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Speaker 1: What would you do if your boss suggested that you

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Speaker 1: cut your working hours down to just four normal length days,

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Speaker 1: but said to you, I'll still pay you for five.

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Speaker 1: Would you pitch yourself to check that you weren't dreaming? Well,

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Speaker 1: this is exactly what happened last April at Inventium. Our

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Speaker 1: CEO Michelle La Poidevin or Misha's I call her, suggested

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Speaker 1: to the team that we should try out the four

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Speaker 1: day week. This led to us running a six month

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Speaker 1: experiment where the team all worked four days per week

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Speaker 1: and had Fridays off. And as a participant in this experiment,

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Speaker 1: I can tell you it was bloody awesome. And today

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Speaker 1: we are going to learn exactly why Mish even suggested

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Speaker 1: this idea and how she manages to be a CEO

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Speaker 1: in just four normal length working days a week. My

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Speaker 1: name is doctor Ramantha Inba, an organizational psychologist and the

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Speaker 1: founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, and this is how

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Speaker 1: I work a show about how to help you do

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Speaker 1: your best work. Now, you might have heard my chat

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Speaker 1: with Inventium's head of Learning, Charlotte Rash last week where

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Speaker 1: we got into the nitty gritty details of how our

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Speaker 1: four day week experiment worked what we measured, and we

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Speaker 1: also addressed what some of the skeptics might be thinking.

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Speaker 1: So go back and have a listen to that show

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Speaker 1: if you're keen to go deep into the four day

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Speaker 1: week concept. And today in my chat with Mish, we

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Speaker 1: talk about how on earth do you lead a business

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Speaker 1: where people only work four days but we pay them

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Speaker 1: for five, and how do we balance the need to

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Speaker 1: collaborate with also working super efficiently, and what the biggest

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Speaker 1: challenges have been in actually making the four day week work.

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Speaker 1: So it was actually your idea to put forward the

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Speaker 1: four day week for Inventium. Can you tell me why

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Speaker 1: you decided to put it forward when we were thinking

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Speaker 1: about how to I think our challenge was make eight

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Speaker 1: great because we had reduced ourselves to a team of

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Speaker 1: eight at the time.

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Speaker 2: I think the three main reasons I would say that

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Speaker 2: I felt that four day week was particularly good for

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Speaker 2: Inventium was first of all, around staff retention.

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Speaker 3: So, as we say, it was born out of the

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Speaker 3: challenge of how to make eight great?

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Speaker 2: And like all businesses need to be doing everything we

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Speaker 2: can do to attract and retrain the brightles people, but

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Speaker 2: we also want to ensure that they're doing their best work.

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Speaker 2: And I think that this is the real beauty of

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Speaker 2: four day week is that it's not just another perk.

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Speaker 3: It's not a gym membership, or it's not just something

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Speaker 3: that's nice to have. It actually empowers people to change

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Speaker 3: and to do their best work. The second thing with.

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Speaker 2: That is around trust. So trust has also been really

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Speaker 2: big at Inventium, and I see four day week as

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Speaker 2: a wonderful display of that trust and really empowering for

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Speaker 2: our employees. And then the third thing I would say

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Speaker 2: is that four day week is really all about outcomes

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Speaker 2: over hours. And I know that Stanford, you did a

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Speaker 2: study that found the overworked employees are actually much less

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Speaker 2: productive in terms of output that employees working an average.

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Speaker 3: Or normal week, and that is.

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Speaker 2: Likely due to increases in fatigue and stress, which may

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Speaker 2: also result in increases in mistakes or poorer quality of work,

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Speaker 2: which essentially will further negate any perceived productivity gains of

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Speaker 2: working those longer hours. So ultimately, so much time is

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Speaker 2: wasted in a typical working day, and four day week

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Speaker 2: is about minimizing that and getting people to focus on

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Speaker 2: the stuff that matters and not the clock.

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Speaker 1: Now, The other thing that you were responsible for is

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Speaker 1: the name of the initiative, So we deliberately didn't call

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Speaker 1: it Inventiums for a Day Week, although that is what

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Speaker 1: a lot of organizations call it around the world, the

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Speaker 1: four day week. We called it something else. Can you

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Speaker 1: talk about what the name was that you came up with?

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Speaker 1: And I will add that we did crowdsources to the

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Speaker 1: whole team, but just so happened your name was best

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Speaker 1: and why you thought of his name.

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Speaker 2: So we decided to call it the Gift of the

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Speaker 2: Fifth And I feel like that's a name that really

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Speaker 2: reflects the intent of the initiative rather than all of

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Speaker 2: the instructions or prescriptive behaviors you want behind it. So

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Speaker 2: essentially what it's reflective of is the fact that it's

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Speaker 2: a gift we are giving our people so that they

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Speaker 2: can potentially spend more time with their family, more time

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Speaker 2: with their friends.

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Speaker 3: More time in their community. They can spend more time

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Speaker 3: on themselves in personal development or reading or anything they like.

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Speaker 3: But essentially, it's a gift, So treat it that way,

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Speaker 3: really value it, really make the most of it, and

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Speaker 3: make sure that they are kind of changing their behaviors

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Speaker 3: in the week to ensure that they can take on

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Speaker 3: that gift, that they can accept that gift every Friday.

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Speaker 3: So I think that that was an important thing for

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Speaker 3: to do that.

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Speaker 2: It's not just kind of another day off where we

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Speaker 2: want you all kind of sitting at home chilling out.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you might want to do that occasionally, but

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Speaker 3: treat it as.

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Speaker 2: A gift where you can really do something valuable with

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Speaker 2: it for yourself or for others around you.

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Speaker 1: I think that's so important because what I would say

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Speaker 1: we've learned an inventive through trying out all sorts of

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Speaker 1: unusual staff benefits, is that it's really easy for these

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Speaker 1: things to get taken for granted. And I'd say that's

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Speaker 1: certainly what happened three and a half years on with

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Speaker 1: unlimited leave, when you know.

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Speaker 4: It worked really well for about three years.

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Speaker 1: And then I think in that third year, I think

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Speaker 1: that there was a bit of people taking it for

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Speaker 1: granted and not quite using it in line with the

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Speaker 1: intent of the policy.

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Speaker 4: Would you agree with that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I would, And I think it's good to note

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Speaker 3: as well.

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Speaker 2: So we've actually superseded that initiative with the four day week,

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Speaker 2: which is a good learning in itself that we should

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Speaker 2: always be continually reviewing all of these practices and ensuring

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Speaker 2: that it best meets the needs of the business and

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Speaker 2: all of us as individuals as well.

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Speaker 1: Now at a Ventium we run a holocracy, which means

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Speaker 1: that we don't have managers per se. But having said that,

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Speaker 1: as CEO, Mishu still are the one that sits down

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Speaker 1: with everyone in the business once a quarter and works

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Speaker 1: with them on seeing how they're tracking towards their goals.

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Speaker 4: And you give them feedback during this process.

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Speaker 1: And I want to know for you, how now that

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Speaker 1: people are doing a four day week and this is

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Speaker 1: a permanent thing, how do you assess if people on

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Speaker 1: track in terms of their productivity Because one of the

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Speaker 1: key things behind the four day week is one hundred

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Speaker 1: percent productivity but using eighty percent time.

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Speaker 2: So it is a little bit trickier in the inconsultancies

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Speaker 2: and as knowledge workers in that we could really put

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Speaker 2: this key daily or weekly metric on productivity, you know,

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Speaker 2: things like generating ten reports in the week or you

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Speaker 2: know x number of sales. Having said that, people need

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Speaker 2: clear guidance around this to feel comfortable that they can

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Speaker 2: take the day without any guilt.

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Speaker 3: So while it is a trust system, they absolutely do.

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Speaker 2: Need these boundaries and parameters to feel like they are

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Speaker 2: empowered to take the day without feeling guilty about that.

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Speaker 3: So I think that the key.

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Speaker 2: Thing here is to look big picture, and given one

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Speaker 2: of the major premises of four day week is to

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Speaker 2: increase effectiveness, the structure we put in place around this

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Speaker 2: ladders up to our company goals. So this is ensuring

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Speaker 2: that employees have a real connection to our greater purpose,

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Speaker 2: which is really critical as this is what will essentially

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Speaker 2: tap into their intrinsic motivators and really empower them to

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Speaker 2: manage their workload accordingly. So in terms of how I

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Speaker 2: assess whether we are being productive or not, basically it

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Speaker 2: is looking at our company goals, which ladder down to

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Speaker 2: individual level operas or KPIs, which I do review every

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Speaker 2: quarter as you said, but also I meet with some

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Speaker 2: people more informally more frequently as well, and most people

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Speaker 2: in the team have broken these down into monthly, weekly,

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Speaker 2: and sometimes daily goals. But essentially I use those quarterly

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Speaker 2: check ins to make sure the individuals are on track,

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Speaker 2: and I also use all of my company level data

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Speaker 2: and reporting to assess more frequently whether we are still

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Speaker 2: on track.

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Speaker 1: And just to clarify for those that don't know what

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Speaker 1: an opera isn't we adapted that to ourselves. We mean

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Speaker 1: the Google slash Intel OKRs, objective and key results. We

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Speaker 1: add activities onto the end, hence oper Now company goals

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Speaker 1: can you give people a sense We obviously don't have

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Speaker 1: to specifically say what our company goals are, but just

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Speaker 1: the categories of company goals that we are tracking to

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Speaker 1: go yet where we're on track from a productivity point

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Speaker 1: of view, or we're falling behind. So we do have

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Speaker 1: our typical financial metrics which are fairly easy to track

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Speaker 1: to see whether we.

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Speaker 3: Are falling behind. We've also got our client experience metrics.

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Speaker 2: We've also got our employee experience metrics, and we also

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Speaker 2: have another one around staff tenure, which is a really

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Speaker 2: important one.

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Speaker 3: Obviously that four day.

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Speaker 2: Week contributes to as well, but essentially, as a team,

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Speaker 2: if we're meeting our company goals, then I'm personally more

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Speaker 2: than satisfied that everyone is working on the right things

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Speaker 2: because I know that they are all linked and that

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Speaker 2: I can more than justify a full day week.

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Speaker 1: I want to get into some of the nitty gritty

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Speaker 1: around how we do things and maybe how we've changed

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Speaker 1: things so that we can as an organization fit five

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Speaker 1: days into four. And I think meetings are something that

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Speaker 1: can eat up a lot of time in a lot

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Speaker 1: of organizations and cause a lot of pain and fatigue.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk about what we do at Inventing with

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Speaker 1: regard to meetings that help us use that time productively?

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Speaker 2: As you say, massive, massive time suck for many, many people.

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Speaker 2: And I'd say that the two key things that Inventings

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Speaker 2: really focused on, particularly over the last twelve months in

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Speaker 2: terms of minimizing meetings are that we do a payo

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Speaker 2: or a purpose, agenda and outcomes for any meetings that

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Speaker 2: go in the diary. So that means that before we

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Speaker 2: send somebody a meeting request, we have to actually sit

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Speaker 2: down and go what is the purpose, what is the agenda,

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Speaker 2: and what are the outcomes that we are wanting from

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Speaker 2: this meeting?

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Speaker 3: And often what happens with.

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Speaker 2: That is that when you sit down to actually do that,

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Speaker 2: you go, oh, that might not need to even be

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Speaker 2: a meeting, or that might actually be only ten minutes,

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Speaker 2: rather than defaulting to that typical hour that the Google

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Speaker 2: Calendar sets for us. So that's one thing that's really

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Speaker 2: kind of cut down the amount of meetings. The other

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Speaker 2: thing is that we've really focused on moving to to

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Speaker 2: asynchronous communication style, so that's also been big in taking

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Speaker 2: a lot of meetings out of the diary. So this

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Speaker 2: means that quite often we will instead of chatting about

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Speaker 2: something for an hour over a meeting, we will collaborate

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Speaker 2: in a Google doc and input all our own thoughts

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Speaker 2: and collaborating writing in our own time rather than jumping

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Speaker 2: straight to a meeting. And I think that that's also

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Speaker 2: been really effective at minimizing the number of meetings that

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Speaker 2: go in the diary.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and something that we did recently is we formally

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Speaker 1: articulated what our communication values and ways of working as

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Speaker 1: a team, and do we as a team default to

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Speaker 1: synchronous or asynchronous communication which basically means non live asynchronous

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Speaker 1: so via email for example, or synchronous which is essentially

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Speaker 1: live communication as you do in a meeting or a

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Speaker 1: phone chat or something like that. And we really agreed

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Speaker 1: as a team that asynchronous was the default for us,

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Speaker 1: and that's really important. And I think for me, what

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Speaker 1: I find when I'm thinking about setting a meeting and

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Speaker 1: I sit down to do a Payoh, what will often

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Speaker 1: or at least sometimes happen is that I'll go, actually,

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Speaker 1: this could just be an email. I really don't actually

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Speaker 1: need synchronous communication. I am meeting for this. Do you

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Speaker 1: have that same experience as well, Mish.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely all the time.

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Speaker 2: And I think that being more aware of that and

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Speaker 2: more mindful of that across the team has just eliminated

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Speaker 2: so many meetings out of the diary.

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Speaker 1: And now one of the things that I think maybe

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Speaker 1: listeners might be thinking going from a five day to

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Speaker 1: a four day week is well, that's less time for collaboration, Like,

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Speaker 1: do you still have time for collaboration given that you're

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Speaker 1: all presumably being so productive, and how i'd love you

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Speaker 1: to talk about how we as a team and also

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Speaker 1: for you and the projects that you're working on, balanced

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Speaker 1: deep work versus collaboration, given now we have to fit

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Speaker 1: it into four days rather than five.

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Speaker 2: So I think the first thing here, which I know

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Speaker 2: that you probably say multiple times when we're talking about

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Speaker 2: four day week, is that the biggest thing with four

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Speaker 2: day week is reducing the amount of downtime or the

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Speaker 2: amount of time that's wasted in a day. So in

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Speaker 2: saying that, it absolutely does not mean that there's not

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Speaker 2: enough time anymore for deep work and for collaboration. It

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Speaker 2: just means that we have to be more selective about

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Speaker 2: what we are working on and making sure that we

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Speaker 2: are working effectively and on the right things in terms

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Speaker 2: of deep work and collaboration. So again, I think that

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Speaker 2: most of my collaboration, if I'm doing it most effectively,

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Speaker 2: it is using tools like Google Docs and things like

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Speaker 2: that in an asynchronous format.

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Speaker 3: If there is something that we.

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Speaker 2: Need to really get our brains together to solve something

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Speaker 2: really challenging, what we would typically do is put out

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Speaker 2: a challenge to the relevant people. Get people to put

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Speaker 2: all of their ideas and their thoughts into what we

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Speaker 2: call a glove, which is essentially just a notepad to

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Speaker 2: collect your thoughts as they come to you, and then

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Speaker 2: to bring those to a meeting if we are choosing

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Speaker 2: to do it in a more synchronous communication format, and

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Speaker 2: then we each go around and share our ideas that

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Speaker 2: we had gloved previously, and that then also makes the

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Speaker 2: time far more effective because everybody's had a chance to

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Speaker 2: formulate their own thoughts before they are biased by other thoughts,

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Speaker 2: and also to all be able to contribute equally to

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Speaker 2: that discussion whenever we actually schedule.

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Speaker 1: That in And look, you mentioned Google Docs. I just

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Speaker 1: feel like we lean even more heavily on Google Docs

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Speaker 1: and Google Sheets, which are essentially like Microsoft Word and

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Speaker 1: Microsoft Excel if you've never used Google Docs and Google Sheets,

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Speaker 1: but they're collaborative in real time, so as you make changes,

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Speaker 1: they are saved as you are typing, essentially. So I know,

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Speaker 1: for me, I use those all the time when I'm

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Speaker 1: collaborating and I'm just thinking, mish it might be useful

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Speaker 1: to talk through a couple of examples. I know I've

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Speaker 1: got one in my head that I can talk through,

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Speaker 1: and maybe if you can have a think about how

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Speaker 1: you have used Google Sheets or Google Docs for something

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Speaker 1: you've been collaborating on. So the thing that comes to

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Speaker 1: my mind is last year, probably the biggest, most time

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Speaker 1: consuming project that I worked on, was designing, in collaboration

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Speaker 1: with some other team members, the methodology for assessing people

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Speaker 1: or companies in the AFR Boss and Best Places to

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Speaker 1: Work list, because it was a brand new list that

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Speaker 1: we have just started doing with fair Facts, and it's huge,

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Speaker 1: like designing an assessment for what is now a major

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Speaker 1: national list. So there was a lot of work. There

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Speaker 1: was so much research, like hundreds of journal papers were

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Speaker 1: read and analyzed, and there were really three of us

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Speaker 1: that were working on the assessment. And while we would

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Speaker 1: have a weekly check in meeting, what we often found

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Speaker 1: is that because we were working in the one Google doc,

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Speaker 1: so we were updating research, putting in suggestions for assessment,

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Speaker 1: making comments to each other, replying to those comments within

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Speaker 1: that same dock.

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Speaker 4: It often negated the need for a meeting.

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Speaker 1: For synchronous communication, but it was incredibly collaborative, like collaborating

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Speaker 1: throughout the day, but in a really efficient and effective way.

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Speaker 1: So that, for me is an example that comes to mind,

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Speaker 1: But how about for you, where like, what's an example

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Speaker 1: of how you collaborate in this productive and asynchronous world.

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Speaker 2: I think all actually just build on your example having

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Speaker 2: been involved in that process. And I think one of

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Speaker 2: the things that made using Google docs so effective is

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Speaker 2: that it actually meant that people were able to really

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Speaker 2: formulate intelligent thoughts before having to express them in a

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Speaker 2: group format.

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Speaker 3: So I think often when we jump.

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Speaker 2: Quickly to meetings, if you're having to think on the

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Speaker 2: spot and make decisions on the spot, you kind of

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Speaker 2: might just end up going along with the majority or

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Speaker 2: not really being able to formulate your best thoughts. And

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Speaker 2: definitely we've got some people on the team that absolutely

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Speaker 2: work better when they've had that chance to think beforehand

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Speaker 2: and really kind of nut through what the best plan

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Speaker 2: of attack would be. And I think that collaborating over

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Speaker 2: Google docs really allowed those people to put their best

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Speaker 2: thoughts on the table rather than kind of half bake

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Speaker 2: thoughts or thoughts that were influenced by what was happening

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Speaker 2: in a meeting scenario. So I think that's another reason

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Speaker 2: why that made our work so much more effective. It

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Speaker 2: wasn't just about.

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Speaker 3: Time, it was about the quality of work being produced.

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Speaker 1: Now, another decision that we made when we were designing

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Speaker 1: for a day week, which I didn't actually cover with

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Speaker 1: Shah last week when I had her on the show,

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Speaker 1: is that we decided to make it voluntary as opposed

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Speaker 1: to mandatory. Can you talk about why we made that decision.

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Speaker 2: Like I said at the start, this is not just

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Speaker 2: a perk. This is something that does require individuals to

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Speaker 2: change their behaviors and change the ways they work in

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Speaker 2: order to make it work. And for some people that

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Speaker 2: might have not worked for them in terms of how

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Speaker 2: they structured their week. So, for example, we've got one

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Speaker 2: in the employees, Zoe, head of consulting.

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Speaker 3: She's amazing. She has a young son, so she prefers

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Speaker 3: to do her.

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Speaker 2: Eighty percent time across the five days and finish earlier

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Speaker 2: each day.

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Speaker 3: To do school pickup and stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: And it's important that we were able to make that

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Speaker 2: work for her as well, because the whole premise of

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Speaker 2: this is around balance and flexibility.

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Speaker 3: And working effectively.

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Speaker 2: So I think that was important that we made the

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Speaker 2: kind of fifth day off optional if it didn't quite

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Speaker 2: fit in with the intent of the overall policy and in.

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Speaker 1: Terms of keeping it going, like, we finished our six

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Speaker 1: month experiment and it was a boring success, and Shara

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Speaker 1: and I went into the metrics that we tracked in

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Speaker 1: last week's episode.

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Speaker 4: If you came to hear more.

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Speaker 1: About that, listeners, but we did think about, well, doesn't

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Speaker 1: just keep going indefinitely or do we put trip wires

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Speaker 1: in place to constantly and deliberately check ourselves and go

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Speaker 1: is it still working? Is it still achieving the aim?

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Speaker 1: Do we still do it? So Mish, can you talk

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Speaker 1: about how we decide whether we keep it going and

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Speaker 1: what those trip wise, were that would make us stop

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Speaker 1: and go, oh, hang on, do we need to go

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Speaker 1: back to five days now?

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Speaker 2: So, at a company level, if there comes a time

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Speaker 2: that we aren't meeting our company goals, I don't know

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Speaker 2: that that would be a direct killer of the four

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Speaker 2: day week, because I think that there are many factors

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Speaker 2: that can be contributing to that, and it may or

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Speaker 2: may not.

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Speaker 3: Be related to four day weeks.

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Speaker 2: So I think the important thing is there is that

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Speaker 2: I'm not assuming that that.

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Speaker 3: Will be the cause.

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Speaker 2: I would dig deep into any data available to me

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Speaker 2: before coming to that.

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Speaker 3: Or any other conclusion. That being said, the team does know.

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Speaker 2: That it's a privilege to be working in this way,

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Speaker 2: and if we do need to revert back to a

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Speaker 2: five day week for operational reasons or anything else that

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Speaker 2: we deemed was the right thing to do, then that

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Speaker 2: would be accepted and understood.

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Speaker 3: They certainly don't see it as a right that we

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Speaker 3: have this. If we felt like it was.

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Speaker 2: Best for the team and the company to go back

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Speaker 2: to five day week, then that would make sense.

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Speaker 3: But I think that it.

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Speaker 2: Wouldn't be a direct kill if we weren't if we

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Speaker 2: weren't meeting our company goals, It would certainly be a

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Speaker 2: factor that we'd look at, though on.

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Speaker 3: An individual level.

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Speaker 2: Again, I don't see it as a black and white thing.

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Speaker 2: If someone's not meeting their operas, I would really look

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Speaker 2: closely and look at the bigger picture they're like, are

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Speaker 2: they in a role where they're playing to their strengths,

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Speaker 2: do they have role plarity?

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Speaker 3: Do they have the right goals? Do they need help

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Speaker 3: to work more effectively?

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Speaker 2: As we've talked about, there's lots of kind of behavior

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Speaker 2: change and tools that you need to make this work.

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Speaker 2: But have you been clear with your expectations? And I

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Speaker 2: think the chances are if that was the case where

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Speaker 2: someone was struggling and not meeting their goals, and if

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Speaker 2: I just took it away, it might not solve the

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Speaker 2: issue anyway.

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Speaker 3: And maybe the issue is that they haven't been taking

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Speaker 3: it enough.

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Speaker 2: And then they're therefore burning out any So I think

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Speaker 2: it's very much a case by case basis, and certainly

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Speaker 2: you need to have metrics to trap to know that

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Speaker 2: you are not meeting your company goals.

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Speaker 3: But I don't think it's as black and white as

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Speaker 3: if you're not meeting X, then why it has to go?

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Speaker 1: I want to shift gears now into looking at you

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Speaker 1: as a leader of the business and what's it been

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Speaker 1: like for you as a CEO working a four day week.

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Speaker 1: So I do feel very privileged that I can do

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Speaker 1: this and that we add invent him are very very

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Speaker 1: lucky that we have a highly motivated and engaged team

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Speaker 1: that are very easy to trust without any kind of

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Speaker 1: concerns at all. I think the best thing though, for

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Speaker 1: me as a CEO is that I genuinely believe that

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Speaker 1: it makes me better at my job.

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Speaker 3: It absolutely reduces my stress. It gives me more thinking,

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Speaker 3: reflection and reading time.

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Speaker 2: It gives me a free day with no meetings, so

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Speaker 2: if I need to do deeper thinking or catch up

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Speaker 2: on something that didn't get done on the other four days,

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Speaker 2: I can do that on a Friday as.

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Speaker 3: Opposed to taking that into the weekend.

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Speaker 2: So that then enables me to have more balance in

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Speaker 2: my life and to feel really refreshed come Monday.

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Speaker 3: And I think the other thing is that it just

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Speaker 3: challenges you to continually.

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Speaker 2: Be more effective and to help others be the same.

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Speaker 2: And that's the really rewarding aspect, as you can help

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Speaker 2: people to do really well at work and have them

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Speaker 2: feel really great at that, but also to help them

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Speaker 2: to allocate more time to their families and passions outside

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Speaker 2: of work.

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Speaker 1: What do you typically do on your Friday off? Like,

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Speaker 1: what are the some of the ways that you're using it.

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Speaker 2: So I've been working remotely for about three years now

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Speaker 2: from home, and one of the downsides of working at

447
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,959
Speaker 2: home is that you don't have as much social interaction

448
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 2: or opportunity to meet new people, and it's very easy

449
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 2: to get stuck in the house behind your desk all

450
00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 2: day with limited incidental or planned exercise, talking to the

451
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,239
Speaker 2: station or walking to get lunch and stuff like that.

452
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 3: So one of the things that I filled my fifth.

453
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 2: Day with is learning how to play golf, which has

454
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 2: been amazing socially, mentally, and physically. I've been able to

455
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 2: meet so many more wonderful people in my local community.

456
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,159
Speaker 3: I'd also tix the exercise box.

457
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 2: It's also highly strategic and requires a different type of

458
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 2: focus in a totally different way. I've also been able

459
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 2: to volunteer within the club, which was something that was

460
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 2: really important to me as well. It's also something I

461
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,359
Speaker 2: can do with my partner and so while like I

462
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 2: know that the team is very very sick of me

463
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 2: talking about my handicap reductions and various golfing escapades. It's

464
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,440
Speaker 2: been absolutely one of the best things that I've ever

465
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,639
Speaker 2: done in terms of getting balanced back in my life,

466
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 2: and I honestly don't think I would have been able

467
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 2: to do that without the four day week.

468
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 1: You're very humble, wish like volunteering within the clas like

469
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 1: president or something like that.

470
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 3: No, not quite. I'm vice cat and at the moment.

471
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 4: Yes, advice under achiever. Yeah, that's fun. And what's your handicap?

472
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 1: For the people that do actually know something about golf

473
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 1: unlike me.

474
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 2: So my handicap is down to twenty six, which I

475
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 2: started at forty five in May.

476
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 3: So it's coming down quite quickly, which is very nice.

477
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:22,360
Speaker 4: Is that good?

478
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 1: When golfers listening go oh wow, she's like not quite

479
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 1: let they would.

480
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,880
Speaker 3: Go, Okay, she's working that, she's come down quick. She's

481
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 3: got potential.

482
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,199
Speaker 2: It's probably what they would say. That's certainly not a

483
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 2: superstarist yet.

484
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 4: That's funny because Shad took.

485
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 1: Up bar teaching, so we talked about last week about

486
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 1: how she's in the middle of learning to be a

487
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 1: bar teacher, and it's funny because I didn't actually know

488
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 1: that she was becoming a teacher mish.

489
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 4: This was new news to me.

490
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 1: On the I knew that she was really into bar

491
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,160
Speaker 1: and doing lots of classes. But I've suggested that we'll

492
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 1: have to do some virtual bar classes.

493
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 4: I used to do bar all the time. I think

494
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 4: you might remember that. Yeah, yeah, it's funny. For me.

495
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 1: I have not taken up physical movement, although I do

496
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,959
Speaker 1: incorporate physical movement into every day, so that's part of

497
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,199
Speaker 1: my habits, I guess, But yeah, for me, as you know,

498
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:18,440
Speaker 1: I decided with that fifth day, which felt really weird.

499
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 4: I remember the.

500
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 1: First time I had the Friday off and I'm like,

501
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 1: what do I do if I'm not working? Because I

502
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: love my work and I love immersing myself in work.

503
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 1: So I just decided to create more work, strictly speaking,

504
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 1: in ventive. So that's what led to me creating a

505
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 1: second podcast, how to Date, which some listeners might be

506
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 1: familiar with because I do plug it occasionally on this show.

507
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: But that's been super fun for me. It's so rewarding

508
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 1: starting a project from scratch, or in your case, starting

509
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 1: a new hobby or learning a new skill and just

510
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: experiencing that sense of mastery and getting in flow with

511
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 1: something else that has nothing to do with your main job.

512
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 1: I think is like, it really is a gift. You know,

513
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,439
Speaker 1: we call it gift of the fifth, but it really

514
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 1: has been a gift I think for both of us. Yeah, yeah, absolutely,

515
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 1: And how do you assess during the week whether you

516
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: can take the gift of the fifth, whether you can

517
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 1: take Friday off.

518
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 2: I guess that what I would look at is how

519
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 2: the team's going to be honest, and if everyone is

520
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 2: on track and if everyone is feeling like they're kicking

521
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 2: goals in their role, then I feel like my job

522
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,639
Speaker 2: is done because I've been clear on what again, what

523
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 2: those bigger picture goals are and what the expectations are,

524
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 2: and as I've been very lucky to see over the

525
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,640
Speaker 2: six month trials that we're actually well ahead in our

526
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 2: company goals.

527
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 3: So that means that I'm very comfortable with taking the

528
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 3: fifth day off.

529
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 2: I also have an amazing, amazing, amazing right hand Georgia,

530
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,879
Speaker 2: our general manager, who actually one of her operas is

531
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 2: around supporting me to make sure that I can take

532
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 2: the four day week, So that means that she definitely

533
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 2: helps me out on any projects that I'm working on

534
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 2: to make sure that I can also take that day

535
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 2: as well, which I absolutely think is massively important that

536
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 2: I do so that I can role model it for

537
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 2: others in the team. Do you start each week on

538
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 2: the Monday going, this is what I want to achieve

539
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 2: for the week, and if I achieve that, then, on

540
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 2: top of what you said about the team and how

541
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,680
Speaker 2: they're performing, that you personally feel pretty good about taking

542
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 2: the Friday off. So I do that for each day,

543
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 2: so I have ever since I went remote. The one

544
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 2: thing that I changed about my working ways so that

545
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 2: I didn't have that guilt around working remotely, which is

546
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 2: huge when you start working remotely or have any degree

547
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 2: of flexibility for the first time, is that each day

548
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 2: I set my goal of what is the most valuable

549
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 2: thing I could possibly do that day, and that would

550
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 2: be the first thing that I basically do that day,

551
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 2: and that I make sure that I get done, and

552
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 2: sometimes I might finish that at lunchtime, and then then

553
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 2: means that the afternoon I can do more shallow work

554
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 2: or even heaven forbid, housework or whatever else needs to

555
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 2: be done in my life, or sometimes it might take

556
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 2: till till quite late in the day to get something done.

557
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 2: But I just know as long as I've done that

558
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 2: one valuable thing for the day that helps us progress

559
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 2: as a company, then that certainly justifies the four day

560
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 2: week for me.

561
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: And what's an example of that one thing that you

562
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 1: might need to do on a particular day.

563
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 3: It would depend on what we've got going on.

564
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 2: But say even in the holidays, we had a new

565
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 2: startup starting first day back of our new year. So

566
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 2: I would set myself a goal to say, all right,

567
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 2: her whole induction plan needs to be done tomorrow before

568
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 2: I do anything else, because that is critical to her

569
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 2: success that I get that induction plan done and out

570
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 2: to her and communicated the team. So it would be

571
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 2: kind of a discrete, one off, little projeck like that that,

572
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 2: as I say, might take probably usually nothing shorter than

573
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 2: two hours, or it could be.

574
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 3: Longer than that as well.

575
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's interesting that you do that daily.

576
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: I think for me, I more look at it as

577
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: a week long thing for me. For the pasty year

578
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 1: or so, I've been using just a personal can bandboard

579
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: system where basically there's three columns. I'm actually looking at

580
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: it now and turning around, so I'm hoping my voice

581
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 1: is still coming through the mic where I've got three columns,

582
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: so I've got to do column A doing and are

583
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,959
Speaker 1: done and things move to the towards the right columns

584
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: during the week, and essentially the to do list, what

585
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 1: are the big, chunky, deep work esque things that I

586
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 1: want to do this week that will mean that I'm

587
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 1: making meaningful progress on my own operas or OKRs, And

588
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: so long as everything's moved to the right or is

589
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 1: at least almost at the right, because there might be

590
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 1: roadblocks that I come across that I need to involve

591
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 1: other people and so therefore it might not all get done.

592
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 1: Like let's say I'm waiting for my dad to do

593
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: an edit on a video or a podcast interview or.

594
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 4: Something like that. Then I'll be okay, I think I

595
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 4: can do this.

596
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 1: But I find that I will often do just an

597
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 1: hour of work on Fridays, not often, maybe half the time.

598
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: I'd probably do an hour maybe two hours of work

599
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 1: on a Friday, which I actually really love because it's

600
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 1: so peaceful. I'm purely doing it because I'm just personally

601
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: motivated to do that to get ahead on something or

602
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 1: wrap up something, or just feel that sense of closure

603
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: on just a few kind of loose ends that were

604
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: hanging around that there's not necessarily a deadline. I don't

605
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 1: necessarily have to get it done, but I do. Yeah,

606
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 1: there's something really nice I find about just doing one

607
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 1: or two hours in the morning, but then still knowing

608
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 1: that I've got the rest of the day to do.

609
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 4: Whatever i want to do that day. Have you had

610
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 4: that experience as well?

611
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 1: Because I know that often if I do send an

612
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 1: email on a Friday, I will maybe half the time

613
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 1: get a response from you.

614
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 3: I'm probably the same. I probably still do one or

615
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 3: two hours, but.

616
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 2: That just feels so leisurely and a pleasure to do

617
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 2: it on that day as opposed to it cutting into

618
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 2: my weekend time. And I also know that no one

619
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 2: is expecting me to work or expecting me to apply,

620
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 2: so then that then makes it a completely free use

621
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 2: of time to get ahead on anything I need to

622
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 2: or to finish anything I didn't do in the other

623
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 2: four days.

624
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 1: And in those other four days for the skeptics out there, going, yeah, yeah,

625
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 1: four days, but they're probably like ten or twelve hour days.

626
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 1: What's an average length day for you? Now that we're

627
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 1: well and truly into this four day week way of working.

628
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they're definitely not long days. That's really important

629
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 2: to note. I actually wouldn't have a clue what my

630
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 2: average days because again, I just focused so much on

631
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 2: outcomes over hours. It's probably fairly typical if I was

632
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 2: to sit down and work it out a seven or

633
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 2: eight hour day. But I also structure my day quite differently,

634
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 2: whereby I am a bit of an hour whereby I

635
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 2: commonly get my second wind of brain power late in

636
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,959
Speaker 2: the day, so sometimes I might start later in the morning,

637
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 2: but I might do another couple of power hours in

638
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 2: the evening as well. But I would say it's definitely

639
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 2: not trying to fit a thirty eight hour week into

640
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 2: four days.

641
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 3: Absolutely not. Yeah.

642
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 4: Good, And are you taking lunch breaks, mish?

643
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 2: I am I taking lunch bakes, I take a brunch break.

644
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 2: So I'm a serial cafe worker whereby, and I can

645
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 2: safely say this now that Melbourne people are actually allowed

646
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 2: to go to cafe, so I won't offend anyone. But yeah,

647
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 2: I commonly work for a couple of hours at a cafe. Well,

648
00:33:55,400 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 2: they make me my food and my lunch for the day.

649
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 1: And has there been any downsides. Do you think to

650
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: this four day week way of working?

651
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 2: Oh, I need to ask me this, and I look,

652
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 2: I really did think about it, hard to go all right,

653
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 2: really and really what are the downtipes? And I really

654
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 2: struggled to answer this. I think that the most frustrating

655
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 2: bit is probably when I talk to other people about

656
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 2: it and I see them working ridiculously long hours and

657
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:28,839
Speaker 2: then I say, oh, I'm doing this amazing thing called

658
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,800
Speaker 2: four day week, and they look at me like I'm crazy,

659
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 2: and they just well, that's impossible for me.

660
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:35,760
Speaker 3: I can't do that. I'm so busy.

661
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 2: I've got xyz on Like, there's no way my organization

662
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 2: could do that because we're just so busy. And that's

663
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 2: really frustrating to me because I just look at it

664
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 2: and go, no, like, you're probably just working on the

665
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,439
Speaker 2: wrong things or working completely ineffectively.

666
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 3: I really don't see.

667
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 2: Why this can't work in places, And I think that

668
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 2: it absolutely challenges you to be better at working on

669
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 2: write things and working effectively, and to then balance that

670
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 2: with your home life as well, because you see all

671
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,240
Speaker 2: these people working these crazy hours and that's not only

672
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:10,399
Speaker 2: impacting on their.

673
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 3: Quality of work, but also the quality of their relationships

674
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 3: at home, which is just terrible.

675
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 2: So I think that's the most frustrating thing that so

676
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:22,919
Speaker 2: many people discount this idea when there are so many advantages.

677
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's funny the downside thing.

678
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 1: I remember I was asked that question I did in

679
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 1: an interview about the four day week with Sky News

680
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 1: a little while ago. And the media want there to

681
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 1: be a downside because that's that's what's interesting, that's what

682
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 1: gets clicks or whatever. But yeah, I personally can't think

683
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 1: of any downsides either, which you know, it's a bit

684
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 1: of a letdown of an answer, but.

685
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,399
Speaker 3: So far, so good. We'll come back to anyone if

686
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 3: we find some.

687
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right.

688
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're seven months in, and what's been most challenging

689
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 1: for you in leading a company that only works four

690
00:35:58,200 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 1: days a week.

691
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,319
Speaker 2: The biggest thing I would say here is that you

692
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,840
Speaker 2: do need to really think carefully about how you recruit

693
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 2: and on board new people because.

694
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 3: This level of flexibility and this level of trust.

695
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,800
Speaker 2: That's associated with something like four day week will likely

696
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 2: be very, very different to what anybody has experienced elsewhere,

697
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 2: and that transition takes a bit of getting used to.

698
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 3: So some of the things we've done at Inventum to.

699
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 2: Help with this is that we've actually tweaked our company

700
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 2: values to align with our very flexible ways of working

701
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 2: and integrated these into our recruitment process.

702
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 3: So we change the way that we interview, we change.

703
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,279
Speaker 2: A couple of the tasks that we do, and we

704
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 2: also spent a lot of time integrating productivity tools and

705
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 2: training and meeting minimization and ways of working to ensure

706
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 2: that everybody as a team can work their best.

707
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 3: I think you can't assume that everybody has those skills.

708
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 2: People certainly need to be given training and tools into

709
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 2: how they can work more effectively.

710
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 3: I think we've had as a result of doing some

711
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 3: of those things.

712
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,840
Speaker 2: As I said, we've had this amazing new startu Sasha

713
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 2: come on board only a couple of weeks ago, and

714
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 2: she's already given some really fabulous feedback on some of

715
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 2: these tools and how helpful they've been for her coming

716
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 2: on board and really fast tracking getting to know others

717
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 2: on the team and how they work. So I think

718
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:29,240
Speaker 2: focusing on how you recruit and how you're onboard into.

719
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 3: This way of working is definitely something to focus on.

720
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 1: I think the recruitment things really interesting, and I'm wondering,

721
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 1: can you give an example of a value that did

722
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 1: change and invent him and how we've then translated that

723
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 1: into incorporating that as part of our recruitment process.

724
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 3: So pretty much.

725
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 2: All of them actually have a link into this way

726
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 2: of working. But one of the example that I can

727
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 2: give you is around is called better than before. So

728
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 2: this is about how we all strive to make each other,

729
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 2: our clients in the world better with everything that we do,

730
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 2: and we basically expect our staff to just constantly improve things.

731
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 2: And just because we do it one way doesn't mean

732
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 2: it's the best way. Always find ways to work more

733
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 2: quarterly or more efficiently and do things better and to

734
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:22,320
Speaker 2: share that with the team.

735
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 3: So what we did is that in.

736
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 2: An early stage in the recruitment process, we got all

737
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 2: of our candidates to do.

738
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 3: A video where they shared how they've.

739
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 2: Made something better than before and a change that they've

740
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 2: made to make things better. And that was just an

741
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 2: early taste in the recruitment process to one of our values.

742
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: And what's another example, because I think these tangible examples

743
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 1: of how we've done that are really important because I

744
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 1: think it's easier said than done. Just like hire people

745
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:55,799
Speaker 1: that can work independently and autonomously and that you can

746
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,320
Speaker 1: trust like that is a very very hard.

747
00:38:58,160 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 4: Thing to do.

748
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 1: And I mean we've been working together for seven years

749
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 1: and every time we recruit, we iterate that recruitment process.

750
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,879
Speaker 1: So what's another example or two of how we do

751
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,799
Speaker 1: that and how we find these unique people who we

752
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:11,879
Speaker 1: know are going to thrive and invent herem So.

753
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 3: Another one that we have is called progress over.

754
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 2: Perfection, which's reflective of how fast we move and how

755
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 2: quickly we all need to learn, and the fact that

756
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 2: we all need to have that change orientation and to

757
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 2: be able to change often. So what we encourage everyone

758
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 2: to do is to constantly test and adapt based.

759
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 3: On what you learn. So Fortite Week is actually a

760
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 3: great example of this where we've positioned it as an experiment.

761
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 2: We've put in place metrics, we've tested them, we've all

762
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 2: adapted our behaviors based on what we learn, and as

763
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 2: a result, we've actually implemented this process. But we absolutely

764
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 2: encourage this as individuals, and we want people to either

765
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 2: adapt or acknowledge if something's failed and change as a

766
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 2: result of the failure.

767
00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 3: So in the recruitment.

768
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:03,280
Speaker 2: Process, we did a interview about the middle of the process,

769
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,919
Speaker 2: which basically dell. We got our candidates to delve into

770
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 2: a time where they've failed and what they learned from that.

771
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 2: So one other example I give you is our FI value,

772
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 2: which is make it happen. And this is reflective of

773
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 2: the fact that we are a small yet highly flexible

774
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 2: and impactful team with big aspirations to keep big goals.

775
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 2: And what we want to encourage is that everybody takes

776
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:31,400
Speaker 2: personal responsibility for making an inventing an awesome place to

777
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:35,320
Speaker 2: work and really repaying the trust that things like four.

778
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,360
Speaker 3: Day week really gives people.

779
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 2: And so what we did in the recruitment process is

780
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 2: we got people to give us their best working and

781
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,320
Speaker 2: productivity tip to make sure that they get important stuff done,

782
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 2: to give us a sense of how they think about

783
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 2: finding efficiencies and how they think about taking personal responsibility

784
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 2: to make things happen. So we actually learn a lot

785
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 2: from that too, because we've got some really cool productivity

786
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 2: tips from our candidates through.

787
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 1: That awesome and one final thing I want to explore

788
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 1: is I imagine that there are some listeners who are like, ah,

789
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 1: I wouldn't mind suggesting this to my CEO or my boss,

790
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 1: or maybe they are the boss or CEO and they

791
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 1: want to start trying it. What advice would you give

792
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 1: to those people.

793
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 2: So I do have a few top tips here that

794
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 2: I would say. The first one would be to frame

795
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:33,360
Speaker 2: it as an experiment. You will absolutely come across skeptics.

796
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 2: You will absolutely come across a whole heap of assumptions

797
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,399
Speaker 2: that people will hold around why this will not work

798
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 2: and why this will be terrible. So the best thing

799
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 2: you can do to overcome all of those is to

800
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 2: simply frame it as an experiment, set some metrics, and.

801
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 3: Use this data that you collect to crush all the assumptions.

802
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 2: The second one, which we have talked about I would

803
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:56,239
Speaker 2: highly recommend as well, is to give it a name

804
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:59,319
Speaker 2: that reflects your intents, So similar to gift of the

805
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 2: fifth what reflects.

806
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 3: The intent of the four day week at your organization.

807
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 2: The third tip that I would say would be to

808
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 2: absolutely role model it. As a leader. You must take

809
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:15,439
Speaker 2: the fifth day, otherwise no one else will absolutely book

810
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 2: in something that you love to do every Friday. That

811
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,439
Speaker 2: ensures that you do take today exactly like I've done

812
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 2: with my golf And I would say try and avoid

813
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 2: sending emails to your team if you can. We do

814
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 2: still a little bit, but definitely it's massively reduced, and

815
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 2: if anything, it's reduced.

816
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 3: All the weekend emails that we probably used to send.

817
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 2: There might be a couple on Friday, but there's never

818
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 2: any on the weekend, very minimal anyway.

819
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 3: So the other part of that would be to share

820
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 3: how you've used the day.

821
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 2: So one of the things that we do is on

822
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:47,840
Speaker 2: a Monday team meeting, we have a standing agenda item

823
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 2: for people to share anything interesting or fun that they

824
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,680
Speaker 2: did on their gift of the fifth, which is really

825
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 2: great to show how grateful we all are for the

826
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 2: day and all of the various things that we've been

827
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:01,759
Speaker 2: able to do as a result. The final thing I

828
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,879
Speaker 2: would say that is it's possibly not as radical as

829
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 2: people think. There are quite a number of companies out

830
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,240
Speaker 2: there already trialing it, and some of the world's most

831
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:14,240
Speaker 2: productive countries I know, like Norway and Denmark and Germany.

832
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 2: I think you already work an average week of around

833
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:21,320
Speaker 2: twenty seven hours and they're still super productive. So definitely

834
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 2: don't think be scared of it. I would recommend setting

835
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 2: up an experiment and giving it a.

836
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 1: Go awesome advice and finally, mish if people want to

837
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 1: connect with you, what is the best way for them

838
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 1: to do that?

839
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 3: You can find me on LinkedIn, So Michelle.

840
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 2: Lapoidevin, I do have a long surname, but I'm sure

841
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 2: you will find me there. Otherwise, email Michelle at inventium

842
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 2: dot com dot au and I love talking about this stuff,

843
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:49,320
Speaker 2: so happy to answer any questions that anyone has on email.

844
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 4: Famous last words.

845
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:58,320
Speaker 1: Yes, it's been wonderful having you on the show again

846
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,320
Speaker 1: and unpacking the four day week. And look, I'm sure

847
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:05,479
Speaker 1: that we have inspired or encouraged people who are maybe

848
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 1: on the fence to really think about giving it a

849
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 1: go and running an experiment. So thank you so much

850
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 1: for your time, no wries, thank you.

851
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 4: That is it for today's show. If you are enjoying

852
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 4: How I Work.

853
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:21,239
Speaker 1: I would be so so, so so appreciative if you

854
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 1: took ten seconds out of your day to pop into

855
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, if that's where you listen to it, and

856
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:30,439
Speaker 1: just tap on the star rating. You scroll right down

857
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 1: to the bottom of the How I Work Show and

858
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 1: tap on a star rating, and you might even want

859
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 1: to write a little note of some feedback and I'm

860
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 1: so appreciative of the hundreds of people that have done this.

861
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:43,839
Speaker 3: It really does make my day.

862
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 4: So thank you, thank you.

863
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:48,800
Speaker 1: So that is it for today's show and I will

864
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 1: see you next time.