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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers. Now. We love

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Speaker 1: answering your questions on the Happy Families podcasts. You can

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Speaker 1: email us podcasts at happy families dot com dot you.

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Speaker 1: That's podcasts with an asset, Happy families dot com dot AU.

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Speaker 1: Send us a voice memo, let us know what's on

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Speaker 1: your mind, what you're struggling with, what the challenges are

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Speaker 1: that your kids are presenting for you. We received this

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Speaker 1: one from Beth.

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Speaker 2: High Happy Families Team. I loved your recent episode on

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Speaker 2: pornography and pornproof of your children, and I'd already recently

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Speaker 2: just bought the Good Pictures Bad Pictures books, but i

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Speaker 2: hadn't read them yet because of some questions my son

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Speaker 2: has already had, and I'm not exactly sure how to

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Speaker 2: answer when it comes to things like art, like you know,

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Speaker 2: the Statue of David, like when we're traveling, or when

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Speaker 2: you see like photos of indigenous nations where the people

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Speaker 2: don't have any clothes on. I'm finding it hard to

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Speaker 2: put words around the difference between pornography and nakedness. And

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Speaker 2: also if my son's always asks like why why can

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Speaker 2: boys wear no T shirts and girls can't. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: I was wondering if you had any insights around those

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Speaker 2: two to make it more understandable. My son's early six

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Speaker 2: and he has come to me. He actually saw like

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Speaker 2: a game that had a baby wearing and happy, and

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Speaker 2: he came to me and he told me, my friends

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Speaker 2: watching someone that's naked, so he's he's onto it. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: I would love if you had any advice around the

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Speaker 2: kind of gray areas and about you know, out bodies

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Speaker 2: and limits with children. Thank you, Bye God.

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Speaker 1: This is such an important question. Our children are going

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Speaker 1: to be exposed to skin, to naked bodies, and we

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Speaker 1: know statistically that they're likely to be exposed to explicit content,

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Speaker 1: to pornography. Research tells us really clearly, Kylie, that kids

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Speaker 1: are going to ninety plus percent of our boys will

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Speaker 1: be exposed to pornography by the age of fifteen, about

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Speaker 1: seventy percent of girls. The numbers very depending on which

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Speaker 1: stats you're looking at, which studies you're looking at, and

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Speaker 1: the average age of exposure is still believed to be

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Speaker 1: somewhere around about eleven. Our children, if they've got smartphones,

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Speaker 1: are literally walking around with pornography in their pocket. And

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Speaker 1: you couple that with the fact, I mean, in Beth's case,

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Speaker 1: she's talking about a six year old, So we need

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Speaker 1: to talk about little kids here as well. But kids

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Speaker 1: are curious about bodies. Kids of all ages are curious

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Speaker 1: about bodies. That's why three and four and five and

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Speaker 1: six year olds play doctors and nurses, and it's why

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Speaker 1: teenagers look at pornography. So we need to talk about

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Speaker 1: I guess the difference between nudity, what's art for and

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Speaker 1: what is pornographic? Maybe we can start there.

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Speaker 3: So the definition I have for nudity is literally just

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Speaker 3: the state of being nude.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So not having any clothes on, that's that's nude.

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Speaker 1: And therefore we've got to be able to teach our

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Speaker 1: children that that's okay, yeah, not appropriate times, in appropriate place.

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Speaker 1: Normalizing nudity doesn't mean we should be doing more nudi

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Speaker 1: runs through the living room.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 3: But I also feel like sometimes, I mean, every family

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Speaker 3: is different, but sometimes we kind of act like it's

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Speaker 3: a really bad thing if we're seeing naked.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah, and it's not. And I'm guilty if

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Speaker 1: the kids walk into the bathroom when I'm in the

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Speaker 1: bathroom because unfortunately, sometimes they just don't knock, or they

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Speaker 1: look that mean.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes they never knock, and then they wonder why our

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Speaker 3: doors locked all the time.

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Speaker 1: But I mean, I feel like I have an obligation.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know if it's right or wrong.

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Speaker 1: I just I don't feel like with six daughters that

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Speaker 1: they're supposed to be walking in out of the bathroom

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Speaker 1: when I'm in there. But if nudity is not a problem,

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Speaker 1: then maybe I make a bigger deal of it than

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Speaker 1: I should. This is I mean, this is a really

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Speaker 1: interesting conversation question for me. Conversely, my parents were pretty

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Speaker 1: comfortable with nudity. They walked around way too nude, way

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Speaker 1: too much. Seriously, Mum and Dad, i'man far around. Maybe

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Speaker 1: that's why I am the way I am because I

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Speaker 1: remember now I'm remembering it again and I'm feeling a

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Speaker 1: little bit tormented. Anyway, So that's.

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Speaker 3: Nudity because my dad's My dad was the same when

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Speaker 3: we were growing up.

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Speaker 1: You want to three girls, Yeah, And when I.

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Speaker 3: Was growing up, my dad always made sure that he

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Speaker 3: was fully covered, and he would never let us walk

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Speaker 3: into the bathroom or.

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Speaker 1: The bedroom modesty while he was modesty.

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Speaker 3: While he was getting dressed or anything like that. On

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Speaker 3: the other hand, my mom, because we're a household of girls,

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Speaker 3: was a completely different story. And so she might be

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Speaker 3: having a bath or a shower and we'd walk in

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Speaker 3: and have a conversation with her.

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Speaker 1: And I think my mom was just like, I gave

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Speaker 1: birth to you, I can do whatever I want.

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Speaker 3: And I've kind of raised our kids similar, you know,

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Speaker 3: I don't I don't hide the fact that I'm naked,

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Speaker 3: and for the most part, I'm okay with that. It's

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Speaker 3: interesting because I know that now that we have a

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Speaker 3: married daughter and she'll come home and she'll be talking

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Speaker 3: to me and you'll walking and go, hang on a

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Speaker 3: sec your mum's naked.

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Speaker 1: Get out. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: And it's just it's become a very normalized. A naked

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Speaker 3: body is just that it's just naked.

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Speaker 1: Okay. So we've covered off nudity, but then there's nude

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Speaker 1: art that is there's artwork that says we are glorifying

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Speaker 1: the majesty, the miracle of the human body. So that

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Speaker 1: stuff like the statue of David. David, You've got the

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Speaker 1: Sistine Chapel, the roof of the Sistine Chapel, and there's

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Speaker 1: so much more that's out there. But I guess what

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Speaker 1: BET's question is, it gets a little bit blurry, It

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Speaker 1: gets a little bit hazy with artistic photography, especially maybe

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Speaker 1: some of the nerd photography, and maybe even some portraits

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Speaker 1: and things. I mean, every now and again you'll go

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Speaker 1: into somebody's house and there'll be a neude portrait, a

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Speaker 1: nude painting or artwork on the wall. And I know

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Speaker 1: with our kids when that's happened, they've looked at me

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Speaker 1: and they're like, Oh, there's boobies on the wall or

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Speaker 1: something like that, Like it's really shocked, and we have

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Speaker 1: elected not to have that kind of stuff on the wall.

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Speaker 1: But is it pornographic? What's the definition of pornography that

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Speaker 1: you found.

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Speaker 3: Pornography is any material containing explicit descriptions. So this could

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Speaker 3: be written material or displays of sexual organs or sexual

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Speaker 3: activity intended to stimulate sexual excitement. So the big word

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Speaker 3: in here for me is intense intention h But I

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Speaker 3: also think there needs to be I don't know if

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Speaker 3: CAVI it's the right word, but it also depends on

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Speaker 3: the viewers intent.

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Speaker 1: Right, what am I looking at it for?

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Speaker 4: That's right? And so for a six year old kid.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, probably not looking at it for anything except curiosity.

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Speaker 4: That's exactly right.

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Speaker 3: And I guess for me that's where it becomes gray,

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Speaker 3: because what is pornographic to one person may not be

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Speaker 3: pornographic to another person.

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Speaker 1: So this is kind of tricky as well though, because

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Speaker 1: we've got to have some sensibility about this, some reality

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Speaker 1: about this. I mean, Australia is a pretty liberal country.

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Speaker 1: We're pretty relaxed about things. I've had conversations with some

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Speaker 1: people who have said, you can't go down to the

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Speaker 1: beach these days. It's just a pornography scene on the beach, okay,

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Speaker 1: But most of Australia is pretty relaxed about what's going

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Speaker 1: on the beach. Not everybody obviously, but most of Australia

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Speaker 1: is reasonably because again, this is this culture where we're

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Speaker 1: uncomfortable with nudity, like in general, right and so and

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Speaker 1: culture that results for our girls, specifically around that is

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Speaker 1: so damaging tricky. I mean, if you go over to Europe,

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Speaker 1: very little more around this, right. I mean apparently I've been,

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Speaker 1: but apparently nude beaches and things and there is no

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Speaker 1: sexualized aspect to it. It's simply I love my body,

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Speaker 1: and I'm happy to have it all hanging out while

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Speaker 1: I'm at the beach because it's a natural place and

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Speaker 1: it's a natural state. It feels good. Then you look

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Speaker 1: at some Asian nations and they get upset if there

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Speaker 1: are swimsuits that are shown in a movie. On some aeroplanes,

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Speaker 1: they used to I don't know if they still do,

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Speaker 1: but on some UNEs aeroplanes they would actually edit swimsuit

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Speaker 1: scenes out of movies.

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Speaker 4: Well they have their public baths.

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Speaker 1: Well that's true, which is nudity.

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Speaker 3: Completely known with strangers.

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Speaker 1: Maybe maybe culture is important when it comes to this. Look,

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Speaker 1: I think we need to move on to something that's practical.

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Speaker 1: I want to go back to what you've said. There's

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Speaker 1: something about the intent of both the producer of the

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Speaker 1: material and the person viewing the material where you can

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Speaker 1: help to define a line between pornography and art. But

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Speaker 1: when you're talking to a six year old, probably not

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Speaker 1: going to go there. It's something it's a more nuanced

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Speaker 1: conversation for older kids.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think as an adult, having a clear

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Speaker 3: rationale and understanding yourself makes a huge difference in your

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Speaker 3: capacity that then have a conversation with a child and.

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Speaker 1: What you're comfortable with and what you're not willing to blacklist.

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Speaker 3: Your values are going to play a huge part in

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Speaker 3: where this conversation goes.

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Speaker 1: So I reckon if I was to look at it,

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Speaker 1: I would say this pornography is about intents, buying sexual feelings.

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Speaker 1: Art is designed to inspire and evoke and promote alle

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Speaker 1: I think that that's probably a way that you can

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Speaker 1: describe it, even to kids, when you're trying to talk

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Speaker 1: about the difference between artistic nudity and pornography.

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Speaker 3: I know when you and I got married we had

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Speaker 3: conversations about art in particular because number one, there is

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Speaker 3: a lot of it, but having grown up in a

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Speaker 3: very conservative home, we never had any kind of nudity

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Speaker 3: on display, or we didn't go to museums and things

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Speaker 3: like that. And for me personally, when I see beautiful art,

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Speaker 3: it actually just leaves me in awe of what my

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Speaker 3: body specifically does, like how it works, and just how

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Speaker 3: beautiful it is, how beautiful our human bodies are.

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Speaker 2: See.

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Speaker 1: I'm listening to what you're saying, and I'm feeling a

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Speaker 1: little bit confused because we were in Bali a few

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Speaker 1: years ago and they had a whole lot of wooden

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Speaker 1: carpetings and statues, totem poles, you know where I'm going

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Speaker 1: with this, right, And there were a whole lot of

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Speaker 1: penises on them, like big ones, little ones. They were there,

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Speaker 1: and they were right out there for everyone to see.

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Speaker 1: And the kids were like, what's that? What's that? We're like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: that's a penis. And then there's that whole thing. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's not porn octree right, that's ah, that's culture.

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Speaker 4: That's culture.

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Speaker 1: Maybe we don't even put that in art. Maybe I

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Speaker 1: need to get some Maybe we should bring some Balinese

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Speaker 1: totem poles into our backyard. That's all right, Let's talk

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Speaker 1: about what you're supposed to do when the kids stumble

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Speaker 1: across something explicit. Let's see if we can be helpful here,

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Speaker 1: because it's going to happen, and the way that we

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Speaker 1: respond to it really matters. I want to whiz through

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Speaker 1: this just in a couple of minutes, Kylie. I think

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Speaker 1: we can do it reasonably quickly and reasonably effectively. The

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Speaker 1: first thing that we need to do is make sure

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Speaker 1: that we stay calm and reassure them if kids encounter

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Speaker 1: anything that's explicit, or even if they're just stumbling upon

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Speaker 1: some artistic nudity. We need to let them know that

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Speaker 1: it's okay, and that they've come to us to talk

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Speaker 1: and they've done the right thing.

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Speaker 3: In a perfect world, we're actually going to pre arm

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Speaker 3: them before they've even seen anything.

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Speaker 1: Ideally, yeah, and will say if this ever happens, you

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Speaker 1: need to let me know.

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Speaker 3: Some years ago, I had this very experience with one

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Speaker 3: of our girls. She was looking on my computer. She

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Speaker 3: clicked on a link and up came a very explicit picture.

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Speaker 3: And I was in the room, but I wasn't aware that.

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Speaker 3: I wasn't aware of what she was specifically doing, and

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Speaker 3: in that very instant she literally slammed the screen down

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Speaker 3: and she looked at me and she said, Mum, I

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Speaker 3: just saw something. When I opened it up and I

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Speaker 3: saw what she'd seen, I couldn't believe. In that moment,

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Speaker 3: literally wanted to give myself a pat on the back.

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Speaker 3: I couldn't believe that those conversations we'd had actually had

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Speaker 3: gone in and that she acted.

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Speaker 4: So it was just instant.

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Speaker 1: How old was.

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Speaker 4: She She was seven?

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Speaker 1: So I think, going back to Beth's question, when we're

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Speaker 1: talking about young kids, they want absolutely to do the

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Speaker 1: right thing, and they know the difference. They know the difference.

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Speaker 1: They know pornography when they see it.

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Speaker 3: When I opened the computer up to see what she'd seen,

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Speaker 3: I realized it wasn't actually as scary as she'd make

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Speaker 3: as she felt it was, but it was definitely nudity.

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Speaker 3: And I said to her, I'm so grateful that you

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Speaker 3: told mummy, if this ever happens, you just literally you

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Speaker 3: did the exact thing that I needed to do, come

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Speaker 3: and tell me. And so when I asked her what

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Speaker 3: made her do it, she said, it just made me

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Speaker 3: feel funny insideret And so we were able to have

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Speaker 3: a conversation about what she was feeling and why she

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Speaker 3: was feeling that. And she knows that if she ever

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Speaker 3: has that experience, that she's not going to get in trouble,

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Speaker 3: that we can she can come to me, and that

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Speaker 3: I will help her to work through that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, And you've pretty much shared the other tips that

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Speaker 1: I had, So number one, stay calm and reassure them.

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Speaker 1: Number two, once you know what they've seen, exit out

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Speaker 1: of the content, close the content. Let them know that

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Speaker 1: that's the right thing to do, to shut it down

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Speaker 1: and to walk away from anything that makes them feel uncomfortable.

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Speaker 1: And again, pornography will make them feel uncomfortable. Art it

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Speaker 1: might leave them curious, but it will usually the discomfort

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Speaker 1: will be a completely different level of discomfort to what

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Speaker 1: pornography will make them feel. That's such a critical conversation piece.

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Speaker 1: The third thing that I was going to say is

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Speaker 1: seek adult help. Well, guess what. That's what happened in

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Speaker 1: the story. She went straight to you trusted adult, parent, teacher,

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Speaker 1: counselor someone. And kids need to know that they can

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Speaker 1: confide in you without getting in trouble and they'll get

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Speaker 1: the guidance support they need. Fourth thing, have a conversation

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Speaker 1: about boundaries and values. This is what you've done. And

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Speaker 1: then something that you didn't mention is just have a

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Speaker 1: conversation once they're emotionally okay about future media consumption. What

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Speaker 1: do they need to do to be safe, How they

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Speaker 1: can be protected online, how they can avoid harmful content

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Speaker 1: in the future. These are the steps that we go

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Speaker 1: through so that we can make sure that our children

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Speaker 1: are going to be safe because they will be exposed

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Speaker 1: to it, and what matters is who they've got to

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Speaker 1: process it with and how it can help them to

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Speaker 1: be healthy coming up the back.

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Speaker 3: One of the things that Beth shared was that her

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Speaker 3: son had been watching something on TV or on the

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Speaker 3: internet and it was a baby with a nappy, so

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Speaker 3: a naked baby ultimately, and it just got to be

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Speaker 3: thinking when I was in primary school, remember when we

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Speaker 3: were at that awkward stage and if anyone said anything

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Speaker 3: about a penis or boobs or the whole class.

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Speaker 1: I remember what we Nike sings. We used to sing

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Speaker 1: a song, was it combayats. There was a song about bosom.

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Speaker 1: I can't remember the word bosom came up. I mean,

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Speaker 1: bosom is just a beautiful word. It's an old fashioned

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Speaker 1: word for your your chest area. But oh my goodness,

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Speaker 1: when we were in primary school, were to crack up

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Speaker 1: when we spoke about the bosom of the anyway, and it.

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Speaker 3: Just made me think about just how important it is

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Speaker 3: that we talk about our body parts and we use

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Speaker 3: the right names and just make it a normal part

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Speaker 3: of our conversation with our children. It's not something that

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Speaker 3: you know, we kind of talk about in secret, but.

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Speaker 4: We don't talk to everyone about it.

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Speaker 3: This is a conversation that you have with mom and dad.

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Speaker 1: Beth. We really hope that we've answered your question thoroughly,

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Speaker 1: probably too thoroughly to be honest, but we hope that

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Speaker 1: this helps everyone with those tricky conversations about these tricky

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Speaker 1: topics with your kids. If you've got a question for us,

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Speaker 1: email us podcasts at happy families dot com dot you.

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Speaker 1: We love it when you send a voice memo right

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Speaker 1: out the question, read it into your phone, shoot it

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Speaker 1: through podcasts with an s Podcasts at happy families dot

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Speaker 1: com dot au. The Happy Family's podcast is produced by

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Speaker 1: Justin Rulan from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer.

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Speaker 1: For more information about making your family happy, to check

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Speaker 1: out our resources at happyfamilies dot com dot you, follow

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Speaker 1: us on all the social media's and sign up for

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Speaker 1: the waitlist for The Quest, the program where we take

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Speaker 1: you from misery to happiness in your family across an

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Speaker 1: extended period of time to make sure that everything's functioning

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Speaker 1: just the right way to help you gets to be

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Speaker 1: resilient and flourish. The Quest it's the new Happy Family's

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Speaker 1: parenting program, available now at happy families dot com dot

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Speaker 1: au