1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,360 Speaker 1: I just want to make sure that those two things, 2 00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:05,320 Speaker 1: you know, achieving my own goals and then helping other 3 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:09,039 Speaker 1: people that they stayed on my radar. And so what 4 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:10,880 Speaker 1: I like to do is I like to start a 5 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: week by asking myself, what are three things I want 6 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:16,280 Speaker 1: to accomplish and what are three people that I want 7 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:18,080 Speaker 1: to help or three ways I want to be helpful? 8 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:20,240 Speaker 1: And then you know, I just kind of do an 9 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:22,600 Speaker 1: informal check in on a daily basis to ask am 10 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 1: I making progress toward those goals? And I think it 11 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: keeps me from getting stuck in the weeds of the 12 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: one goal that's happening to loom large at the moment, 13 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: and it forces me to make sure that I've got 14 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: my priorities in order. 15 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:42,639 Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 16 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 2: used by leading innovators to get so much out of 17 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 2: their day. 18 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 3: I'm your host, doctor Amantha If. 19 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 2: I'm an organizational psychologist, the CEO of Inventium, and I'm 20 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 2: obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work day. 21 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 3: For the month of January, I'll. 22 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 2: Be dipping into the archives of twenty eighteen to replace 23 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 2: some of my favorite episodes. Today, I wanted to replay 24 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 2: the very first interview I ran for this podcast, which 25 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:12,039 Speaker 2: was with one of my personal heroes, Adam Grant. Adam 26 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 2: Grant is an organizational psychologist, a best selling author, and 27 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 2: Wharton's highest rated professor. His books Give and Take, Originals 28 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 2: and Option B have sold over one million copies and 29 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 2: have been translated into thirty five languages. Adam has been 30 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 2: recognized as one of the world's ten most influential management thinkers, 31 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 2: and he also happens to be the host of one 32 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:36,119 Speaker 2: of my favorite podcasts, Work Life, which is a TED 33 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 2: original podcast. What I loved most about this chat is 34 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 2: that Adam is not only a walking encyclopedia of psychology findings, 35 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 2: but I loved hearing how he actually applies these findings 36 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 2: to his own life to be more productive. So on 37 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 2: that note, over to Adam to find out about how 38 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 2: he works. 39 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 4: Welcome to the show, Thanks, Amantha. 40 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 2: Now people talk about being productive, but I don't think 41 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 2: I've ever met anyone on your level. So your books 42 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 2: have sold over a million copies, your TED talks have 43 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 2: been viewed over twelve million times. You've written a huge 44 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 2: number of academic papers in well established and very well 45 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 2: respected journals, and You've been Wharton's top rated professor for 46 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 2: the last seven years. And then if that wasn't enough, 47 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 2: you somehow managed to be a junior Olympic springboard diver 48 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:32,080 Speaker 2: and a professional magician. And when I learned all this 49 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 2: about you, I thought, well, you know, if you were 50 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 2: seventy years old, that would be incredibly impressive. But you've 51 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 2: actually packed this all into thirty six years, and so 52 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 2: I've got a ton of questions on how on earth 53 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 2: you made that all happen. 54 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: Well, that's very kind of you. I don't feel very 55 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 1: productive on most days, so this is this is going 56 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: to be one of those one of those conversations where 57 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: I have no idea how to answer some of the 58 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: questions you're going to ask, but I'll do my best. 59 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 2: Wonderful, wonderful, Well, why don't we start with the morning. 60 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 2: I'm really keen to know what does a typical morning 61 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:07,119 Speaker 2: look like for you, if there is such a thing, 62 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 2: and what are the critical ingredients in your morning that 63 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 2: helps set you up for a good day. 64 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 4: You know, it's changed a lot since we had kids. 65 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 1: I would say before kids, I would basically wake up 66 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: in the morning and sit down at my computer and 67 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: work until I ran out of ideas, and you know, 68 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 1: sometimes that would mean I sat for four or five hours. 69 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: Sometimes I would work until late at night, and you know, 70 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:34,079 Speaker 1: obviously i'd get up to eat and stuff like that. 71 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: But I really liked just waking up and digging right 72 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: into a project and then being laser focused on it 73 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: for as long as I could. And once we had kids, 74 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: obviously I decided I was going to change my schedule, 75 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: and so now it's much more of I wake up 76 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 1: in the morning, we have family time, our kids go 77 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: off to school, and then once our kids leave, I 78 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: start working and my goal is to finish when our 79 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: kids get home and then not work again in until 80 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: after their sleep at night. 81 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 3: Wow. 82 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 2: That sounds incredibly well balanced, and I can definitely relate 83 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 2: to just the schedule changing. 84 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 3: When you become a parent, everything changes. 85 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 2: And I'm curious, like when you sit down at your 86 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 2: computer when the kids are off for the day, like, 87 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 2: what are the first few things that you do to 88 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 2: get into to that zone. 89 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: I think that in an ideal world, what I do 90 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 1: is I actually spend a little time the night before 91 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: if I'm going to work on something creative the next morning. 92 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: The night before I'll spend a few minutes just kind 93 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,039 Speaker 1: of mapping out a few ideas, and then when I 94 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 1: wake up, I find that I processed some of them 95 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 1: a little bit, and you know, whatever version of subconscious 96 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: thought you believe in, and then I feel like I 97 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 1: can just hit the ground running. 98 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 3: That's awesome. So you're kind of sleeping on the problem, 99 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 3: so to speak. 100 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess. 101 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 1: I don't know if it hurts the quality of my sleep, 102 00:04:57,440 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 1: but it definitely helps the quality of my work. 103 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 3: Oh, that's excellent. I love it. I love it. 104 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 2: And on the topic of academic work, I was really 105 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 2: intrigued when I read Callen Newport's deep work about how 106 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 2: you batch your teaching work in the fall semester and 107 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:14,919 Speaker 2: research work in the spring and summer semesters. 108 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 3: And firstly, I'm curious, is that still accurate? Is that 109 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 3: still what you do? 110 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 4: It is? 111 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've I've always taught in the fall, and I 112 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: just I feel like teaching is an immersive experience where, 113 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 1: you know, I want to I want to spend time 114 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: in the classroom getting to know my students, figuring out 115 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: what kinds of questions they have, you know, every year, 116 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: I redesigned twenty percent of the course. I'd like to 117 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: redesign more, but I don't want to subject the students 118 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 1: to the terrible ideas. 119 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:42,600 Speaker 4: That I've had every year. 120 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: And so I figure, if eighty percent stay is constant, 121 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:47,919 Speaker 1: then you know, there's there at least some major elements 122 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: that are tried and true that have gone reasonably well. 123 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 4: But you know, and then I just. 124 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 1: Spend a lot of time answering emails, you know, doing 125 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: meetings and office hours, and I didn't I didn't want 126 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 1: to have anything distract from that work wise, and so 127 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:06,720 Speaker 1: you know, then I thought, Okay, well, I'm going to 128 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: have a semester that's teaching focused, and then I'll have 129 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:13,039 Speaker 1: January through July every year to work on research and 130 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: ideas and some of the other things that I've I've 131 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 1: brought into my job. And it's been a nice balance 132 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: in part because like right now, it's basically June, and 133 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: I can't wait to get back in the classroom, right 134 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: I haven't been since December, and I'm like, why am 135 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: I not teaching? It's the most energizing part of my job. 136 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,359 Speaker 1: And you know, in December, I was really eager. I 137 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: had a whole bunch of ideas that I wanted to develop, 138 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 1: and I was excited to have more free time to 139 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: work on them. And so I feel like I get 140 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: to alternate between two different jobs that I love. 141 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:47,720 Speaker 3: That's fantastic. I love that. 142 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 2: And was that something that you did right from the 143 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:52,839 Speaker 2: stat of your academic career. 144 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: I think it's pretty common here in the States, at 145 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: least in business schools. I would say, so, I've done 146 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: it from I always wanted to teach in the fall 147 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,919 Speaker 1: because I remembered the excitement of going back to school 148 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: and how he couldn't wait to learn, and then, you know, 149 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: always feeling like in the spring semester, I was like, eh, 150 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: I'm ready for the summer to come around. So, you know, 151 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: I felt like it was it was the right time 152 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: to really reach students and connect with them. And I 153 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: I just, I guess, from from the very beginning, I 154 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: felt like I needed protected time to get research done, 155 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: and I also needed some boundaries to make sure that 156 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: that didn't spill into everything that I wanted to do 157 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: in the classroom and the relationships I wanted to build 158 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: with students. And so I guess, uh, yeah, I've never 159 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: known it any other way. I've studiously avoided teaching in 160 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: the spring or in the non fall, I should say, 161 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 1: although I've occasionally done a week or so in the spring. 162 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: But that's that's about it. 163 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, wow, fantastic. 164 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 2: And I've also heard with emails. Is it true that 165 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 2: sometimes you will go a few days without checking emails? 166 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 4: No, definitely not. 167 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 3: Good to clarify that. 168 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 2: What I have heard about your your inbox checking is 169 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 2: that you frame up the task of like, you know, waiting, 170 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 2: like going through an inbox with let's say three hundred 171 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 2: emails in it, which I'm sure is a daily occurrence 172 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 2: for you in a really interesting way. Can you talk 173 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 2: about how you think about inbox checking? 174 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: Well, let me first say that email used to be 175 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:35,079 Speaker 1: one of my favorite things. I remember in nineteen ninety 176 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 1: I sent my first email. I think it was either 177 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: nine or ten, and it was to a cousin in 178 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: Colorado and it took about forty eight hours. 179 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I mean it was. 180 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: It was one of those defining moments where I could 181 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:52,439 Speaker 1: not believe that I could type something on the computer 182 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 1: it was just a sentence or two, and that it would, 183 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: you know, somehow travel halfway across the country. And so 184 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 1: I just loved email. And I thought it was I 185 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 1: guess it appealed to this. I guess I'm really into 186 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,719 Speaker 1: efficiency and it bothers me when something is inefficient. And 187 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: so I love the fact that with email, I could, 188 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: you know, I could reach multiple people at once, and 189 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: I could you know, respond to multiple people quickly, as 190 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: opposed to having separate phone conversations with. 191 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 4: Each of them all the time. 192 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:21,439 Speaker 1: And slowly, as I went through college and moved into 193 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 1: grad school, I started to hate email and I wondered 194 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: what happened. And what happened was I started getting too 195 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:30,559 Speaker 1: much of it. And you know, there's a curse. I'm 196 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 1: sure you've experienced this as well, that the more responsive 197 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:37,679 Speaker 1: you are, the more email you get, yes, and so yeah, 198 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: but I but I didn't. I didn't realize it at first. So, 199 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:41,959 Speaker 1: you know, it's really important to me to get back 200 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 1: to people, and so often I think I went a 201 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 1: couple of years where my average average email response time, 202 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: you know, between morning and evening was was just a 203 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: few minutes max. And you know, I took real I 204 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: took pride in that it was it was part of 205 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:58,599 Speaker 1: being there for for people, right, And you know what 206 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: I didn't what I didn't quite realized at the time, 207 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: was Okay, I'm incentivizing these people to send me more emails. 208 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: This is this is reinforcement, and so you know that 209 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 1: then the number of people you know goes up. And 210 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: so I just I just ended up with with more 211 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 1: emails than I could get to in a day. And 212 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: so I found myself, you know, especially if I was 213 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: if I was working on a big project, you know, 214 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: it would be nighttime and I'd have hundreds of emails accumulating, 215 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: and I felt like I couldn't keep up. And so 216 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 1: the way that I motivated myself was I said, look, 217 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 1: this is something I've studied in my research, and when 218 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 1: a task is unpleasant, like you know, trying to clear 219 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 1: out three hundred emails, I'm not going to motivate myself 220 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: by thinking about the benefits to me, because if I 221 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:45,439 Speaker 1: thought the activity was beneficial to me, I would. 222 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 4: Already be motivated to do it. 223 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: The only way to motivate myself is to ask myself, Okay, 224 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: what good is this going to do for the people 225 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: that I'm answering. And so I actually started going through 226 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: my inbox and sorting by where I could have the 227 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: most impact, and so It wasn't you know who emailed 228 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: me first. It wasn't necessarily you know who I knew best. 229 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 1: It was where could I add the most value? And 230 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: as I answered a few of those emails, I started 231 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 1: to get a rhythm and I started to feel like, 232 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 1: all right, you know what, this is kind of annoying 233 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: in you know, an aggregate, but I also feel like 234 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: I'm doing something useful here. And then you know that 235 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: that would give me the energy I needed to sort 236 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: of finish the task and get my inbox cleaned. 237 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 3: That that is so cool. 238 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,959 Speaker 2: I'm completely going to change how I look at email 239 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:27,679 Speaker 2: after hearing that. 240 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 3: I love that. 241 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: I don't know if you should actually, you know, Amantha, 242 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: I think I think it's a risky idea because you 243 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 1: don't want to convince yourself to like email, because then 244 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:39,839 Speaker 1: you'll just spend all day every day doing email. I 245 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: think you just want to make it bearable. 246 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:44,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, well that's a good name, making email bearable. 247 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 3: I love that. 248 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:49,079 Speaker 2: And I guess like where email can be quite troublesome 249 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 2: for a lot of people is where they've got the 250 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 2: inbox open all day and they've got notifications popping up, 251 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 2: and they're just kind of doing, you know, the just 252 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 2: check of the email, And you seem to be someone 253 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 2: who is really good at fighting off those digital distractions 254 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 2: and just staying focused, And I'm. 255 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:10,439 Speaker 3: Wondering, like, how do you do that? 256 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 2: What are your tricks for not being tempted by the 257 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 2: various digital distractions that are out there? 258 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 4: Well, you know, it's funny. 259 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: I think I've been really intrigued by the science of 260 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 1: self control here, because if you study self control, one 261 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 1: of the things you will see in the data is 262 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: that people with high self control actually exercise it less. 263 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:35,719 Speaker 1: So if you have really great willpower, you use less willpower. 264 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 1: And it sounds like a paradox, but the reason for 265 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: that is anyone who has good self control recognizes that 266 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 1: it's easier to prevent yourself from getting into a situation 267 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: where you have to manage an impulse than it is 268 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:51,559 Speaker 1: to manage the impulse in the moment. 269 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 4: You know. 270 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: It's the equivalent of saying, all right, I should probably 271 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: set an alarm clock and then put it halfway across 272 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 1: the room so that I wake up in the morning, 273 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: I am not tempted to just hit this news button. 274 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,079 Speaker 1: And that's a habit that I think you can carry 275 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: throughout your day. And so you know, I think there 276 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,959 Speaker 1: are extreme versions of this that I actually don't endorse. 277 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: I guess you could go cold turkey and say, all right, 278 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,319 Speaker 1: you know, I'm gonna turn off all notifications, I'm not 279 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: going to check any technology. I'm going to disconnect myself 280 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: from the internet whatever I need to do. And I 281 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: actually find some of those distractions to be useful mini breaks. 282 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:29,559 Speaker 4: So you know, when I'm stuck on an idea or 283 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 4: a sentence when. 284 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,559 Speaker 1: I'm writing, I'll actually go over to Twitter and check 285 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: it for you know, a minute or two. But I 286 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 1: limit myself on a clock, and I also usually have 287 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:42,079 Speaker 1: goals for how much I have to finish before I'm 288 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,679 Speaker 1: allowed to go over and check, and so that that 289 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: kind of helps. And so you know, it's a simple thing, 290 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:50,559 Speaker 1: right saying all right, I'm going to aim to use 291 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 1: social media five to ten minutes a day when I 292 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 1: can't be doing anything else. So you know, I will 293 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: do it when when I'm sitting on a flight waiting 294 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: for it to take off, or you know, i'll be 295 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: on it when I am. I actually end up doing 296 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: it quite a bit, you know, in like a left 297 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: or an uber a taxi and you know, otherwise I'll 298 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: just I'll use it as a small reward for making 299 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:15,680 Speaker 1: progress on the things that I think are important. 300 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 3: I like that, So it's a reward. And then you 301 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 3: said that you set the clock, because where I. 302 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 2: Can imagine people coming undone is that they go great. 303 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 2: Adams told me to reward myself with Facebook. I'm going 304 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 2: to pop on and then two hours later, hang on 305 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 2: what task was I working on? 306 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 3: Like? How does that work? 307 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 2: Like? 308 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 3: Are you setting a really noisy stopwatch? Do you like? 309 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: No? 310 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 3: Look, how does that work? 311 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 2: No? 312 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: I just have a time in mind, so you know, 313 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: if it's if it's seven fifty six, I'll say, all right, 314 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: I've got four minutes, and then at eight o'clock I'm 315 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: gonna get. 316 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 4: Back to work. 317 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: And if I fall short on that, I'm disappointing myself 318 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 1: and I start feeling guilty and that's not pleasant. 319 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 4: So next time, I'm like, I don't want to feel 320 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 4: that way again. Let me we just stay on task. 321 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 3: You know. 322 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: I will also say, though, I feel like, if you know, 323 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: if the urge to spend hours scrolling through Facebook is 324 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: dragging you away from your work, then your work isn't 325 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: motivating enough. You know, I feel like I actually feel 326 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: the opposite of impulse. If I'm scrolling through Facebook, I'm like. 327 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 4: Ah, but I have this really exciting work to do. 328 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 4: I want to get back to that. 329 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: And you know, I obviously don't think it's practical for 330 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 1: every single moment of every single day to be that 331 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: intrinsically motivating. But I think, to you know, to have 332 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: an enjoyable and meaningful work life, it's it's probably worth asking, you, 333 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: know that that desire you feel to engage with whatever 334 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: your guilty distraction is, how could you actually design your 335 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: work so that it creates that. 336 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's interesting. 337 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 2: You bring up intrinsic motivation, and I was quite intrigued 338 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 2: by I think it must be one of your latest 339 00:15:56,080 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 2: publications in the Academy of Management Journal, where you talk 340 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 2: about when people work on a task that is intrinsically 341 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 2: and deeply motivating, performance on the extrinsically motivating task falls and. 342 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 3: Alor can you talk a bit more about what you 343 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 3: found it? 344 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 2: And I'm personally curious how have you applied that to 345 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 2: your own life because it was such a curious research. 346 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: So, Amantha, you've really done your homework here because this 347 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: was just accepted for publication in the last few weeks, 348 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: so it's i'd say it's hot off the presses, but 349 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: it's not even on the presses. It's impress So this 350 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: is a This is a series of studies that gheshin 351 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: Lad and we started off with this idea that it's 352 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: assumed to be a good thing to have intrinsic motivation, 353 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: but we all have a range of projects and tasks 354 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: that make up our jobs, and nobody's really ever thought 355 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: about or studied the spillover effects. And we wondered, if 356 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: there's a dark side of working on an intrinsically motivating task, 357 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 1: that it could make your boring tasks even more dull 358 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: in you know, in juxtaposition, and that's basically what we found. 359 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: So in one of the studies, GA gathered data from 360 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 1: a Korean company and it turned out that the more 361 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: you have one task in your portfolio of five or 362 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: six that's off the charts and intrinsic motivation, the more 363 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:20,400 Speaker 1: your performance suffers on your less interesting tasks. And then 364 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: we designed an experiment which was really fun. We had 365 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:27,199 Speaker 1: people search for YouTube videos as the first task, and 366 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 1: so the interesting version was to find the most fascinating 367 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 1: videos on YouTube and then write about what made them 368 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 1: so interesting. There was there was kind of a medium 369 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: interest condition where you had to search for life hack 370 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: videos and you know, and just summarize what, you know, 371 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: what the practical insights were there. And then in the 372 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: boring condition, we had people watch videos of paint dry, 373 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: so you actually had to sit there and watch paint drying, 374 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,879 Speaker 1: and we had people we had people describe them so 375 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 1: that we could check to make sure they were actually 376 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:00,920 Speaker 1: watching them. And so then you've just an interesting or 377 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 1: boring task or one somewhere in between. And then in 378 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: a second task, we had you either play a really 379 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 1: fun computer game or copy numbers from a phone book. 380 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 1: And it turned out that people who had watched the 381 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:16,400 Speaker 1: fascinating YouTube videos actually made more mistakes and performed worse 382 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: on the copying tasks. 383 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 2: It's so interesting, Like what I was really curious about 384 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 2: because I was reading that research and reflecting on how 385 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 2: would I apply that in my own life, and I 386 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 2: felt quite sort of challenged to go, well, how. 387 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 3: Do I do that? 388 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 2: And I was curious, like I would imagine that when 389 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 2: you find these things in your research studies, you reflect 390 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 2: on your own life and think about how can you 391 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 2: integrate that. So I'm curious if you found a way 392 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 2: to integrate this into your own life, and if so, 393 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 2: what is that? 394 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, I have. 395 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: Actually I think about it a little bit like athletes 396 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,959 Speaker 1: who taper before a big competition. So you know, if 397 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 1: you're a runner or a swimmer or a weightlifter, you're 398 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: not supposed to do a max like a max and 399 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: te see workout in the few days before your big competition. 400 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: So you know, runners, if they're training for a marathon 401 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 1: and the you know, in the few days before, they 402 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 1: won't do a really long run, or same for a 403 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: swimmer or a weightlifter won't lift quite as heavy, and 404 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: the idea is that they're they're kind of tapering down 405 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 1: to have maximum strength. I think that there's I don't 406 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: know if the analogy holds perfectly, but I've started to 407 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,400 Speaker 1: think about the sequencing of tasks in my days as 408 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:30,439 Speaker 1: involving some tapering. So I used to think that I 409 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: should put interesting tasks and boring tasks back to back, 410 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: and that as I'm working on something that I find 411 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 1: just just endlessly intriguing, right after that I should do 412 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 1: my most dull task of the day, because then I'll 413 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: have some energy to carry over, and when our data 414 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: show is that's false. Instead of energy carrying over, there's 415 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 1: just this awful contrast where you're like, Wow, this was 416 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,640 Speaker 1: horrible before and now it's going to crush my soul. 417 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:54,919 Speaker 4: How can I possibly do this? 418 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 1: How do I just spend more time working on this 419 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:02,479 Speaker 1: fun task instead? And what's interesting is that if this 420 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:04,440 Speaker 1: is all assuming that you care about your performance in 421 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: the boring task, right that you know it's it may 422 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 1: be dull, but it's important or it matters in some way. 423 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:12,160 Speaker 1: If you don't want your performance to suffer in that task, 424 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: then what you want to do is sandwich a medium 425 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: task in between, and so you taper down from interesting 426 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 1: to moderately interesting to boring. And if you work on 427 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,639 Speaker 1: a moderately interesting task that's kind of okay before the 428 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 1: boring task, it's not so different to create that contrast, 429 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,919 Speaker 1: and so the boring task doesn't suffer. Instead, you actually 430 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 1: do have a little bit in an energy that seems 431 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 1: to carry over and it boosts your performance on the 432 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: boring task. And so now I think about these these 433 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 1: kind of little trios of tasks where I start out, 434 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:42,159 Speaker 1: I go interesting, you know, okay, boring, and then I 435 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:44,120 Speaker 1: go back to the interesting task. And what I love 436 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: about that is that helps power me through the boring 437 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 1: task because I've got something really exciting to look forward 438 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: to when I finish. 439 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 3: That's really cool. I love that idea of typering. 440 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 2: I feel like I can definitely definitely apply that in 441 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 2: my own life. 442 00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 3: That's very cool. 443 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,640 Speaker 2: One thing I was very curious about is that something 444 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 2: you're very well known for is being such a generous giver, 445 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 2: and so much of your research has focused on. 446 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 3: Essentially the power of giving. 447 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 2: And on the other hand, I read so much in 448 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 2: the productivity space about the importance of saying no and 449 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 2: the power of saying no, and I was curious, how 450 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 2: do you balance that because I can't even begin to 451 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 2: imagine how many people are requesting your time and I 452 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 2: know that you are very much a yes person, and 453 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 2: how do you balance that? How do you know when 454 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 2: to say yes versus saying no? 455 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 4: Oh? I don't know. 456 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm struggling through this the same way 457 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:45,120 Speaker 1: that everyone else is. I'll tell you what has been 458 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,239 Speaker 1: most helpful to me, though, I think you know. I 459 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: used to try to say yes to everyone and to everything, 460 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: and I just found that that was impossible, as you know, 461 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: as I got busier as my profile, you know, I 462 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: guess got rare is outside the Ivory tower. I just 463 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: didn't have enough hours in the day to field all 464 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,640 Speaker 1: the requests that were coming in, and so I ended 465 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,479 Speaker 1: up coming out with a bunch of heuristics that more 466 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: or less mirrored what I've studied when I've when I've 467 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 1: looked at the differences between you know, people who are 468 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,479 Speaker 1: what I've called successful givers who are productively generous, and 469 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: failed givers who are too selfless and end up burning 470 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 1: out or getting burned by the takers who have they 471 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 1: have the misfortune of dealing with. There are a few 472 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 1: kinds of choices that really matter. The first one is 473 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,199 Speaker 1: to be thoughtful about who you help. And so for me, 474 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,639 Speaker 1: that's That's meant that I have a hierarchy of people 475 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 1: that I'm trying to support, and it's family first, students second, 476 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: colleagues third, everyone else fourth. And at some point I 477 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: realized that friends were not in that list, and I 478 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: felt really bad about it, But then I realized, you 479 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 1: know what, I actually my goal in a friendship is 480 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: not to be you know, helping the person it's to be, 481 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: you know, to be a friend, and that may involve 482 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: lots of different things, and you know, I'll fit them 483 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: in wherever, but uh, the other the other categories. It 484 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:06,880 Speaker 1: was it was important for me to be clear because 485 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,199 Speaker 1: when a request comes in, I know that I'm not 486 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,119 Speaker 1: going to be equally generous to everyone. And so I 487 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: had to realize, you know what, I'm okay with the 488 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 1: fact that my colleagues may well think that I'm less 489 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,439 Speaker 1: generous than my students do, because I just did not 490 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 1: become a professor to try to inspire other professors, right. 491 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 1: I became a professor because I wanted to have an 492 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 1: impact on students the same way that you know that 493 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,439 Speaker 1: I was really influenced by, you know, by the the 494 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: great teachers that I had had, and I wanted to 495 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: try to pay that forward. And so, you know, when 496 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: when a request comes in, I just kind of go 497 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 1: through that list, and it depends on how much I 498 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: have in the day. And it was so important to 499 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,639 Speaker 1: put family first there because you know, it's easy to say, well, 500 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 1: you know, there's you know, there are lots of requests 501 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,479 Speaker 1: that come in workwise that are urgent, and you know 502 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 1: you you also are able to gain status and build 503 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 1: connections by helping people. And you know that some of 504 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 1: the family stuff is sometimes less exciting if you're changing diapers, 505 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: for example. But you know, when I took a step 506 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,199 Speaker 1: back and thought about my values, I knew that it 507 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:11,919 Speaker 1: was most important to me to be, you know, to 508 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,199 Speaker 1: be showing up for my family first and foremost, so 509 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: that I found really helpful. And then the other choices 510 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: are about how you help and when you help. And 511 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 1: you know that basically breaks down to saying, look, I 512 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,160 Speaker 1: want to help when I can add unique value and 513 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 1: when it does not detract from my energy or my 514 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: ability to get my own work done. And so what 515 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 1: I tried to do was break down all the different 516 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 1: ways that I was trying to say yes to people 517 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: and figure out which ones I enjoyed and excelled at. 518 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 1: And you know, if people were asking for help in 519 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 1: domains where I didn't feel like I had a unique 520 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 1: contribution to make or it was exhausting me, I knew 521 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 1: that over time that meant I was going to have 522 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,920 Speaker 1: less impact. And so for me, that's been kind of 523 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: zooming in on two things. One is knowledge sharing. There's 524 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 1: almost nothing that Breton's inbox more than somebody reaching out 525 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: and saying, yeah, I had this question about, you know, 526 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 1: something related to work psychology, like has anybody ever studied 527 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 1: fill in the blank, And I'm like, yes, there's a 528 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: chance to take all that esoteric information that I'm collecting 529 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: from academic journals and share it with somebody who might 530 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 1: be curious about it or who can apply it in 531 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: some way, And so that that's always a treat, and 532 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 1: I feel like there aren't that many people who you know, 533 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 1: kind of who where that's the way that they help. 534 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: And then the other is I really love making introductions, 535 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 1: provided that they're mutually beneficial, and so you know, I 536 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 1: feel like I by virtue of the kind of work 537 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 1: that I do, I get to interact with lots of 538 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: different industries and kinds of people, and it's just really 539 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 1: fun to connect the dots between two people who could 540 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 1: help each other and or who could create something really 541 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: meaningful together. And so I've tried to focus on those requests. 542 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 1: And that means that when somebody reaches out and it's 543 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 1: not in one of those buckets, I'll let them know 544 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 1: that you know, their request is not in my wheelhouse. 545 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:58,959 Speaker 1: But if I could be helpful by sharing knowledge or 546 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 1: by making introduction, then you know, I'd be happy to 547 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 1: do that. 548 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 2: And on that, I'm very encouraged to hear that you 549 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,719 Speaker 2: do indeed say no? And how like, how do you 550 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,439 Speaker 2: say no politely? Do you do you have like a 551 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 2: go to no strategy? 552 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: I have a few of them. Let's let's try them out. 553 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 2: Make a request, So, Adam, I'm gonna be in the 554 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 2: US in a couple of months time. 555 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 3: Can I stay with you for a week? 556 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 2: No? No. 557 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:33,159 Speaker 1: There are a couple different ways would answer that. So the 558 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: first one is, you know, Amantha, I would love to 559 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 1: see you when you're in the US. I try not 560 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 1: to impose people on my family life. Uh, and in particular, 561 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,919 Speaker 1: my wife is a segmentor and an introvert, and she 562 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 1: really it's important for her to have boundaries and. 563 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 4: She doesn't like the blurring between work and home. 564 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: And so you know, I learned a long time ago 565 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:58,679 Speaker 1: that it wasn't fair to her to just invite people 566 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,719 Speaker 1: that are total strangers to into our home. So as 567 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: much as I would love to have you, I can 568 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: recommend some great hotels. 569 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:06,680 Speaker 3: That's great. 570 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 2: So you're giving a very clear and detailed rationale behind 571 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 2: the no. 572 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,199 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, look, I don't I don't feel like 573 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 1: I actually have an obligation to do that. If somebody 574 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: has the goal to ask something that's unreasonable, then I 575 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,119 Speaker 1: can be perfectly unreasonable back. But I still prefer to 576 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: err on the side of politeness. You know another thing 577 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,879 Speaker 1: I might say, though, which is, you know, it's not 578 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: that often that somebody would just ask out of the blue, 579 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 1: can you stay with me? But I do get a 580 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: lot of you know, well, hey, I'm going to be 581 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 1: coming through Philly, can we meet up? And you know, 582 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 1: my standard answer to that is, actually, when I'm in Philly, 583 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,400 Speaker 1: my time belongs to my family and my students, and 584 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: you know those those are my two priorities. And so 585 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: you know, the only ways that the only way that 586 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 1: I can really protect my time and show up for 587 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,199 Speaker 1: the people that I've made a commitment to supporting is 588 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:01,120 Speaker 1: to set that boundary. 589 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 4: And I really hope you understand. 590 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 3: Nice. That sounds very polite and reasonable. I like that. 591 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:09,880 Speaker 4: That's right now. 592 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 2: Before we move on to rapid fire questions, there was 593 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 2: one other thing that I wanted to ask you about, 594 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 2: and I'm not sure if this is still true. But 595 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,639 Speaker 2: I'd read that there's a certain way that you start 596 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,119 Speaker 2: every week where you think about what you want to 597 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 2: accomplish and how you want to help, and that kind 598 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:28,640 Speaker 2: of becomes your compass for the week. 599 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 3: Is that still something that you do and if so, 600 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,159 Speaker 3: could you maybe elaborate on what that looks like? 601 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:35,639 Speaker 4: Sure? 602 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:40,239 Speaker 1: So I started doing this when I realized that I'm 603 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 1: I guess, you know, I think about personality in terms 604 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 1: of we all have lots of traits, but are the 605 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: traits we express in any given moment. I think that's 606 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: often governed by our dominant trade, the trade we're most 607 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 1: extreme on, and my dominant trade is probably being goal oriented. 608 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,719 Speaker 1: If you give me a goal, I just get tunnel 609 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 1: vision and the only thing I can see or think 610 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 1: of is that goal. And so I wanted to I 611 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 1: wanted to improve my peripheral vision. I wanted to make 612 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: sure that I didn't lose sight of my priorities. And 613 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: I saw that going both ways. Sometimes, you know, I'd 614 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: get totally focused on a work goal, and you know, 615 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 1: I'd miss out on some ways that I really wanted 616 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: to be responsive to other people. And then on the 617 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 1: flip side, right, I'd get totally immersed in helping somebody, 618 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 1: and you know, a work task would fall off my plate. 619 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 1: And so I just wanted to make sure that those 620 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,719 Speaker 1: those two things, you know, achieving my own goals and 621 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: then helping other people, that they stayed on my radar. 622 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 4: And so what I what I. 623 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: Like to do is I like to start a week 624 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 1: by asking myself, what are three things I want to 625 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: accomplish and what are three people that I want to 626 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: help or three ways. 627 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 4: I want to be helpful? 628 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 1: And then you know, I just kind of do an 629 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 1: informal check in on a daily basis to ask am 630 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: I making progress toward those goals? And I think it 631 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: keeps me from getting stuck in the weeds of the 632 00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 1: one goal that's happening to loom large at the moment, 633 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: and it me to. 634 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 4: Make sure that I've got my priorities in order. 635 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 3: Hmm, I like that. 636 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 2: Can you give me an example of maybe what one 637 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 2: thing that you're trying to accomplish this week has been 638 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 2: and one way that you are trying to help a 639 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 2: person or something this week, just to give an example. 640 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: Sure, So this week my big work goal was finishing 641 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 1: up a draft of an audiobook that I'm releasing later 642 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 1: this summer, which is called Power Moves. It's been a 643 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 1: really interesting project. It's a collaboration with Audible, where they said, look, 644 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: we know you're going to be going to the World 645 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 1: Economic Forum in Davos in January, and we're wondering if 646 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 1: you want to do an audiobook around a theme about 647 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: the lessons that you can interview a bunch of people 648 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: and add in your own analysis. And so ended up 649 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: doing about two dozen interviews in Davos with all sorts 650 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 1: of interesting leaders and thinkers, and it was around the 651 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: theme of power, asking how it's changing and how we 652 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 1: can use it for good and so you know, I've 653 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: been working on that since then, and my goal for 654 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 1: this week was to finish a complete draft so we're 655 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 1: ready to record soon. And then in terms of being 656 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: helpful on a professional front, my big goal for the 657 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: week was to help one of our doctoral students get 658 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,959 Speaker 1: a paper out for publication. And so I read it, 659 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 1: I gave comments, then we strategized about which journals to 660 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 1: submit it to and hot a best frame it to 661 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: make a contribution. And you know, I had kind of 662 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: bo I had both of those actually on a to 663 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 1: do list, and I was just checking out by myself 664 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: over the last couple of days. 665 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 3: Awesome, I love it. Love those examples. 666 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 2: Now onto the sort of the rapid fire finish for. 667 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 3: The show. 668 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 2: So a large part of staying focused fit is tuning 669 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 2: into useful and insightful stimulus and tuning. 670 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 3: Out the rest because there's so much of that. 671 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 2: And so to finish off, I've got a few quick 672 00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 2: questions for you on this topic. To start with, what 673 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 2: podcasts you're currently listening to and loving? 674 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 4: Oh? 675 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: I love Invisibilia on NPR. I think it's it's a 676 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: show about all the hidden forces that shape behavior, and 677 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: I just think it's it's mind bending, is a good 678 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 1: way to describe it. My favorite episodes were How to 679 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 1: Become Batman and Flip the Script, and then I'm also 680 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: a big fan of Revisionist History with Malcolm Gladwell. 681 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 3: Oh that's so good, isn't it? 682 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 1: Yes? 683 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 3: Awesome? 684 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 2: What is it a newsletter that you subscribe to and 685 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,960 Speaker 2: actually look forward to reading? Oh? 686 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 1: I have a lot of favorite newsletters, but one of 687 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 1: the ones that I get the most out of is 688 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: Dan Pink's Every Other Week. 689 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:44,719 Speaker 3: I love that one too. 690 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 2: That's such a good one, yes, Now, what is a 691 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 2: great book that you've read recently? 692 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: Actually, just read two outstanding books that were both released 693 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 1: in the fall. One was Joyful by Ingrid feateel Lee 694 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: and the other was Rule Makers rule Breaker by Michelle 695 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: gelfand fantastic. 696 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 3: I'm gonna check those ones out. 697 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 2: And finally, what's your favorite research study into productivity and 698 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 2: what did it reveal? 699 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: Oh, there's so many. Do I really have to choose one? 700 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 3: You do? 701 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 2: Yes? 702 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 4: Oh? 703 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 1: That is cruel and unusual punishment. I don't know that 704 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 1: I can choose a favorite, but I'll tell you. Actually, 705 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 1: the most interesting one that I read this week, when 706 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 1: I was procrastinating on some writing, I read this study 707 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 1: out of Ohio State University, which really bothered me because 708 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 1: the arrival of my Michigan Wolverines, but I'll. 709 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 4: Try to get over that. 710 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: And it was actually a series of I think eight 711 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 1: studies which showed that when you have a meeting coming 712 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: up in an hour or two, you use the time 713 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: in between much less productively. And so in one of 714 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 1: their studies, when people knew they had a meeting on 715 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 1: their calendar, they use the time between now and then 716 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: to get twenty two percent less work done than they 717 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 1: would have if they taking that off their calendar. Wow, 718 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 1: and you know that it's obviously a mistake, right, we 719 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 1: waste a lot of time. You're just saying, well, there's 720 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:10,839 Speaker 1: no point in starting that because I have a meeting 721 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:11,480 Speaker 1: in six hours. 722 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 4: How could I ever make any progress between now and then? 723 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 1: And I think you know, one takeaway from me on 724 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,799 Speaker 1: that is it's reinforcement for something I've done for a 725 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 1: long time, which is stacking meetings more or less back 726 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: to back on a meeting day, so you know, on 727 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,439 Speaker 1: a teaching day, what I'll do is I'll hold all 728 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 1: my office hours back to back. And I learned that 729 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,280 Speaker 1: I needed a little buffer so that, you know, maybe 730 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 1: five minutes between each meeting just to catch up on 731 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,640 Speaker 1: email or in case a meeting round long helped. But 732 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: then I'd have another day with no meetings at all, 733 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 1: where I could really focus and be productive. And this 734 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:44,240 Speaker 1: research just kind of reinforced. 735 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 4: That for me. 736 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,879 Speaker 2: I love that. That's fascinating. Well, thank you so much 737 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,320 Speaker 2: for your time, Adam. I was really looking forward to 738 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 2: speaking to you, and you did not disappoint. Now, for 739 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,320 Speaker 2: those who want to get more, Adam Grant into their lives. 740 00:34:58,480 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 3: How can we do that? 741 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 4: Well, I wouldn't wish that on anyone, but if that's 742 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:05,280 Speaker 4: what you wanted. 743 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 1: I've had a lot of fun doing my work Life 744 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 1: podcast with the Ted team, and we just finished season 745 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 1: one and are just starting to think about season two. 746 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 1: And then I do a newsletter every month called Granted, 747 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 1: where I share new insights about work in psychology and 748 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 1: answer reader questions. 749 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 2: Fantastic and where can we sign up for that? 750 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 4: Oh, it's just an Adam grant Net. 751 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 2: Wonderful, wonderful, And I got to say, I'm loving your 752 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 2: work Life podcast and also your e newsletter is one 753 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 2: of the ones that I look forward to, So. 754 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:42,279 Speaker 4: I I thank you for that. 755 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,440 Speaker 3: Yes, so, thank you so much, Adam. It's been an 756 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:46,320 Speaker 3: absolute pleasure. 757 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 4: Pleasures areline. 758 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,799 Speaker 2: Thank you, Amantha, Hello there, thank you so much for 759 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 2: listening to today's episode. Have you got some really useful 760 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,240 Speaker 2: tips and insights that you can apply in your own life? 761 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 3: And before you go, I just have one more. 762 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 4: Thing to ask. 763 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,280 Speaker 2: I would love it if you're enjoying How I Work, 764 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,280 Speaker 2: if you'd like to give it a review in iTunes 765 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to, your podcast might be a 766 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:12,320 Speaker 2: star rating. 767 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,440 Speaker 3: Or writing some words on what you think about how 768 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 3: I work. 769 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,800 Speaker 2: I read every single review and they've all been delightful 770 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:22,840 Speaker 2: so far and bring a huge smile to my face. 771 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:24,120 Speaker 3: And also, if. 772 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,399 Speaker 2: You're enjoying how I work, make sure you let other 773 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 2: people know about it that you think could also benefit 774 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,400 Speaker 2: from some of the tips that my guests share. So 775 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 2: that is it for today and I'll see you next time.