Speaker 1: It's in the news today, but it was actually on
Speaker 1: TV Reload the podcast last week Airline. Welcome TV Reload listeners.
Speaker 1: My name is Benjamin Norris and this is your podcast
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Speaker 1: in the production of this show as I possibly can.
Speaker 1: As you would know, I am obsessed with Australian Survivor
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three and I'm doing the exit interview chats
Speaker 1: for Heroes versus Villains. So this episode we will be
Speaker 1: talking to the latest booted castaways from week four. First up,
Speaker 1: I have Jordi Hansen, who no secret is one of
Speaker 1: my favorite contestants in both seasons that I've seen him in.
Speaker 1: Jordi re entered the Australian Survivor universe with the nickname
Speaker 1: firmly slated as the Joker, beautifully selected as a villain
Speaker 1: and one hundred percent a fan favorite for many Survivor enthusiasts.
Speaker 1: We will talk massive idle fails and whether you can
Speaker 1: ever play two sides successfully. We will discuss pieces to
Speaker 1: camera and if they actually mean anything to how your
Speaker 1: game is going. I really want to know if Simon
Speaker 1: can pop out from his current deputy Dewy Roll as
Speaker 1: the second in charge, wanting to be in charge. Jordi
Speaker 1: will also share who he thinks could win and if
Speaker 1: he would ever return to the Australian format again interesting.
Speaker 1: We then have Benjamin Law, who was another journalist to
Speaker 1: be booted from the show, but he's also known for
Speaker 1: his popular writing on TV shows, novels and theater. I
Speaker 1: actually think of him as an LGBTI activist and his
Speaker 1: name being attached to this series was very exciting for me.
Speaker 1: We will find out why he thinks people thought he
Speaker 1: was shifty. We will discuss making the fake idol and
Speaker 1: if he could have used his idle clue in a
Speaker 1: different advantage. Benjamin will also reveal why he probably won't
Speaker 1: return to the show and who most likely will be
Speaker 1: standing in his way. Plus, Benjamin and Jordie both will
Speaker 1: break down the fourth week of the series on Network ten,
Speaker 1: which will give you some pretty cool exclusives on what
Speaker 1: actually went down during their epic time on the show. However,
Speaker 1: let's bring Jordan in now. I'm sure you're going to
Speaker 1: enjoy his banter.
Speaker 2: Hi, Ben, it's disappointing. I can't see your face. You
Speaker 2: are always entertaining to be on a zoom win and
Speaker 2: you've got such a beautiful set. I feel like it's wasted.
Speaker 1: Now, it's so wasted. And I've just been sitting here
Speaker 1: waiting to have this chat with you, and now you
Speaker 1: can't see it all. Anyway, I digress and we have
Speaker 1: to get into this chat with Survivor.
Speaker 2: Go mate.
Speaker 1: Okay, So you came back to Australian Survivor and for
Speaker 1: audiences it was really clear that you had changed in
Speaker 1: some way. Did you feel like something or has something
Speaker 1: changed quite significantly for us to have noticed that different?
Speaker 2: That's an interesting question. Yeah, a couple of people who
Speaker 2: have said that to me, And you know, it seemed
Speaker 2: to me this whole, this constant thing saying, how is
Speaker 2: JORDI the voice of reason? I know I get it
Speaker 2: in some way, but also I feel like I was
Speaker 2: always like that. Perhaps it's situational. This time I was
Speaker 2: surrounded by a different situation and different people, people that
Speaker 2: perhaps weren't so level headed and were acting on emotions
Speaker 2: and egos rather than being strategic and having fun and
Speaker 2: so automatically you, I guess you become the voice of
Speaker 2: reason when you see through that sort of rubbish. I
Speaker 2: don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, I loved you the first time round, so
Speaker 1: there was no real change for me. It was more
Speaker 1: my reading of it online. And then I guess you
Speaker 1: did get to play the word of reason in a
Speaker 1: really hectic situation at one point. You know, I guess
Speaker 1: sometimes if everyone's behaving badly, some people can look better.
Speaker 2: But mate, I suppose so, Yeah, that was That was
Speaker 2: a funny night, A very disappointing night that tribal counsel in.
Speaker 2: You know, the way that they spoke to each other
Speaker 2: was uncalled for, and I sort of let them know
Speaker 2: that I.
Speaker 1: Suppose, Well, some people have said Simon isn't doing anything
Speaker 1: different from his first run on Austrain and Survivor, where
Speaker 1: you have grown and evolved. You know, what does that
Speaker 1: statement mean to you? I mean, do you think there's
Speaker 1: some truth in that that Simon hasn't really changed his
Speaker 1: gameplay compared to you. I'm maybe trying something different.
Speaker 2: Perhaps, Yeah, I guess so, Like I don't want to,
Speaker 2: you know, I don't want to speak too negatively about him.
Speaker 2: He does have a good heart. But I suppose him
Speaker 2: and George are in the same boat. You know, Simon
Speaker 2: didn't learn from not being the leader, and I took
Speaker 2: advantage of that. You know, everyone knows early days got
Speaker 2: the leader, and I saw he was more than willing
Speaker 2: to jump on that train. And then George as well,
Speaker 2: seems to forget that. In the end, your peers are
Speaker 2: the people that vote for you on the jury. You know,
Speaker 2: they vote for you to win. You've got to play
Speaker 2: a social game, and for some reason, George also didn't
Speaker 2: learn from that. Here's me, though, sitting here at home
Speaker 2: while they're still out there. You know, So having said that,
Speaker 2: my advice really means nothing.
Speaker 1: The moment that you said I'm going to play both sides.
Speaker 1: I was like, no, Jordy, like I and my partner's
Speaker 1: watching Survivor for the very first time, so like he's
Speaker 1: never watched it before, and he was like, why are
Speaker 1: you reacting like that? Why are you smacking your head?
Speaker 1: Why are you saying no to Jeordie? And I was like,
Speaker 1: I don't know whether or not players can play both
Speaker 1: sides successfully. What do you think? Do you think that
Speaker 1: making that decision at that point to try and play
Speaker 1: everyone was maybe a bad idea.
Speaker 2: Look, everyone's got their own opinions, so as a Survivor fan,
Speaker 2: you know there's there's a history of people not getting
Speaker 2: that right. But also if you do get it right,
Speaker 2: it plays off. You know, it pays off. And if
Speaker 2: it wasn't for that twist at that tribal council, it
Speaker 2: would have paid off. But you know, I don't have
Speaker 2: a crystal ball. I can't read the future. I did
Speaker 2: not predict that there would be an immunity challenge within
Speaker 2: a tribal you know, I didn't even know that was
Speaker 2: a thing that existed. So if it wasn't for that twist,
Speaker 2: the plan would have worked.
Speaker 1: Honestly, I'm going to get back into this in a
Speaker 1: little bit, but I just wanted to ask you, why
Speaker 1: do you think that this series has been so amazing?
Speaker 1: I mean, you should see what people are saying online
Speaker 1: and that the ground swell that's happening. I mean, it
Speaker 1: is the most enjoyable series I've ever seen. But why
Speaker 1: has it leveled up in your mind?
Speaker 2: That's a great question. I look for a lot of reasons,
Speaker 2: you know. I think that I'd like to think that
Speaker 2: the game players moving to a new level. I'd like
Speaker 2: to think that it's because of the players and the
Speaker 2: way that they've learned how the game works and they
Speaker 2: understand how the game should be played. I'd like to
Speaker 2: think that's the case, rather than production. I would like
Speaker 2: to think that's.
Speaker 1: The case last night. This is my thoughts on this.
Speaker 1: I just think that you should have told the entire
Speaker 1: tribal council that you both had idols and this wasn't
Speaker 1: about your elimination. This was about which one one of
Speaker 1: them was going to go home. I think if you
Speaker 1: had been so convincing with that, you could have not
Speaker 1: played your idols, which is what you were wanting to do,
Speaker 1: but it would have been more of a clever tactic
Speaker 1: to try and get them to scramble.
Speaker 2: I guess perhaps you're right, Yeah, perhaps you're right. For me,
Speaker 2: it was more so rather than holding someone over a barrel,
Speaker 2: it was more so about forming an alliance. You know
Speaker 2: that I was never going to play that idol. You know,
Speaker 2: I had assumed that the numbers were going to be
Speaker 2: split between Liz and I, and you know, that's what
Speaker 2: we were told, and that we would end up sending
Speaker 2: Sam home. Having gained new alliance members in Haley and Nina.
Speaker 2: I would assume that those girls would have maybe wanted
Speaker 2: to start playing the game a bit harder, you know,
Speaker 2: and get out of the shadow of those fellas. You know,
Speaker 2: they were really hiding under the supervision of those lads.
Speaker 2: And I wanted to make a change, you know, changing
Speaker 2: the narrative. Let's do it, you know. But unfortunately, once again,
Speaker 2: you know, my opinions may not be correct. They're there
Speaker 2: and I'm here.
Speaker 1: So well, so do you think if the moths were
Speaker 1: a little bit different, So that were definitely was Sam.
Speaker 1: So Sam in your mind was going to is Who's
Speaker 1: going to go home? That's what you were within.
Speaker 2: I was pretty comfortable. I knew I was going to
Speaker 2: cop some votes. You know, it was fairly obvious Liz
Speaker 2: and I were the only two people that weren't jumping
Speaker 2: on the hero train. So yeah, I had assumed that
Speaker 2: the votes were going to be split between Liz and I.
Speaker 2: I also thought maybe we'd have Simon. I'd also been
Speaker 2: told that maybe Sean was interested as well, And as
Speaker 2: we saw, Sean was interested right up until the last minute.
Speaker 2: I was fairly comfortable to take that risk. But for me,
Speaker 2: regardless of whether I took the risk or not, it
Speaker 2: was about creating an alliance. Sure, I could have woken
Speaker 2: up the next day on that beach, but then what
Speaker 2: you know, like I was still out numbered. You know,
Speaker 2: I had one alliance member. I was shafted anyway, for
Speaker 2: want of a better.
Speaker 1: Term, well, Sean saying that he was looking forward to
Speaker 1: working with you, I thought, you know, maybe this is
Speaker 1: the tease to the deconstruction of the meat train.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and I would have thought that once again,
Speaker 2: I don't want the guy. But every year I keep going,
Speaker 2: why would you not? You know, I feel like I'm
Speaker 2: saying sad thing I said last year. You know, why
Speaker 2: just make a move. Let's do it. Let's break this up,
Speaker 2: come on, like you know, but once again it's a snowsfest.
Speaker 1: But they see That's where I think it comes down
Speaker 1: to the question I was asking you, and the reason
Speaker 1: why this show has leveled up is when the show
Speaker 1: first came on television, everyone was so scared to go home.
Speaker 1: They played safe and they played no big moves, and
Speaker 1: for the audience at home, it just meant that it
Speaker 1: wasn't as exciting where for you, you played big moves.
Speaker 1: And you know, I think had you been in season
Speaker 1: one doing this, you wouldn't have done that, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, Like I think, yeah.
Speaker 2: No, you're right, you are right, Yeah, one hundred percent,
Speaker 2: You're definitely right there. Yeah, it's changed completely. You know,
Speaker 2: people know that. I think to be I would like
Speaker 2: to think that people are making big moves and strategically
Speaker 2: and intelligently and measured moves to impress the jury at
Speaker 2: the end because they know what it takes. We've seen
Speaker 2: after year when goats arrive at jury at the final,
Speaker 2: at the final tribal, in front of the jury, they're
Speaker 2: not impressed. You don't impress people just getting to the end.
Speaker 2: You impress people by being measured and making smart, striking decisions.
Speaker 2: And I think people know that, and I'd like to
Speaker 2: think that's why, rather than you know, people doing it
Speaker 2: to cause drama or you know, get attention. I hope
Speaker 2: people are, you know, maintaining the purity of survival when
Speaker 2: they make these decisions.
Speaker 1: Well, Shoannie looked a little bit pissed that that idol
Speaker 1: was burnt. Did you owe her a more sensible plan?
Speaker 1: That's what I thought. I thought, you know, maybe easy come,
Speaker 1: easygo scenario where you just were like, oh, hold, we
Speaker 1: got these two idols, now, you know, let's just do whatever.
Speaker 1: You know, let's I don't know, I just I wondered
Speaker 1: whether or not you felt like you should have owed
Speaker 1: her a better play of the idol.
Speaker 2: Sure. I think perhaps it's difficult for people to see
Speaker 2: the situation I was in. You know, there were quite
Speaker 2: literally moments where it was everyone talk and I'm just
Speaker 2: standing there going like, I know, you guys are talking
Speaker 2: about me, you know, and me and Liza just standing
Speaker 2: They're going, we're in trouble here. We got to do something,
Speaker 2: so you know, sensible would be sure, play an idol,
Speaker 2: send someone home. But then what you know, like then
Speaker 2: I'm just sitting there. The idol's gone, it's back in
Speaker 2: play anyway. It's more so about rather than just having
Speaker 2: another morning on the beach, It's about creating in a line.
Speaker 2: I think if people have an understanding of the game,
Speaker 2: they'll know that just another day on the beach doesn't
Speaker 2: mean you're not snooked anymore.
Speaker 1: But you know what's funny, though, is I love Simon
Speaker 1: by the way, I love both of you. Your two
Speaker 1: are so good in this season almost. I mean, people
Speaker 1: talking about George, but I feel like I've been talking
Speaker 1: about you and Simon Moore. And my only concern for
Speaker 1: Simon is I worry can he ever really shake this
Speaker 1: kind of Barney Fife Deputy Dufus connotation that he has
Speaker 1: going at the moment, you know where you get what
Speaker 1: I'm saying here, right? You know, he obviously had gone
Speaker 1: to sleep every night with his line ready to use
Speaker 1: and gold, and he'd said it a thousand times, and
Speaker 1: then when he couldn't get it out, you could see
Speaker 1: the frustration in his eyes.
Speaker 2: It just was, Oh, how funny it was that, Oh,
Speaker 2: the poor bugger, the poor bugger, Like he's you know,
Speaker 2: his whole world is wrapped up in Survivor, and unfortunately,
Speaker 2: I think he's placing too much importance around his performance,
Speaker 2: you know, while the prize is life changing, I think
Speaker 2: that character beats strategy any day personally. And I think that,
Speaker 2: you know, because he's so wrapped up in it, he
Speaker 2: finds out hard to see. Clearly, he can't see. He
Speaker 2: doesn't have the perspective on the game that you need
Speaker 2: to see. Pass. For example, Sean and Sam cooked up
Speaker 2: last night getting him to hand over what he thought
Speaker 2: was an idol, you know, like, mate, can you not
Speaker 2: see how you're just being worked over? Like take some control.
Speaker 2: And that's what I try and sell tell people, and
Speaker 2: that's sort of what I was preaching last night, was
Speaker 2: don't back someone into a corner and expect them to
Speaker 2: do what you tell them to do, you know, like,
Speaker 2: at least have a dig, have a crack, you know,
Speaker 2: don't just bend over for the majority. At least try something.
Speaker 1: I guess though, that Simon really only exists in the
Speaker 1: survival world, and I guess that can be quite dangerous
Speaker 1: in a way where for you, for some reason, the
Speaker 1: way you've played, and I guess the media profile that
Speaker 1: you've managed to create for yourself means that we could
Speaker 1: see you in any format, like you know, you could
Speaker 1: go on to something else and exist outside of that.
Speaker 1: So I guess the pressure for him might be a
Speaker 1: little bit stronger than you. I guess because you might
Speaker 1: be closer.
Speaker 2: Really, that was lovely I mean to say about me,
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think that. Look to be honest, I
Speaker 2: haven't I've not done anything. I'm not in control of
Speaker 2: the way that the public perceives me. You and I
Speaker 2: both know that the general public can decide however they
Speaker 2: want to believe. They can believe anything they want to believe,
Speaker 2: you know, And it's not to do with me. I'm
Speaker 2: just I just put myself out there, you know, and
Speaker 2: I'm received how I am received. And Simon does it same.
Speaker 2: He puts himself out there and he's received how however
Speaker 2: he has received, you know. And so in the end,
Speaker 2: I think true characters shine through and what's genuine comes
Speaker 2: through I think as well. And people see through, people
Speaker 2: see through it, people see through what you display, People
Speaker 2: see through you know, you know, the idealistic image that
Speaker 2: you portray. And so I think by just keeping it
Speaker 2: real and you know, perhaps not try not even trying
Speaker 2: to pretend don't even try and lie to the general public.
Speaker 2: They can see what's going on.
Speaker 1: I agree, I agree, But I also think you are
Speaker 1: in control of that. I think on reality TV, you know,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of variables you could you're so freely
Speaker 1: giving away your narrative and letting other people have that
Speaker 1: in their hands. But at the very core of who
Speaker 1: you are, no matter who you no matter how you play
Speaker 1: good or bad, the audience will see through. They will
Speaker 1: connect to you. Yeah, and that currency is much more
Speaker 1: powerful and viable in a long game than just being
Speaker 1: a big character in one season of Survivor.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're right. I think you're right, and
Speaker 2: I you know, I think that maybe for up and
Speaker 2: coming players, maybe that's a good lesson. You know, try and.
Speaker 1: Though Geordie, it depends. Maybe you just want to be
Speaker 1: on Survivor. Maybe you just want to have the Survivor showbag,
Speaker 1: and you know you've got that for life, and you
Speaker 1: can go back and undo the Survivor showback and go
Speaker 1: through it and tell your friends. Maybe that's all.
Speaker 2: You You're right. Everyone's different, everyone's got a different idea
Speaker 2: is about what they want from their life. But you know,
Speaker 2: I guess for me personally, I can only speak from
Speaker 2: personal experience and my own personal opinion. You know, there
Speaker 2: is much more going on in our world outside of Survivors,
Speaker 2: so you've got to think past it, you know. And
Speaker 2: sure that doesn't mean don't get involved and don't put
Speaker 2: your whole heart into Survivor. Like I gave everything I
Speaker 2: had to the game. You know, when you're out there,
Speaker 2: you've got to you've got to rip in. But but
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean compromising who you are as a person.
Speaker 2: That doesn't mean Yeah, that doesn't mean saying lines or
Speaker 2: acting or playing your character. Don't play a character. Just
Speaker 2: go out there and be yourself and give it everything
Speaker 2: you've got.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: And that's still living out a Survivor dream.
Speaker 1: Well, it's because you know, if you are just playing
Speaker 1: lines and you are leaning into a character, you're only
Speaker 1: as good as the last line that you had.
Speaker 2: So it's very true.
Speaker 1: You may have a couple of episodes where you don't
Speaker 1: know that you haven't had time to script or something,
Speaker 1: or come out with something of a doozy. People go, ah,
Speaker 1: have you watched the vival last two episodes? Oh Simon,
Speaker 1: you know he's not as good as what he was,
Speaker 1: you know, it dissipates very quickly. I was going to say,
Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of idols again at play
Speaker 1: and if you read the commentary board, everyone's like, I
Speaker 1: hate that there's so many idols in Australia, where I
Speaker 1: actually think this season we've seen an amazing use of idols.
Speaker 1: But what are your thoughts with this? Do you enjoy
Speaker 1: a season of Survival with a lot of idols or
Speaker 1: do you think that we are using too many of them?
Speaker 2: Oh? Look, I think it's great. Most of the time,
Speaker 2: there are two in play on each beach, you know,
Speaker 2: after a certain amount of time, they're both released into
Speaker 2: the wild, you know, And personally, I think that's a
Speaker 2: good thing. It's always been a part of the game
Speaker 2: and for me, they're an opportunity to enhance the game,
Speaker 2: not hinder. They're there to enhance, and I think they
Speaker 2: played a good, a positive role in this seat.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think in some seasons though, it felt like, oh,
Speaker 1: we can't lose this storyline, we can't lose this character,
Speaker 1: so we're just going to put an idol right in
Speaker 1: front of them and the audience goes, oh no and
Speaker 1: slaps the head and goes this is too orchestrated. We
Speaker 1: I feel like with this season, it's not the case.
Speaker 1: It's not like they're just being used to save certain characters. Man,
Speaker 1: we've just lost you. You're like the Ricky Lee moment
Speaker 1: of survivor losing at this point, Ricky Lee, every episode,
Speaker 1: I have my non negotiables on people that you can't
Speaker 1: go home, you know. And I didn't even feel like
Speaker 1: you in the tribal. You were sitting there and you
Speaker 1: were like, I'm just here to enjoy myself, and I
Speaker 1: was like, I'm just here to enjoy myself. There's no
Speaker 1: way Jeordie's going home. And then when you went home,
Speaker 1: I kept waiting for the camera to turn around and
Speaker 1: you to be shipped off to Hell Whole Island or
Speaker 1: wherever it was going to be. And the fact that
Speaker 1: you went home and it rolled into the promo for
Speaker 1: the next episode, I was like, what the fuck's going
Speaker 1: on now? Like the Ricky Lay moment.
Speaker 2: Oh made I know, I know it's a bit like that,
Speaker 2: but you know, on the Idols thing and on people
Speaker 2: going home and people being saying, look, I'd like to
Speaker 2: think I'm a survivor purist, you know, I'd like to
Speaker 2: think that there's not too much of that going on,
Speaker 2: and a lot of it is, and i'd like to
Speaker 2: think that all of it is by chance, you know,
Speaker 2: and these things just happen. Yeah, I think that's as
Speaker 2: far as I'll take that.
Speaker 1: What about I know, you can't really say too much
Speaker 1: without making it sound like you know, you're big noting
Speaker 1: yourself or anything like I can't of get it. But
Speaker 1: you know, there's also so much commentary about, you know,
Speaker 1: the camera time and the pieces to camera that everyone gets.
Speaker 1: I mean, you had a bunch of camera times throughout
Speaker 1: the season, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're safe. Is
Speaker 1: there any methodology behind the process of you know, how
Speaker 1: much screen time people a get and those pieces to cameras.
Speaker 2: That's interesting, to be honest. It becomes about the storyline,
Speaker 2: and so it's not necessarily about who's going home who's staying. Like,
Speaker 2: there are a lot of people who have made it
Speaker 2: this far and haven't had a lot on camera, and
Speaker 2: you know, that's not necessarily down to how far they
Speaker 2: make it or how influential they are in the game.
Speaker 2: It comes down to the storyline and how they want
Speaker 2: that to be shaped. You know that comes down to
Speaker 2: the editing and production, and they do a good job
Speaker 2: of it. I think they do a good job of it,
Speaker 2: trying to accurately as best they can and also simplify it.
Speaker 2: What a lot of people don't understand is there are
Speaker 2: a lot more complexities, a lot more details that get
Speaker 2: left out, a lot of conversations that aren't shown because
Speaker 2: it has to be kept simple and keep the storyline
Speaker 2: down the straight and narrow so that people can follow
Speaker 2: and understand. While there are a lot of people that
Speaker 2: I'm sure we go, oh, give us the complexities, give
Speaker 2: us the detail. For the average Joe Blow might go, oh,
Speaker 2: this is too confusing, I don't know, switch it over
Speaker 2: to maps.
Speaker 1: The best producers that I know are so good at
Speaker 1: this sort of stuff, and one of them said to
Speaker 1: me recently, it always has to speak to clarity of
Speaker 1: the storyline, you know, and if you can speak to clarity,
Speaker 1: it helps the audience. So as a player, if anyone's
Speaker 1: listening to this and they're going to go into a show,
Speaker 1: if you've signed up to survivor, speak to clarity of
Speaker 1: the storyline that you're there, because that's how you're going
Speaker 1: to be seen. You could have an amazing conversation about
Speaker 1: something personal that happened to you in your life off
Speaker 1: the side of the beach and it do you know
Speaker 1: what I mean?
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1: Whoop? Do you do? Your audience is, you know, only
Speaker 1: the cast survivor on the beach and a couple of
Speaker 1: camera crew, But you are talking to the show. If
Speaker 1: you are talking to the narratives anyway, I'm getting You're right, You.
Speaker 2: Are right, you bang on. Yeah, you've got to be
Speaker 2: clear and if you're up to date with what's happening
Speaker 2: in the game at that time. If you if you
Speaker 2: are on top of it and you can clearly convey
Speaker 2: and portray what is happening, they're going to want to
Speaker 2: ask you more questions.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well we're going to struggle. Now, we will struggle.
Speaker 1: Just before I let you go, one quick question was
Speaker 1: your relationship with George? You know, would you have been
Speaker 1: able to salvage that relationship with George because what he
Speaker 1: did to you at that tribal council was fucked? But
Speaker 1: how would that have played it? We've been robbed of
Speaker 1: the end of that story. How would that have played
Speaker 1: out in your mind?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Look, it was a tricky one at that point
Speaker 2: in time. You know, even after that tribal council, they
Speaker 2: were they were being a bit of hard work around
Speaker 2: the camp. So I think if it was to come
Speaker 2: to another tribal council before tribeslop, it would have been
Speaker 2: interesting to see those two go head to head. They
Speaker 2: were still having at it, but you know, having the
Speaker 2: tribes swap play out. George and I had maintained a relationship.
Speaker 2: We'd realize that moving forward, because of the numbers, we
Speaker 2: were going to have to work together, and I think
Speaker 2: that showed in George and Shanee. There is no way
Speaker 2: Shanne would have handed that idle over without George's permission. True,
Speaker 2: you know, so we would have always come back together
Speaker 2: at some point. But he can do anything at any time.
Speaker 2: He doesn't always think through things fully.
Speaker 1: I don't think as much as people realize. Everyone that's
Speaker 1: come on the podcast normally asked them are behind the
Speaker 1: scenes secret which you know we're not allowed to really do,
Speaker 1: even though I've kind of dipped into that a little
Speaker 1: bit today. But I was going to ask you when
Speaker 1: you left the competition, who did you think was the
Speaker 1: most likely to win? Not what you know now, but
Speaker 1: as you walk out of the tribal council.
Speaker 2: Likely to win, it's a tricky one of the returnees.
Speaker 2: I would have thought Seannie would have had a good shot.
Speaker 2: I think she's super intelligent and she makes great decisions.
Speaker 1: And then everyone, instead of asking some other questions, I've
Speaker 1: just been saying would you come back again? Of course
Speaker 1: you would, because everyone would. But I feel like for you,
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be another season of Heroes versus Villain or
Speaker 1: a tagline like that. I feel like the only time
Speaker 1: we would see you come back to Survivor was if
Speaker 1: it was a World Challenge, you know, it was that.
Speaker 2: Huge Yeah, yeah, yeah, it'd have to be a big deal.
Speaker 2: It would have to be a big deal.
Speaker 1: We couldn't see it come back with another We couldn't
Speaker 1: see another promo for the Joker, just in another series,
Speaker 1: you know, which is like, I don't know, Underdogs versus
Speaker 1: you know, the Deck of Cards whatever, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean?
Speaker 2: Everyone wants to see that. You don't want to see that.
Speaker 2: I don't want to see that. The audience doesn't want
Speaker 2: to see that. I think you're right, I think it
Speaker 2: would be it would be something pretty cool, you know,
Speaker 2: any opportunity is a great opportunity with Survivor, and I'm
Speaker 2: very grateful and I would of course be honored. I'd
Speaker 2: be honored.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I have the Jordi show bag, and I
Speaker 1: think so fantastic on the show. I look forward to
Speaker 1: following your story.
Speaker 2: That's lovely. Thank you, Ben. I appreciate that, you know,
Speaker 2: And in the end, I guess that's what matters, doesn't it.
Speaker 2: You know, Sure, money, money is great, but I think yeah,
Speaker 2: character beats strategy any day.
Speaker 1: A great chat with Jordy and a good warm up
Speaker 1: for things to come. With my next guest, let's bring
Speaker 1: Benjamin Law into the pod. I hope you get some
Speaker 1: really fun exclusives in this chat, and I hope you
Speaker 1: enjoyed this episode. Hi, Benjamin Law. I'm very excited to
Speaker 1: be unpacking this season of Survivor with you.
Speaker 3: I'm stokes that I get to do this with you,
Speaker 3: Benjamin Lorris, because I feel like you caught me at
Speaker 3: birth and death right like before everything started, and now
Speaker 3: that I'm the shriveled husk on the other side of
Speaker 3: my tribal council, You've seen my whole journey.
Speaker 1: I really have it. It was amazing to have that
Speaker 1: chat with you before to sort of get your ideas
Speaker 1: on how the experience must have been versus how you've
Speaker 1: watched it on television. I mean, they're very different experiences.
Speaker 1: So we're gonna get something different from you today. If
Speaker 1: people have listened to that first chat, I'm sure.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, no, well observed it is. It is a
Speaker 3: very different experience, and you've probably experienced this as well,
Speaker 3: which is like your experience of being in there versus
Speaker 3: the narrative that comes out. But I have to say
Speaker 3: in a good way, like obviously the show's edited, you
Speaker 3: know where, we've got cameras on us twenty four hours
Speaker 3: a day, So to actually craft something like the Shakespearean
Speaker 3: Greek tragedy level like myth that we saw last night
Speaker 3: at my tribal, it's like props to the editors because
Speaker 3: obviously I had my own experience. But to see that,
Speaker 3: you know, the cookie idols shoved in Simon's lovely but
Speaker 3: to Sean's hands, to Flick's hands, then her her use
Speaker 3: it and for me to see it, and I'm the
Speaker 3: only one who who could have told her what it
Speaker 3: actually is except Flick, for whatever inexplicable reason doesn't trust me.
Speaker 3: It's just claw face inducing TV in the most delicious way.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I'm a comedy writer and what I saw
Speaker 3: last night was pure comedy.
Speaker 1: I'm happy that you're laughing at it, because that's the
Speaker 1: better way to see it. But you know, in relation
Speaker 1: to how you thought this would go versus how it went,
Speaker 1: how do you feel?
Speaker 3: It's really interesting to talk about expectations versus reality, especially
Speaker 3: when you're going into something that you've never done before
Speaker 3: and into a habitat to which you don't ostensibly belong.
Speaker 3: You know, like I'm an inner city kind of person
Speaker 3: involved in arts and media to uses my brain, like
Speaker 3: to put me out outdoors for this law, and like,
Speaker 3: obviously I was reticent, but one of the things I
Speaker 3: didn't expect was how how much I kind of loved
Speaker 3: that aspect of it. Like I kind of loved being
Speaker 3: outdoors and getting kind of gross. I mean, I didn't
Speaker 3: love the mosquitoes. I didn't love the fact that my
Speaker 3: flesh started rotting. Other than that that was quite fine.
Speaker 3: When I went in there and I clocked my fellow
Speaker 3: tribe mates, especially on the heroes, and like, wow, that's
Speaker 3: an asset in a way. These jacked dudes who are
Speaker 3: going to push through all of these challenges. That's going
Speaker 3: to keep me safe for quite a while. But your
Speaker 3: assets also your liabilities, and I'm like, it also means
Speaker 3: that I'm on the outer in my own tribe and
Speaker 3: that's really really tough. And when I clocked that, I thought, Look,
Speaker 3: if I make it through this show and I'm not
Speaker 3: say first boot, you know, the first one voted out,
Speaker 3: then everything else is a bonus. And then when I
Speaker 3: think of everything that I've gone through, like winning to
Speaker 3: puzzle challenges, introducing Osland to Survivor with page and using
Speaker 3: Australian sign language between a challenge, they have been really
Speaker 3: like wonderful moments in a series of admittedly muliation after humiliation,
Speaker 3: but other than that, I'm really stoked at how things
Speaker 3: have panned out. You can't go into this game with
Speaker 3: too many expectations. You need to be surprised.
Speaker 1: Well, your analogy of the meat tray is iconic and
Speaker 1: we'll go down in Australian Survivor history. I mean, you'd
Speaker 1: have to be happy with that contribution to this series
Speaker 1: because it's the footnote that just keeps being used.
Speaker 3: Well, finally, you mentioned that Ben because obviously the meat train,
Speaker 3: you though, I've been called the meat tray, but they
Speaker 3: didn't know that I had given them cuts of meat
Speaker 3: as well. That has now taken off to the point
Speaker 3: where it's actually David Zach Zacharakis's birthday today, So Zach's birthday.
Speaker 3: And what I've discovered through Zaka and his girlfriend who
Speaker 3: have now hung out with, is that the name, at
Speaker 3: least for him, has stuck. Like he is known as
Speaker 3: Backstrap to his mates, to his lovely partner Amy, like
Speaker 3: the fact that I have introduced a nickname into his
Speaker 3: domestic relationship and his friendship circle. Like, I'm pretty proud
Speaker 3: of it.
Speaker 1: I yelled that one out before you said it, and
Speaker 1: I was sitting next to my partner and he was like,
Speaker 1: how did you know? And I'm like, come on, look
Speaker 1: at him. He is bad the lamb Backstrap, Like it's
Speaker 1: just that's who he is, you know, He's all that
Speaker 1: bad delicious.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Favorite.
Speaker 1: You know you said to me before the show started
Speaker 1: that you thought that, you know, heroes may do villainous things.
Speaker 1: Were there times that you felt like you behaved villainous
Speaker 1: or maybe in a way that you might not in
Speaker 1: the real world.
Speaker 3: Are you kidding? Did you see me throw Shany under
Speaker 3: the bus with no regrets or no hesitation whatsoever. I'm
Speaker 3: just like, ah, Shani, forgive me, but today you're low
Speaker 3: hanging fruit, and I know I'm at the bottom. But
Speaker 3: at the same time, I do think that the narrative
Speaker 3: that Shani was like a complete victim who didn't know
Speaker 3: what was going on at that tribal is kind of
Speaker 3: unfair towards Shanny because she was playing in the She
Speaker 3: was playing the game out there in a way that
Speaker 3: I actually really respect. So two of my favorite Shiny memories. One,
Speaker 3: We're on a hammock together and I was like, dude,
Speaker 3: there are five of us on the bottom. It's going
Speaker 3: to be me next, but soon after it will be you, Jerry, Haley,
Speaker 3: and Nina. Right, and you've got these four strong meat tray.
Speaker 3: And one of the things that doesn't translate well enough
Speaker 3: into TV, I think, is how close Flick and Page
Speaker 3: are to each other and to the meat tray. Page
Speaker 3: and Flick are already talking about getting matching tattoos. By
Speaker 3: this stage, I'm pretty sure Page has been invited to
Speaker 3: Flick's wedding. The meat tray are absolutely enamored with Page,
Speaker 3: and Page is absolutely worshiping of the meatray in, you know,
Speaker 3: for reasons that are quite obvious. So that tight six
Speaker 3: versus US five. I was collaborating with Shiny, saying, hey,
Speaker 3: we need to make a move, like, are you in
Speaker 3: on this? Also, people are watching us talk now just laugh.
Speaker 3: You're an amazing actor. Laugh like I've said something funny.
Speaker 3: And she was bringing it in a way. I was like,
Speaker 3: oh my god, you were really good at this. But
Speaker 3: then when it was clear that Shiny probably wasn't worth
Speaker 3: working with me for several reasons, I got that instinct.
Speaker 3: My second favorite memory of her is we're just about
Speaker 3: to go into that tribal and she's standing in front
Speaker 3: of me with her torch and I'm standing behind her
Speaker 3: with my torch, and she just looks to me and
Speaker 3: she just grabs my arm and she gives it a
Speaker 3: lovely squeeze, as if to say everything's going to be okay, Ben, beautiful,
Speaker 3: meaningful look, and I give her squeeze back, you know,
Speaker 3: conveying exactly the same thing. Each of us in that
Speaker 3: moment privately planning to write down the other person's name
Speaker 3: and annihilate the living hell out of them. And in
Speaker 3: that way, I say respect to Shanny, because you know,
Speaker 3: there was a part of me that felt really, really bad.
Speaker 3: I'm just like, oh my god, I'm just throwing this
Speaker 3: poor innocent victim under the bus. Shani is not a victim,
Speaker 3: and she is not not playing. She is playing out there,
Speaker 3: and I was just like, yeah, you wrote my name down.
Speaker 3: Props Todio, but also sorry, here comes on going traffic.
Speaker 1: He's the apology. Now, you know, the Idle clue was
Speaker 1: interesting because you never thought it was a real idol,
Speaker 1: while Simon immediately did you know, what did you think
Speaker 1: of Simon's Adam and c that that disc was an idol?
Speaker 3: I watched that and I thought, there, but for the
Speaker 3: grace of God, go I because you know that it's something,
Speaker 3: but you don't know what it is. And I guess
Speaker 3: the only way I got out of that Scott Free
Speaker 3: was I treated it almost like a maths exam in
Speaker 3: high school. You know, like in math exams you need
Speaker 3: to show you're working out. And so when I'm like,
Speaker 3: I've got this thing, and then I'm like what is it?
Speaker 3: And I'm like, I think it's an idol, but maybe
Speaker 3: it's not. It doesn't come with instruct Idols have always
Speaker 3: come with instructions. Maybe this is a trick, Maybe this
Speaker 3: is a cause you need to start voicing out things
Speaker 3: because you know the game's there to trick you along
Speaker 3: the way. It's never going to be straightforward. And coming
Speaker 3: from the bottom of my tribe and knowing that everyone's
Speaker 3: out to get me, I don't assume that easy breaks
Speaker 3: are coming my way. I know there are booby traps
Speaker 3: throughout this entire game, and I'm like, I just don't
Speaker 3: think this is an idol, because if it is, that
Speaker 3: came way too easily. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: I think it was clever of you. I mean, I
Speaker 1: didn't think it was an idol when I saw him
Speaker 1: get that out. I didn't see the letter. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm pretty what.
Speaker 3: Did you know it was? Or do you have any theories?
Speaker 3: At that stage, I.
Speaker 1: Thought it would be that people would well for some reason,
Speaker 1: my brain lied to me, and I thought someone else
Speaker 1: had already found it before you did, or before Simon did.
Speaker 1: And I thought there might have been three of them
Speaker 1: that had surfaced somehow, and I thought maybe the three
Speaker 1: of them will put together. It may lead to you
Speaker 1: getting a you know, a fast pass to the final three.
Speaker 3: Oh interesting.
Speaker 1: You know, I thought that there was something more to it,
Speaker 1: but I certainly did not think it was an idol.
Speaker 1: And that's why, even when Flick had it, I thought,
Speaker 1: you know, she could have burnt that idol in front
Speaker 1: of everyone in that final and the tribal counsel that
Speaker 1: you went home, and everyone wouldn't have had the chance
Speaker 1: for j LP to say it wasn't real. She would
Speaker 1: have just burnt it and done that on good authority.
Speaker 1: And you could have also then followed her and thrown
Speaker 1: it in the fire in good authority, and then maybe Matt,
Speaker 1: you know, God bless you, and Turf would have gone home.
Speaker 1: So I thought that, you know, I mean, when you're
Speaker 1: a viewer at home, and you would know this because
Speaker 1: now you've been a viewer and now you've been in
Speaker 1: the show. These two things have very different relationships. But
Speaker 1: that's how I thought could have played out and would
Speaker 1: have made good television.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, look, I think the outcome that did pan
Speaker 3: out with Flick playing the fake idol and me knowing
Speaker 3: that it wasn't and I'm the only person who could
Speaker 3: have told her, like I thought that was just deliciously
Speaker 3: yetted it like, of course it wasn't plotted because we
Speaker 3: were just muddling our way through it. But I'm like,
Speaker 3: you can not engineer a more hilarious plot line over
Speaker 3: Like I think four or five episodes like that, that
Speaker 3: butt crack idol traveled far.
Speaker 1: How hot was that butt crack? By the way, at
Speaker 1: that particular point, just that bit there, I was like, no,
Speaker 1: wonder They put it on the ad for the next episode,
Speaker 1: so we got to watch it three times I think
Speaker 1: by the time it was all over. But it's very attractive.
Speaker 2: But some people.
Speaker 3: ASTI Survivor is the gayest show on TV, even if
Speaker 3: it is coded gay. That moment between Jeordi and Simon
Speaker 3: is the most hilariously homo erotic thing I've seen TV
Speaker 3: in a really long time.
Speaker 1: You're an Australian Survivor fan, and you have obviously watched
Speaker 1: the show and would have seen a lot of these
Speaker 1: players before. Who were you the most shocked to be
Speaker 1: playing with that they were different to how you expected.
Speaker 3: Oh, that's such an interesting question. Look, Shannon Guss, who
Speaker 3: is like a Survivor expert, she often says, you can't
Speaker 3: play the game as anyone as yourself. And I remember George.
Speaker 3: We had a bit of an exchange out there. There
Speaker 3: was interesting tension between George and I that didn't quite
Speaker 3: convey to the TV, but George did sit me down
Speaker 3: and he said, Ben, one of the things you've got
Speaker 3: to realize is who you are in the game is
Speaker 3: who you are in real life. And I actually do
Speaker 3: think he's got a really strong point there, because you
Speaker 3: can't keep a mask up for very long out there.
Speaker 3: And even George, who's such a big character, that is
Speaker 3: him on the island, and you know, I've hung out
Speaker 3: with Georgian in real life. That's kind of him in
Speaker 3: real life, Like he is a big, bold character who's
Speaker 3: full of gameplay, big declarations, and an incredible political mind.
Speaker 3: And so I think, if anything, I was probably more
Speaker 3: surprised by the fact that who I expected them to
Speaker 3: be kind of matched my reality when I actually interacted
Speaker 3: with them. I was really looking forward to playing with Haley.
Speaker 3: We were really tired out there on the island, really
Speaker 3: looking forward to playing with Nina. We remain close outside
Speaker 3: of the game, even though she tried to murder me
Speaker 3: several times, which is just hilarious. We both understand it's
Speaker 3: a game. But Nina also fed me key bits of
Speaker 3: intel at key moments so I could help save myself,
Speaker 3: which was really appreciated.
Speaker 1: But the one thing I felt was that I felt
Speaker 1: like we didn't get enough of an explanation as to
Speaker 1: why the Heroes tribe didn't seem to bond with you.
Speaker 3: It's interesting there's been a few theories as to why,
Speaker 3: because I think a lot of audience members share a
Speaker 3: little bit of your battlement around that. So one is
Speaker 3: obviously making a fake idol in front of everyone, and
Speaker 3: by that stage, I realized my stocks were so low.
Speaker 3: But Page had found this animal skull in the woods. Shanni,
Speaker 3: I noticed, was really good at braiding. The three of
Speaker 3: us kind of like started this fake idol project together,
Speaker 3: And my recollection of Island time was we were like,
Speaker 3: oh my god, let's do this thing together. How can
Speaker 3: we make it better? How can we make it better?
Speaker 3: Once we get to tribe swap, I'm so hero strong.
Speaker 3: Let's pass it to whoever has the fewest tribe members
Speaker 3: original hero tribe members and use this thing as a weapon.
Speaker 3: And so I'm not sure if that actually made people
Speaker 3: genuinely scared of me, or whether they were seeking something
Speaker 3: to confirm biases or hunches they already had about me.
Speaker 3: It is interesting. I know, Nina on the other side
Speaker 3: of the game told me, dude, we were just really
Speaker 3: scared of you, like we were paranoid around you because
Speaker 3: you seemed smart. And I have to laugh at that,
Speaker 3: because I guess I am smart in some ways. But
Speaker 3: I felt like on the island, I was the most
Speaker 3: basic bitch, you know. I was just like, please don't
Speaker 3: hurt me. I just really want to help win challenges.
Speaker 3: I don't want to be a liability to this tribe.
Speaker 3: You want some rice, you want some coconut? Here, it
Speaker 3: is here, it is. You want me to feel your
Speaker 3: water bottles like there.
Speaker 1: Was Maybe it was too in your face though, Ben
Speaker 1: like maybe it was two may Well put together. You know, look,
Speaker 1: I think, I mean, I still think of those sorts
Speaker 1: of things in all reality shows. You know, you have
Speaker 1: to be able to help people improve that you have
Speaker 1: a worth in the game without making it look like
Speaker 1: you're doing it just to have people like you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it could be hard. I assume there might have been
Speaker 1: sorts of conversations that you're having with them that was
Speaker 1: unsettling them, you know, I mean maybe putting out out
Speaker 1: there or talking about what it is that you do
Speaker 1: might have been intimidating to them because of your intelligence.
Speaker 3: I also think I'm just a really different proposition to
Speaker 3: a lot of people on the island as well, like
Speaker 3: you know, race, size, sexuality, Like there are a lot
Speaker 3: of people in my tribe who are very similar and
Speaker 3: you see them ban to each other, and I think
Speaker 3: in extreme circumstances, you do flock to safety and familiarity,
Speaker 3: and I'm a bit more of an unfa familiar, untested
Speaker 3: presence to probably a lot of people on the tribe.
Speaker 3: And I'm not saying that accounts to everything, but I
Speaker 3: know that even with myself. You know, I got really
Speaker 3: tight with Hailey because we come from an academic background.
Speaker 3: We read some like we not just read similar books,
Speaker 3: we'd read exactly the same novel in the lead up
Speaker 3: to shooting the show, like that's just spooky. So of
Speaker 3: course we had a lot to talk about, and we're
Speaker 3: not massive physical threats, so we kind of bonded together there.
Speaker 3: But when you are playing as a bit of an outsider,
Speaker 3: it's a bit of catch twenty two because you don't
Speaker 3: want to emphasize the things that make you different. You
Speaker 3: want to go that extra mile to prove that you
Speaker 3: are like them. And the way that I tried to
Speaker 3: bridge that was through helpfulness and through humor. But obviously
Speaker 3: that didn't work. But that's usually how I approach things
Speaker 3: in life, and like I said before, you can't really
Speaker 3: play the game as anyone but yourself.
Speaker 1: One of the interesting things that was said online, though,
Speaker 1: was that if one of the Meat Trait had made
Speaker 1: that idol, had been making a fake idol themselves, it
Speaker 1: would have been celebrated. It may have come across differently.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if you saw any of that conversation,
Speaker 1: but do you think that it would have been celebrated
Speaker 1: differently and looked at differently if it was one of
Speaker 1: the meat Tray.
Speaker 3: Oh look, we'll never know. But what I do know
Speaker 3: is things like, look, I overbid at the ouction. I
Speaker 3: don't even remember overbidding. I think that's less strategic and
Speaker 3: more about me being bad at maths, but that immediately
Speaker 3: caused suspicion for me, Whereas I think at least one
Speaker 3: person on the New Villains tribe one of the meat
Speaker 3: Tray overbid on their reward and that was celebrated. So
Speaker 3: I think, you know, none of us go into the
Speaker 3: game neutral. All of us go with different kinds of
Speaker 3: social currency in the game. And I guess I could
Speaker 3: go into the game, you know, knowing how to start
Speaker 3: a conversation with anyone. Being an interviewer like yourself, you
Speaker 3: have to bring that to the game. But other people
Speaker 3: have the advantages of being, you know, immediately someone you
Speaker 3: look up to, like I don't have much hype, But
Speaker 3: if you've got hype, people are literally looking up to
Speaker 3: like immediately they see you like a leader and do
Speaker 3: not want to play against you. And also you flock
Speaker 3: to where the strength is, like I don't have that
Speaker 3: physical strength. My whole thing, especially in that phase of
Speaker 3: the game, is please do not be a liability to
Speaker 3: these athletes, like, do not be the one who stacks it.
Speaker 3: Don't be the one who gets hospitalized poor Jackie and George.
Speaker 3: Just be the one who can be helpful and funny
Speaker 3: out there while also hopefully proving your worth with the
Speaker 3: challenges which I think you know two puzzle challenges and
Speaker 3: being instrumental to solving them. I was just like, well,
Speaker 3: hopefully have proven my worth. Hopefully I have proved my worth,
Speaker 3: but no dice.
Speaker 1: Well, just quickly before we move off that though, how
Speaker 1: did you know that?
Speaker 2: The Like?
Speaker 1: That was interesting that someone was like he knew that
Speaker 1: what an idol looked like, you know, he knew that
Speaker 1: it was green this year, Meena, I said that, yeah,
Speaker 1: And I thought that was a really interesting thing for
Speaker 1: her to say at that point, because how did you
Speaker 1: know that that? I mean, you were building an idol
Speaker 1: that looked exactly the same as the others.
Speaker 3: How did that happen? Is I genuinely didn't know what
Speaker 3: an idol looked like because every season the looks of
Speaker 3: the idle change.
Speaker 1: They do.
Speaker 3: All I knew was like, if we make something that
Speaker 3: looks convincingly like an idol, and we just happened to
Speaker 3: have this green stone on our bag, and like, rip
Speaker 3: off that stone, turn it into the idol, wrap it
Speaker 3: up with a skull. I know how to do arts
Speaker 3: and crafts, shiny braid, give me the skull flick. You
Speaker 3: found something in the woods, let's add it to it. Like,
Speaker 3: I didn't know what an idol looked like at that stage,
Speaker 3: So it's interesting that they leapt to that conclusion that
Speaker 3: I did.
Speaker 1: I thought it was clever. I thought it was clever
Speaker 1: that they did. When you do a social experiment like this,
Speaker 1: you do you do hear contestants say, you know, this
Speaker 1: feels a lot like high school? You know? Was that
Speaker 1: the case for you? And? Well, I guess how did
Speaker 1: it feel being back at school as an LGBTO warrior
Speaker 1: like yourself in twenty twenty three, Because no offense to
Speaker 1: you and I, but we went to school many years ago.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, many many years ago. Well look,
Speaker 3: and to that point, I think after Jerry, I might
Speaker 3: have been the second oldest person on the heroes tribe.
Speaker 3: So it does show you, like I also had an
Speaker 3: age gap that I needed to bridge with the other
Speaker 3: contestants too.
Speaker 1: But was it like high school? And did the LGBTI
Speaker 1: factor come into play?
Speaker 3: I don't think the queenness necessarily came into play. I mean,
Speaker 3: certainly the talk there was pretty heterosexual, and you want
Speaker 3: to be able to talk about sex, but you're also
Speaker 3: aware that your conversations of sex are going to be
Speaker 3: pretty confronting, like queer sex is just confronting to a
Speaker 3: lot of straight people. You don't get to have those
Speaker 3: conversations like the way the men talked about women out
Speaker 3: there is something that I haven't encountered since high school actually,
Speaker 3: and so I couldn't quite find a foothold. It's like, yeah,
Speaker 3: tits like I'm not like I can't do that. I'm
Speaker 3: not that person. So that was challenging. But I don't
Speaker 3: think it's like sexuality was like necessarily the main.
Speaker 1: It just was more curious, Ben, because I was thinking
Speaker 1: about it in the sense of this is a real
Speaker 1: social experiment and you are putting people back into a
Speaker 1: situation where we as humans fall into line like we
Speaker 1: you know, we mimic things that have happened in our
Speaker 1: lie before. And I wondered whether or not Survivor in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three represents what it would be like to
Speaker 1: be in school in twenty twenty three.
Speaker 3: Well, it reminded me what it was like to be
Speaker 3: in high school in nineteen ninety nine, which is to say,
Speaker 3: you know, jock's rule, and these are lovely jocks by
Speaker 3: the way, I love them and I get along with
Speaker 3: them outside of the game, but it does mean that
Speaker 3: you are on the outer and you need to find
Speaker 3: other crafty or as others would say, shifty ways of
Speaker 3: making sure that you survive another another day. And sometimes desperate,
Speaker 3: desperate situations call for desperate means. And I was just like, well,
Speaker 3: if you think I'm shifty, I'll give you something to
Speaker 3: really think that I'm shifty about. But to that point,
Speaker 3: I hadn't I hadn't actually done anything that should have
Speaker 3: portrayed trust or made me question made them question my judgment.
Speaker 3: But I do think when you're so conspicuously different, you know,
Speaker 3: I'm obviously such a different person, it's natural and expected
Speaker 3: and it's not an unfamiliar John to me to have
Speaker 3: people immediately be a little bit more cautious around you.
Speaker 1: If there was more series of the Family Law, we
Speaker 1: could easily see you and survivor.
Speaker 3: Family Law season seventeen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and how do you write that on how.
Speaker 3: Well, there's way more material than what we saw on
Speaker 3: the screen. So and that's it's all here.
Speaker 1: I'll catch up with you for a drink for that
Speaker 1: because I want to know. But we're talking very PG
Speaker 1: exit interview style of conversation. You know, you would have
Speaker 1: brought a lot of new viewers to this series, and
Speaker 1: I saw that a lot online, people saying they came
Speaker 1: to the show because of you, you know, But I
Speaker 1: wanted to know about your inner circle and what they thought,
Speaker 1: because I imagine that a lot of you're in a circle,
Speaker 1: you know, reality TV is outside of their bubble. What
Speaker 1: did they think of Australian Survivor.
Speaker 3: It's so interesting, you say. That's quite perceptive because a
Speaker 3: lot of people in my life are either like me
Speaker 3: who love pop culture and actually take it quite seriously,
Speaker 3: you know. In a way my PhD thesis, which sounds
Speaker 3: so lofty phg theisis but it was kind of about
Speaker 3: pop culture really and representation. So I love marrying those
Speaker 3: two things. I love to think deeply about shows like
Speaker 3: Survivor because I think, like you say, they represent aspects
Speaker 3: of the real world, like high school or the work
Speaker 3: or the modern workplace or your neighborhood. And I think
Speaker 3: Survivors also a deeply intellectual game. It's about politics and
Speaker 3: striking deals and strategy and maths, and so a lot
Speaker 3: of my friends who are watching it with me for
Speaker 3: the first time. In fact, the bunch of friends I
Speaker 3: was watching it with last night, which is my my
Speaker 3: tribal episode, most of them had never seen an episode
Speaker 3: before and they were completely fascinated by it drew really
Speaker 3: strong kind of conclusions, had very strong opinions. I ran
Speaker 3: into another friend recently, Jared, who said he'd never watched
Speaker 3: an episode of Survivor before and very hilariously equipped, and
Speaker 3: now it's become my entire personality. I think people are
Speaker 3: surprised that a reality TV, a reality competition TV show
Speaker 3: can be so smart. And for my screen in writing
Speaker 3: friends who might not work in reality TV, but they
Speaker 3: work in drama in comedy, they're like, Wow, the drama
Speaker 3: in this is incredible. And I think that's testament to
Speaker 3: the producers and the editors of Survivor. They are the heroes,
Speaker 3: the real heroes of this show in finding out. Okay,
Speaker 3: this is a really good thread this week, let's follow
Speaker 3: this thread hard. We've got a protagonist, we've got an obstacle,
Speaker 3: and we've got an enemy, and we've got complications around them.
Speaker 3: If you saw everything that happened out there on the island,
Speaker 3: it would be like how I experienced it, which is
Speaker 3: an absolute hot mess all about hot messes. But you know,
Speaker 3: that's that's not a TV show. That's just you know,
Speaker 3: CCTV footage.
Speaker 1: You know. But that's the interesting thing. If you're going
Speaker 1: to be on television these days and have a show
Speaker 1: as good as this, You've got to be really smart.
Speaker 1: You've got to make this tight. You know, you go
Speaker 1: back to seeing what reality TV look like two decades
Speaker 1: ago in the You need to be fast, you need
Speaker 1: to be sharp, and you need to take people on
Speaker 1: a much faster journey than just allowing people to be
Speaker 1: in a glass box.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this isn't as epic for a reason. You script
Speaker 3: epic stories, and this is what we've got for heroes
Speaker 3: versus villains.
Speaker 1: Well, the casting is brain just before you go, I've
Speaker 1: been asking people, We're not what you know now, but
Speaker 1: you know, when you left the tribal council that night,
Speaker 1: who did you think was going to win Survivor twenty
Speaker 1: twenty three?
Speaker 3: Oh well, who I think will win and who I
Speaker 3: hope will win might be two different answers, but we'll
Speaker 3: take it.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 3: Actually, in some ways I could see Nina winning, and
Speaker 3: I would love for her to win too. She's got
Speaker 3: a great story to tell her mother one as a
Speaker 3: villain in Samoa. Nina's now at twenty two days, which
Speaker 3: is when she was injured and out of the challenge,
Speaker 3: and I'm a big fan of Nina.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'll take that. I love that. And then would
Speaker 1: you ever go back? And if you did go back,
Speaker 1: is there a way in which you would see a
Speaker 1: theme suitable enough for you to return?
Speaker 3: So come back, I'd have to get it past my
Speaker 3: mother and my boyfriend, who both don't want the hospital
Speaker 3: and think I was very lucky to get through this
Speaker 3: season without having done so.
Speaker 1: So that's a negative ghost writer.
Speaker 3: They may look. I'm very persuasive, especially if I've got
Speaker 3: an idol around my neck.
Speaker 1: That's the closest I've ever had to know, though. I've
Speaker 1: been asking everyone as they've come out, and you know,
Speaker 1: everyone's like, dude's got me back on there, and I'm like, wow,
Speaker 1: so I was like crack cocaine. But yeah, I think
Speaker 1: that's the closest for someone saying no.
Speaker 3: No, oh, it's just I need to think about it.
Speaker 3: Love the game. Though I love the game. My immediate
Speaker 3: instinct is, what.
Speaker 1: If the personal trainer said to you when we first chatted,
Speaker 1: you said that the personal trainer didn't know you were
Speaker 1: going into Survivor, but trained you like an athlete. Do
Speaker 1: they have any what's the word for it that Were
Speaker 1: they proud of you in there, thinking that they trained you?
Speaker 1: What was What do they think of your time in there? Oh?
Speaker 3: I think they're just very pleased that my rotator cuff
Speaker 3: is still attacked.
Speaker 1: You were fantastic. I'm sure I'll see you.
Speaker 3: Take good care, let's later