1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:04,359 Speaker 1: Already and this is the Daily h This is the Dahlias. 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 2: Oh, now it makes sense. Good morning, and welcome to 3 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:19,439 Speaker 2: the Daily OS. It's Monday, the fifteenth of September. I'm 4 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 2: Emma Gillespie. 5 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 3: I'm Lucy Tassel. 6 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 2: Last week, graphic footage from the assassination of Charlie Kirk 7 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 2: went viral online. The thirty one year old conservative political 8 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 2: activist was speaking at an outdoor event at Utah Valley 9 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 2: University when he was shot in front of thousands of onlookers. 10 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 2: Within moments, Distressing close up videos of the incident began 11 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 2: circulating widely, flooding social media feeds. 12 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 3: Whether they wanted to see it or not. Millions of 13 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 3: people around the world have now viewed this footage. The 14 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 3: incident has led to renewed discussions about social media platform's 15 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 3: duty of care and the lasting impacts of graphic violence 16 00:00:58,200 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 3: on young people. 17 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 2: Kurer and researcher in psychology at the University of the 18 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 2: Sunshine Coast, doctor Rachel Scharman, has researched this field extensively. 19 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 2: She joins us in today's Deep Dive to discuss the 20 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 2: fallout of the Charlie Kirk assassination and the psychological impacts 21 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 2: of young people's exposure to violent content online. Doctor Rachel Scharman, 22 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:26,319 Speaker 2: Welcome to the podcast. Thank you, thank you for joining 23 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 2: us today. We are talking about this viral vision from 24 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 2: the Charlie Kirk assassination. This footage became ubiquitous on social 25 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 2: media platforms within minutes to hours of the incident. 26 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 4: As a child psychology. 27 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 2: Expert, what was your immediate reaction to this footage. 28 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 5: Look, fortunately I haven't seen the footage, and I've deliberately 29 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 5: not seen the footage. I heard it was quite gruesome, 30 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 5: and in fact, you know a number of people suggested 31 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 5: one should not see it. And I'm also not really 32 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 5: a big fan of, you know, supporting orncouraging this kind 33 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 5: of thing. So I've not seen it, but I've heard 34 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 5: it is quite disturbing. It's obviously footage of a man 35 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 5: being killed, and you know that in itself is disturbing enough, 36 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 5: but the fact that there's I hear you know, it's 37 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 5: somewhat gory, I suppose, and it's in its content. So yeah, 38 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 5: this gets around really quick. And look, this has probably 39 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 5: been a problem for adolescents and teenagers in particular for 40 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 5: about the last ten years or so. And it's really 41 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 5: not going away. If anything, it seems to be getting worse. 42 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 5: This kind of footage appears to be coming up very 43 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 5: very quickly without any real attempts to shut it down, 44 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 5: and even if it is shut down, it's just leaked 45 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 5: out somewhere else, you know, again, very very quickly. So 46 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 5: I think, unless and until we have I don't really 47 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 5: don't know what the answer is from a technological point 48 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 5: of view, but better ways of trying to, you know, 49 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 5: shut this stuff down. We're going to have to get 50 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 5: used to the fact that it exists. When these sorts 51 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 5: of things happen. 52 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 2: What are the kind of impacts you know, what is 53 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 2: happening in the brain of a young person or a 54 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 2: child when they happen upon this footage Because we know, 55 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 2: you know, anecdotally and from the research, that often young 56 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 2: people are encountering violent, traumatizing, distressing content without even necessarily 57 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 2: looking for it. 58 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,359 Speaker 4: What is that doing to young people? Yeah, look, you're 59 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 4: absolutely right. 60 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 5: In fact, a lot of young people report that this 61 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 5: stuff gets sent to them from friends, so they actually 62 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 5: think it's I don't know, some sort of TikTok video 63 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 5: about dancing cats or something, and open it up and 64 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 5: get exposed to this most unexpectedly and without their consent. 65 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 5: So there's a few different things if we split the 66 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 5: ages up a little bit. So if we talk about preteens, 67 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 5: so prior to the age of twelve, and look, I 68 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 5: would certainly hope you know, no one out there gets 69 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 5: access to this footage prior to that age. But you know, 70 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 5: this is the world we live in. It's often just 71 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 5: downright scary. They really haven't developed the brain capacity to 72 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 5: put things into perspective, to understand that this is a 73 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 5: rare and unusual risk, that it's not immediate, it's not 74 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 5: really pertinent to them. They really don't get that, so 75 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 5: they tend to react with fear and anxiety, and they 76 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 5: might even do things like sort of start running around 77 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 5: the house, locking up doors, you know, not wanting to 78 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 5: go shopping, all sorts of things that parents find quite confusing. 79 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 5: So that very young brain really does need to be 80 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 5: quite protected from this stuff. The kids just don't have 81 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:22,119 Speaker 5: the hardware to sort of deal with this at all. 82 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 5: The older brain's a bit interesting. So there has been 83 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 5: some quite fascinating research looking at adolescents. So if we 84 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,679 Speaker 5: go now, say thirteen and above and what's been found. 85 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 5: So in that context that we know that this typically happens. 86 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 5: So some a friend sends this on to you. Yeah, 87 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 5: the difference sometimes is the context in which that friend 88 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 5: sent that to you. So if it's with a message 89 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 5: like Haha, look at this, isn't that funny? Believe it 90 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:48,359 Speaker 5: or not, teenagers will kind of respond to that and go, 91 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 5: oh yeah, what a joke and on send it. Whereas 92 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 5: if someone sends it and says, oh my god, isn't 93 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 5: this terrible? Same sort of thing. So we refer to 94 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 5: this in psychology as social contagion, sort of little ripple 95 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 5: effect of how people are responding to these. Teenagers in 96 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 5: particular will typically mirror that and just copy it. So 97 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 5: again I suppose they're you know, growing or emerging critical thinking, 98 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 5: not quite there yet. And also the ability to sort 99 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 5: of say to a peer or a peer group, hey 100 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 5: that's not on or that's terrible, I disagree with you 101 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 5: is really low. 102 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 4: You know, teenagers really want to fit in. 103 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 5: We all know that, so they tend to mirror and copy, 104 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 5: and hence we get this social contagion effect. So it 105 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 5: kind of depends on how that footage was received and 106 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 5: in what context in terms of how that individual teenager 107 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 5: will respond to it. 108 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:40,479 Speaker 2: Let's say a teenager does receive a link to the 109 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 2: footage from a friend who is playing it down or 110 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 2: maybe describes it as funny. As you've given that example there, 111 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 2: and a young person watches that and feels distressed. What 112 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 2: can happen to them in the kind of hours, days, 113 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 2: or weeks following that, you know, this kind of push 114 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 2: and pull between wanting to fit in, but you know, 115 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 2: maybe they're playing this on repeat. 116 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:06,919 Speaker 4: Look, it's a really good question. 117 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:10,280 Speaker 5: So what we have found is that, or what research 118 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 5: has found in the past, is that this sort of 119 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 5: thing does lead to an overall desensitization of these types 120 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 5: of images and violence. And again, a teenager's capacity to 121 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 5: honestly separate sort of real life from what they're seeing 122 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 5: on TV and all the rest of it is still developing. 123 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:30,280 Speaker 4: It's still emerging. 124 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 5: And certainly, you know, you can see from some of 125 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,279 Speaker 5: the comments about this particular death, it's like there's an 126 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 5: actual person here. Have we all forgotten that? 127 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 4: Can we just take a step back. 128 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,039 Speaker 5: You know, regardless of what you thought about him and 129 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 5: all the rest of it, And you know, but yeah, 130 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 5: that sort of desensitization can unfortunately lead to dehumanization that 131 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 5: is not great. But the group you're then talking about 132 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 5: is really the group who are sitting with that discontent, 133 00:06:57,440 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 5: you know, that cognitive dissonance like everyone thinks this is 134 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 5: but I don't. I think this is quite awful and 135 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 5: I can't believe everyone you know is laughing about that. 136 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 4: And I think, you know, this is where parents, teachers, etc. 137 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 4: Have a real role. 138 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 5: And it's not about telling teens how to think. That's 139 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 5: the last thing we want to do. It is about 140 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 5: engaging their critical thinking structures. So things like, Okay, why 141 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 5: is this funny? Why do you think it's funny? Do 142 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 5: you think it's okay for these sorts of things to happen? 143 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 5: What do you think is going on here? How do 144 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 5: you think his family feels? What do you think the 145 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 5: community feels about this? And as teenagers start to mull 146 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 5: that over, getting them to practice that and sort of hey, 147 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 5: let's look at this from a range of different angles, 148 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 5: let's look at everyone's viewpoint on this. That is a 149 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 5: real help, I think in helping teenagers to move forward 150 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 5: through some of this stuff and to make them feel 151 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 5: okay about the fact that maybe they have a feeling 152 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 5: or an opinion that is different to their peer group. 153 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 4: About this in. 154 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 2: Terms of this kind of generation of young people who 155 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 2: are being exposed to distressing content, who are then at 156 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 2: risk of that desensitization ultimately dehumanization. From your perspective as 157 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 2: an expert in the field of psychology, what are the 158 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 2: lasting effects on our society more broadly when we're considering. 159 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 5: That, Yeah, so there is this lack of empathy for 160 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 5: just your fellow man. And like I said, that dehumanization 161 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 5: when people sort of get cast as a thing rather 162 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 5: than a person. Oh, this was a conservative, or that 163 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 5: person was a snowflake, or that person was you know, 164 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 5: whatever names or labels you know, people chuck around these days. 165 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 5: Once you start doing that, you're not seeing that person 166 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 5: as an individual human being with the same human. 167 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 4: Rights as everyone else. So that is one of the effects. 168 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 5: We do know from previous research that the impact of 169 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 5: that sort of desensitization, particularly as it pertains to violence, 170 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 5: does seem to relate to aggression in boys in particular. 171 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:58,719 Speaker 5: We don't tend to see it in girls as much 172 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,839 Speaker 5: in the Western community, you know, So that's America, Europe, UK, 173 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 5: Australia that sort of thing. 174 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 4: So you know, there are. 175 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 5: Some minor blips there where we can see increases in aggression, 176 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 5: you know, and increases in sort of sledging and joking 177 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 5: and all that sort of stuff. And look, teenagers do that, 178 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 5: so we do have to cut them a bit of slack. 179 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:21,079 Speaker 5: But look, there is research to suggest that that desensitization, 180 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 5: dehumanization does spill over, and particularly when it comes to 181 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 5: aggression in males. 182 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 2: We've touched on the ramifications of these videos being shared 183 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 2: or coming across the news feed of someone without their 184 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:36,439 Speaker 2: consent or them. 185 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:37,079 Speaker 4: Looking for it. 186 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 2: What about the kind of innate curiosity that we have. 187 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 2: I mean, as adults, you and I can make a 188 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 2: decision that we don't want to seek this footage out, 189 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 2: but that's not the case necessarily in classrooms or at 190 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 2: universities with you know, younger people, children, teens and adolescents. 191 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 4: Can you explain a little bit about that curiosity? 192 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 2: Is that a natural desire to kind of want to 193 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 2: see this? 194 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 4: Look it is? 195 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 5: And I mean, you know, if we go past the 196 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 5: car crash, there's very few people who don't look, you know, 197 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,439 Speaker 5: let's be honest, So that that is an absolutely natural 198 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,839 Speaker 5: human thing, and teenagers young adults in particular, they are 199 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 5: curious cats, They are curious creatures, and you know, it's 200 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 5: one of those things they don't know what they don't know, 201 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 5: you know, they don't know what they're about to see 202 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 5: might actually distress them more than they realize and might 203 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 5: actually leave a mark. 204 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 4: You know. 205 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 5: I'm sure we've all had things we wish we could 206 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 5: unsee as we've gotten older in life. So that sort 207 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 5: of young teenage, young adult curiosity absolutely is very natural 208 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 5: and look, to be fair, I think we just have 209 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 5: to get used to the idea that this sort of 210 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 5: stuff is going to become more and more easily accessible. 211 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 5: I just I'm just not aware of how it's going 212 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 5: to get shut down easily in society. 213 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, on that sort of I suppose unavoidable exposure that 214 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 2: is there online, given that you know at the time 215 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 2: of record, if you go on Instagram and type Charlie Kirk, 216 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 2: the first thing that you will see is close up 217 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 2: vision of this man's death. Essentially, what do you want 218 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 2: social media platforms to understand from a psychology perspective about 219 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 2: the imperative for this footage to be moderated? 220 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 5: I mean, It's interesting, isn't If we go back in time. 221 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 5: Let's be way back before social media even existed. You know, 222 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 5: if you wanted to watch a film like Jaws, where 223 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 5: a shark of pretended mechanical shark is eating someone, it 224 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 5: had to be on at eight thirty at night, you know, 225 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:37,680 Speaker 5: and onwards there were really quite strong rules about what 226 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 5: could be published and presented to people. So we've gone 227 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 5: from having very strong rules to absolutely nothing at all. 228 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 5: What would I say to social media platforms. I don't 229 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 5: think they care. I think, unfortunately the only thing that 230 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 5: would work is very very strict regulation in one way 231 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 5: or the other, and I'm sure they'll do their darndas 232 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 5: to find their way around it until someone comes crashing 233 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 5: down on top of them with a heap of rules 234 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 5: and laws and regulations. 235 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 4: I just can't see that stopping at all. 236 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 3: Well. 237 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 2: I mean, come December here in Australia, under sixteen year 238 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 2: olds will be banned from these platforms and won't be 239 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 2: able to see vision like this. You know, if Charlie 240 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 2: Kirk had been assassinated a few months down the line, 241 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 2: maybe we wouldn't be having this conversation. Do you think 242 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 2: that ban is going to work is going to help 243 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 2: young people in this space. 244 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 4: Now. 245 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 5: Look, I'll be up front here and so I have 246 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 5: a tremendous bias. 247 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 4: Yes I do. If it was up to me, i'd. 248 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 5: Ban it till eighteen, and i'd ban the sale of 249 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 5: smartphones as well. Look, you know, I'm not silly. I 250 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 5: have a smartphone, I work on a computer all day. 251 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 5: Of course, people need to be introduced to these things. 252 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,199 Speaker 5: But it's the same as alcohol as far as I'm concerned. 253 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 5: We don't give twelve year olds and sixteen year olds 254 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 5: hard spirits. We wait until we feel that their brain 255 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 5: is at least, you know, readyish enough to cope with that. 256 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 5: And I don't think social media is any different. In fact, 257 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,559 Speaker 5: a lot of the social media platforms are quite deliberately addictive. 258 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 5: As I said, I think unfortunately harsh regulation. If you 259 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 5: really want this stuff to stop, it's pretty much the 260 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:12,680 Speaker 5: only thing that's going to stop it, or even just 261 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 5: slow it down for. 262 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 4: The rest of us. 263 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 2: You know, this content will always be there. We will 264 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:22,680 Speaker 2: always be faced with these kind of ethical dilemmas about 265 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 2: to click or not to click, to watch or not 266 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 2: to watch. How do we balance you know, staying informed 267 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 2: in the world with protecting ourselves from traumatic content. 268 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a tricky one, isn't it. 269 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 5: So I mean, as I said, I think we've probably all, 270 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 5: once you get to a certain age, we've all seen 271 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 5: something we wish we could have unseen. And I think 272 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 5: it's good to remind yourself of that sometimes, Like, what 273 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 5: is the benefit or the advantage of me seeing this? Yes, 274 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 5: I'm curious, Oh look at that, what's happened over there? 275 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 5: But what is the advantage here? What's the advantage to me? 276 00:13:56,320 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 5: What's the advantage to society? What's the advantage to Charlie Kirkspam, Like, 277 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,199 Speaker 5: where's the benefit in this? So me just wanting to 278 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 5: satisfy a bit of sort of natural human curiosity doesn't 279 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 5: really outweigh all of those sorts of risks and problems 280 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 5: for the society. So, you know, if people just engage 281 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 5: their brain and stop and think just for a minute 282 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 5: before they click, I think that's the best way to go. 283 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 2: For adults, What are some of the signs that teachers parents, 284 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 2: you know, adults who have young people in their lives, 285 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 2: what are some of the signs they should be looking 286 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 2: out for. Given you know that this footage has been 287 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 2: widely viewed. Are there any kind of particular concern areas 288 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 2: or red flags? 289 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 4: Look? 290 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 5: Funnily enough, one of the big things for kids all 291 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 5: through the spectrum, be they younger or older, is imitation. 292 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 5: So kids, you know, pretending to shoot each other, kids 293 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 5: pretending to take a shot to the head, all sorts 294 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 5: of things like that. You could potentially expect that jokes 295 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 5: about it, all that kind of thing for the younger ones, 296 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 5: as I said, fear and anxiety, so suddenly not wanting 297 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 5: to go out suddenly, you know, right, and of certain 298 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 5: things particularly, you know, things that might have been evident 299 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 5: in the footage. So I mean, I suppose most kids 300 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 5: don't go to a university campus, but you know, that 301 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 5: kind of thing, and a disproportionate fear, you know, like 302 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 5: why you're worried about this and coming out of nowhere. 303 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 4: So that's a big sign for young kids. 304 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 5: You know, for older kids, it is more likely to 305 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 5: be as I say, sort of imitation, jokey stuff, perhaps 306 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 5: making jokes about people dying, being a bit more morbid, 307 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 5: talking about death, talking about shootings a lot more. It's 308 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 5: not necessarily a red flag. It's telling you that the 309 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 5: teenager is processing that information, whether or not they're processing 310 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 5: it in a sort of a more adaptive way or 311 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 5: a maladaptive way, will sort of show up later. 312 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 4: I think so. 313 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 5: In the first instance, I think parents can just expect 314 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 5: to hear a lot about it as well as students are. 315 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 4: Teacher. 316 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 5: Sorry, but look, in terms of red flags, it's probably 317 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 5: that rise in anxiety and possibly even in some boys 318 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 5: in particular, a rise in aggressions telling you that something's 319 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 5: been processed poorly. 320 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 2: And for the rest of us, how do we know 321 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 2: if we are having a quote unquote normal or expected 322 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 2: response to seeing this kind of distressing vision, or maybe 323 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 2: when it's crossed a line into being something more serious 324 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 2: that might require a bit more help. 325 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 5: Look, people might see this or hear about it and 326 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 5: sort of mull over it and think about it and 327 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 5: all the rest of it. But at some point you 328 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 5: should move on. If people are starting to have nightmares 329 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 5: about it, if they are starting to get anxious, and look, 330 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 5: I have heard of adults doing this sort of thing like, 331 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 5: you know, I'm not going to go out, I'm not 332 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 5: going to go shopping, I'm not going to you know, 333 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 5: I'm not going to do this that and the other 334 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 5: so similar almost to the younger child reaction, which is interesting. 335 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 4: So often we. 336 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 5: See if adults are sitting out there and let's say 337 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 5: they're at a five out of ten anxiety, you know, 338 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 5: they're actually coping pretty well, but they do have a 339 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 5: bit of bubbling anxiety away. Something like this can trigger it, 340 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 5: and it can kind of trip it up to say 341 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 5: an eight out of ten. Yeah, and so again that's 342 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 5: sudden spike in anxiety, particularly about things like in Australia 343 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 5: which we don't, thank goodness, really need to worry about, 344 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 5: like gun control or being out in public. If people 345 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:12,120 Speaker 5: start worrying about that and taking again these disproportionate sort 346 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 5: of precautions and reactionary behavior, that's a bit of a 347 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 5: sign that they probably need to go and get their 348 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 5: anxiety checked and managed a bit better. 349 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,199 Speaker 2: Doctor Rachel Charman, fascinating to hear your thoughts. Thank you 350 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 2: so so much for joining us on today's podcast. 351 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 3: Thank you, ever, that's all for today's Deep Dive. A 352 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 3: big thanks to doctor Rachel Shalman for joining us for 353 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 3: that episode. If it's raised any concerns for you, twenty 354 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 3: four to seven crisis support is available through Lifeline at 355 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 3: thirteen eleven fourteen. The Kids' Helpline offers free counseling services 356 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,360 Speaker 3: for children, teens and young people on one eight hundred, 357 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 3: five point fifty one eight hundred. We'll be back this 358 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 3: afternoon with your headlines. Until then, have a great day. 359 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Adunda 360 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: Bungelung Calcottin woman from Gadigol Country. The Daily oz acknowledges 361 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 362 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:09,120 Speaker 1: Gadigol people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torrestrate 363 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 1: island and nations. We pay our respects to the first 364 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:14,640 Speaker 1: peoples of these countries, both past and present.