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Speaker 1: It's their Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: wants answers Now.

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Speaker 1: A few months ago, on The Happy Family's podcast, we

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Speaker 1: talked about the proposed social media bands for children under

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Speaker 1: the age of sixteen. If you missed the news on Friday,

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Speaker 1: those bands were rushed through federal Parliament with bipartisan support.

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Speaker 1: The opposition joined with the government to make sure that

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Speaker 1: the bands, or the legislation for the bands would be

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Speaker 1: carried it has been. Now I want to highlight at

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Speaker 1: the outset this legislation. I think has been rushed. There

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Speaker 1: are definitely some concerns with it, so much so that

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Speaker 1: the National Children's Commissioner, Ann Hollands has written publicly about

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Speaker 1: those concerns. Nevertheless, nevertheless, I think that they've done the

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Speaker 1: right thing. Those other concerns can be sorted out in

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Speaker 1: the wake in the aftermath of this. I know that

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Speaker 1: there are concerns about government overreach. They've got to make

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Speaker 1: sure they get this right so that adults are not penalized.

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Speaker 1: We've got to be protecting children anyway. Like I said

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Speaker 1: a little while ago, we discussed the proposed social media

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Speaker 1: bands on the podcast, it's still relevant everything that I

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Speaker 1: said I still agree with and I wanted to replay

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Speaker 1: that episode for you to help you to consider how

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Speaker 1: those new laws are going to affect your family. Twelve

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Speaker 1: months till it all kicks off, but this will give

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Speaker 1: you a good idea of what we're now in for.

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Speaker 1: Australian kids are going to be blocked from social media

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Speaker 1: until they reach a certain age under a national plant.

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Speaker 1: It's target growing concerns around its impacts on young minds. Today,

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Speaker 1: our conversation on the Happy Families podcast is about what

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Speaker 1: the olben Ezy government is committing to in terms of

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Speaker 1: legislation on social media age limits. This stems from South

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Speaker 1: Australia's Peter Melanascus I hope he said said his name

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Speaker 1: correctly making a lot of noise about this recently, there's

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Speaker 1: been a lot of campaigns. I've been pushing it pretty

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Speaker 1: hard myself and today on the podcast a conversation about this.

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Speaker 1: There are some people who have compared potential restrictions on

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Speaker 1: the technology to cigarettes and alcohol, because we're seeing more

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Speaker 1: and more evidence that as social media is harmful to children.

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Speaker 1: I was on a Current Affair with Ali Langdon and

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Speaker 1: a bunch of other people last Tuesday night, and I

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Speaker 1: want to share with you some clips from that as

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Speaker 1: we go through this. But first off, a couple of

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Speaker 1: things around this. We already do have social media age limits.

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Speaker 1: It's supposed to be thirteen and up. The thing is

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Speaker 1: nobody's keeping it. Nobody's well, I shouldn't say nobody. The

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Speaker 1: overwhelming majority of people are not sticking with those age limits.

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Speaker 1: I had a dad recently who had a seven year

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Speaker 1: old on TikTok, and dad said, is that okay? Or

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Speaker 1: should I get them off? I was like, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: they need to be off. There is a reason that

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Speaker 1: thirteen is the minimum age for access to these social platforms.

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Speaker 1: And unfortunately that reason, while it's thirteen is better than seven,

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Speaker 1: it's got nothing to do with your children's well being.

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Speaker 1: It's got nothing to do with your children's cognitive or

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Speaker 1: psychological or emotional capacity to deal with what's happening on

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Speaker 1: social media. If we were taking those things into consideration,

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Speaker 1: a lot of adults would not be allowed on social media.

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Speaker 1: So why the age of thirteen as it now exists.

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Speaker 1: Let's start there. Back in the late nineteen nineties, before

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Speaker 1: social media was a thing, the tech companies were lobbying

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Speaker 1: the United States Congress. Most of the tech companies, of course,

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Speaker 1: are based in the United States. They were lobbying Congress

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Speaker 1: because the US Congress is where the legislative requirements for

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Speaker 1: what they do are centered around what the age of

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Speaker 1: Internet maturity should be. And Congress basically said, well, what

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Speaker 1: are you asking for, And they said, well, we're going

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Speaker 1: to be collecting personal data about the people who are

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Speaker 1: using our products when they're using them on the Internet,

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Speaker 1: on this new world Wide Web thing that's been developed.

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Speaker 1: Congress said, well, age of a data collection for personal

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Speaker 1: private details should probably be somewhere between sixteen and eighteen.

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Speaker 1: And the lobbyists, because they have deep pockets and because

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Speaker 1: not all politicians are focused primarily on what is the

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Speaker 1: common good, Well, the lobbyists one and the age of

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Speaker 1: twelve was decided, so twelve and under not allowed to

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Speaker 1: collect data. Thirteen and up. Tech companies collect data. That's

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Speaker 1: the only reason at thirteen is the number that's been selected.

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Speaker 1: Of course, over time we've seen massive changes in technology

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Speaker 1: and social media is at the very core of this conversation.

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Speaker 1: What's cure is to me around this is that we've decided,

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Speaker 1: thanks to people like Jonathan Hate who wrote The Anxious Generation,

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Speaker 1: and many other people who have been waving the flag

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Speaker 1: and saying this is bad for our kids. We've decided

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Speaker 1: that that age needs to be lifted, but we don't

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Speaker 1: really have great information, We don't have great evidence for

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Speaker 1: what it should be. The federal government has bipartisan support

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Speaker 1: on raising the age. That is Anthony Alberenzi and the

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Speaker 1: Labor Party have Peter Dutton and the Liberal Party on board.

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Speaker 1: That's fantastic, right. It means that whoever gets voted in

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Speaker 1: next year, we're going to start to see some changes

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Speaker 1: around this regardless. And on an issue like this, this

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Speaker 1: shouldn't come down to politics. This should come down to

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Speaker 1: the safety of our children. So well done to both

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Speaker 1: the major parties on this particular issue. The issue though,

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Speaker 1: becomes what a is going to be the legal requirement,

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Speaker 1: and that has not been identified. Neither the opposition nor

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Speaker 1: the government have told us that, but the whispers are

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Speaker 1: that it's going to be somewhere around about sixteen. Now.

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Speaker 1: Our experience in our happy families family with me and

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Speaker 1: Kylie and our six daughters has told us that this

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Speaker 1: is a thing. We can look at data all day

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Speaker 1: long and darted certainly points in the direction that some

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Speaker 1: children really do struggle and suffer as a result of

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Speaker 1: social media. But when we've watched what happens with our children,

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Speaker 1: I think that's been the big thing. I said this

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Speaker 1: on a current affair. The American thinker and writer and

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Speaker 1: academic Jonathan Hayite wrote a book called The Anxious Generation,

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Speaker 1: and in that book he talks about how, over the

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Speaker 1: last couple of decades, we've moved from what you would

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Speaker 1: call a play based childhood to a screen based childhood,

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Speaker 1: and what, unfortunately we see across our young people is

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Speaker 1: a decline in well being because they really truly believe

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Speaker 1: that they're getting their needs met by being on that screen.

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Speaker 1: It's a hollow imitation, but it makes them feel so

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Speaker 1: good in the moment, and so any parent who's trying

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Speaker 1: to have some sort of boundaries and limits around this

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Speaker 1: will come up against tremendous opposition because to the kids,

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Speaker 1: it just feels so so good. What we've seen in

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Speaker 1: our family and in the families of those that we're

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Speaker 1: close to, is that kids get less sleep. They're sleep deprived,

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Speaker 1: so they're more moody and irritable. They're more likely to

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Speaker 1: be withdrawn. They're less likely to be social and engaged

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Speaker 1: with the family or even with their friends. The connections

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Speaker 1: that they have online are shallow and hollow relative to

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Speaker 1: the connections that we have face to face and in

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Speaker 1: real life rather than in the virtual world. There's academic outcomes,

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Speaker 1: there's an academic slide when kids are focused on their screen.

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Speaker 1: And every parent that I talk to, literally every parent says, yeah,

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Speaker 1: attitude changes when the kids have been on screens too long.

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Speaker 1: When they go outside and they get some nature into

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Speaker 1: their lives, they suddenly become nicer people. I think that

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Speaker 1: I would sum it up by saying, there is an

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Speaker 1: urgency around protecting young minds, and that's why this legislation matters.

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Speaker 1: I feel like we've lost the generation. Does it discriminate

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Speaker 1: or is everybody affected you there's a huge amount of discrimination.

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Speaker 1: What research seems to show, and it's fairly fledgling research,

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Speaker 1: it's quite nascent, but research seems to show that kids

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Speaker 1: who have a really strong, positive, healthy life outside the

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Speaker 1: screen seem to do reasonably well when they're on screens

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Speaker 1: as well. But kids who have any kinds of offscreen struggles,

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Speaker 1: they retreat to their screens and that only amplifies and

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Speaker 1: exacerbates the offscreen struggles, but it also invites a whole

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Speaker 1: lot of other challenges because they're so embedded in their

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Speaker 1: screen life, their social media life. Yeah, a lot of people,

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Speaker 1: and this was one of the things that came up

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Speaker 1: on a current affair. I want to play you this snippet. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'd love to bring in Gabby and Matilda here. I

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Speaker 1: want you to explain to me your relationship with social

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Speaker 1: media and your phone.

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Speaker 2: I think, honestly, I'm pretty good relationship with social media

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Speaker 2: on my phone. Obviously, it is a big part of

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Speaker 2: my life, as it is a lot of other young people.

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Speaker 2: But I think the main use that I use it

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Speaker 2: for is connecting with my friends and family, and I

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Speaker 2: think that it allows me to have that connection even

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Speaker 2: if I'm not physically there with them.

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Speaker 1: So, Gabby, do you think you have a healthy relationship

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Speaker 1: with social media.

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Speaker 3: I think it's fairly healthy. I do use my phone

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Speaker 3: quite a bit, but I do set limits on there

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Speaker 3: as well, because I know I need to try to

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Speaker 3: regulate myself. I mean, every now and then I do

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Speaker 3: find myself in that dreaded doom scroll and just scrolling

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Speaker 3: and only just that, but I think it's mostly healthy. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I'm mostly just talking to friends having a good time.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: When I listen to those two wonderful girls, what I

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Speaker 1: hear stories of self regulation. I hear examples of self

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Speaker 1: awareness and a willingness to pause, think about the way

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Speaker 1: that these tools and technologies are being used, and then

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Speaker 1: be intentional moving forward. They're really good examples of why

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Speaker 1: this ban or why this change might be problematic. And

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Speaker 1: I want to, like, I'm really upfront about it. I

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Speaker 1: don't think that this is necessary for everybody, in the

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Speaker 1: same way that I don't think that gambling laws are

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Speaker 1: necessary for everybody, or alcohol laws are necessary for everybody.

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Speaker 1: Why because there's plenty of people that honestly, they love

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Speaker 1: to gamble. I mean, I think gambling it's not for me.

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Speaker 1: I've never even put a dollar into the Poky's or

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Speaker 1: had a punt on the Melbourne Cup. I'm not a gambler.

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Speaker 1: I've got other things that I would rather do with

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Speaker 1: my cash. But I know several people who gamble. They

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Speaker 1: love it, and they don't have a problem with it.

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Speaker 1: There's no there's no hiding, there's no huge financial loss.

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Speaker 1: They really they set aside some money and they go

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Speaker 1: to the casino or they go to the races and

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Speaker 1: they have fun and it makes it more fun for them.

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Speaker 1: I get that. I don't endorse it, I don't encourage it,

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Speaker 1: but I get it. And it's the same with alcohol.

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Speaker 1: In spite of that, though, we still have laws around that.

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Speaker 1: Why because we know that harm is done to too

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Speaker 1: great a percentage of the population if we don't have laws.

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Speaker 1: An obstacle to the laws is that many people can

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Speaker 1: do it safely and it's unfair for them. I get

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Speaker 1: that when it's well used, it makes sense, but we've

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Speaker 1: got to draw a line in the sand. And when

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Speaker 1: we draw that line in the sand, it gives parents

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Speaker 1: the power to say to their kids, I know you

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Speaker 1: want this, I know it matters to you, but guess

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Speaker 1: what the government said, No, it's actually against the law.

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Speaker 1: Another obstacle is that big tech are probably going to

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Speaker 1: mount legal challenges to it. The technology is everywhere, it's pervasive,

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Speaker 1: so it's going to be really hard to get people off.

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Speaker 1: It's to be it's going to be one of those

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Speaker 1: things that's a really big challenge, and parents are going

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Speaker 1: to have to be responsible, I mean, enforceability on this

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Speaker 1: is going to be very, very tricky. I believe that

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Speaker 1: what's really going to be necessary is that technology will

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Speaker 1: need to be developed once the legislation is passed, where

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Speaker 1: there's some sort of neutral third party so that we're

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Speaker 1: not giving our personal details to the tech platforms, but

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Speaker 1: there's a government built technology third party platform that communicates

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Speaker 1: with the tech platforms. So we prove our identity through

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Speaker 1: the government platform, and then the government sends through the

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Speaker 1: little blue tick or the little green tick to the

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Speaker 1: tech platform that says this person is who they say

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Speaker 1: they are and they are of age to me. That's

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Speaker 1: what I think the tech will needs to be. That's

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Speaker 1: going to take years to develop, which means that we

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Speaker 1: still have to deal with this stuff at home in

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Speaker 1: our living rooms with our kids until this gets sorted out.

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Speaker 1: The thing is this matters. I mean, this really matters

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Speaker 1: for the well being of our children and young people.

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Speaker 1: This matters. Social media is the new smoking, and just

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Speaker 1: like it took decades for all the data to be

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Speaker 1: collected so that we could really look at this and

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Speaker 1: say smoking is killing people, this is bad for you,

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Speaker 1: It's going to take a while yet before we have

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Speaker 1: all the data that we need to move in this direction,

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Speaker 1: but I throw a big haymaker on a current affair.

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Speaker 1: This is what I had to say about what the

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Speaker 1: tech company is responsible for. I can't help but think

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Speaker 1: that Zuckerberg and the CEOs, the titans of social media industry,

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Speaker 1: are responsible for more human suffering among our young people

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Speaker 1: today than pretty much at any point in human history.

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Speaker 1: I just don't think that there's been any kind of

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Speaker 1: technology that's created this level of suffering in our youth.

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Speaker 1: It's absolutely abysmal. And if I can say this a

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Speaker 1: little bit directly, our feckless politicians who have allowed this

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Speaker 1: to happen at a global level have got a lot

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Speaker 1: of it, a lot to answer for as well the

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Speaker 1: lack of legislation around this. We're just going to introduce

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Speaker 1: this thing and will find proof of harm later. I

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Speaker 1: think that we need to be able to prove that

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Speaker 1: there's a good here before we let people just go

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Speaker 1: for it. And these stories, especially Kim's story, highlight what

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Speaker 1: so many parents are telling me, and that is that

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Speaker 1: social media as a general issue is absolutely at the

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Speaker 1: heart out of so much sleep deprivation, so much conflict,

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Speaker 1: so much school avoidance, so much bullying, so much mental

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Speaker 1: health challenge, and the list goes on and on and on.

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Speaker 1: Jonathan Hate says this best when he describes in his

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Speaker 1: book The Anxious Generation that we've moved from a play

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Speaker 1: based childhood to a screen based childhood, and obviously I

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Speaker 1: emphasize that on a current affair as well. Beyond this, though,

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Speaker 1: there are a couple of other things that we need

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Speaker 1: to consider, and I really hope the government are going

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Speaker 1: to do this. They've indicated that they want to hold

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Speaker 1: tech companies accountable for the full spectrum of harm that

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Speaker 1: happens on social media platforms because they facilitate and allow

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Speaker 1: scams and fake news and body shaming and other harmful

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Speaker 1: practices that I won't go into in this podcast. I

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Speaker 1: want to keep it reasonably light. I know it's a

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Speaker 1: very policy discussion today. It's a bit wonky from a

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Speaker 1: policy perspective, but the government is doing the right thing here.

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Speaker 1: I don't really like government interference. Really think that people

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Speaker 1: should be left to make up their own mind about

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Speaker 1: most things and make their own decisions as much as possible.

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Speaker 1: But I also recognize that there is a need for

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Speaker 1: government intervention and if companies cannot adhere to appropriate practices,

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Speaker 1: that consider the well being of our population. We need

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Speaker 1: to make sure that there are rules for those who

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Speaker 1: are going to conduct business in Australia. They're going to

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Speaker 1: take responsibility for the social and the commercial damage that

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Speaker 1: they cause, the emotional, the psychological damage that they cause.

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Speaker 1: I just think this matters so much. So what do

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Speaker 1: we do right now? Is there anything else that I

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Speaker 1: need to bring up and talk about? Just two things

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Speaker 1: beyond those age limits, which is what I've just talked about.

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Speaker 1: What I would encourage you to do as a parent

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Speaker 1: is to jump online and send an email, like literally

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Speaker 1: a three line email to your government representative and just

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Speaker 1: say I heard this on a podcast, I read it

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Speaker 1: in the news. I just want to say I'm right

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Speaker 1: behind this. I want to see this happen for the

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Speaker 1: safety of my kids and for the safety of our

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Speaker 1: society's kids. If you just send them that email, it

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Speaker 1: will take you about two minutes to do it. Just

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Speaker 1: that will make a difference. Why because it raises their

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Speaker 1: awareness of what their constituency wants. In addition, though, because

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Speaker 1: this will take a while, it's got to be legislated.

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Speaker 1: The legislation has got to be built, it's got to

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Speaker 1: be put together. Well, there's going to be challenges to it.

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Speaker 1: Once it finally gets through, technology is going to have

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Speaker 1: to be developed. This will not be a quick thing.

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Speaker 1: This is going to take a few years a few

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Speaker 1: years to get off the ground. In the meantime, we've

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Speaker 1: got to protect our kids, which means that while we

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Speaker 1: need government to do the heavy lifting around the legislative challenges,

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Speaker 1: we've actually got to put it into place in our homes.

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Speaker 1: That tells me that if you've got a seven year

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Speaker 1: old that wants to be on TikTok, you need to

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Speaker 1: say no, or if you've got a twelve year old,

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Speaker 1: say no. I've got a website where I'm not trying

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Speaker 1: to sell you anything. It's literally just a website that

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Speaker 1: says we need to unplugged childhood. The website's called Unplugged

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Speaker 1: Childhood dot org. I'll link to it in the show notes.

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Speaker 1: Unplug childhood dot org. A couple of really simple principles

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Speaker 1: that are there. Number One, we want to remember that

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Speaker 1: kids don't need smart phones, they need smart parents, and

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Speaker 1: smart parents give their kids dumb phones. Your children don't

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Speaker 1: need to be on social media, they don't need to

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Speaker 1: have all of the functionality and accessibility of a supercomputer

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Speaker 1: in their pocket. They just need a dumb phone if

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Speaker 1: you're concerned for their safety or you want them to

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Speaker 1: be able to contact you if something's going on and

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Speaker 1: they're not going to be in your presence. Number two,

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Speaker 1: keep kids off social media for as long as you can.

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Speaker 1: I would recommend that you just practice the delayed principle.

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Speaker 1: Talk to them about the things that I've talked about

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Speaker 1: on the podcast today and let them know you want

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Speaker 1: them to wait until they're at least thirteen, but you

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Speaker 1: prefer it to be fourteen or fifteen or sixteen, and

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Speaker 1: you might even come up with some incentives in some

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Speaker 1: ways that you can help them to do that and

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Speaker 1: still feel like they're not missing out, because that fear

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Speaker 1: of missing out is massive, Which brings me to the

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Speaker 1: third and final point. The easiest way to do that

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Speaker 1: is to build a great community with the other parents

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Speaker 1: that are involved, the parents who are the parents of

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Speaker 1: kids You're children are friends with. Gee I said that

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Speaker 1: in a challenging way. Let me try that again. Your kids' friends.

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Speaker 1: Talk to their parents, create some community, get to know them,

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Speaker 1: send them texts, arrange for the kids to get together,

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Speaker 1: send them down to the park, make sure that everybody

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Speaker 1: knows where they are, give them some freedom, let them

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Speaker 1: go back to a play based childhood for as long

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Speaker 1: as possible. That's what I was trying to say. More

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Speaker 1: information is available at Unplugged childhood dot org. Look, this

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Speaker 1: is a good news story. It's going to take a while.

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Speaker 1: I don't think anything's going to happen in a hurry.

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Speaker 1: But we've got a government who is finally saying we

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Speaker 1: will stand up to technology companies. We will legislate, We're

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Speaker 1: going to stop being feckless. We're going to stop cow

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Speaker 1: telling to the big tech and start doing something to

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Speaker 1: protect children and young people. There will be people who

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Speaker 1: are opposed to it, and they'll make good arguments, many

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Speaker 1: of which I'm sympathetic to. But ultimately I think that

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Speaker 1: the greater good, the common good of our children, needs

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Speaker 1: to come first. And that's where we're up to right now.

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Speaker 1: In terms of this news. Tomorrow on the Pod school

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Speaker 1: Readiness how to prep your kids for big school if

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Speaker 1: you've got a little one who is off for their

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Speaker 1: first year of school next year, we're talking with Zoe Rag.

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Speaker 1: Zoe Rags, an educator who specializes in this very thing.

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Speaker 1: That's on the Happy Families podcast, which is produced by

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Speaker 1: Justin Rulin from Bridge Media.