rain in the spending from government departments. They are

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Speaker 1: in line with the Langulent recommendations. As I understand, agency

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Speaker 1: staff executives are going to face tougher consequences, ranging from

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Speaker 1: warnings to termination for breaching caps to prove budgets and

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Speaker 1: employee expenses by more than one percent? Are departmental heads

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Speaker 1: really going to be sacked if they go over budget?

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Speaker 3: Extremely serious about this. We're putting it into law about

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Speaker 3: that one percent trigger. Then the please explain an independent investigation,

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Speaker 3: suspension of the CEO or dismissal of the CEO. We

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Speaker 3: need departments to stay within the budget. A cabinet takes

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Speaker 3: months to come up with a budget. We think very

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Speaker 3: carefully about how much money we allocate to agencies. You

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Speaker 3: need to stay within that allocation. We take this very seriously.

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Speaker 3: This is how we keep repairing the budget.

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Speaker 1: So how many of those executives or those those heads

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Speaker 1: of departments went over budget last financial year for example.

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Speaker 3: Well, their last financial year was the COVID impacted year,

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Speaker 3: so I'm very understanding of that.

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Speaker 1: So final we had a situation though in the past

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Speaker 1: where we have had those chief executives go over their budgets.

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Speaker 4: So to finish off their last one.

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Speaker 3: The final on your reports for the last year haven't

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Speaker 3: come through yet, but I'm very understanding of COVID. I

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Speaker 3: think one reason why we're doing this is that agencies

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Speaker 3: in the past have gone over. I don't want to

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Speaker 3: pick on health, but they went over in many, many years.

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Speaker 3: They now pulled their heads in and come in under

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Speaker 3: which is fantastic. I thank them for that. It's evidence

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Speaker 3: that you can maintain a discipline come in under budget.

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Speaker 3: And we're now bringing this in as a measure and

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Speaker 3: warning to all CEOs.

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Speaker 1: I guess so what I'm getting to is, obviously we

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Speaker 1: know that COVID is something that's had a huge impact

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Speaker 1: on so many and particularly those departments, but it does

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Speaker 1: demonstrate that there's going to be blowouts to budgets. So

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Speaker 1: what I'm getting at is, are you going to make

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Speaker 1: excuses for those chief executives and for those departments if

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Speaker 1: they do go over budget rather than following through with

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Speaker 1: what you're outlining.

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Speaker 3: Have to be a seriously good please explain. I think

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Speaker 3: COVID is an example of a seriously good Please explain,

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Speaker 3: But have to be seriously good, Please explain if you're

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Speaker 3: going to go with a budget, Because we do a

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Speaker 3: lot of effort into setting a budget, you know, as

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Speaker 3: a cabinets in months working on it, and then for

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Speaker 3: agency to just blow it, that's money being spent without

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Speaker 3: cabinet having a decision over it. So you know, I

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Speaker 3: think you can understand our frustrations. So we're very serious

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Speaker 3: about this.

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Speaker 1: So really, I guess that pre COVID warning that you

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Speaker 1: had put out through the Langlent review of you know,

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Speaker 1: getting tough on these chief executives, they haven't done what

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Speaker 1: you asked.

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Speaker 3: Oh no, I think they've done an extraordinary job during

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Speaker 3: COVID and if you look at our bottom line, we

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Speaker 3: improved it by six hundred million dollars in that financial year,

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Speaker 3: so we're able to keep a tight ship. But I

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Speaker 3: think everyone can also understand that COVID has an impact.

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Speaker 3: I'm understanding of last financial year. This financial year very serious.

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Speaker 1: Now, Chief, I will go into some more detail of

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Speaker 1: some of the programs and different funding announcements that were

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Speaker 1: made yesterday, but I'm very aware of the fact that

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Speaker 1: we're extremely pressed for time this morning. While there is

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Speaker 1: a two point three billion dollar improvement on last year's forecast,

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Speaker 1: the net debt to revenue ratio by then will be

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Speaker 1: one hundred and eighty one percent. It is significantly higher

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Speaker 1: than the government's target ratio of fifty percent. Does this

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Speaker 1: figure demonstrate that the measures that you've implemented will make

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Speaker 1: no real difference long term when it comes to managing

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Speaker 1: the budget.

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Speaker 3: So we've significantly improved on that debt to revenue ratio.

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Speaker 3: So that's that's an amount I believe outside the Ford estimates.

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Speaker 3: I think we've shown that we can improve our deficit

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Speaker 3: and our debts. My expectation is the economy will keep growing.

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Speaker 3: That's our prediction in the forecasts. And there's thirty five

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Speaker 3: billion dollars worth of projects that are not in our forecast.

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Speaker 3: So my opinion, I think we've demonstrated we can repair it,

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Speaker 3: and we'll keep repairing it. That's what you've got to do,

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Speaker 3: and so you won't see us hit that.

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Speaker 1: All right, Chief Minister, we are going to need to

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Speaker 1: move along and talk about the legislation around youth crime.

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Speaker 1: This legislation is going to be passed on urgency these sittings.

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Speaker 1: What is going to be included in that bail reform?

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Speaker 3: So to step it out, if you are given the

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Speaker 3: privilege of bail, and while on bail, you have a

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Speaker 3: serious breach of bail, for sample, committing a fresh offense,

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Speaker 3: now obviously bail has failed and your bail will be

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Speaker 3: revoked and then a considered decision can be made about

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Speaker 3: what happens next, because obviously bail in the instance has failed.

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Speaker 3: When courts order electronic monitoring, there's a forty eight hour

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Speaker 3: gap while they assess the person and put the monitoring

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Speaker 3: in place. We want police to be able to fill that gap,

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Speaker 3: so't there's no loophole on electronic monitoring. And we want

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Speaker 3: somebody start diversion to complete diversion. I think that's a

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Speaker 3: very sensible thing. So that's that's probably the main things

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Speaker 3: they've got attention about what's in the what's in the

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Speaker 3: bill that we're put introducing.

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Speaker 1: Chief Minister, What will be considered a breach of bail?

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Speaker 1: Does it need to be a serious offense or what

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Speaker 1: are we talking here?

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Speaker 3: So we're serious offense we design is anything not technical

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Speaker 3: or trivial essentially.

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Speaker 2: So considered a serious offense.

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Speaker 4: So committing a fresh offense, failing to attend court.

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Speaker 2: So a fresh offense could be a break and.

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Speaker 3: Entry, any of the any of the offenses essentially that

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Speaker 3: are on the prescribed list, is my understanding, will consider

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Speaker 3: a serious breach.

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Speaker 1: So is that any different to what we currently have

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Speaker 1: in place the prescribed defenses?

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Speaker 3: That goes to the first instance of bail being decided.

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Speaker 3: This is if you are on bail and you commit

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Speaker 3: a fresh offense, then your bail is revoked.

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Speaker 1: So can you just refresh my memory because my understanding

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Speaker 1: is that a prescribed defense is an assault, a sexual assault.

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Speaker 4: We're adding to the assault on police.

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Speaker 2: So what's been added to.

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Speaker 3: That list unlawful entry and a number of other things like that.

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Speaker 3: So where there there's a long list. Yeah, so there's

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Speaker 3: a long list being added to what is a prescribed

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Speaker 3: offense failure, failure to attend court. So essentially those things

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Speaker 3: that I think are common sense that would be considered

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Speaker 3: the serious breach of bail and then that bowl's revoked.

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Speaker 1: So in a media release after a current affair ed,

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Speaker 1: you said the measures will include tougher than ever consequences

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Speaker 1: for breach of bail. This means if a young person

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Speaker 1: commits a serious breach while on bail, their bail will

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Speaker 1: be automatically revoked and they will be taken into custody.

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Speaker 1: So that is still going to be the case, but

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Speaker 1: they've got to be part of those prescribed defenses.

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Speaker 2: But that list is expanded.

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Speaker 1: That list is expanded, and it will include things like

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Speaker 1: unlawful entry, assaults, police assaults, yes, sexual assaults, stealing a.

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Speaker 4: Car, yes, I'm very sure of that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, no doubt we're going to see a bit

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Speaker 1: more detail of that list of prescribed offenses. You are

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Speaker 1: being heavily criticized eyes by community groups and health organizations,

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Speaker 1: Danila dilba am Sand and a coalition of indigenous members.

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Speaker 2: Of your own party.

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Speaker 1: Are these changes going to be watered down in an

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Speaker 1: effort to meet their concerns.

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Speaker 3: I think you've seen what was said we're going to do.

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Speaker 3: We've been very consistent on I'm being existed again this

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Speaker 3: morning and what we're going to do. I think a

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Speaker 3: lot of their Christians go the vibe of things. I

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Speaker 3: think when you look at the details, as I've just

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Speaker 3: described to you, Katie, a very logical set of things

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Speaker 3: that we're looking at doing, I think they're quite common sense.

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Speaker 3: I struggle to see how the community is safer if

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Speaker 3: you leave someone out on bail offending. I struggle to

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Speaker 3: see how the community is safe to safer if you

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Speaker 3: don't ask someone to complete their diversion. It's completing a

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Speaker 3: diversion that sees you break the cycle. I think that's

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Speaker 3: very sensible.

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Speaker 1: Are you frustrated that these groups are coming out and

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Speaker 1: really trying to quash these changes or to have them

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Speaker 1: watered down, when the community is really screaming out for

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Speaker 1: some common sense in this space.

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Speaker 3: I respect everyone's right to have their opinion and make

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Speaker 3: their points, so that's okay, I get it. But for me,

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Speaker 3: I think these are quite logical series of reforms. I

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Speaker 3: think the community probably expects a lot of this is

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Speaker 3: already happening. To be honest, I think this doesn't just

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Speaker 3: meet community standards. I think this is what the community

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Speaker 3: thought the standard was.

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Speaker 1: Chief Minister, we are going to have to wrap up

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Speaker 1: those flights from India though the Prime ministers saying May fifteen,

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Speaker 1: when do you think they're going to recommits?

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Speaker 3: I completely understand where the Prime Minister's coming from. I

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Speaker 3: think this is an important humanitarian mission. I want those

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Speaker 3: flights to recommence asap. I just need that clinical advice

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Speaker 3: to come in that say it says it's safe. We

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Speaker 3: are meeting regularly with the cho and others about that,

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Speaker 3: and if we can recommence on May fifteen, very happy

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Speaker 3: to but I need the clinical advice obviously to back

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Speaker 3: that up. The Prime Minister, by the way, understands that completely.

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Speaker 3: No one's going to breach to the you know, the

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Speaker 3: clinical advice, but the moment is to ferreal for May.

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Speaker 3: But we are actively working on can we get May

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Speaker 3: fifteen going?

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Speaker 1: Okay, so May fifteen is on the cards as far

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Speaker 1: as you're concerned.

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Speaker 2: It's not totally.

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Speaker 3: Out of exactly where the PM's coming from. We're coming

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Speaker 3: from the same space. We want people, We get it.

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Speaker 3: We need to get Aussie home from India, absolutely get it.

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Speaker 3: Just have to put the safety of territorians first and

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Speaker 3: we need that clinical advice.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I reckon that is a very good point to make.

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Speaker 1: And there are a lot of people concerned about those

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Speaker 1: numbers out there at Howard Springs, so we've got to

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Speaker 1: get it right. But definitely this is a humanitarian crisis.

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Speaker 1: Chief Finishter, Michael Gunner, thanks for your time this morning.