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Speaker 1: We know that mental health within the police force, it

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Speaker 1: has been an area of real concern in recent months,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's safe to say that it is

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Speaker 1: an area of concern all the time, because there is

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Speaker 1: an expectation, of course that police, in their everyday lives

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Speaker 1: go and attend some pretty horrific and difficult situations. For many,

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Speaker 1: attending domestic violence incidents, assaults and road fatalities is all

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Speaker 1: just part of their day jobs, but for some it

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Speaker 1: does indeed have an accumulating impact that can have well

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Speaker 1: a dehabilitating impact eventually. So joining me in the studio

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Speaker 1: this morning are two police officers who I've known for

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Speaker 1: quite some time in fact, and I am joined right

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Speaker 1: now by Neil Hayes, who is indeed the superintendent within

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Speaker 1: the Northern Territory Police. Good morning to you, Neil, yeah,

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Speaker 1: very well, thank you. And Serge Boemer, Good morning to you, Sirge.

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Speaker 1: You are indeed senior sergeant, I should say now I've

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Speaker 1: known you for quite some time. In fact, you used

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Speaker 1: to come into the studio so many years ago every

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Speaker 1: second week and talk to us about the different road

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Speaker 1: incidents you know, happening around the place, and for a

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Speaker 1: while there you know I didn't see you for quite

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Speaker 1: some time, and I've got to say I didn't really

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Speaker 1: know why we didn't see you for quite some time,

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Speaker 1: but I've since learned that you suffered from PTSD.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, obviously I came in here and spoke to you

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Speaker 2: about the various road trauma and other road incidents on

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Speaker 2: a regular basis when I was the OIC of Darne

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Speaker 2: Traffic and even the Superintendent of Road Policing acting Superintendent.

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Speaker 2: And at that time I was still one of these

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Speaker 2: people that didn't have a lot of self awareness. I

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Speaker 2: joined the Northern Territory Police. Obviously I was mature age,

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Speaker 2: I was thirty, and I.

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Speaker 3: Was very excited about starting my career.

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Speaker 2: I went to Catherine, and I within a week of

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Speaker 2: of starting in Catherine, I was I went to a

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Speaker 2: fatal crash, laying in the front cabin of an upturned

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Speaker 2: van supporting a lady's head as she was dying. And

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Speaker 2: I at the time, I mean that was a traumatic experience,

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Speaker 2: obviously very traumatic for her family and the loved ones,

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Speaker 2: but also for the people that were there. But I

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Speaker 2: didn't realize that that was the case. I was just

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Speaker 2: doing my job and it really I guess activated a

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Speaker 2: passion in me pursuing crash investigation. So I chased that

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Speaker 2: for my early career and for a significant period of time,

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Speaker 2: which is how I ended up coming to you every

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Speaker 2: fortnight to talk to you about road policing. I went

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Speaker 2: to a myriad of crashes and at some point, I

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Speaker 2: again self awareness wasn't there, and I I had a

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Speaker 2: complete mental collapse. I was unable to function as a

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Speaker 2: police officer.

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Speaker 3: I was unable to.

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Speaker 2: Function as a member of society. I was unable to

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Speaker 2: function as a family member, really as a husband and father.

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Speaker 2: I I had nothing left, and that's why you stopped

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Speaker 2: seeing me. And it took me a long time and

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Speaker 2: a lot of therapy and a lot of help to

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Speaker 2: get to a point where I was able to eventually

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Speaker 2: go back to work and start a gradual return to work.

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Speaker 2: And now I'm happy to say that I'm fully back

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Speaker 2: at work.

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Speaker 3: With Neil's help. Where now.

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Speaker 2: Going and seeing our new recruits prior to going out

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Speaker 2: on the road, and I tell them the raw stuff

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Speaker 2: of my story and really encouraging them to remove the stigma,

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Speaker 2: because the stigma exists in individuals' heads and it's up

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Speaker 2: to them to really remove that stigma and start talking

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Speaker 2: to each other and start identifying when things are going

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Speaker 2: wrong or the person doesn't look quite right, and from

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Speaker 2: the other side when and I encourage them when they

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Speaker 2: are approached by someone who asks and if they're okay,

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Speaker 2: clearly those people have identified something.

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Speaker 3: You need to be open and receptive as well.

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Speaker 1: So it's you know, I can't imagine how difficult it

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Speaker 1: must be for, you know, for some of our offices

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Speaker 1: each and every day to see the different things that

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Speaker 1: you see. I often say, you know, you run towards

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Speaker 1: the danger when others are running away from it. And

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Speaker 1: I think that that's so well known within the community,

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Speaker 1: but very often we don't think about the you know,

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Speaker 1: the accumulating impact that that might have on our on

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Speaker 1: our police officers, on our frontline offices. You know, you

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Speaker 1: said that you'd reach that point where you know, you

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Speaker 1: couldn't you couldn't go to work anymore.

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Speaker 3: And I was on my way to work and I

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Speaker 3: couldn't make it in.

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Speaker 2: I literally I made it in, but I couldn't talk

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Speaker 2: to anyone.

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Speaker 3: I had nothing.

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Speaker 1: It must have been bloody hard for you then to

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Speaker 1: you know, like, when you've reached that point to sort

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Speaker 1: of go, shiit, what do I do now?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's what we're trying to get to. We're

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Speaker 2: trying to get to people and get people to be

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Speaker 2: self aware before it gets to that point, because when

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Speaker 2: it gets to that point, it gets really hard because

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Speaker 2: you can't talk to anyone, you don't know what's happening,

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Speaker 2: and you haven't identified any.

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Speaker 3: Of these things previously.

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Speaker 2: There were plenty of intervention points for me that I'm

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Speaker 2: now aware of in hindsight where someone else could have

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Speaker 2: jumped in. And I'm not blaming anyone else, and I

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Speaker 2: could have done something. I could have identified things, but

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Speaker 2: I just wasn't self aware, and you know, other people

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Speaker 2: may have been too scared to raise things with me.

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Speaker 2: My wife did raise things with me, but I sort

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Speaker 2: of fobbed it off. So yeah, I clawed my way back,

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Speaker 2: and it's possible, so.

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Speaker 1: You know, and it's it is wonderful, you know, to

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Speaker 1: hear that you did claw your way back and what

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Speaker 1: you've done, I think it's so incredibly strong and and admirable.

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Speaker 1: And I know that you know that you have had

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Speaker 1: the support of some of your co workers and and

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Speaker 1: you and well Neil Hayes do indeed talk to those

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Speaker 1: new recruits. Now, now you two have almost got a

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Speaker 1: bit of a bromance.

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Speaker 4: I've got to say, through.

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Speaker 1: Throughout the different times that I've that I've interviewed the

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Speaker 1: pair of you, there is no doubt that you get

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Speaker 1: along really well, you know, as colleagues. And and I've

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Speaker 1: no doubt that when you speak to those new recruits

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Speaker 1: as well, that it that it'd have quite an impact

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Speaker 1: on them hearing your story surge and then you know,

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Speaker 1: you're both sort of talking to them about making sure

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Speaker 1: that they do get that help and and and you know,

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Speaker 1: recognize those intervention points.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Look, Cadie, obviously I've worked with Search to the recruitment side,

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Speaker 5: and that's where we sort of form the friendship that

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Speaker 5: we've now got. It's not coworkers, you know, we're our friends.

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Speaker 5: And like Search said, watching the transformation from a couple

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Speaker 5: of days a week to him to where he was,

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Speaker 5: he was open and raw with me and honest a

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Speaker 5: couple of years ago and told me his story. And

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Speaker 5: I think we sort of formed that idea way back

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Speaker 5: when you know, at some point, do you think you

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Speaker 5: can say, you know, give this message so that someone

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Speaker 5: else doesn't have to go through what you're going through

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Speaker 5: so that we can try and educate so that it's

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Speaker 5: you know, we're not picking up the piece and trying

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Speaker 5: to put people back together. Let's try and get in

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Speaker 5: that preventative space in the early intervention. And you know,

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Speaker 5: to his credit, like to be on live radio and

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Speaker 5: to be being as raw as he is and to

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Speaker 5: stand in front of a room full of strangers and

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Speaker 5: to tell them in detail what he went through, he's amazing,

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Speaker 5: you know. So from my part, you know, it's a

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Speaker 5: matter of like, let's continue to spread that message because

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Speaker 5: it is. It's a challenging role. You know, we've both

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Speaker 5: been doing this a couple of decades now, so you know,

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Speaker 5: some people are able to go through and you see

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Speaker 5: the things.

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Speaker 4: But it may not have the same impact.

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Speaker 5: And we just want everyone that's in this field and

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Speaker 5: in the police find emergency service to have an open

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Speaker 5: mind that the support service is available, but it's not

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Speaker 5: normal to see the things that we see and that

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Speaker 5: you need to be aware you need to seek help

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Speaker 5: early otherwise things can fall apart. But we also want

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Speaker 5: to send that message that look, it may but there

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Speaker 5: is a road back. But you know you've got to

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Speaker 5: be open and engaged to it. But we've got to

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Speaker 5: remove that stigma. The stigma about it is what has

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Speaker 5: to go.

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Speaker 1: There's still some of that, you know, that stigma within

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Speaker 1: the force. You know that you that you do need

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Speaker 1: to be bulletproof.

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Speaker 2: You put that pressure on yourself. Yeah, you start as

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Speaker 2: a police officer. You're you're the strong person in the community.

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Speaker 2: You're the one that protects everyone. You're not the one

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Speaker 2: that's supposed to break. So I think that, like I said,

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Speaker 2: I think the stigma is something that exists inside people's

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Speaker 2: heads because you can't be that vulnerable because you have

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Speaker 2: to protect everyone else. And the truth is we're all

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Speaker 2: human beings and everyone is vulnerable at some point. And

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Speaker 2: I just really feel like if we can get people

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Speaker 2: to recognize that and say, you know what, mental health,

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Speaker 2: it's just like any other health problem.

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Speaker 3: And I don't particularly like the term PTSD.

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Speaker 2: I know internationally there's some push to change it to PtSi,

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Speaker 2: which is post traumatic stress injury, and I think it's

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Speaker 2: more fitting because I think if I think the word

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Speaker 2: disorder is stigmatizing in itself, so I think those sorts

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Speaker 2: of things are important as well to recognize it as

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Speaker 2: an injury, and I recognize it as an injury.

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Speaker 3: I could have done more had I been self aware.

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Speaker 5: We're getting better, we really are, Like from the changes

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Speaker 5: that I've seen across two decades of policing to around now.

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Speaker 5: The people are more open to talk and to see help,

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Speaker 5: which is great, but there's still a lot of work

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Speaker 5: to do. So yeah, there is still that you know,

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Speaker 5: this is just a uniform at the end of the day,

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Speaker 5: it's not a superman. So you know, we are vulnerable

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Speaker 5: were our people, and we as police need to recognize

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Speaker 5: that as well. But you know, I think the message

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Speaker 5: we're trying to push is that the new people coming through,

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Speaker 5: the people that you're sitting in the car alongside for

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Speaker 5: eight hours, you're going to be one that's going to

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Speaker 5: be noticing it against your peers, and to be open

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Speaker 5: and honest with it and so to get rid of

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Speaker 5: that stigma so they can hold that conversation and they

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Speaker 5: can take care of each other.

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Speaker 4: You know, you've got your ru ok, but you've got

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Speaker 4: to mean it.

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Speaker 5: You've actually and if someone says it to you've got

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Speaker 5: to be able to respond to. Surge said it's throw

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Speaker 5: away lines. We need to talk so you know, as

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Speaker 5: soon as we can get rid of that stigma and

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Speaker 5: start helping each other. And it's not just our industry,

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Speaker 5: but you know, it's.

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Speaker 1: Well exactly right. You know, it's across the board, and

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Speaker 1: you know, and I know that it is something that

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Speaker 1: I don't know why.

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Speaker 4: I know.

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Speaker 1: It's like I know it is difficult for women as

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Speaker 1: well to talk about these types of issues, but for

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Speaker 1: some reason, it seems to be more difficult for men.

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Speaker 1: And you know, it is like it's something that I

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Speaker 1: that men's health is something that I'm really passionate about.

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, well, everybody is so important within

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Speaker 1: our communities, but blokes are so important within our communities

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Speaker 1: that you've really got to make sure that you do

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Speaker 1: look after yourselves and look after each other. But you know,

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Speaker 1: then when you talk more so about the police force,

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Speaker 1: what you face each and every day can be incredibly tough.

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Speaker 1: I know there'll be some police officers listening this morning,

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Speaker 1: and you know they might be getting to that point

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Speaker 1: of struggling if they are listening this morning. I mean, really,

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Speaker 1: what is that message for them?

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Speaker 4: Speak up? That's the short thing.

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Speaker 5: Like I think, you know, Surge will tell you, you know,

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Speaker 5: you just need to ask for help or be open

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Speaker 5: to it and have a look at yourself and see

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Speaker 5: if you are really at that point open it. Because

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Speaker 5: the support service is available both inside and outside of

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Speaker 5: the police force. We just need to make sure that

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Speaker 5: people are open to actually access them because you might

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Speaker 5: be that early intervention point.

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Speaker 4: Look for that in other people, you know, and.

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Speaker 2: There are ways back, you know, hopefully not from as

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Speaker 2: far as I went.

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Speaker 3: But we're not going to throw people out. We want

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Speaker 3: to help people.

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Speaker 5: And I think that's a really strong message from Surge

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Speaker 5: in particular. He works in recruitment, so for everything that

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Speaker 5: he's been through to still be as positive as he

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Speaker 5: is and the message and he still openly brings people

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Speaker 5: into this industry because, like I say, we love it.

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Speaker 5: It's a rewarding job. And I think he said it

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Speaker 5: on your show before you know. Don't tell his wife,

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Speaker 5: but he'd do it for free. Now, this is someone

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Speaker 5: that's spent a long time out of the role because

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Speaker 5: of the stresses and things that did cause. But we

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Speaker 5: don't throw away. We want people. We invest heavily in

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Speaker 5: our police officers, Surge the great police officer. We want

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Speaker 5: them to come back. But your only way wing to

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Speaker 5: do it is to work together and be open minded

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Speaker 5: to it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and look, I know that there is some discussion

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Speaker 1: behind the scenes at the moment on some of those

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Speaker 1: different measures which are going to be implemented by the

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Speaker 1: Northern Territory Police in this space, and we'll talk about those,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure in coming days and weeks. But look, this morning,

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Speaker 1: I really appreciate you both joining me in the studio.

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Speaker 1: I know that it's not easy to talk about, particularly

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Speaker 1: you know, those really low points in your life. I

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Speaker 1: think it's really brave, Surge, but you don't need me

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Speaker 1: to tell you that, mate, I really appreciate you both

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Speaker 1: coming in this morning. Surge BYM and Neil Hayes. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for having a chat with me.

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Speaker 4: Thank you very much. Thank you