1 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the technics 2 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 1: used by leading innovators to get so much out of 3 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: their day. I'm your host, Doctor Amantha Imber. I'm an 4 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: organizational psychologist, the CEO of Inventium, and I'm obsessed with 5 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: finding ways to optimize my work day. Today's show is 6 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:24,119 Speaker 1: another My Favorite Tip episode, where I go through the 7 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: back catalog of How I Work interviews and I pick 8 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: out my favorite tip from the interviews that I have done. 9 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: My guest today is Eddie Perfect. Eddie is a singer, songwriter, 10 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: an actor, a comedian and currently has not one but 11 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: two shows on Broadway, King Kong and Beetlejuice. Australian listeners 12 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:47,560 Speaker 1: might know Eddie from playing Mick Holland in Offspring and 13 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: Theater Goes might be familiar with some of Eddie's work, 14 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: such as Shane Warn The Musical and Vivid White. In 15 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: this extract of my chat with Eddie, I asked him 16 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:01,319 Speaker 1: about how we dealt with bad reviews and if you're 17 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: listening to this and thinking, how does that relate to me? 18 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 1: I think there are so many parallels to be drawn 19 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: from artists that receive bad reviews and the types of 20 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,759 Speaker 1: reviews that the rest of us receive at work from 21 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: customers and peers and our boss if we have one. 22 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: The only difference is really that your reviews are probably 23 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,680 Speaker 1: not as public as the ones that Eddie has received. 24 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:25,960 Speaker 1: So here is Eddie talking about how he thinks about 25 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: and deals with bad reviews. 26 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 2: But I'm still writing, you know, like bigger and bigger 27 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 2: and better things, despite the fact that I can't remember 28 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 2: the last time I got a good review. Like I 29 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:42,759 Speaker 2: it's like, and I think some particularly uncharitable person wrote 30 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 2: to me on Twitter and was like, why do you 31 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:50,919 Speaker 2: keep getting jobs when nobody likes your nobody likes your writing? 32 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 2: And I was like, that's a really good that's a 33 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 2: really good question. I mean, obviously, obviously the people that 34 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 2: employ me aren't idiot. I would hope they're not idiots. 35 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 2: And I don't think that there are any kind of accidents. 36 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 2: But I tend to write stuff that polarizes people. And 37 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:15,079 Speaker 2: you know, like everything from the plays that I've written, 38 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 2: to the comedy shows that I've written through to you know, 39 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 2: Shane warn the musical for example. You know, it's split 40 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 2: people down the middle. You know, people loved it, some 41 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 2: people hated it. A lot of the time, you know, 42 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 2: with a new idea that it's particularly kind of audacious 43 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 2: and bold, people sort of hate it. But then eventually 44 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,679 Speaker 2: people can kind of like acclimate to the idea and 45 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 2: it becomes a little more palatable. And I don't sort 46 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 2: of set out to kind of ruffle any feathers, but 47 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 2: it's just this fact of my career. If I look back, 48 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 2: I've kind of gotten mixed reviews, and so it's very 49 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 2: no one wants to get a no one wants to 50 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 2: get a bad review. Also, technically reviews are really any 51 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 2: of my business, and what really matters is what an 52 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 2: audience thinks, because I mean, if you had to make 53 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:17,359 Speaker 2: a choice as a person that makes a living out 54 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:21,239 Speaker 2: of art, you know, do you want to have good 55 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 2: reviews but have nobody come and see your shows and 56 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 2: make no money out of it, or would you like 57 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 2: to have bad reviews and sell your shows and have 58 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 2: audiences love it and be able to continue making a living. 59 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 2: And much as it's great to be critically affirmed, it's 60 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 2: much better to actually have an audience. And sometimes you 61 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 2: don't have to choose between those things. Sometimes you get 62 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 2: an audience and you get a great critical response. So 63 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,119 Speaker 2: it's kind of a complicated thing, and I think every 64 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 2: artist kind of comes to their own peace or whatever 65 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 2: with it. But I must say that I've always been 66 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 2: really philosophical about it because I remember my first review 67 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 2: was so bad, and I really it was really wounding, 68 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 2: and you know, I was performing that show, so I 69 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 2: had to go out on stage, and in my head, 70 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 2: I thought that everybody had read that review and they 71 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 2: were sort of sitting there in judgment of me, and 72 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 2: it was awful sort of place to be. And I 73 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 2: had to get to a point where I was like, 74 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,599 Speaker 2: you can't worry about that stuff. I mean, now I 75 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 2: can read reviews of them, and there's certainly been like 76 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 2: King Kong, like severely negative critical feedback, but he's working 77 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 2: with audiences. Beatlejuice offended half the critics in DC and 78 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 2: the other half really loved it and open. Over the 79 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 2: course of the season, we started to see the kind 80 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 2: of audience that we we were retracting, and they were 81 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 2: like really interesting, kooky audience, kind of cultish audiences. People 82 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 2: coming back multiple times, people who had learnt the so 83 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,239 Speaker 2: songs and would shout out lines and sing songs. 84 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: I'm like, I. 85 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 2: Couldn't believe it was crazy, you know. And so there 86 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 2: are like lots of different sort of levels of reality 87 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 2: you have to deal with, but one thing that is 88 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 2: really you know, I was even talking about this last night. 89 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 2: I had a drink with Alex Timbers, who's the director 90 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 2: of Beele Juice, and we're talking about reviewers, and he 91 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 2: reminded me of that. There's a great Teddy Roosevelt quote. 92 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 2: I don't know if you know it. It's the one 93 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 2: about one about the man that's in the arena with 94 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 2: you know, I should dig it out and actually quote it, 95 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 2: because I'm going to paraphrase it terribly and everyone will 96 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 2: hate me. But but you know, like there is something 97 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 2: that people who make things know, which is that it 98 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 2: is really hard to make stuff. It is really hard 99 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:55,839 Speaker 2: to offer it up for judgment. It is hard to 100 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 2: get things right. We don't always get things right, but 101 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 2: everybody works very very hard to put their best foot 102 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 2: forward creatively. And what happens when you get criticized sometimes 103 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 2: is it can feel like the critical response comes from 104 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 2: a kind of a really sort of some of it 105 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 2: that comes from quite a heartless, thoughtless place, and that 106 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 2: is hard stuff to do to take someone that has 107 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 2: a has a a smart, critical, considered approach to your work, 108 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 2: but fucking hates it is much easier to take than 109 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 2: somebody that is like, what what the fuck with these people? 110 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 2: Thinking they're idiots? You know what I mean? And then 111 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 2: they don't they don't actually review the show because nobody 112 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 2: sets out to make something bad. Everybody puts multiple years 113 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 2: for mostly very little remuneration into their work and by 114 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:02,039 Speaker 2: the time, you know, critic danes to put his or 115 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 2: her ass in a seat for what two and a 116 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,799 Speaker 2: half hours with interval, and then go home and spend 117 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 2: let's be generous, maybe an hour writing a review. It's 118 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 2: very a little part of their life, very small part 119 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 2: of their life when you consider the amount of times 120 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 2: gone into it. But I think if you don't make stuff, 121 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 2: you don't know. And we were saying that, we think 122 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 2: the critics should all have to make something. Every one 123 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 2: of them should make something and offer it up, whether 124 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 2: it's writing a book or because I've never you know, 125 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 2: and this is not you know, there's a great maximus. 126 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 2: There's never you know, never pick a fight with someone 127 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 2: who buys ink by the barrel, and that's a you 128 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 2: cannot win against critics. You can't. You know, like some 129 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 2: writers get really incensed about a bad review and they 130 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 2: write the paper and this is disgraceful, and you know 131 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 2: this person's an idiots and they don't know what the 132 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 2: hell they're talking about. But you cannot win that, and 133 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 2: it makes you look bad. You really, really, I really 134 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 2: think you just have to go this is none of 135 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 2: my business. This review. They can write they want, and 136 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 2: you've got to get on with the with the with 137 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 2: the with the job at hand, which is just making stuff. 138 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 2: But at the same time it is and it is 139 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 2: incredibly frustrating when you know that there's a sort of 140 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 2: a lacker, there's a snark and a lack of respect 141 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 2: for makers. And I have infinite respect for anyone that 142 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 2: makes anything and offers it up for judgment. It might 143 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 2: not be my cup of tea, but I think if 144 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 2: I'm being paid to analyze it in a critical way, 145 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 2: you bet you're asked. I think that I would have 146 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 2: to do my homework. What else has this person written, 147 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 2: What are they writing about, what are they trying to say? 148 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 2: Why does it work? Why does it not work? You know, 149 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 2: inside the context of who we are today and the 150 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 2: world that we live, and I think that every piece 151 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 2: that you're paid to go and watch deserves that much respect. 152 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 2: And unfortunately that doesn't that doesn't always happen. Sometimes it does, 153 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 2: and a great reviewer is always great, someone that understands 154 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 2: your work. But the best of times, it's like it's 155 00:08:57,600 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 2: just something that's had to fucking deal with, and it's like, 156 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 2: if if it goes your way, then good. You pull 157 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 2: out a quote, you put it on the post that 158 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 2: you try to sell it. If it doesn't go your way, 159 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 2: you ignore it and you move on. It's a tool 160 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 2: that either works for you or doesn't work for you. 161 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 2: But you can't write for reviewers. 162 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: Hey there, it's Amantha here again. I hope you got 163 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:21,079 Speaker 1: some useful insights from this extract. For me, there were 164 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: a couple of things that really stood out. First, I 165 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 1: think it's great to be reminded that it's actually a 166 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: good thing to be polarizing, which Eddie definitely sets out 167 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 1: to be in his work. I know that for me, 168 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: I've had some articles published and also books where I've 169 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: received some pretty harsh feedback that at the time felt 170 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: pretty awful. But you know, I try to remind myself that, hey, 171 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 1: it's good to be polarizing. Secondly, while I haven't had 172 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: a boss for over a decade since starting Inventium, I 173 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: think it's such good advice for those with a boss 174 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: in terms of getting feedback from your boss about stuff 175 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: that he or she doesn't actually have direct experience with. 176 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: It's like reviewers criticizing art when they've never actually made 177 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: art themselves. So I think that there's a great opportunity 178 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: to educate your boss a bit on what goes on 179 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 1: in your world and what goes towards doing your job 180 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,079 Speaker 1: well to help build what can sometimes be much needed 181 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: empathy with your boss. And finally, I like that Eddie 182 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: remembered that ultimately it's all about what the audience thinks, 183 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: so that's a great thing to remember too. What matters 184 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 1: most is feedback from your audience, which in your world 185 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: might be your customer, or it might even be fellow 186 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: employees or someone else perhaps, And while your boss might 187 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 1: seem like your customer, they're not. Actually the reason why 188 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: you do your job. Your job is to serve the customer, 189 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: as opposed to managing upwards, so to speak. So that 190 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: is it for today. If you like this extract, you 191 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 1: might want to go back and listen to the whole 192 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: interview with Eddie Perfect. And also, if you liked this episode, 193 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 1: you might want to share it with your friends or 194 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 1: workmates or bus even do you think could you know, 195 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: perhaps benefit from this show. So that is it for 196 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: today and I will see you next time.