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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just on answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, we want to keep devices out of bedrooms in

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Speaker 2: open areas where you can sort of wander past and

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Speaker 2: look over their shoulder and go, oh, what are you

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Speaker 2: doing there, and actually be part of their online world.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 2: Gooday, it's Justin and Kylie. We're the parents of six kids.

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Speaker 2: Where the founders of Happy Families dot com dot you

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Speaker 2: and where the hosts of this podcast, the Happy Families

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Speaker 2: Podcast around I only forgot who we were and what

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Speaker 2: we were doing for a second. This is Mental Health

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Speaker 2: Awareness Month. Over the last week or so, we've been

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Speaker 2: having big conversations about some really hard topics, and today

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Speaker 2: maybe a slightly surprising conversation about digital self harm. When

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Speaker 2: we're talking about our children's well being and their mental health,

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Speaker 2: something that we don't hear often about is what's going on online,

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Speaker 2: specifically in terms of what kids might be doing to themselves.

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Speaker 2: So today that's our topic, digital self harm.

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Speaker 3: There was an article recently published in the Sydney Morning Herald.

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Speaker 2: Yeah will link to that in the show notes.

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Speaker 3: When I first read it, I was just completely bewildered.

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Speaker 3: I couldn't imagine why anybody would actually start writing bad

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Speaker 3: things anonymously about themselves on a public forum.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and we should just be really clear, that's what

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Speaker 2: digital self harm is.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So, self harm is when you hurt yourself. Digital self

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Speaker 2: harm is when you hurt yourself, but you do it online.

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Speaker 2: So essentially, you cyberble yourself, you set up anonymous accounts,

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Speaker 2: you say horrible things on your own platform about yourself.

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Speaker 2: That's the idea of digital self harm.

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Speaker 3: But then as I continue to read it, it occurred

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Speaker 3: to me that there are many people out there who

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Speaker 3: actually do this, like verbally in front of their friends.

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Speaker 3: We put ourselves down in an effort to have somebody

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Speaker 3: say something nice back to us and to prove us wrong.

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Speaker 3: And so it kind of it makes sense. It's just

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Speaker 3: it's a whole nother generation of.

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Speaker 2: It's moved online. So a recent study from the United

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Speaker 2: States suggests that somewhere between five and nine percent, which

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Speaker 2: is actually surprisingly high, of American teenagers have trolled themselves,

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Speaker 2: like posting mean comments about themselves on their own accounts.

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Speaker 2: But when you look at the level of depression that

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Speaker 2: we see among our young people, our tweens and teens.

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Speaker 2: Five to nine percent is probably not actually that high.

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Speaker 2: That probably makes sense.

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Speaker 3: I'm curious if this kind of behavior would be linked

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Speaker 3: to any kind of mental illness or whether or not

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Speaker 3: this is just a teenage trend yees.

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Speaker 2: So, I mean, outside of depression, that's probably the main

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Speaker 2: thing that we're dealing with here. We've got a kid

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Speaker 2: who's not feeling good about themselves. We spoke obviously about

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Speaker 2: depression yesterday for about fifteen to twenty minutes and really

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Speaker 2: went into that quite deeply. I did see in one

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Speaker 2: of the articles that I read in twenty thirteen there

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Speaker 2: was quite a high profile case of digital self harm.

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Speaker 2: This is back when asked dot fm. ASKfm was the

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Speaker 2: big social media site that everyone was losing the plot about.

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Speaker 2: For those who missed the memo, ASKfm was a site

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Speaker 2: where people would jump on and say tell me the truth,

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Speaker 2: what do you think about me? And people would anonymously

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Speaker 2: post whatever they wanted about this person, and it was

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Speaker 2: it was troll central.

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Speaker 3: Wasn't that something that's just been recently done?

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Speaker 2: Well, there's new platforms coming up all the time where

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Speaker 2: these kinds of activities occurred, but ASKfm was the first

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Speaker 2: big one and it was directly implicated with the death

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Speaker 2: of a fourteen year old girl. She died by suicide.

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Speaker 2: Some of the comments that were made were absolutely horrendous,

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Speaker 2: but after an inquiry, it emerged that ninety eight percent

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Speaker 2: of the messages, the cyberbullying messages at her were written

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Speaker 2: by her. Oh my god, so she was getting on

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Speaker 2: there and saying, tell me the truth, be honest with me,

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Speaker 2: the hashtag TBH to be honest, let me know what

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Speaker 2: you really think? Am I pretty? Or am I this?

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Speaker 2: Or am I That ninety eight percent of the messages

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Speaker 2: that were directed at her were written by her, which

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Speaker 2: highlights a couple of things. Number One, people actually didn't

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Speaker 2: bully her online. So she was so isolated and so lonely.

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Speaker 2: She lacks so much in terms of relationship that nobody

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Speaker 2: was even following her online and bullying her. She was

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Speaker 2: just doing it to herself. She felt that that terribly lonely.

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Speaker 2: We know though that and this comes from a US

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Speaker 2: study published in Child and Adolescent Mental Health just this

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Speaker 2: July found that young people who engaged in digital self

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Speaker 2: harm or cyber self bullying were more likely to experience

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Speaker 2: suicidal thoughts, so it really is a concern. We also

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Speaker 2: know that younger kids are more likely to do it

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Speaker 2: to themselves than older kids. So the average age where

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Speaker 2: this really starts to ramp up is somewhere around thirteen

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Speaker 2: or fourteen. By the time kids are seventeen eighteen, they

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Speaker 2: don't seem to be doing it to themselves so much.

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Speaker 2: So it's related to maturity and experience, and it's the

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Speaker 2: time where kids are really online reaching desperate for some

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Speaker 2: kind of recognition.

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Speaker 3: So this is a really tricky because I want to

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Speaker 3: ask you, how do we know if our kids are

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Speaker 3: engaging in this kind of behavior? Yeah, yeah, because we're

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Speaker 3: talking about personal cyberbullying. Yes, they're not being targeted by

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Speaker 3: somebody else. This is actually of their own fruition. So

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Speaker 3: I don't actually know what I'm supposed to ask here,

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Speaker 3: because how do we protect our kids from this kind

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Speaker 3: of behavior?

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Speaker 2: So there's a couple of different ways that we can

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Speaker 2: take it. The first thing that I would say is

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Speaker 2: that if your child is being cyberbullied online and it

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Speaker 2: does happen, we see it happening all the time, don't

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Speaker 2: assume that it's them doing it to themselves. I don't

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Speaker 2: think that that's going to be helpful, but look, I mean,

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Speaker 2: have listened to yesterday's podcast and consider what depression looks

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Speaker 2: like and whether your child is socially isolated, and at

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Speaker 2: least be mindful that the strategies we talked about in

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Speaker 2: yesterday's podcasts can be helpful for your child's well being.

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Speaker 2: Rather than assuming though that your child is doing this

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Speaker 2: to themselves, they're self harming themselves or cyberbullying themselves in

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Speaker 2: a digital sphere, I think what we want to do

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Speaker 2: is just be mindful of the signs that your child

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Speaker 2: could be a target of cyber bullying, whether it's from

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Speaker 2: themselves or from somebody else. So the e Safety Commissioner

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Speaker 2: has on their website five signs that suggest that a

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Speaker 2: child is the target of cyber bullying, and I think

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Speaker 2: that they're strong enough that rather than making up my

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Speaker 2: own are these ones are really good? First off, they

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Speaker 2: appear sad, lonely, angry, worried, or upset more than usual.

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Speaker 2: That makes sense, you've got that mood issue. Secondly, unexpected

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Speaker 2: changes in friendship. Groups are not wanting to be around people,

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Speaker 2: even friends, So once that social cohesion drops.

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Speaker 3: Off, an absolutely disconnect because we.

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Speaker 2: Know that what happens offline is reflected online, amplified, accelerated,

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Speaker 2: blown up, it gets bigger. So if I'm doing really

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Speaker 2: badly offline, I'm going to do pretty badly online as well.

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Speaker 2: They're a mirror of one another. It's just that the

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Speaker 2: online world never leaves you alone. So if there are

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Speaker 2: problems in friendship groups, if they are unexpected changes there,

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Speaker 2: or if your child has suddenly stepped into this socially

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Speaker 2: isolated scenario where the friendship group has dissinto graded, or

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Speaker 2: maybe they're just not doing well with friends full stop,

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Speaker 2: then that could suggest that the problems that you're seeing

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Speaker 2: are related to some cyber building. Maybe you see a

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Speaker 2: child become more withdrawn or anxious, there may be changes

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Speaker 2: in sleep patterns, or they're absolutely secret about their mobile

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Speaker 2: phone news, what they're doing online. There are the signs

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Speaker 2: that a child could be the target of cyber building.

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Speaker 3: So I want to kind of just take a little

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Speaker 3: bit of a tangent here. If your child has had

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Speaker 3: a massive shift in their social relationships, yes, when as

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Speaker 3: a parent do you step in? And should you step in?

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah you should, but you don't step in to

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Speaker 2: fix it, you step into support and then to develop

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Speaker 2: a plan. That's really what we're trying to do here.

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Speaker 2: So when we see that, just like we talked about

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Speaker 2: in yesterday's podcast, when we see that things aren't right,

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Speaker 2: our job is to sit down and say why things

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Speaker 2: are really hard?

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Speaker 1: Right now?

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Speaker 2: That's part of being a human. I'm here, give me

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Speaker 2: a hug, or what do you think we can do?

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Speaker 2: How can we move forward? And we've done this with

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Speaker 2: our own children as they've gone through their own crisis,

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Speaker 2: including some mental health challenges. We sit down with the

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Speaker 2: kids and we say this is really tough, isn't it?

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Speaker 2: So is this how you want to stay? Is there

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Speaker 2: anything that you would like to see different? If so,

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Speaker 2: let's work on a plan together. What are the things

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Speaker 2: that we know can help? And so then we put

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Speaker 2: together this plan and we say, well, we're here to

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Speaker 2: support you, so let's do it together. Let's be involved

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Speaker 2: in going for bike rides or going for walks to

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Speaker 2: the beach, or doing these things that you like to do.

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Speaker 2: Let's do them together to help you to feel connected.

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Speaker 2: Or let's organize for you to get together with that

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Speaker 2: person because you get along well, or do you know

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Speaker 2: what I mean, that's what we do. We make the plan,

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Speaker 2: we get involved, I think from a cyber bullying point

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Speaker 2: of view. Though, once again, the U Safe to Commissioner

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Speaker 2: gives us some really good hints, tips and tricks to

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Speaker 2: guide our kids. They suggest that we use parental controls

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Speaker 2: in apps and devices so that we can monitor and

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Speaker 2: limit what our kids are doing online. Now, typically I'm

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Speaker 2: not a supporter of that idea, but when you've got

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Speaker 2: a child who's being bullied, or you've got a child

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Speaker 2: who's psychologically distressed, having an increased level of monitoring with

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Speaker 2: their awareness for their support, there's value in that because

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Speaker 2: we can say, hey, we need to make sure that

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Speaker 2: you do it okay. We love you no matter what,

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Speaker 2: we care about you no matter what, and this is

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Speaker 2: part of the process so that we can keep you safe.

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Speaker 2: The E Safety Commission also says to make sure you've

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Speaker 2: got appropriate limits around time and use, so the kids

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Speaker 2: aren't on their screens in the middle of the night,

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Speaker 2: and they're not on their screens incessantly following up on

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Speaker 2: who's saying what about them, where and when. We want

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Speaker 2: to keep devices in out out of bedrooms, in open

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Speaker 2: areas where you can sort of wander past and look

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Speaker 2: over their shoulder and go, oh, what are you doing there?

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Speaker 2: You need to have appropriate privacy restrictions so that strangers

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Speaker 2: aren't approaching them in their games and in their apps

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Speaker 2: and all that sort of thing, and actually be part

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Speaker 2: of their online world. They're the tips from the U

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Speaker 2: Safet Commission, and I think they're pretty handy when it

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Speaker 2: comes to dealing with this issue of whether it's cyber

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Speaker 2: bullying or digital self harm. Some really useful ideas to

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Speaker 2: help with our children and their mental health.

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Speaker 3: Well as we delve into all things mental health, I'm

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Speaker 3: wondering what tomorrow's podcast has in store for everybody.

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Speaker 2: It's where we're chatting with a guy called David Woulds

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Speaker 2: He he a fellow who experienced post natal depression as

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Speaker 2: a dad. So we're going to talk about men's post

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Speaker 2: natal depression. We talk about how women experience it a lot,

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Speaker 2: and that's an important conversation, but something that's a little

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Speaker 2: bit different the idea of men experiencing post nail depression.

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Speaker 2: And then tomorrow night, I've got to mention it because

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Speaker 2: it's going to be awesome. Burnt Out a free webinar

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Speaker 2: thirty minutes it's fast, it's free, and it's for you

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Speaker 2: if you're feeling burned out over a time.

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Speaker 3: But you're about to say furious.

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Speaker 2: Well now I'm not going to make it furious, but

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Speaker 2: it's going to be a really fun webinar, only thirty minutes,

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Speaker 2: really short, free, all about how to overcome the burnout

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Speaker 2: that so many parents are experiencing. We've even got a

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Speaker 2: survey that you can do so that you can work

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Speaker 2: out how burned out you actually are and how that

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Speaker 2: compares to the rest of the population. Burnt out. A

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Speaker 2: free webinar that we're doing tomorrow night on the I

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Speaker 2: was going to say on the Happy Fmilies podcast, but

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Speaker 2: it's not. You've got to go to Happy families dot

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Speaker 2: com dot you or go to our Facebook page doctor

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Speaker 2: Justin Colson's Happy Families for all the information. Hey, that's

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Speaker 2: it for us today. The Happy Family Podcast is produced

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Speaker 2: by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our

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Speaker 2: executive producer, and for more information about all the stuff

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Speaker 2: we've talked about today, visit the show notes Orhappy Families

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Speaker 2: dot com Doday