Speaker 1: What would you do if your boss suggested that you
Speaker 1: cut your working hours down to just four normal length days,
Speaker 1: but said to you, I'll still pay you for five.
Speaker 1: Would you pitch yourself to check that you weren't dreaming? Well,
Speaker 1: this is exactly what happened last April at Inventium. Our
Speaker 1: CEO Michelle La Poidevin or Misha's I call her, suggested
Speaker 1: to the team that we should try out the four
Speaker 1: day week. This led to us running a six month
Speaker 1: experiment where the team all worked four days per week
Speaker 1: and had Fridays off. And as a participant in this experiment,
Speaker 1: I can tell you it was bloody awesome. And today
Speaker 1: we are going to learn exactly why Mish even suggested
Speaker 1: this idea and how she manages to be a CEO
Speaker 1: in just four normal length working days a week. My
Speaker 1: name is doctor Ramantha Inba, an organizational psychologist and the
Speaker 1: founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and this is how
Speaker 1: I work a show about how to help you do
Speaker 1: your best work. Now, you might have heard my chat
Speaker 1: with Inventium's head of Learning, Charlotte Rash last week where
Speaker 1: we got into the nitty gritty details of how our
Speaker 1: four day week experiment worked what we measured, and we
Speaker 1: also addressed what some of the skeptics might be thinking.
Speaker 1: So go back and have a listen to that show
Speaker 1: if you're keen to go deep into the four day
Speaker 1: week concept. And today in my chat with Mish, we
Speaker 1: talk about how on earth do you lead a business
Speaker 1: where people only work four days but we pay them
Speaker 1: for five, and how do we balance the need to
Speaker 1: collaborate with also working super efficiently, and what the biggest
Speaker 1: challenges have been in actually making the four day week work.
Speaker 1: So it was actually your idea to put forward the
Speaker 1: four day week for Inventium. Can you tell me why
Speaker 1: you decided to put it forward when we were thinking
Speaker 1: about how to I think our challenge was make eight
Speaker 1: great because we had reduced ourselves to a team of
Speaker 1: eight at the time.
Speaker 2: I think the three main reasons I would say that
Speaker 2: I felt that four day week was particularly good for
Speaker 2: Inventium was first of all, around staff retention.
Speaker 3: So, as we say, it was born out of the
Speaker 3: challenge of how to make eight great?
Speaker 2: And like all businesses need to be doing everything we
Speaker 2: can do to attract and retrain the brightles people, but
Speaker 2: we also want to ensure that they're doing their best work.
Speaker 2: And I think that this is the real beauty of
Speaker 2: four day week is that it's not just another perk.
Speaker 3: It's not a gym membership, or it's not just something
Speaker 3: that's nice to have. It actually empowers people to change
Speaker 3: and to do their best work. The second thing with.
Speaker 2: That is around trust. So trust has also been really
Speaker 2: big at Inventium, and I see four day week as
Speaker 2: a wonderful display of that trust and really empowering for
Speaker 2: our employees. And then the third thing I would say
Speaker 2: is that four day week is really all about outcomes
Speaker 2: over hours. And I know that Stanford, you did a
Speaker 2: study that found the overworked employees are actually much less
Speaker 2: productive in terms of output that employees working an average.
Speaker 3: Or normal week, and that is.
Speaker 2: Likely due to increases in fatigue and stress, which may
Speaker 2: also result in increases in mistakes or poorer quality of work,
Speaker 2: which essentially will further negate any perceived productivity gains of
Speaker 2: working those longer hours. So ultimately, so much time is
Speaker 2: wasted in a typical working day, and four day week
Speaker 2: is about minimizing that and getting people to focus on
Speaker 2: the stuff that matters and not the clock.
Speaker 1: Now, The other thing that you were responsible for is
Speaker 1: the name of the initiative, So we deliberately didn't call
Speaker 1: it Inventiums for a Day Week, although that is what
Speaker 1: a lot of organizations call it around the world, the
Speaker 1: four day week. We called it something else. Can you
Speaker 1: talk about what the name was that you came up with?
Speaker 1: And I will add that we did crowdsources to the
Speaker 1: whole team, but just so happened your name was best
Speaker 1: and why you thought of his name.
Speaker 2: So we decided to call it the Gift of the
Speaker 2: Fifth And I feel like that's a name that really
Speaker 2: reflects the intent of the initiative rather than all of
Speaker 2: the instructions or prescriptive behaviors you want behind it. So
Speaker 2: essentially what it's reflective of is the fact that it's
Speaker 2: a gift we are giving our people so that they
Speaker 2: can potentially spend more time with their family, more time
Speaker 2: with their friends.
Speaker 3: More time in their community. They can spend more time
Speaker 3: on themselves in personal development or reading or anything they like.
Speaker 3: But essentially, it's a gift, So treat it that way,
Speaker 3: really value it, really make the most of it, and
Speaker 3: make sure that they are kind of changing their behaviors
Speaker 3: in the week to ensure that they can take on
Speaker 3: that gift, that they can accept that gift every Friday.
Speaker 3: So I think that that was an important thing for
Speaker 3: to do that.
Speaker 2: It's not just kind of another day off where we
Speaker 2: want you all kind of sitting at home chilling out.
Speaker 3: I mean, you might want to do that occasionally, but
Speaker 3: treat it as.
Speaker 2: A gift where you can really do something valuable with
Speaker 2: it for yourself or for others around you.
Speaker 1: I think that's so important because what I would say
Speaker 1: we've learned an inventive through trying out all sorts of
Speaker 1: unusual staff benefits, is that it's really easy for these
Speaker 1: things to get taken for granted. And I'd say that's
Speaker 1: certainly what happened three and a half years on with
Speaker 1: unlimited leave, when you know.
Speaker 4: It worked really well for about three years.
Speaker 1: And then I think in that third year, I think
Speaker 1: that there was a bit of people taking it for
Speaker 1: granted and not quite using it in line with the
Speaker 1: intent of the policy.
Speaker 4: Would you agree with that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would, And I think it's good to note
Speaker 3: as well.
Speaker 2: So we've actually superseded that initiative with the four day week,
Speaker 2: which is a good learning in itself that we should
Speaker 2: always be continually reviewing all of these practices and ensuring
Speaker 2: that it best meets the needs of the business and
Speaker 2: all of us as individuals as well.
Speaker 1: Now at a Ventium we run a holocracy, which means
Speaker 1: that we don't have managers per se. But having said that,
Speaker 1: as CEO, Mishu still are the one that sits down
Speaker 1: with everyone in the business once a quarter and works
Speaker 1: with them on seeing how they're tracking towards their goals.
Speaker 4: And you give them feedback during this process.
Speaker 1: And I want to know for you, how now that
Speaker 1: people are doing a four day week and this is
Speaker 1: a permanent thing, how do you assess if people on
Speaker 1: track in terms of their productivity Because one of the
Speaker 1: key things behind the four day week is one hundred
Speaker 1: percent productivity but using eighty percent time.
Speaker 2: So it is a little bit trickier in the inconsultancies
Speaker 2: and as knowledge workers in that we could really put
Speaker 2: this key daily or weekly metric on productivity, you know,
Speaker 2: things like generating ten reports in the week or you
Speaker 2: know x number of sales. Having said that, people need
Speaker 2: clear guidance around this to feel comfortable that they can
Speaker 2: take the day without any guilt.
Speaker 3: So while it is a trust system, they absolutely do.
Speaker 2: Need these boundaries and parameters to feel like they are
Speaker 2: empowered to take the day without feeling guilty about that.
Speaker 3: So I think that the key.
Speaker 2: Thing here is to look big picture, and given one
Speaker 2: of the major premises of four day week is to
Speaker 2: increase effectiveness, the structure we put in place around this
Speaker 2: ladders up to our company goals. So this is ensuring
Speaker 2: that employees have a real connection to our greater purpose,
Speaker 2: which is really critical as this is what will essentially
Speaker 2: tap into their intrinsic motivators and really empower them to
Speaker 2: manage their workload accordingly. So in terms of how I
Speaker 2: assess whether we are being productive or not, basically it
Speaker 2: is looking at our company goals, which ladder down to
Speaker 2: individual level operas or KPIs, which I do review every
Speaker 2: quarter as you said, but also I meet with some
Speaker 2: people more informally more frequently as well, and most people
Speaker 2: in the team have broken these down into monthly, weekly,
Speaker 2: and sometimes daily goals. But essentially I use those quarterly
Speaker 2: check ins to make sure the individuals are on track,
Speaker 2: and I also use all of my company level data
Speaker 2: and reporting to assess more frequently whether we are still
Speaker 2: on track.
Speaker 1: And just to clarify for those that don't know what
Speaker 1: an opera isn't we adapted that to ourselves. We mean
Speaker 1: the Google slash Intel OKRs, objective and key results. We
Speaker 1: add activities onto the end, hence oper Now company goals
Speaker 1: can you give people a sense We obviously don't have
Speaker 1: to specifically say what our company goals are, but just
Speaker 1: the categories of company goals that we are tracking to
Speaker 1: go yet where we're on track from a productivity point
Speaker 1: of view, or we're falling behind. So we do have
Speaker 1: our typical financial metrics which are fairly easy to track
Speaker 1: to see whether we.
Speaker 3: Are falling behind. We've also got our client experience metrics.
Speaker 2: We've also got our employee experience metrics, and we also
Speaker 2: have another one around staff tenure, which is a really
Speaker 2: important one.
Speaker 3: Obviously that four day.
Speaker 2: Week contributes to as well, but essentially, as a team,
Speaker 2: if we're meeting our company goals, then I'm personally more
Speaker 2: than satisfied that everyone is working on the right things
Speaker 2: because I know that they are all linked and that
Speaker 2: I can more than justify a full day week.
Speaker 1: I want to get into some of the nitty gritty
Speaker 1: around how we do things and maybe how we've changed
Speaker 1: things so that we can as an organization fit five
Speaker 1: days into four. And I think meetings are something that
Speaker 1: can eat up a lot of time in a lot
Speaker 1: of organizations and cause a lot of pain and fatigue.
Speaker 1: Can you talk about what we do at Inventing with
Speaker 1: regard to meetings that help us use that time productively?
Speaker 2: As you say, massive, massive time suck for many, many people.
Speaker 2: And I'd say that the two key things that Inventings
Speaker 2: really focused on, particularly over the last twelve months in
Speaker 2: terms of minimizing meetings are that we do a payo
Speaker 2: or a purpose, agenda and outcomes for any meetings that
Speaker 2: go in the diary. So that means that before we
Speaker 2: send somebody a meeting request, we have to actually sit
Speaker 2: down and go what is the purpose, what is the agenda,
Speaker 2: and what are the outcomes that we are wanting from
Speaker 2: this meeting?
Speaker 3: And often what happens with.
Speaker 2: That is that when you sit down to actually do that,
Speaker 2: you go, oh, that might not need to even be
Speaker 2: a meeting, or that might actually be only ten minutes,
Speaker 2: rather than defaulting to that typical hour that the Google
Speaker 2: Calendar sets for us. So that's one thing that's really
Speaker 2: kind of cut down the amount of meetings. The other
Speaker 2: thing is that we've really focused on moving to to
Speaker 2: asynchronous communication style, so that's also been big in taking
Speaker 2: a lot of meetings out of the diary. So this
Speaker 2: means that quite often we will instead of chatting about
Speaker 2: something for an hour over a meeting, we will collaborate
Speaker 2: in a Google doc and input all our own thoughts
Speaker 2: and collaborating writing in our own time rather than jumping
Speaker 2: straight to a meeting. And I think that that's also
Speaker 2: been really effective at minimizing the number of meetings that
Speaker 2: go in the diary.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and something that we did recently is we formally
Speaker 1: articulated what our communication values and ways of working as
Speaker 1: a team, and do we as a team default to
Speaker 1: synchronous or asynchronous communication which basically means non live asynchronous
Speaker 1: so via email for example, or synchronous which is essentially
Speaker 1: live communication as you do in a meeting or a
Speaker 1: phone chat or something like that. And we really agreed
Speaker 1: as a team that asynchronous was the default for us,
Speaker 1: and that's really important. And I think for me, what
Speaker 1: I find when I'm thinking about setting a meeting and
Speaker 1: I sit down to do a Payoh, what will often
Speaker 1: or at least sometimes happen is that I'll go, actually,
Speaker 1: this could just be an email. I really don't actually
Speaker 1: need synchronous communication. I am meeting for this. Do you
Speaker 1: have that same experience as well, Mish.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely all the time.
Speaker 2: And I think that being more aware of that and
Speaker 2: more mindful of that across the team has just eliminated
Speaker 2: so many meetings out of the diary.
Speaker 1: And now one of the things that I think maybe
Speaker 1: listeners might be thinking going from a five day to
Speaker 1: a four day week is well, that's less time for collaboration, Like,
Speaker 1: do you still have time for collaboration given that you're
Speaker 1: all presumably being so productive, and how i'd love you
Speaker 1: to talk about how we as a team and also
Speaker 1: for you and the projects that you're working on, balanced
Speaker 1: deep work versus collaboration, given now we have to fit
Speaker 1: it into four days rather than five.
Speaker 2: So I think the first thing here, which I know
Speaker 2: that you probably say multiple times when we're talking about
Speaker 2: four day week, is that the biggest thing with four
Speaker 2: day week is reducing the amount of downtime or the
Speaker 2: amount of time that's wasted in a day. So in
Speaker 2: saying that, it absolutely does not mean that there's not
Speaker 2: enough time anymore for deep work and for collaboration. It
Speaker 2: just means that we have to be more selective about
Speaker 2: what we are working on and making sure that we
Speaker 2: are working effectively and on the right things in terms
Speaker 2: of deep work and collaboration. So again, I think that
Speaker 2: most of my collaboration, if I'm doing it most effectively,
Speaker 2: it is using tools like Google Docs and things like
Speaker 2: that in an asynchronous format.
Speaker 3: If there is something that we.
Speaker 2: Need to really get our brains together to solve something
Speaker 2: really challenging, what we would typically do is put out
Speaker 2: a challenge to the relevant people. Get people to put
Speaker 2: all of their ideas and their thoughts into what we
Speaker 2: call a glove, which is essentially just a notepad to
Speaker 2: collect your thoughts as they come to you, and then
Speaker 2: to bring those to a meeting if we are choosing
Speaker 2: to do it in a more synchronous communication format, and
Speaker 2: then we each go around and share our ideas that
Speaker 2: we had gloved previously, and that then also makes the
Speaker 2: time far more effective because everybody's had a chance to
Speaker 2: formulate their own thoughts before they are biased by other thoughts,
Speaker 2: and also to all be able to contribute equally to
Speaker 2: that discussion whenever we actually schedule.
Speaker 1: That in And look, you mentioned Google Docs. I just
Speaker 1: feel like we lean even more heavily on Google Docs
Speaker 1: and Google Sheets, which are essentially like Microsoft Word and
Speaker 1: Microsoft Excel if you've never used Google Docs and Google Sheets,
Speaker 1: but they're collaborative in real time, so as you make changes,
Speaker 1: they are saved as you are typing, essentially. So I know,
Speaker 1: for me, I use those all the time when I'm
Speaker 1: collaborating and I'm just thinking, mish it might be useful
Speaker 1: to talk through a couple of examples. I know I've
Speaker 1: got one in my head that I can talk through,
Speaker 1: and maybe if you can have a think about how
Speaker 1: you have used Google Sheets or Google Docs for something
Speaker 1: you've been collaborating on. So the thing that comes to
Speaker 1: my mind is last year, probably the biggest, most time
Speaker 1: consuming project that I worked on, was designing, in collaboration
Speaker 1: with some other team members, the methodology for assessing people
Speaker 1: or companies in the AFR Boss and Best Places to
Speaker 1: Work list, because it was a brand new list that
Speaker 1: we have just started doing with fair Facts, and it's huge,
Speaker 1: like designing an assessment for what is now a major
Speaker 1: national list. So there was a lot of work. There
Speaker 1: was so much research, like hundreds of journal papers were
Speaker 1: read and analyzed, and there were really three of us
Speaker 1: that were working on the assessment. And while we would
Speaker 1: have a weekly check in meeting, what we often found
Speaker 1: is that because we were working in the one Google doc,
Speaker 1: so we were updating research, putting in suggestions for assessment,
Speaker 1: making comments to each other, replying to those comments within
Speaker 1: that same dock.
Speaker 4: It often negated the need for a meeting.
Speaker 1: For synchronous communication, but it was incredibly collaborative, like collaborating
Speaker 1: throughout the day, but in a really efficient and effective way.
Speaker 1: So that, for me is an example that comes to mind,
Speaker 1: But how about for you, where like, what's an example
Speaker 1: of how you collaborate in this productive and asynchronous world.
Speaker 2: I think all actually just build on your example having
Speaker 2: been involved in that process. And I think one of
Speaker 2: the things that made using Google docs so effective is
Speaker 2: that it actually meant that people were able to really
Speaker 2: formulate intelligent thoughts before having to express them in a
Speaker 2: group format.
Speaker 3: So I think often when we jump.
Speaker 2: Quickly to meetings, if you're having to think on the
Speaker 2: spot and make decisions on the spot, you kind of
Speaker 2: might just end up going along with the majority or
Speaker 2: not really being able to formulate your best thoughts. And
Speaker 2: definitely we've got some people on the team that absolutely
Speaker 2: work better when they've had that chance to think beforehand
Speaker 2: and really kind of nut through what the best plan
Speaker 2: of attack would be. And I think that collaborating over
Speaker 2: Google docs really allowed those people to put their best
Speaker 2: thoughts on the table rather than kind of half bake
Speaker 2: thoughts or thoughts that were influenced by what was happening
Speaker 2: in a meeting scenario. So I think that's another reason
Speaker 2: why that made our work so much more effective. It
Speaker 2: wasn't just about.
Speaker 3: Time, it was about the quality of work being produced.
Speaker 1: Now, another decision that we made when we were designing
Speaker 1: for a day week, which I didn't actually cover with
Speaker 1: Shah last week when I had her on the show,
Speaker 1: is that we decided to make it voluntary as opposed
Speaker 1: to mandatory. Can you talk about why we made that decision.
Speaker 2: Like I said at the start, this is not just
Speaker 2: a perk. This is something that does require individuals to
Speaker 2: change their behaviors and change the ways they work in
Speaker 2: order to make it work. And for some people that
Speaker 2: might have not worked for them in terms of how
Speaker 2: they structured their week. So, for example, we've got one
Speaker 2: in the employees, Zoe, head of consulting.
Speaker 3: She's amazing. She has a young son, so she prefers
Speaker 3: to do her.
Speaker 2: Eighty percent time across the five days and finish earlier
Speaker 2: each day.
Speaker 3: To do school pickup and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: And it's important that we were able to make that
Speaker 2: work for her as well, because the whole premise of
Speaker 2: this is around balance and flexibility.
Speaker 3: And working effectively.
Speaker 2: So I think that was important that we made the
Speaker 2: kind of fifth day off optional if it didn't quite
Speaker 2: fit in with the intent of the overall policy and in.
Speaker 1: Terms of keeping it going, like, we finished our six
Speaker 1: month experiment and it was a boring success, and Shara
Speaker 1: and I went into the metrics that we tracked in
Speaker 1: last week's episode.
Speaker 4: If you came to hear more.
Speaker 1: About that, listeners, but we did think about, well, doesn't
Speaker 1: just keep going indefinitely or do we put trip wires
Speaker 1: in place to constantly and deliberately check ourselves and go
Speaker 1: is it still working? Is it still achieving the aim?
Speaker 1: Do we still do it? So Mish, can you talk
Speaker 1: about how we decide whether we keep it going and
Speaker 1: what those trip wise, were that would make us stop
Speaker 1: and go, oh, hang on, do we need to go
Speaker 1: back to five days now?
Speaker 2: So, at a company level, if there comes a time
Speaker 2: that we aren't meeting our company goals, I don't know
Speaker 2: that that would be a direct killer of the four
Speaker 2: day week, because I think that there are many factors
Speaker 2: that can be contributing to that, and it may or
Speaker 2: may not.
Speaker 3: Be related to four day weeks.
Speaker 2: So I think the important thing is there is that
Speaker 2: I'm not assuming that that.
Speaker 3: Will be the cause.
Speaker 2: I would dig deep into any data available to me
Speaker 2: before coming to that.
Speaker 3: Or any other conclusion. That being said, the team does know.
Speaker 2: That it's a privilege to be working in this way,
Speaker 2: and if we do need to revert back to a
Speaker 2: five day week for operational reasons or anything else that
Speaker 2: we deemed was the right thing to do, then that
Speaker 2: would be accepted and understood.
Speaker 3: They certainly don't see it as a right that we
Speaker 3: have this. If we felt like it was.
Speaker 2: Best for the team and the company to go back
Speaker 2: to five day week, then that would make sense.
Speaker 3: But I think that it.
Speaker 2: Wouldn't be a direct kill if we weren't if we
Speaker 2: weren't meeting our company goals, It would certainly be a
Speaker 2: factor that we'd look at, though on.
Speaker 3: An individual level.
Speaker 2: Again, I don't see it as a black and white thing.
Speaker 2: If someone's not meeting their operas, I would really look
Speaker 2: closely and look at the bigger picture they're like, are
Speaker 2: they in a role where they're playing to their strengths,
Speaker 2: do they have role plarity?
Speaker 3: Do they have the right goals? Do they need help
Speaker 3: to work more effectively?
Speaker 2: As we've talked about, there's lots of kind of behavior
Speaker 2: change and tools that you need to make this work.
Speaker 2: But have you been clear with your expectations? And I
Speaker 2: think the chances are if that was the case where
Speaker 2: someone was struggling and not meeting their goals, and if
Speaker 2: I just took it away, it might not solve the
Speaker 2: issue anyway.
Speaker 3: And maybe the issue is that they haven't been taking
Speaker 3: it enough.
Speaker 2: And then they're therefore burning out any So I think
Speaker 2: it's very much a case by case basis, and certainly
Speaker 2: you need to have metrics to trap to know that
Speaker 2: you are not meeting your company goals.
Speaker 3: But I don't think it's as black and white as
Speaker 3: if you're not meeting X, then why it has to go?
Speaker 1: I want to shift gears now into looking at you
Speaker 1: as a leader of the business and what's it been
Speaker 1: like for you as a CEO working a four day week.
Speaker 1: So I do feel very privileged that I can do
Speaker 1: this and that we add invent him are very very
Speaker 1: lucky that we have a highly motivated and engaged team
Speaker 1: that are very easy to trust without any kind of
Speaker 1: concerns at all. I think the best thing though, for
Speaker 1: me as a CEO is that I genuinely believe that
Speaker 1: it makes me better at my job.
Speaker 3: It absolutely reduces my stress. It gives me more thinking,
Speaker 3: reflection and reading time.
Speaker 2: It gives me a free day with no meetings, so
Speaker 2: if I need to do deeper thinking or catch up
Speaker 2: on something that didn't get done on the other four days,
Speaker 2: I can do that on a Friday as.
Speaker 3: Opposed to taking that into the weekend.
Speaker 2: So that then enables me to have more balance in
Speaker 2: my life and to feel really refreshed come Monday.
Speaker 3: And I think the other thing is that it just
Speaker 3: challenges you to continually.
Speaker 2: Be more effective and to help others be the same.
Speaker 2: And that's the really rewarding aspect, as you can help
Speaker 2: people to do really well at work and have them
Speaker 2: feel really great at that, but also to help them
Speaker 2: to allocate more time to their families and passions outside
Speaker 2: of work.
Speaker 1: What do you typically do on your Friday off? Like,
Speaker 1: what are the some of the ways that you're using it.
Speaker 2: So I've been working remotely for about three years now
Speaker 2: from home, and one of the downsides of working at
Speaker 2: home is that you don't have as much social interaction
Speaker 2: or opportunity to meet new people, and it's very easy
Speaker 2: to get stuck in the house behind your desk all
Speaker 2: day with limited incidental or planned exercise, talking to the
Speaker 2: station or walking to get lunch and stuff like that.
Speaker 3: So one of the things that I filled my fifth.
Speaker 2: Day with is learning how to play golf, which has
Speaker 2: been amazing socially, mentally, and physically. I've been able to
Speaker 2: meet so many more wonderful people in my local community.
Speaker 3: I'd also tix the exercise box.
Speaker 2: It's also highly strategic and requires a different type of
Speaker 2: focus in a totally different way. I've also been able
Speaker 2: to volunteer within the club, which was something that was
Speaker 2: really important to me as well. It's also something I
Speaker 2: can do with my partner and so while like I
Speaker 2: know that the team is very very sick of me
Speaker 2: talking about my handicap reductions and various golfing escapades. It's
Speaker 2: been absolutely one of the best things that I've ever
Speaker 2: done in terms of getting balanced back in my life,
Speaker 2: and I honestly don't think I would have been able
Speaker 2: to do that without the four day week.
Speaker 1: You're very humble, wish like volunteering within the clas like
Speaker 1: president or something like that.
Speaker 3: No, not quite. I'm vice cat and at the moment.
Speaker 4: Yes, advice under achiever. Yeah, that's fun. And what's your handicap?
Speaker 1: For the people that do actually know something about golf
Speaker 1: unlike me.
Speaker 2: So my handicap is down to twenty six, which I
Speaker 2: started at forty five in May.
Speaker 3: So it's coming down quite quickly, which is very nice.
Speaker 4: Is that good?
Speaker 1: When golfers listening go oh wow, she's like not quite
Speaker 1: let they would.
Speaker 3: Go, Okay, she's working that, she's come down quick. She's
Speaker 3: got potential.
Speaker 2: It's probably what they would say. That's certainly not a
Speaker 2: superstarist yet.
Speaker 4: That's funny because Shad took.
Speaker 1: Up bar teaching, so we talked about last week about
Speaker 1: how she's in the middle of learning to be a
Speaker 1: bar teacher, and it's funny because I didn't actually know
Speaker 1: that she was becoming a teacher mish.
Speaker 4: This was new news to me.
Speaker 1: On the I knew that she was really into bar
Speaker 1: and doing lots of classes. But I've suggested that we'll
Speaker 1: have to do some virtual bar classes.
Speaker 4: I used to do bar all the time. I think
Speaker 4: you might remember that. Yeah, yeah, it's funny. For me.
Speaker 1: I have not taken up physical movement, although I do
Speaker 1: incorporate physical movement into every day, so that's part of
Speaker 1: my habits, I guess, But yeah, for me, as you know,
Speaker 1: I decided with that fifth day, which felt really weird.
Speaker 4: I remember the.
Speaker 1: First time I had the Friday off and I'm like,
Speaker 1: what do I do if I'm not working? Because I
Speaker 1: love my work and I love immersing myself in work.
Speaker 1: So I just decided to create more work, strictly speaking,
Speaker 1: in ventive. So that's what led to me creating a
Speaker 1: second podcast, how to Date, which some listeners might be
Speaker 1: familiar with because I do plug it occasionally on this show.
Speaker 1: But that's been super fun for me. It's so rewarding
Speaker 1: starting a project from scratch, or in your case, starting
Speaker 1: a new hobby or learning a new skill and just
Speaker 1: experiencing that sense of mastery and getting in flow with
Speaker 1: something else that has nothing to do with your main job.
Speaker 1: I think is like, it really is a gift. You know,
Speaker 1: we call it gift of the fifth, but it really
Speaker 1: has been a gift I think for both of us. Yeah, yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: And how do you assess during the week whether you
Speaker 1: can take the gift of the fifth, whether you can
Speaker 1: take Friday off.
Speaker 2: I guess that what I would look at is how
Speaker 2: the team's going to be honest, and if everyone is
Speaker 2: on track and if everyone is feeling like they're kicking
Speaker 2: goals in their role, then I feel like my job
Speaker 2: is done because I've been clear on what again, what
Speaker 2: those bigger picture goals are and what the expectations are,
Speaker 2: and as I've been very lucky to see over the
Speaker 2: six month trials that we're actually well ahead in our
Speaker 2: company goals.
Speaker 3: So that means that I'm very comfortable with taking the
Speaker 3: fifth day off.
Speaker 2: I also have an amazing, amazing, amazing right hand Georgia,
Speaker 2: our general manager, who actually one of her operas is
Speaker 2: around supporting me to make sure that I can take
Speaker 2: the four day week, So that means that she definitely
Speaker 2: helps me out on any projects that I'm working on
Speaker 2: to make sure that I can also take that day
Speaker 2: as well, which I absolutely think is massively important that
Speaker 2: I do so that I can role model it for
Speaker 2: others in the team. Do you start each week on
Speaker 2: the Monday going, this is what I want to achieve
Speaker 2: for the week, and if I achieve that, then, on
Speaker 2: top of what you said about the team and how
Speaker 2: they're performing, that you personally feel pretty good about taking
Speaker 2: the Friday off. So I do that for each day,
Speaker 2: so I have ever since I went remote. The one
Speaker 2: thing that I changed about my working ways so that
Speaker 2: I didn't have that guilt around working remotely, which is
Speaker 2: huge when you start working remotely or have any degree
Speaker 2: of flexibility for the first time, is that each day
Speaker 2: I set my goal of what is the most valuable
Speaker 2: thing I could possibly do that day, and that would
Speaker 2: be the first thing that I basically do that day,
Speaker 2: and that I make sure that I get done, and
Speaker 2: sometimes I might finish that at lunchtime, and then then
Speaker 2: means that the afternoon I can do more shallow work
Speaker 2: or even heaven forbid, housework or whatever else needs to
Speaker 2: be done in my life, or sometimes it might take
Speaker 2: till till quite late in the day to get something done.
Speaker 2: But I just know as long as I've done that
Speaker 2: one valuable thing for the day that helps us progress
Speaker 2: as a company, then that certainly justifies the four day
Speaker 2: week for me.
Speaker 1: And what's an example of that one thing that you
Speaker 1: might need to do on a particular day.
Speaker 3: It would depend on what we've got going on.
Speaker 2: But say even in the holidays, we had a new
Speaker 2: startup starting first day back of our new year. So
Speaker 2: I would set myself a goal to say, all right,
Speaker 2: her whole induction plan needs to be done tomorrow before
Speaker 2: I do anything else, because that is critical to her
Speaker 2: success that I get that induction plan done and out
Speaker 2: to her and communicated the team. So it would be
Speaker 2: kind of a discrete, one off, little projeck like that that,
Speaker 2: as I say, might take probably usually nothing shorter than
Speaker 2: two hours, or it could be.
Speaker 3: Longer than that as well.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's interesting that you do that daily.
Speaker 1: I think for me, I more look at it as
Speaker 1: a week long thing for me. For the pasty year
Speaker 1: or so, I've been using just a personal can bandboard
Speaker 1: system where basically there's three columns. I'm actually looking at
Speaker 1: it now and turning around, so I'm hoping my voice
Speaker 1: is still coming through the mic where I've got three columns,
Speaker 1: so I've got to do column A doing and are
Speaker 1: done and things move to the towards the right columns
Speaker 1: during the week, and essentially the to do list, what
Speaker 1: are the big, chunky, deep work esque things that I
Speaker 1: want to do this week that will mean that I'm
Speaker 1: making meaningful progress on my own operas or OKRs, And
Speaker 1: so long as everything's moved to the right or is
Speaker 1: at least almost at the right, because there might be
Speaker 1: roadblocks that I come across that I need to involve
Speaker 1: other people and so therefore it might not all get done.
Speaker 1: Like let's say I'm waiting for my dad to do
Speaker 1: an edit on a video or a podcast interview or.
Speaker 4: Something like that. Then I'll be okay, I think I
Speaker 4: can do this.
Speaker 1: But I find that I will often do just an
Speaker 1: hour of work on Fridays, not often, maybe half the time.
Speaker 1: I'd probably do an hour maybe two hours of work
Speaker 1: on a Friday, which I actually really love because it's
Speaker 1: so peaceful. I'm purely doing it because I'm just personally
Speaker 1: motivated to do that to get ahead on something or
Speaker 1: wrap up something, or just feel that sense of closure
Speaker 1: on just a few kind of loose ends that were
Speaker 1: hanging around that there's not necessarily a deadline. I don't
Speaker 1: necessarily have to get it done, but I do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's something really nice I find about just doing one
Speaker 1: or two hours in the morning, but then still knowing
Speaker 1: that I've got the rest of the day to do.
Speaker 4: Whatever i want to do that day. Have you had
Speaker 4: that experience as well?
Speaker 1: Because I know that often if I do send an
Speaker 1: email on a Friday, I will maybe half the time
Speaker 1: get a response from you.
Speaker 3: I'm probably the same. I probably still do one or
Speaker 3: two hours, but.
Speaker 2: That just feels so leisurely and a pleasure to do
Speaker 2: it on that day as opposed to it cutting into
Speaker 2: my weekend time. And I also know that no one
Speaker 2: is expecting me to work or expecting me to apply,
Speaker 2: so then that then makes it a completely free use
Speaker 2: of time to get ahead on anything I need to
Speaker 2: or to finish anything I didn't do in the other
Speaker 2: four days.
Speaker 1: And in those other four days for the skeptics out there, going, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: four days, but they're probably like ten or twelve hour days.
Speaker 1: What's an average length day for you? Now that we're
Speaker 1: well and truly into this four day week way of working.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they're definitely not long days. That's really important
Speaker 2: to note. I actually wouldn't have a clue what my
Speaker 2: average days because again, I just focused so much on
Speaker 2: outcomes over hours. It's probably fairly typical if I was
Speaker 2: to sit down and work it out a seven or
Speaker 2: eight hour day. But I also structure my day quite differently,
Speaker 2: whereby I am a bit of an hour whereby I
Speaker 2: commonly get my second wind of brain power late in
Speaker 2: the day, so sometimes I might start later in the morning,
Speaker 2: but I might do another couple of power hours in
Speaker 2: the evening as well. But I would say it's definitely
Speaker 2: not trying to fit a thirty eight hour week into
Speaker 2: four days.
Speaker 3: Absolutely not. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Good, And are you taking lunch breaks, mish?
Speaker 2: I am I taking lunch bakes, I take a brunch break.
Speaker 2: So I'm a serial cafe worker whereby, and I can
Speaker 2: safely say this now that Melbourne people are actually allowed
Speaker 2: to go to cafe, so I won't offend anyone. But yeah,
Speaker 2: I commonly work for a couple of hours at a cafe. Well,
Speaker 2: they make me my food and my lunch for the day.
Speaker 1: And has there been any downsides. Do you think to
Speaker 1: this four day week way of working?
Speaker 2: Oh, I need to ask me this, and I look,
Speaker 2: I really did think about it, hard to go all right,
Speaker 2: really and really what are the downtipes? And I really
Speaker 2: struggled to answer this. I think that the most frustrating
Speaker 2: bit is probably when I talk to other people about
Speaker 2: it and I see them working ridiculously long hours and
Speaker 2: then I say, oh, I'm doing this amazing thing called
Speaker 2: four day week, and they look at me like I'm crazy,
Speaker 2: and they just well, that's impossible for me.
Speaker 3: I can't do that. I'm so busy.
Speaker 2: I've got xyz on Like, there's no way my organization
Speaker 2: could do that because we're just so busy. And that's
Speaker 2: really frustrating to me because I just look at it
Speaker 2: and go, no, like, you're probably just working on the
Speaker 2: wrong things or working completely ineffectively.
Speaker 3: I really don't see.
Speaker 2: Why this can't work in places, And I think that
Speaker 2: it absolutely challenges you to be better at working on
Speaker 2: write things and working effectively, and to then balance that
Speaker 2: with your home life as well, because you see all
Speaker 2: these people working these crazy hours and that's not only
Speaker 2: impacting on their.
Speaker 3: Quality of work, but also the quality of their relationships
Speaker 3: at home, which is just terrible.
Speaker 2: So I think that's the most frustrating thing that so
Speaker 2: many people discount this idea when there are so many advantages.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's funny the downside thing.
Speaker 1: I remember I was asked that question I did in
Speaker 1: an interview about the four day week with Sky News
Speaker 1: a little while ago. And the media want there to
Speaker 1: be a downside because that's that's what's interesting, that's what
Speaker 1: gets clicks or whatever. But yeah, I personally can't think
Speaker 1: of any downsides either, which you know, it's a bit
Speaker 1: of a letdown of an answer, but.
Speaker 3: So far, so good. We'll come back to anyone if
Speaker 3: we find some.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're seven months in, and what's been most challenging
Speaker 1: for you in leading a company that only works four
Speaker 1: days a week.
Speaker 2: The biggest thing I would say here is that you
Speaker 2: do need to really think carefully about how you recruit
Speaker 2: and on board new people because.
Speaker 3: This level of flexibility and this level of trust.
Speaker 2: That's associated with something like four day week will likely
Speaker 2: be very, very different to what anybody has experienced elsewhere,
Speaker 2: and that transition takes a bit of getting used to.
Speaker 3: So some of the things we've done at Inventum to.
Speaker 2: Help with this is that we've actually tweaked our company
Speaker 2: values to align with our very flexible ways of working
Speaker 2: and integrated these into our recruitment process.
Speaker 3: So we change the way that we interview, we change.
Speaker 2: A couple of the tasks that we do, and we
Speaker 2: also spent a lot of time integrating productivity tools and
Speaker 2: training and meeting minimization and ways of working to ensure
Speaker 2: that everybody as a team can work their best.
Speaker 3: I think you can't assume that everybody has those skills.
Speaker 2: People certainly need to be given training and tools into
Speaker 2: how they can work more effectively.
Speaker 3: I think we've had as a result of doing some
Speaker 3: of those things.
Speaker 2: As I said, we've had this amazing new startu Sasha
Speaker 2: come on board only a couple of weeks ago, and
Speaker 2: she's already given some really fabulous feedback on some of
Speaker 2: these tools and how helpful they've been for her coming
Speaker 2: on board and really fast tracking getting to know others
Speaker 2: on the team and how they work. So I think
Speaker 2: focusing on how you recruit and how you're onboard into.
Speaker 3: This way of working is definitely something to focus on.
Speaker 1: I think the recruitment things really interesting, and I'm wondering,
Speaker 1: can you give an example of a value that did
Speaker 1: change and invent him and how we've then translated that
Speaker 1: into incorporating that as part of our recruitment process.
Speaker 3: So pretty much.
Speaker 2: All of them actually have a link into this way
Speaker 2: of working. But one of the example that I can
Speaker 2: give you is around is called better than before. So
Speaker 2: this is about how we all strive to make each other,
Speaker 2: our clients in the world better with everything that we do,
Speaker 2: and we basically expect our staff to just constantly improve things.
Speaker 2: And just because we do it one way doesn't mean
Speaker 2: it's the best way. Always find ways to work more
Speaker 2: quarterly or more efficiently and do things better and to
Speaker 2: share that with the team.
Speaker 3: So what we did is that in.
Speaker 2: An early stage in the recruitment process, we got all
Speaker 2: of our candidates to do.
Speaker 3: A video where they shared how they've.
Speaker 2: Made something better than before and a change that they've
Speaker 2: made to make things better. And that was just an
Speaker 2: early taste in the recruitment process to one of our values.
Speaker 1: And what's another example, because I think these tangible examples
Speaker 1: of how we've done that are really important because I
Speaker 1: think it's easier said than done. Just like hire people
Speaker 1: that can work independently and autonomously and that you can
Speaker 1: trust like that is a very very hard.
Speaker 4: Thing to do.
Speaker 1: And I mean we've been working together for seven years
Speaker 1: and every time we recruit, we iterate that recruitment process.
Speaker 1: So what's another example or two of how we do
Speaker 1: that and how we find these unique people who we
Speaker 1: know are going to thrive and invent herem So.
Speaker 3: Another one that we have is called progress over.
Speaker 2: Perfection, which's reflective of how fast we move and how
Speaker 2: quickly we all need to learn, and the fact that
Speaker 2: we all need to have that change orientation and to
Speaker 2: be able to change often. So what we encourage everyone
Speaker 2: to do is to constantly test and adapt based.
Speaker 3: On what you learn. So Fortite Week is actually a
Speaker 3: great example of this where we've positioned it as an experiment.
Speaker 2: We've put in place metrics, we've tested them, we've all
Speaker 2: adapted our behaviors based on what we learn, and as
Speaker 2: a result, we've actually implemented this process. But we absolutely
Speaker 2: encourage this as individuals, and we want people to either
Speaker 2: adapt or acknowledge if something's failed and change as a
Speaker 2: result of the failure.
Speaker 3: So in the recruitment.
Speaker 2: Process, we did a interview about the middle of the process,
Speaker 2: which basically dell. We got our candidates to delve into
Speaker 2: a time where they've failed and what they learned from that.
Speaker 2: So one other example I give you is our FI value,
Speaker 2: which is make it happen. And this is reflective of
Speaker 2: the fact that we are a small yet highly flexible
Speaker 2: and impactful team with big aspirations to keep big goals.
Speaker 2: And what we want to encourage is that everybody takes
Speaker 2: personal responsibility for making an inventing an awesome place to
Speaker 2: work and really repaying the trust that things like four.
Speaker 3: Day week really gives people.
Speaker 2: And so what we did in the recruitment process is
Speaker 2: we got people to give us their best working and
Speaker 2: productivity tip to make sure that they get important stuff done,
Speaker 2: to give us a sense of how they think about
Speaker 2: finding efficiencies and how they think about taking personal responsibility
Speaker 2: to make things happen. So we actually learn a lot
Speaker 2: from that too, because we've got some really cool productivity
Speaker 2: tips from our candidates through.
Speaker 1: That awesome and one final thing I want to explore
Speaker 1: is I imagine that there are some listeners who are like, ah,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't mind suggesting this to my CEO or my boss,
Speaker 1: or maybe they are the boss or CEO and they
Speaker 1: want to start trying it. What advice would you give
Speaker 1: to those people.
Speaker 2: So I do have a few top tips here that
Speaker 2: I would say. The first one would be to frame
Speaker 2: it as an experiment. You will absolutely come across skeptics.
Speaker 2: You will absolutely come across a whole heap of assumptions
Speaker 2: that people will hold around why this will not work
Speaker 2: and why this will be terrible. So the best thing
Speaker 2: you can do to overcome all of those is to
Speaker 2: simply frame it as an experiment, set some metrics, and.
Speaker 3: Use this data that you collect to crush all the assumptions.
Speaker 2: The second one, which we have talked about I would
Speaker 2: highly recommend as well, is to give it a name
Speaker 2: that reflects your intents, So similar to gift of the
Speaker 2: fifth what reflects.
Speaker 3: The intent of the four day week at your organization.
Speaker 2: The third tip that I would say would be to
Speaker 2: absolutely role model it. As a leader. You must take
Speaker 2: the fifth day, otherwise no one else will absolutely book
Speaker 2: in something that you love to do every Friday. That
Speaker 2: ensures that you do take today exactly like I've done
Speaker 2: with my golf And I would say try and avoid
Speaker 2: sending emails to your team if you can. We do
Speaker 2: still a little bit, but definitely it's massively reduced, and
Speaker 2: if anything, it's reduced.
Speaker 3: All the weekend emails that we probably used to send.
Speaker 2: There might be a couple on Friday, but there's never
Speaker 2: any on the weekend, very minimal anyway.
Speaker 3: So the other part of that would be to share
Speaker 3: how you've used the day.
Speaker 2: So one of the things that we do is on
Speaker 2: a Monday team meeting, we have a standing agenda item
Speaker 2: for people to share anything interesting or fun that they
Speaker 2: did on their gift of the fifth, which is really
Speaker 2: great to show how grateful we all are for the
Speaker 2: day and all of the various things that we've been
Speaker 2: able to do as a result. The final thing I
Speaker 2: would say that is it's possibly not as radical as
Speaker 2: people think. There are quite a number of companies out
Speaker 2: there already trialing it, and some of the world's most
Speaker 2: productive countries I know, like Norway and Denmark and Germany.
Speaker 2: I think you already work an average week of around
Speaker 2: twenty seven hours and they're still super productive. So definitely
Speaker 2: don't think be scared of it. I would recommend setting
Speaker 2: up an experiment and giving it a.
Speaker 1: Go awesome advice and finally, mish if people want to
Speaker 1: connect with you, what is the best way for them
Speaker 1: to do that?
Speaker 3: You can find me on LinkedIn, So Michelle.
Speaker 2: Lapoidevin, I do have a long surname, but I'm sure
Speaker 2: you will find me there. Otherwise, email Michelle at inventium
Speaker 2: dot com dot au and I love talking about this stuff,
Speaker 2: so happy to answer any questions that anyone has on email.
Speaker 4: Famous last words.
Speaker 1: Yes, it's been wonderful having you on the show again
Speaker 1: and unpacking the four day week. And look, I'm sure
Speaker 1: that we have inspired or encouraged people who are maybe
Speaker 1: on the fence to really think about giving it a
Speaker 1: go and running an experiment. So thank you so much
Speaker 1: for your time, no wries, thank you.
Speaker 4: That is it for today's show. If you are enjoying
Speaker 4: How I Work.
Speaker 1: I would be so so, so so appreciative if you
Speaker 1: took ten seconds out of your day to pop into
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, if that's where you listen to it, and
Speaker 1: just tap on the star rating. You scroll right down
Speaker 1: to the bottom of the How I Work Show and
Speaker 1: tap on a star rating, and you might even want
Speaker 1: to write a little note of some feedback and I'm
Speaker 1: so appreciative of the hundreds of people that have done this.
Speaker 3: It really does make my day.
Speaker 4: So thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1: So that is it for today's show and I will
Speaker 1: see you next time.