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Speaker 1: So I find that setting rules is really helpful because

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Speaker 1: if you've got rules for something, then it means that

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Speaker 1: you can't negotiate with yourself. And we know from research

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Speaker 1: that if we say that we don't do something, we're

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Speaker 1: fifty percent more likely to stick to it. So, for example,

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Speaker 1: a rule that I will have is that I don't

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Speaker 1: check email until I've done two or one really big

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Speaker 1: deep work sprint. Welcome to How I Work, a show

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Speaker 1: about the tactics used by the world's most successful people

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Speaker 1: to get so much out of their day. I'm your host,

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Speaker 1: doctor Amantha Imba. I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of

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Speaker 1: behavioral science consultancy in Ventium, and I am obsessed with

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Speaker 1: finding ways to optimize my work day. Now, my guest

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Speaker 1: today on today's show is me, So I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to do an introduction for myself because hopefully you're a

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Speaker 1: regular listener and you know a little bit about me.

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Speaker 1: And I was interviewed by my very good friend to

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Speaker 1: Jason Fox, who like me, does a lot of writing, research,

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Speaker 1: keynote speaking, and so on, and also is a fellow

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Speaker 1: science geek. You can find out more about Jace. I've

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Speaker 1: had him on the podcast a couple of times, including

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Speaker 1: the episode that was released last week. So in this chat,

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Speaker 1: I guess this is a check in because I last

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Speaker 1: was a guest on my own show about a year

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Speaker 1: and a half ago, I want to say, and since then,

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Speaker 1: my life has changed dramatically. So we start by talking

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Speaker 1: about that, and also get into why and how I'm

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Speaker 1: doing a hard reset on my own work habits, which

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Speaker 1: on some days are not particularly good. And we yes

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Speaker 1: talk about also some of the things that we are

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Speaker 1: trialing at Inventium, my behavioral science consultancy. So hopefully there's

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Speaker 1: lots of good and interesting and practical stuff in this

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Speaker 1: episode with me as the guest. So on that note,

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Speaker 1: let's go to me to hear about how I work.

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Speaker 2: All right, Well, here we are here. I am back

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Speaker 2: again on your show. I'm so happy to be here, Amantha.

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Speaker 1: Happy to have you here.

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Speaker 2: Cool, So Dodge Jason Fox here with doctor Amantha Imba.

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Speaker 2: It's been about a year and a half, and I

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Speaker 2: know that there's been a few things that have been

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Speaker 2: happening in your world. What's what's give us an update, like,

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Speaker 2: what's what's going on in your world? And what's the

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Speaker 2: last year and a half been like for you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so the last I said, the last year has

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Speaker 1: been big and full of change for me. So the

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Speaker 1: two big changes that happened in my life. So a

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Speaker 1: year ago, a little over a year ago, I stepped

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Speaker 1: down a CEO of Inventium, and my role change. I'm

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Speaker 1: still full time in the business, but I am what

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Speaker 1: I call chief maker. So my job is to make

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Speaker 1: and create, which practically speaking means I spend my weeks

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Speaker 1: still doing client work and of keynote speaking will it

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Speaker 1: be face to face or virtual. I do a lot

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Speaker 1: of writing, a lot of research, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: new product development, so that is kind of what I do.

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Speaker 1: I no longer have any responsibilities for staff. That is

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Speaker 1: the big change from not being CEO.

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Speaker 2: I can't resist. But like, I really like the title

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Speaker 2: chief maker, but particularly because you also made someone you

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Speaker 2: know in chief like CEO.

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Speaker 1: And that's good.

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Speaker 2: I've never thought of a chief maker. A leader is

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Speaker 2: one who creates other leaders or allows other leaders to flourish.

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Speaker 1: Totally what I mean, let's say levels, so that one

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Speaker 1: you know how I got that title. Actually I actually

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Speaker 1: crowdsourced it on LinkedIn. I had no idea what to

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Speaker 1: call myself when I was standing down a CEO and

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Speaker 1: someone suggested that I got so many great suggestions and

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Speaker 1: chief makers.

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Speaker 2: Are a funny thing, aren't they. Yeah, but this is good.

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Speaker 2: It's good.

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Speaker 1: It's good. That's one change to the other big change

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Speaker 1: is that I'm no longer married, So that was a

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Speaker 1: change that happened ten months ago now, so ten months

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Speaker 1: being a single mum. So I have my beautiful six

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Speaker 1: year old daughter Frankie half the time and her dad

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Speaker 1: has her the other half of the time. So that's

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Speaker 1: been a huge change and definitely change for the better.

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Speaker 1: But also there is a lot of stress that comes

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Speaker 1: when you're trying to divide a fourteen year relationship up

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Speaker 1: and all sorts of things involved in there, when you

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Speaker 1: know when you just don't see eye with your partner,

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Speaker 1: which I think is really natural when a relationship ends.

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Speaker 1: So that has been Yeah, I feel like almost managing

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Speaker 1: that sometimes is like my part time job and can

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Speaker 1: make me far less focused and productive than I would

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Speaker 1: like to be.

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Speaker 2: Well, seem each each like there's different chapters of challenges,

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Speaker 2: isn't there. I mean, you're in a lovely place right now,

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Speaker 2: and there's a bit of like the home environments seems

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Speaker 2: to have stabilized, which is which is wonderful. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: I can imagine.

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Speaker 1: Yes, there was definitely a period where we did a

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Speaker 1: thing called birds nesting for five months when we started

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Speaker 1: to separate, And birds nesting is where the child or

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Speaker 1: children stay in the family home and you and your

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Speaker 1: ex partner sub in and sub out. So we rented

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Speaker 1: an apartment near the family home, and my ex and

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Speaker 1: I would basically sub in and sub out every few nights.

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Speaker 1: So there was basically a five month period of my

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Speaker 1: life where I didn't spend more than four nights in

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Speaker 1: the same bed in a row, which is like and

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Speaker 1: we both travel a lot for work, but that did

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Speaker 1: my head in that I felt like I remember that

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Speaker 1: the therapist that I was seeing at the time said

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Speaker 1: I had how did he phrase it, diminished capacity, I

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Speaker 1: think was how he described it. And I'm like, hell, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, me. Were you wearing your aura ring during that time,

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Speaker 2: because that'd been interesting data.

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Speaker 1: No, because it broke right, So yeah, that would have

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Speaker 1: been interesting data. It would have been terrible data. My

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Speaker 1: sleep was really bad for that five month period. I

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Speaker 1: think it's better say, but now I'm stabilized. You know,

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Speaker 1: living in a different suburb now, which I love, in

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Speaker 1: a different house, and it just sort of feels like

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Speaker 1: a reset. So I've been in this place where we're

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Speaker 1: recording this episode for five months and I just feel

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Speaker 1: joyous being here.

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Speaker 2: It's such a lovely space. And in amongst that, yeah,

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Speaker 2: you also had the experiment, the different experiments that you're

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Speaker 2: running as well.

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Speaker 1: So my Year of Better, yeah, that's been a funny one.

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Speaker 1: So I started this concept called my Year of Better

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Speaker 1: where I thought, wouldn't it be great to you know,

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen was a challenging year and lots of changes

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Speaker 1: in my life, and as a psychologist, I come across

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Speaker 1: a lot of strategies that I want to try it

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Speaker 1: out and test and and I was kind of thinking,

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Speaker 1: maybe this will be the next book that I write.

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Speaker 1: So and then I thought maybe I'll open source it

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Speaker 1: and other people can participate in the experiments and then

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Speaker 1: I'll get data and that'll be really cool. And so

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Speaker 1: probably about four experiments, like things are going well, and

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Speaker 1: you know, I think they're about like seventeen hundred or thereabouts.

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Speaker 1: Fellow labrats with me, which shocked me. I thought, oh,

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Speaker 1: maybe I'll get like one hundred people sort of doing

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Speaker 1: this journey with me. Then COVID happened, and that was

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Speaker 1: a funny period where I'm like, do I continue because

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Speaker 1: clearly it's no one's year of better it's everyone's year

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Speaker 1: of works. I mean, you know, we started with the

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Speaker 1: bushfires and that was bad enough, but obviously didn't impact

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Speaker 1: nearly as many people as COVID is impacting worldwide, And

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Speaker 1: so I did decide to continue on, and I will.

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Speaker 1: I must say, I'm feeling a little bit like it

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Speaker 1: needs to freshen up for me in some way. I

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Speaker 1: feel like I'm doing it, but I'm kind of my

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Speaker 1: mind focused on other projects. But I feel an obligation

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Speaker 1: now that I've got these seventeen hundred people that are

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Speaker 1: doing it with me. So I'm in two minds. I

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Speaker 1: think I might pause it after the next experiment.

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Speaker 2: But know what I mean, yeah, yeah, what else has

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Speaker 2: been happening in the past year.

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Speaker 1: So look, I think COVID and everything that that meant

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Speaker 1: has meant a lot of changes for the team Inventium,

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Speaker 1: So where we're basically just throwing out all the assumptions

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Speaker 1: around how we work as a team and trying to

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Speaker 1: go what is possible, like let's let's look at how

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Speaker 1: we can rewrite the rule book on how we can

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Speaker 1: work as so our team shrank a little bit, so

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Speaker 1: we're eight about to bring on a ninth person. So

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Speaker 1: we're sort of at that under ten mark, which I

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Speaker 1: personally love. Like we've been as big as fifteen to

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Speaker 1: twenty and they were probably my least happy years running

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Speaker 1: the business. And I really like a small team for

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Speaker 1: many reasons, And so where and where, and it's.

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Speaker 2: What are some of the reasons you like a small team.

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Speaker 1: I find that when you reach a certain number, and

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Speaker 1: maybe it is that like sharing two pizza rule, that

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Speaker 1: Jeff Bezos kind of thing. It's like click start to form.

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Speaker 1: And I feel like clicks can be a little bit

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Speaker 1: unhealthy when you're still a small business, like clicks and

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Speaker 1: natural if you're a big business or a medium sized business.

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Speaker 1: But I found that they were very unhelpful and quite

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Speaker 1: disruptive and like sort of a bit of in group

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Speaker 1: out group can kind of happen if things aren't managed

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Speaker 1: all that well. And look, I think anytime you bring

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Speaker 1: in a new person to a team, there is a

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Speaker 1: huge risk to culture. And I don't think I fully

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Speaker 1: appreciated this. I thought, you know, culture is relatively fixed

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Speaker 1: and stable over time. But I learned just one poor

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Speaker 1: decision with recruitment can destroy a culture, and it can

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Speaker 1: destroy it very very quickly. And I think as the

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Speaker 1: team grew, I realized the fragility of culture and obviously

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Speaker 1: that is something that can be managed. But I really

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Speaker 1: struggled with that, I think because at the time also

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Speaker 1: I was CEO of the company. It's a lot of

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Speaker 1: people to be managing in inverted commas. We do run

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Speaker 1: a holocracy, so nobody has a manager per se, but

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Speaker 1: it is a lot of people to be thinking about

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Speaker 1: and giving feedback to and coaching and mentoring and performance

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Speaker 1: management where where that's needed. Like, that's a lot of headspace,

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Speaker 1: and communication is harder. It's it's very, very different when

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Speaker 1: you're communicating to eight people versus fifteen or twenty, which

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Speaker 1: sounds weird because people working in corporates will be like,

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Speaker 1: well that's small either way. But I've found as a

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Speaker 1: small business owner it's totally different.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. You can even imagine, you know, going into a restaurant,

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Speaker 2: you know, just filing in. If it's more than nine,

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Speaker 2: you could probably fit around the table together, but more

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Speaker 2: than that starts to split off into different groups. So

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Speaker 2: what are you doing at the moment to kind of

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Speaker 2: look after the team or how's the team looking after

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Speaker 2: each other during COVID nineteen and everything that's happening at

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Speaker 2: the moment.

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Speaker 1: The team have been amazing. It's a really great time

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Speaker 1: to have a team with no ego because people have

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Speaker 1: genuinely mucked in and done things that are just so

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Speaker 1: not their job. But we're just it's like, this is

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Speaker 1: what we need to do, and everyone is just getting

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Speaker 1: in there and getting their hands dirty, which has been great.

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Speaker 1: I would say we've really got a team of m paths,

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Speaker 1: so people check in with each other constantly, I think

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Speaker 1: is the case, so everyone would feel that at least someone,

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Speaker 1: if not multiple people really have their back, which I

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Speaker 1: think makes very big difference. And I think that like

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Speaker 1: there are little rituals that we have, Like I feel

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Speaker 1: like we've found a good rhythm of how often we

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Speaker 1: need to connect as a whole team. So where our

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Speaker 1: current rhythm as a team. We'll do a Monday meetings

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Speaker 1: sort of in the middle of the day, and that's

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Speaker 1: kind of like what are the important things that are

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Speaker 1: going on that we need to make decisions on discussions

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Speaker 1: to be had. Then Wednesday we have virtual lunch together,

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Speaker 1: which is optional, so like if you're really under the pump,

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Speaker 1: you don't have to join, but most people have been

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Speaker 1: joining and that's just really nice. And then Friday is

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Speaker 1: kind of another look. If they're important things going on

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Speaker 1: that we need to discuss, we can use part of Friday.

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Speaker 1: And then someone will take responsibility for doing some kind

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Speaker 1: of fun game, which has been anything from like charades

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Speaker 1: or Pictionary, to Wheel of Fortune to Prices Right and

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Speaker 1: all sorts of fun stuff, and that's super fun. I

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Speaker 1: haven't won very many things which praise me, but I

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Speaker 1: try to pretend to.

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Speaker 2: Friendship group.

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Speaker 1: That doesn't have it in the tech they definitely don't

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Speaker 1: let me win. So that's felt like a really good rhythm.

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Speaker 1: And then something else that we've started trying, which I

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Speaker 1: actually got from a chat that I had with Miya

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Speaker 1: Friedman from Mom and Maya, who I had back on

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Speaker 1: the podcast a few weeks ago, and she mentioned that

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Speaker 1: when COVID hit, how she started her management meetings was

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Speaker 1: with a check in out of ten. So they do

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Speaker 1: a lap of the group, which I think is like

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Speaker 1: eight or nine people and basically everyone would give a

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Speaker 1: score out of ten for their how they're feeling about

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Speaker 1: work and how they feeling about their personal life. And

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Speaker 1: she said it was just a really good way of

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Speaker 1: making sure no one went under the radar, just getting

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Speaker 1: a read on everyone. So I wanted to do that

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Speaker 1: as an experiment with my team, and so we did

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Speaker 1: it for three meetings where everyone gave a score out

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Speaker 1: of ten and you could give context if you wanted,

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Speaker 1: and if you didn't want, you didn't have to. But

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Speaker 1: everyone ended up giving context. And I found and I

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Speaker 1: know because I've asked everyone to just email me directly

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Speaker 1: with whether they want to continue. People have loved it,

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Speaker 1: Like I haven't got anyone say no, that was terrible,

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Speaker 1: and it made me feel way too exposed and vulnerable,

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Speaker 1: Like it's just it's been such a beautiful but brief

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Speaker 1: way of just checking in with everyone.

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Speaker 2: Does everyone qualify their number or is it only that's

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Speaker 2: like a really higher, really low number, But everyone qualified,

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Speaker 2: I guess, even for like seven out of tens. Yes, okay, right, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I know some folks listening to this things, oh that

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Speaker 2: sounds really lovely, But then there might be a concern

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Speaker 2: what happens if twenty thirty minutes of the meeting, how

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Speaker 2: do you allow for depth without it feeling rushed or anything,

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Speaker 2: or is that something that the that the folks you know,

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Speaker 2: kind of pick up on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting because it takes so for the eight

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Speaker 1: of us, it takes about ten minutes or so. And

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Speaker 1: I feel like I would start by role modeling. And

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Speaker 1: I feel like if you can start by role modeling,

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Speaker 1: then people kind of know what is you know, kind

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Speaker 1: of appropriate in terms of time, I guess, And I'm

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Speaker 1: just trying to think. People tend not to ask probing questions.

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Speaker 1: It is just sort of okay, a chance to share

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Speaker 1: as opposed to a chance to discuss, right, So, and

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Speaker 1: then I think what then happens? What I found is

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Speaker 1: that I will pick up on things that I've heard

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Speaker 1: in other conversations that I'm having with my team outside

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Speaker 1: of team meeting.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so if someone kind of shares a low number,

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Speaker 2: it wouldn't trigger like going into that right there on

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Speaker 2: the spot. It would be more like it.

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Speaker 1: Would be like, I'm just going to make a mental

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Speaker 1: note of that. I might give that per and a

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Speaker 1: call if I think that they would find that helpful

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Speaker 1: and if it's like a constant line number, like if

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Speaker 1: there's a pattern emerging, then I'd be like, okay, I

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Speaker 1: need to probably do something.

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Speaker 2: Makes sense. Good to check in with folks before just

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Speaker 2: getting straight to business as usually. Yeah, I mean you're

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Speaker 2: always experimenting with different things. I love it, Like, you know,

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Speaker 2: I don't know how many years you've had since unlimitedly,

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Speaker 2: which is one of the things that people loved to

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Speaker 2: asking questions about, but like, what other experiments have you

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Speaker 2: got going on with the team and the way you

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Speaker 2: guys work.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so we're thinking about office space. So right now,

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Speaker 1: we've got most of us are located in Melbourne, in

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Speaker 1: and around Melbourne, got someone in Sydney, someone in Port Macquarie,

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Speaker 1: and we've got offices in Melbourne and Sydney. So we

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Speaker 1: when COVID hit and we were trying to really just

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Speaker 1: strip out expenses as a business then to get through it.

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Speaker 1: So we're like, do we even need our Melbourne and

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Speaker 1: Sydney offices. We were literally in the process of renegotiating

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Speaker 1: our least for another three years in Melbourne where we've

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Speaker 1: been in the same space for six years now, and

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Speaker 1: they we're like, why do we even need an office.

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Speaker 1: We've all been working remotely since probably the beginning of March.

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Speaker 1: We were a little bit early, and yeah, so where

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Speaker 1: so we won't At the moment, we're thinking we probably

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Speaker 1: won't have a permanent fixed address anywhere, and then we're

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Speaker 1: thinking about, okay, so what does that look like When

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Speaker 1: we're getting together as a team, we're thinking, you know,

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Speaker 1: we're playing with different ideas. We haven't made a decision yet.

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Speaker 1: We've still got leases till Christmas, but like could for example,

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Speaker 1: we get together once every six weeks for a face

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Speaker 1: to face a sprint in some way, shape or form

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Speaker 1: where we kind of do hardcore collaboration in maybe subgroups.

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Speaker 1: Or do we all work from the same location every Friday,

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Speaker 1: or are we just connected by a constant zoom feed

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Speaker 1: for one day a week or something like that. So

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Speaker 1: we've got a few experiments in mind and we're just

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Speaker 1: trying to land on what we'll do first there. But

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Speaker 1: probably the biggest experiment that we are going to try,

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Speaker 1: which kicks off next week actually beginning of the new

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Speaker 1: financial year and will be a six month experiment, is

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Speaker 1: trying the four day work week. So for those I

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Speaker 1: know that some people hear that and they're like, oh, so,

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Speaker 1: what does that mean. Does that mean like you're doing

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Speaker 1: a thirty eight hour week in four days? No, so

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Speaker 1: what it means. But that is the common response. But

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Speaker 1: I tell people about this, Yeah, yeah, that's right. How

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Speaker 1: we do so? No, so what the four day work

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Speaker 1: week is? And I had Andrew Barnes from Perpetual Guardian

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Speaker 1: on the show a few months ago, who I guess

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Speaker 1: is kind of like the founder of the movement if

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Speaker 1: you like globally, is what it is. It's one hundred

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Speaker 1: percent pay as if you are a full time worker,

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Speaker 1: work done in eighty percent of the time, so four

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Speaker 1: days with one hundred percent productivity or output as you

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Speaker 1: would achieve in five days. So his thing is one

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Speaker 1: hundred eighty one hundred. So how we're positioning it is

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Speaker 1: that it it is opt in. We've had a lot

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Speaker 1: of conversations as a team. It's very much the print

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Speaker 1: because we have had to with unlimited leave or rebalanced

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Speaker 1: leave as we called it. We had no guidelines and

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Speaker 1: just intent, and that worked fine for three years and

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Speaker 1: then it went off the rails in the final year

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Speaker 1: and then we have to sort of put some more

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Speaker 1: guidelines in place. What we're doing now is we've gone

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Speaker 1: quite detailed with how we've thought about it. It's been

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Speaker 1: co created as a team. That was a really important

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Speaker 1: lesson from Andrew that he talks about it's not for

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Speaker 1: management to dictate this, it's as a team. Let's co

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Speaker 1: create how we're going to make this work. And I'm

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Speaker 1: really excited. So essentially Friday is going to be the

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Speaker 1: day off and no one is obliged to take it.

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Speaker 1: We're calling it the Gift of the fifth which I

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Speaker 1: like because it's like it's it's the gift of time. Yes,

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Speaker 1: if you've had a really productive frae.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, gift is nice. It's like a gratitude in

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Speaker 2: amongst it. So it isn't taken for granted. Justin Arden

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Speaker 2: from New Zealand perim I was talking about she mentioned

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Speaker 2: four day work week and stuff like that, and so

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Speaker 2: once again you're one of the early pioneers in this

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Speaker 2: in this field, I always when I get excited about

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Speaker 2: ida idea like this, there's part of my mind that

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Speaker 2: wants to go to the pre mortum, like, where could

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Speaker 2: this go wrong?

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Speaker 1: We did that? Yeah? Right, we spent We spent a

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Speaker 1: couple of hours doing a pre mortem as a team.

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Speaker 1: So we thought about everything that could go wrong and

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Speaker 1: everything that could go right as well. And I was

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Speaker 1: in the what could go wrong group, which I was

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Speaker 1: reflecting on this with someone the other day and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I'm like naturally, like a very enthusiastic optimist, and it

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Speaker 1: was for very weird and unnatural and quite icky to

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Speaker 1: be going what are all the things that could go wrong?

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Speaker 1: And that was and I'm like, oh gosh.

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Speaker 2: Some people to be a party paper Like, We're not

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Speaker 2: like trying to, it's just it's just good to kind

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Speaker 2: of get a proactive sensor what we need to look

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Speaker 2: out for critical thinking. So what did you? What did you?

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Speaker 2: Because it's such a beautiful idea. It seems to harken

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Speaker 2: back to the what was that someone had said once?

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Speaker 2: You know, imagine eight hours sleep, eight hours work, and

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Speaker 2: eight hours of restern recreation or whatever it is, Like

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Speaker 2: that seems so noble, and it seems like in the

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Speaker 2: past decade, because of where tech and everything else is gone,

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Speaker 2: we've just gone into this hyper productive working all hours

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Speaker 2: whenever we can. And so this is a really lovely

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Speaker 2: pushback on this automatic trend. Into just constant work all

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Speaker 2: the time. So it's going to take some adjusting though,

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Speaker 2: Like it is, Yeah, what are you foreseeing some of

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Speaker 2: the traps or some of the things that you're just

401
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Speaker 2: going to be mindful of as you navigate this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting for me personally, and then I think, well,

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Speaker 1: if it's for me personally, it's probably for the team

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Speaker 1: as well. As it's like you can't expect to just

405
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Speaker 1: keep working how you've been working, and as a team,

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Speaker 1: like where we're productive. I mean, we teach this stuff

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Speaker 1: to our clients. Everyone is hyper aware of their chronotype

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Speaker 1: when they do their best work. Everyone blocks out deep

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Speaker 1: work in the diary. We're much more productive teament exactly. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so it's going, Okay, how do we take that

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Speaker 1: to the next level as a team, which is a challenge,

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Speaker 1: But equally, like I look at myself and I mean

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Speaker 1: I spend my days researching and talking about concepts like

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Speaker 1: focus and productivity and how do we fight against digital distraction?

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Speaker 1: And I think with just how full my plate is

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Speaker 1: from just from like non work, like personal life stresses

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Speaker 1: and you know, and being a single mother part time

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Speaker 1: is challenging, Like even just last week Frankie had a

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Speaker 1: cough on Wednesday morning and that's like our handover day,

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Speaker 1: and I dropped her over on Wednesday lunchtime, and I'm like, well,

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Speaker 1: I got to I got to go find time to

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Speaker 1: get a COVID test for Frankie if she's got a cough,

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Speaker 1: because I felt like that would be just irresponsible as

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Speaker 1: a member of the school community to just go, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's just a cough and if it gets better, then

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Speaker 1: we'll just assume that's fine. I was like, no, that's

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Speaker 1: not fine. So I finished my meetings, which is a

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Speaker 1: challenge when you kind of have these unplanned moments of Okay,

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Speaker 1: my six year old is going to be at home, Well,

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Speaker 1: I've got meetings, so let me deal with that. Like

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Speaker 1: with homeschooling, I could be a bit more organized. And

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Speaker 1: I had the help of an amazing nanny during that,

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Speaker 1: so coped not too badly. But I'm like, okay, I

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Speaker 1: just need to rearrange my afternoon make time. God knows

435
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 1: how long I'm going to be waiting in line to

436
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,080
Speaker 1: get a COVID test at the drive through. Did that

437
00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:31,439
Speaker 1: We actually got through straight away and tried to not

438
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:36,120
Speaker 1: project my fear and anxiety onto Frankie as she got

439
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:40,120
Speaker 1: things stuck in her facial orifices. But she was so

440
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,040
Speaker 1: good about it. And then and then the waiting starts

441
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 1: where I'm like, Frankie, we can't hug and Frankie, don't

442
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,360
Speaker 1: go into the kitchen. Treat me as your kitchen slave

443
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,879
Speaker 1: until we get the results back. And it was just awful,

444
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,400
Speaker 1: and it's like, you know, every minute, it's like, how

445
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:58,639
Speaker 1: do you stay off your phone when you're expecting COVID

446
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 1: results for your daughter for your household? So and then

447
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:07,440
Speaker 1: they of course came through Friday afternoon when she's not

448
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:11,520
Speaker 1: going back to school, and they were negative, so and

449
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:15,400
Speaker 1: that was a big relief. So just things like that

450
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,440
Speaker 1: pop up, and when you're a single mother, it's like, well,

451
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 1: you just have to deal with it. Like on the Thursday,

452
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 1: when Frankie was home from school, I had a virtual

453
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:29,200
Speaker 1: keynote to seven hundred financial professionals and I'm like, how

454
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 1: is this going to work when I've got Frankie on

455
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 1: the loose? And so how we then did it? Because

456
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 1: my parents are socially isolating from Frankie because they're in

457
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 1: a high risk group, and so they're like, why don't

458
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,120
Speaker 1: we read to Frankie via Zoom and that will keep

459
00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,679
Speaker 1: her occupied and she can do that upstairs in her bedroom,

460
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 1: and I'll be downstairs in the study doing the virtual

461
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 1: keynote and crossing my fingers. And then I'm doing the

462
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 1: keynote and I get a text message from Dad going, ah,

463
00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 1: the internet connections really unstable in Frankie's room, and I'm thinking, what,

464
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 1: I can't respond to this. I'm live to seven hundred people.

465
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,440
Speaker 2: Did you let the people know live what the context

466
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:08,239
Speaker 2: of what was happening? Right?

467
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,119
Speaker 1: I didn't, because I think I had them doing some activity,

468
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 1: and I just like I felt my I normally put

469
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 1: my watch on do not disturb during these things, but

470
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,920
Speaker 1: I didn't, just you know, just in case. And I'm like, oh,

471
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:24,120
Speaker 1: my goodness, it's doing that because I'm on high definition Zoom.

472
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 1: The internet connection turns out it's very bad in Frankie's bedroom.

473
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Just going into that moment there, because

474
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 2: that stuff can throw you right when you get a

475
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,440
Speaker 2: text mess. How did you manage in that?

476
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 1: I just thought, well, what's the worst that could happen?

477
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:41,880
Speaker 1: Frankie comes in and she joins.

478
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,119
Speaker 2: Me in the can audience. Yeah, yeah, that charming experience.

479
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,400
Speaker 1: Charming Little Frankie was in frame, and I'm like, say hi,

480
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 1: say by Frankie off you go. So yeah, stuff like

481
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,639
Speaker 1: that happens. But also because my head's been full with

482
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 1: you know, like the division of two lives, I just

483
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 1: find and so just with the news, like I'm not

484
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,399
Speaker 1: someone who consumes the news. I do slow news on

485
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 1: the weekend with newspapers, I get the age delivered, but

486
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,919
Speaker 1: otherwise I just don't read the news. My philosophy is

487
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,639
Speaker 1: that if something important is happening, somebody will tell me

488
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 1: about it. But since COVID, and because particularly in the

489
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,640
Speaker 1: early days in March, where just new policies and things

490
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 1: were being announced literally every hour that had an impact

491
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 1: on business, I got into really bad habits about checking

492
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 1: the news several times a day, which I can't remember

493
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 1: the last time I've done that. And I think because

494
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,880
Speaker 1: of other distractions and just things essentially eating away at

495
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:40,159
Speaker 1: my wheel power and needing to be quite reactive to

496
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 1: certain emails and things going on outside of work, I

497
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 1: just found that so many bad habits were creeping into

498
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,159
Speaker 1: my life, which I definitely still have good days, but

499
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:50,880
Speaker 1: then I'd have a lot of bad days. Where I'd

500
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 1: feel like a complete hypocrite that here I am talking

501
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 1: about productivity and I'm buried in my inbox all day,

502
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,919
Speaker 1: which just feels terrible because I kind of like to

503
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 1: think of myself as someone that actually walks the talk.

504
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 1: So for me thinking about four day work week, it's

505
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 1: like I'm looking at doing like like on a computer

506
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 1: where you do a hard reset. It's like, that's what

507
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,199
Speaker 1: I'm doing with myself. So I've been thinking about what

508
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 1: are the changes that I need to make to make

509
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:19,359
Speaker 1: a four day work week work.

510
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 2: I mean, I think a lot of folks can relate

511
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 2: to the experience that you shed. I mean, I add

512
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:25,879
Speaker 2: the same thing with a news cycle and a bunch

513
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 2: of other bad habits crept in. I think it's really

514
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 2: heartening for folks to hear. And what's going to be

515
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 2: interesting to hear is what you're doing or how like,

516
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 2: how are you're going to how you're what you're attempting

517
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,680
Speaker 2: to do to recover from some of the bad habits

518
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 2: kind of taking hold again. But before we go into that,

519
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 2: I'm just like this for our four day work week,

520
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 2: Does that mean then that you're doing your Friday ritual

521
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 2: on Thursday? And is that like the shutdown ritual for

522
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 2: the week for the team or that yes.

523
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 1: I'm not sure actually what we're going to do about

524
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 1: our Friday team meeting, it probably will all moved to

525
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 1: Thursday afternoon.

526
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 2: I suspect, and do you have you kind of said

527
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 2: to the team okay, because I I can't imagine some

528
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 2: fasto me and that's all right. So the Friday is

529
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 2: like a gift day, but use your time wisely and

530
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 2: we want you to be, you know, investing in your

531
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 2: learning and stuff and you know, staying like have you

532
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 2: have you gotten like suggestive around what people should do

533
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 2: with that Friday or is it more like I guess,

534
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 2: I guess no, knowing how you recruit like it's it's

535
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:30,880
Speaker 2: it's very.

536
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,640
Speaker 1: It's very open. So how we've done it. I love

537
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 1: the name Gift of the Fifth so mishaw CEO came

538
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,400
Speaker 1: up with that, and it's thinking about it like, look,

539
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 1: it is inventiums the company's gift to you if you

540
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,120
Speaker 1: want to take it. And that's important because I feel

541
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 1: like with so many of these like perks in inverted commas,

542
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 1: they can become taken for granted and just expected, and

543
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 1: this becomes my right, like it is my right to

544
00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 1: have unlimited paid leave. No, no, it's not. You're right.

545
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 1: This is a gift, and the naming is very deliver it.

546
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,680
Speaker 1: But also the gift of time can be a gift

547
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: that you can give to other people. So it can

548
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 1: be a gift to your family so that you can

549
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 1: spend more time with them. It can be a gift

550
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: to maybe you want to do volunteer, or it can

551
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,640
Speaker 1: be a gift to yourself to just recharge and relax.

552
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:17,439
Speaker 1: It can be a gift back to the company if

553
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,639
Speaker 1: you choose to do some unconscious pondering about problems. So

554
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 1: we're asking people like it's literally it's broad.

555
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 2: I guess it's going to be really key for your

556
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 2: team and for others attempting this, for their family and

557
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 2: friends to know. Well, I don't know however they frame it,

558
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 2: but like I know that if it was happen, like

559
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 2: you could have friends and famili starting to think, oh,

560
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 2: you've got Fridays off now and stuff, and then suddenly

561
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 2: things automatically get booked in. So I guess they're going

562
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 2: to have to kind of think about how they are.

563
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: I don't think they would because nobody else has Friday

564
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 1: off unless you're let's say, like a stay at home parent,

565
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: perhaps like there might be that, but otherwise the rest

566
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: of the world of working as far as I know,

567
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 1: like unless you're tired.

568
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 2: Or yeah, okay, all right, let's go back to it.

569
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 2: Like in the confessional, what are the bad habits have

570
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 2: kind of slipped in these times? I kind of want

571
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 2: to get a sense of this just so I love

572
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 2: it because it's like after I don't know how many

573
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 2: episodes have you done so far?

574
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 1: Gosh, I'm two years in so and I released twice

575
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 1: a week, but some are repeats, so I don't know

576
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 1: more than a hundred, I don't know a couple of hundred,

577
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 1: ye something.

578
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 2: So we're hearing the like the wondrous, Theamantha with all

579
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 2: of her like productivity, genius and you know, clever, creative,

580
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 2: innovative ways of getting getting good work done. So this

581
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 2: is going to be like lovely to get a glimpse

582
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 2: into that. It's really quite humanizing. I want to hear,

583
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 2: like some of the other bad habits was really heartening personally,

584
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 2: Like that news thing, I was like far out, Yeah,

585
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 2: I had that thing too, and it just if it

586
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 2: screws with your head, and then I kind of want

587
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 2: to get into a shift around what's working for you?

588
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 2: What are some of the things you're getting in motion now?

589
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 2: So yeah, this has gone on.

590
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 1: Look, i find email is my biggest achilles here. I

591
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 1: do love Superhuman, my email client, but and I'm also

592
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 1: excited about Hey dot com, which we spoke about from

593
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 1: the makers of base Camp, which I've signed up for. Ye,

594
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 1: email is my problem, Like I'm not I'm you know,

595
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 1: not on social media still, I you know, I'm yet

596
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: just literally not on Facebook or Insta. LinkedIn and Twitter

597
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 1: are purely for sharing content as opposed to consuming, so

598
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: there's no issues there. It really is just email. I

599
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 1: think the most important thing for me is that email

600
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 1: never came back on my phone and so therefore, if

601
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 1: I'm away from my laptop, I'm not an email, which

602
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 1: is helpful, but too often, like too many mornings, I

603
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: would start my day with email, which is starting your

604
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 1: day reactively and not useful. And you know, I would

605
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 1: have my reasons for that. I might be expecting something

606
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: that I would class as like an urgent or important

607
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 1: thing that I'm waiting on that I don't want to

608
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 1: wait till I've done my deep work. But ultimately a

609
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 1: two hour wait after I've done my deep work is

610
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 1: not going to really kill me at all. Also, just

611
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 1: something I find on a practical note, just I have

612
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,959
Speaker 1: no solution for this problem but my phone. So I

613
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 1: do go to my phone. My phone sleeps downstairs. I

614
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 1: sleep upstairs, but I when I come downstairs after I've

615
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:26,959
Speaker 1: gotten dressed into my gym gifts. So I now have

616
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 1: a little gym set up in my garage. So I

617
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 1: literally do not require the outside world to have a

618
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 1: coffee machine.

619
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 2: I'm set.

620
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 1: I don't need to eencoage you with anything outside. So

621
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,239
Speaker 1: I have a personal trainer that's based in Utah, as

622
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 1: in Utah, America, and so she does my programming from

623
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: Afar and will have Skype chats. And I've essentially got

624
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 1: a virtual trainer who I've been working with for a

625
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 1: year and a half now, who I adore. And my

626
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 1: programming is on an app. And so because I five

627
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 1: mornings a week, I'm doing gym work, and I need

628
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 1: my mobile phone so that I can have my program

629
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 1: and enter my reps and sets, which is really annoying

630
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 1: because then I'll check my messages and WhatsApp and like

631
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 1: I'm starting my day with messages, which I don't like,

632
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 1: but I just the temptations there. And I'm not quite

633
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 1: sure because I can't delete. I think I can delete WhatsApp,

634
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 1: but I can't delete the messages app. Yeah I could

635
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 1: hide it, but I could probably use software blocker like

636
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 1: Freedom to block myself from it.

637
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, and it's so easy to slip into. Yeah,

638
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 2: that habits.

639
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 1: So I don't like that. That's not good. But yeah,

640
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 1: it's email. It's getting myself out of email and just

641
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: getting away from that false sense of progress that email

642
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 1: gives you. And when you're having a stressful day, it

643
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 1: can feel really good being in your inbox. And I

644
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 1: recently I had Jake Knapp back on the show. We

645
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: did a couple of episodes together. So the co author,

646
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: co founder of Science Sprints and also the author of

647
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: Make Time So Global Productivity Expert, and he was talking

648
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 1: about the exact same thing is his achilles heel. And

649
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: even though he writes and speaks about productivity, emails the

650
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 1: killer for him. And so it's all about how do

651
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:09,719
Speaker 1: you sort of get around that?

652
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 2: So when did you have him?

653
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 1: I had him on, interviewed him a few weeks ago.

654
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 2: He was saying that during COVID and everything emails kind

655
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 2: of come back.

656
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, possibly pre COVID as well. Yes, yes, So

657
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: for me, I find so something that I will be

658
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 1: doing firstly is I feel like I just need to

659
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 1: do a reset on just being really clear on my goals.

660
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 1: And that also helps with motivation because if I'm clear

661
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 1: on what are my goals, so we work on a

662
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 1: six monthly rhythm and invent him. We use okayrs objectives

663
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 1: and key results like Google and Intel, and we all

664
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 1: set those ourselves, and so we have control and so

665
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: we can set things that we're excited about. I'm excited

666
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: about mine. I am now going to be really disciplined

667
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 1: in working backwards and going, Okay, what does that mean?

668
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: What do I need to be by the end of

669
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 1: the quarter. Then how do I break that down into

670
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 1: a monthly rhythm, And then how do I break that

671
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: down even further into a weekly rhythm so I can

672
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 1: be really clear what progress do I need to make

673
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 1: towards my goals this week, so that I'll feel that

674
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:13,959
Speaker 1: sense of meaningful progress. But also I won't feel guilt

675
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 1: about taking Friday off. So I'm working under the assumption

676
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 1: that I won't work Fridays, but it's there if I

677
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,320
Speaker 1: need it as a buffer, maybe for one or two hours.

678
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,720
Speaker 1: So just getting really focused on my goals and planning

679
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 1: my week with like what are the big pieces of

680
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: deep work that need to happen, and prioritizing those.

681
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:33,720
Speaker 2: So when you say prioritizing that is that like, okay,

682
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 2: you take some time you reflecting or whatever, and you're

683
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,879
Speaker 2: working out, Okay, what's important? Do you then have that

684
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 2: visible somewhere and how do you prevent yourself from getting

685
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 2: too optimistic early in the week about what can be achieved?

686
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,360
Speaker 2: And then you know, stuff happens and then Friday morning comet.

687
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 1: So I've got like a bit of a weird system

688
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 1: at the moment. I do use time boxing, which is

689
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 1: where essentially I'll block a meeting with myself for the

690
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: task that I want to work on ima diary, so

691
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 1: it look like a meeting, but the meeting might have

692
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 1: a title, you know, write article for business inside or

693
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 1: whatever I'm doing. And then and I'll typically time box

694
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 1: twenty four hours in advance. Normally I will overestimate how

695
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 1: long something takes, but if something does run over, then

696
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 1: I'll shift it to the next day. But then what

697
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 1: I like to do is I also like to be

698
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:23,800
Speaker 1: quite tactile as well. So I'll have post it notes

699
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 1: with the week's worth of deep work and then I'll

700
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,399
Speaker 1: kind of like move them like to a different pile

701
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: for the ones that I'm working on on any given day,

702
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 1: and then when I've done it, I like scrunch it

703
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 1: up and I feel that, like for success, I've done that.

704
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 1: I've done that far better than ticking something off.

705
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, I like that. So how long does this, Hewlen?

706
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,959
Speaker 2: Is that weekly planning session take, or like the goal

707
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 2: setting thing or that what was like not long?

708
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:51,839
Speaker 1: Maybe ten minutes, five ten minutes? And then I find

709
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 1: that my stress reduces because sometimes I can feel like,

710
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 1: oh my god, I feel really behind. I've got all

711
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,359
Speaker 1: this work and now like thinking I've only got four

712
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 1: days to do this work. Oh, that feels really stressful.

713
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 1: But as soon as I go through that planning process,

714
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 1: everything feels more under control. And then I can also

715
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 1: challenge deadlines, Like at the moment, I'm thinking through this

716
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 1: new framework for a big new project that we're launching

717
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 1: in a couple of months, and that's requiring some really

718
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 1: intense research and thinking, and my deadlines are more self

719
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: imposed than real deadlines, and so I just know that

720
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:30,840
Speaker 1: there's a bit of flexibility if I'm really struggling to

721
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: get to something, or if just like shit happens in

722
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 1: my life and a day becomes a write off, like

723
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: you know, the COVID week last week, two and a

724
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 1: half days become a write off. So there's kind of

725
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,800
Speaker 1: flexibility built into the system as well.

726
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, getting that in the rhythm and therefore, and what

727
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 2: about the phone situation, like like the emails in the

728
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 2: morning and things like that, was what do you reckon?

729
00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 2: You'll do with regards to that.

730
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 1: So I find that setting rules is really helpful because

731
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 1: if you've got rules for something, then it means that

732
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 1: you can't negotiate with yourself.

733
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 2: So I love negotiating with myself. I've burned so much energy.

734
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 1: And oh god, time and energy that can be taken

735
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 1: up with self negotiation. So that is not helpful. And

736
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 1: we know from research that if we say that we

737
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 1: don't do something, we're fifty percent more likely to stick

738
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 1: to it. So, for example, a rule that I will

739
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 1: have is that I don't check email until I've done

740
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 1: two or one really big deep work sprint. So I

741
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 1: used to have it in terms of hours, so I'd say,

742
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 1: I don't check email before lunch, and I used to

743
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 1: have an auto responder that said that. But what I'd

744
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 1: find is like, if I don't have Frankie on a morning,

745
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 1: i might start work at seven thirty or eight, and

746
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 1: I'll be done with my deep work by ten, and

747
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 1: then I'll feel like, oh, I'm kind of like a

748
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,760
Speaker 1: hypocrite because I'm mean an email at ten and I

749
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 1: tell people don't check it before lunch, but I've actually

750
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 1: done my deep work, so I'm legitimately in my inbox,

751
00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,280
Speaker 1: but I feel like a bit of a fraud staff.

752
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:01,799
Speaker 1: And so now the rule that I think will serve

753
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 1: me better is I just I don't check email until

754
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 1: I've done my most important deep work sprints, which might

755
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 1: be one or two or maybe three sprints depending on

756
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 1: how I've mapped out my week. So I think that

757
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 1: for me is going to be very important.

758
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 2: Okay, cool, So like the goals, some rules, anything else

759
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 2: that you're thinking about cultivating and yeah.

760
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 1: So so some other things is that I'm thinking of

761
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 1: changing my workflow around email. So firstly, actually just being

762
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 1: strict in terms of scheduling time in my diary for

763
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 1: emails and probably experimenting with maybe three twenty to thirty

764
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 1: minute blocks a day. And then I had Laura May Martin,

765
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 1: who's the executive productivity advisor at Google on the show,

766
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 1: and she she was amazing. I loved my chat with her.

767
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 1: And she has held a lot about email management with

768
00:38:57,600 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 1: the context of Gmail, but it can be applied to

769
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 1: any email program, and how she thinks about it is basically,

770
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 1: don't dip in and out. She has this great metaphor

771
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 1: about email being like a clothes dryer, and you wouldn't

772
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 1: go to your clothes dryer all throughout the day and

773
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 1: pick out one item and then close it and then

774
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 1: put that away and then pick out another item. It's like,

775
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 1: you know, that's silly. So how she does she she

776
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 1: will stick to an inbox zero principle, so she'll basically

777
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,399
Speaker 1: process everything coming in her inbox and then she'll put it,

778
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 1: she'll delete her archive, or she'll put it into one

779
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,919
Speaker 1: of three buckets. So there's a to do bucket, which

780
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,879
Speaker 1: is basically items that require you to do something that's

781
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 1: in your control. So it's like me plus time, the

782
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 1: second bucket is the waiting bucket, where there's like some

783
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 1: sort of follow up, so you need to keep it

784
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 1: in mind, but it's kind of the action is in

785
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,399
Speaker 1: someone else's court, but you sort of just still need

786
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 1: to check on it. And then there's a red bucket,

787
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,799
Speaker 1: and so she would basically process her emails anything that

788
00:39:57,840 --> 00:39:59,800
Speaker 1: comes in into one of those buckets, and then you

789
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 1: her equivalent of deep work time, she'd go through the

790
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 1: to do bucket and say during a shallow work time

791
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 1: like in the early afternoon, she might go into the

792
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 1: read bucket and process that. So it's really systematic, and

793
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 1: I feel like that would be a big improvement in

794
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,760
Speaker 1: terms of the chaotic way that I currently process my email,

795
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 1: So that will be that would be big. Something else

796
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,919
Speaker 1: I've been finding very helpful because we're just like we're

797
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 1: so we're sitting so much, like there's not even the

798
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 1: commute to the office where there's incidental walking going on,

799
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:35,320
Speaker 1: or you know, like walking maybe like half a flaw's

800
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 1: length to the bathroom. It just incidental things like that.

801
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 1: We're so immobile now, is that I try to make

802
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: as many of my meetings as possible phone meetings, and

803
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 1: I have a rule where I walk. If I'm doing

804
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 1: a phone meeting, I walk like it might just be

805
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,799
Speaker 1: doing laps of my home. Sometimes it'll be walking around

806
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:54,799
Speaker 1: the block in the fresh air. But I find that

807
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 1: movement and it produces a different quality of thinking and

808
00:40:58,200 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 1: it just makes sure that I'm not turning.

809
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,919
Speaker 2: I never really liked phone meetings that much, but now

810
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 2: that there's been so many video meetings, I'm my, gosh,

811
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 2: give me a phone meeting, right because yeah, you can

812
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 2: be moving around and it's different kind of intimacy on

813
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 2: the call too, which I kind of like. And this

814
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 2: is a nice segue because I'm like, cool, We've got

815
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 2: to like there's some quite you know, the productivity things,

816
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:21,759
Speaker 2: but like what about beyond the realms of work and

817
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 2: stuff like that, in terms of like just things that

818
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 2: are revitalizing you. What are you finding that's working for

819
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 2: you in like the broader spectrum of life that you're

820
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 2: really loving or enjoying right now?

821
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, I think for me, probably several things that

822
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,240
Speaker 1: I find are just the really important things that I need.

823
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 1: And my my rhythm is very dependent on when I've

824
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 1: got Frankie when I don't, So every second weekend I've

825
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 1: got Frankie and we've kind of developed our own kind

826
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 1: of rhythms for the weekend, which typically we've gotten into

827
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 1: a lego building ritual. So Saturday morning is always building

828
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:02,360
Speaker 1: some lego creation, which is super fun, sometimes more enjoyable

829
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,919
Speaker 1: for me than Frankie, but that's cool. There will also

830
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 1: be baking of some kind, which again, like I've never

831
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 1: been a baker, but I'm just getting so much joy

832
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,799
Speaker 1: from like creating things with my hands because it's the

833
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,359
Speaker 1: opposite of what I do with work. And then there'll

834
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 1: be playdates and so when I just find with Frankie,

835
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 1: like she's at this age, she's six and a half,

836
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 1: and it's like, because we only get this intense weekend

837
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,760
Speaker 1: together every second weekend, that's like, you know, two weeks

838
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 1: space in between, two weeks for her to grow up.

839
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 1: I'm still seeing her midweek though, but I feel like

840
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 1: every every fortnight it just gets better and better, and

841
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 1: like our conversations get better and better, and like she

842
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 1: just makes me think about things differently, like I was

843
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 1: reflecting on and I assume that all kids do this,

844
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 1: but like if you use a word in conversation that

845
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:52,279
Speaker 1: they don't know, they will go what does that mean,

846
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 1: like the exact opposite to what adults do, because they

847
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 1: don't want to look stupid like adults, just not even

848
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:00,400
Speaker 1: if they've got no idea what the word is. And like,

849
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,240
Speaker 1: for example, we listen to a lot of musical theater

850
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 1: Frankie and I because I love musical theater, and I

851
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 1: feel like I'm doing my duty to educate her on

852
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 1: the world of musicals. That's important knowledge. And so like

853
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 1: we're listening to this song from Matilda called Revolting Children,

854
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 1: and she's like, what does revolting mean, mum? And I said, well,

855
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 1: it's got two meanings, which is why the song's really clever.

856
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,880
Speaker 1: Like revolting means disgusting, like if you eat something and

857
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,360
Speaker 1: you want to spit it out, disgusting, But revolting also

858
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,279
Speaker 1: means like rebelling and breaking rules, and it's and it's

859
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 1: just kind of fun, like just seeing the world through

860
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 1: a kid's eye and going, we need to be more

861
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 1: like that. We need to not be afraid to ask

862
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 1: when we don't know what words and things mean, just

863
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 1: like the innocence of children where there's no ego, so

864
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 1: you know, there's just so much to be learned. And

865
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 1: then my other weekends is, which is kind of nice.

866
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 1: I feel like it's the best of both worlds as

867
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 1: a parent, where it's like my other every other weekend

868
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 1: is like it's all about me. So it's having deep

869
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 1: connections with friends, so which I love. I love one

870
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 1: on one and one on two kind of catch ups

871
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 1: where you can just like go deep into conversation with someone.

872
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 1: The other weekend, you and Sean came over and that

873
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:07,919
Speaker 1: was just like delightful, like you know, spending a few

874
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 1: hours together, you know, wonderful. And I just find that

875
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 1: so enriching, just my my conversations and my relationships with

876
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 1: my friends and my parents of course as well who

877
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 1: you know, Like I speak to my mum every day,

878
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 1: which is awesome. So I find that enriching. Reading. I

879
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 1: find that I've now become a binge reader. I'll either

880
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 1: be read read reading, or I will not be reading,

881
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 1: and I will be like doing something else, and I'm

882
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 1: just trying to think what else am I doing? Look

883
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 1: at my I'm trying to learn how to portrait raw.

884
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 1: I'm playing a lot more guitar at the moment, some

885
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,240
Speaker 1: sort of getting back into music stuff. And then I'm

886
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,239
Speaker 1: like I haven't been watching that much TV, but there's

887
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 1: like a show that's kind of a musical that I've

888
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:59,359
Speaker 1: got really into called Zolway's Extraordinary Playlist on Stan which

889
00:44:59,360 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 1: I'm like.

890
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 2: I'm finding this time a lot of people are rediscovering

891
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 2: some simple home things and just like friendships, family or

892
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,320
Speaker 2: for someone's cooking for someone. It's like music and things

893
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 2: and it's a beautiful thing. Like it's like one of

894
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 2: the nice unexpected things of a global pandemic, right, Yeah,

895
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 2: And I'd be curious as we begin to kind of

896
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 2: wrap up this wonderful conversation. I know a lot of

897
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 2: folks are in this situation where they're thinking what happened

898
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 2: to my what happened to my rhythms and routines I

899
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:33,279
Speaker 2: used to be productive? I feel I got no idea

900
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 2: and super heartening to hear how you're naver getting through this.

901
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 2: What would be something you'd suggest to folks that are

902
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 2: listening that are kind of possibly being quite hard on

903
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 2: themselves or struggling to figure out what to do next.

904
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 2: What would be a note of encouragement or advice or

905
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 2: something you'd offer.

906
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think firstly, lower your expectations is something that

907
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:56,400
Speaker 1: I think is very helpful and I found very helpful

908
00:45:56,400 --> 00:46:00,080
Speaker 1: for myself, Like I would beat myself up over oh

909
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:04,280
Speaker 1: my god, I spent today in email too much email today,

910
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 1: And I'm like, well, that's understandable. I need to go

911
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 1: easier on myself. It was a really stressful day with

912
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 1: other things going on, so understandable that I succumbed to

913
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 1: feeling a fake sense of progress because I just needed

914
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 1: to feel those open meat hits all day and that's

915
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:22,319
Speaker 1: perfectly acceptable. I also think for me, I'm a little

916
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 1: bit all on nothing and how I approach things and

917
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:28,360
Speaker 1: how I find I change my behavior most effectively. So

918
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,759
Speaker 1: for me, it's kind of like, okay, I'm kind of

919
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,720
Speaker 1: I feel like now I'm just like in the warm

920
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 1: up to the big event that starts on Monday, when

921
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 1: our four day work week experiments start. So it's like

922
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 1: I'm kind of like in pregame training mode, just kind

923
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 1: of getting all my systems set up and then it's

924
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 1: like bam, like I'm reset, just like hard reset on

925
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 1: the computer and it's like fresh start. And I find

926
00:46:56,600 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 1: that that is for me that works really well, and

927
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 1: just knowing exactly what I'm going to change and being

928
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:03,320
Speaker 1: clear for some folks.

929
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 2: May be declaring a date and giving themselves a chance

930
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:08,240
Speaker 2: to do a bit of a reset es Yeah, exactly.

931
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I think it's like it's also just getting

932
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:13,799
Speaker 1: back to what motivates you. Like I remember, I just

933
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 1: I just sort of did this journaling exercise a couple

934
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 1: of weeks ago when I was just sort of feeling

935
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 1: a bit like just unproductive really and going why am

936
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:25,839
Speaker 1: I unproductive? I feel like I've almost like lost sight

937
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 1: of the bigger picture and what I'm working on and

938
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:30,239
Speaker 1: what I'm excited about, and just kind of reconnecting with

939
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 1: that and why I do what I do was really

940
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 1: really helpful for going huh, yeah, and this is why

941
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:38,840
Speaker 1: I need to get back with productivity.

942
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 2: It sounds so cliche, doesn't it, But it's so good

943
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:44,719
Speaker 2: when you get what it works. Hey, it's like I

944
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 2: just did connect back to but like the kind of

945
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 2: a connection to some sort of sense of purpose of

946
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:50,879
Speaker 2: why are you showing up and why are you doing

947
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:54,399
Speaker 2: all this work? Brilliant? Totally Okay. So there's some folks

948
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,440
Speaker 2: that might be listening to this that and this could

949
00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:59,359
Speaker 2: be the first part time they've heard of you. What's like,

950
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:01,800
Speaker 2: would you love for them to connect with you or

951
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,759
Speaker 2: to kind of ongoingly beyond of course subscribe, leave a

952
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:07,760
Speaker 2: wonderful review that's always appreciated for anyone running a podcast.

953
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 1: What else, Well, look, the company that I founded and

954
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 1: dedicate my life to is Inventium, which you can find

955
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 1: at inventium dot com dot au. So we we help

956
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 1: companies with all sorts of things, from innovation to productivity

957
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 1: to behavioral change. So connect with me that I respond

958
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 1: to every email I receive thanks to my chat with

959
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:33,000
Speaker 1: Nigel Marsh who thought it was incredibly rude that I

960
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 1: didn't respond to most emails I receive, So that changed

961
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 1: my behavior several months ago, so I can be reached directly.

962
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:43,120
Speaker 1: My emails always in the show notes AMOUNTA at inventium

963
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 1: dot com dot au LinkedIn, I'm easy to find amount

964
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 1: the INBA, and I occasionally post on Twitter at Amantha wonderful.

965
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:53,839
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for sharing this insight and for

966
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 2: giving us a glimpse behind the scenes too, and also

967
00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:59,800
Speaker 2: giving us all a bit of hope about recovery in

968
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:01,319
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.

969
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 1: Thanks Jace. Hello there, that is it for today's show.

970
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 1: If you liked this episode, why not share it with

971
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 1: someone else that you think could benefit just by using

972
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:13,960
Speaker 1: the little share icon wherever you listen to this podcast.

973
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 1: And if you're enjoying How I Work, why not leave

974
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:19,160
Speaker 1: a review wherever you listen to this podcast. I am

975
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:21,840
Speaker 1: so grateful for all the hundreds of reviews that have

976
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 1: been left. You're all totally super awesome people that have

977
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:27,880
Speaker 1: done that, and thank you if you plan to leave

978
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:29,719
Speaker 1: a review today. So that's it for today's show and

979
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:30,919
Speaker 1: I'll see you next time.