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Speaker 1: Well. Unions NT claim the COLP government's changes to anti

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Speaker 1: discrimination laws are going to undermine workers' rights and the

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Speaker 1: territory lifestyle. The reforms that we know pass through Parliament overnight.

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Speaker 1: They're going to remove vague language that made it unlawful

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Speaker 1: to cause offense and replace it with a higher legal threshold,

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Speaker 1: being conduct that incites hatred, serious contempt to all, severe ridicule.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: The reforms also restore the ability for faith based schools

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Speaker 1: to prioritize staff who upload their religious values uphold. I

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Speaker 1: should say g I'm struggling with my words this morning. Now.

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Speaker 1: Unions claim that the reforms will erode the rights of

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Speaker 1: queer and transgender workers, lead to a rise in racist remarks,

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Speaker 1: and make legal recourse harder. Joining me on the line

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Speaker 1: is the ASU's assistant secretary, Ella Waters. Good morning, Ella.

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Speaker 3: Hi Katie, thanks for having me on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, lovely to have you on the show. Now, Ella

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Speaker 1: tells us, can you break down the union's concerns in

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Speaker 1: relation to the changes to antidiscrimination laws.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: We say that these changes take the territory backwards because

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Speaker 2: they strip away protections that were working really well and

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Speaker 2: for already marginalized people at greater risk of harm and discrimination.

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Speaker 2: There's no evidence that this was needed and no real

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Speaker 2: consultation with the people most affected by these changes, and

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Speaker 2: we say it's unnecessary and a dangerous step back for

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Speaker 2: equality in the NP.

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Speaker 1: Break down those concerns for us in terms of you

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Speaker 1: know what, like what you're sort of worried might happen

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Speaker 1: now with these changes. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, So what the government has done yesterday is we

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Speaker 2: can our hate speech protection, so the offensive or intimidating

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Speaker 2: behavior will only be unlawful if that incites hatred.

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Speaker 3: So that means a lot.

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Speaker 2: Of harmful behavior that was covered may no longer be

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Speaker 2: against the law. And on top of that, they've given

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Speaker 2: to school's new powers to discriminate in employment and workplace conduct,

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Speaker 2: So now a teacher, admin worker, or support staff member

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Speaker 2: could be refused a job or disciplined because of who

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Speaker 2: they are, including who they love, their personal circumstances like

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Speaker 2: being divorced or a single parent, if it's not in

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Speaker 2: line with the school's religious ideology.

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Speaker 3: We say they're.

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Speaker 2: Really unnecessary changes made without evidence, without consultation, and without

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Speaker 2: listening to the people who know what discrimination feels like

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Speaker 2: and that it's a step backwards.

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Speaker 1: I know, when the changes came into place under Labor

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Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, there was a lot like

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Speaker 1: a lot of different groups were coming on the show

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Speaker 1: and saying that they were really concerned about the changes

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Speaker 1: and that they were taking things too far. I mean,

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Speaker 1: what do you say to those that sort of wanted

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Speaker 1: these wound back a little?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So, I mean, I guess there's two parts to it.

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Speaker 2: So for example, with the religious school exemption now previously

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Speaker 2: to the or I guess with the twenty twenty two amendments,

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Speaker 2: there was still the ability for people to employ for

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Speaker 2: these organizations to employ people of their own faith for

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Speaker 2: genuine religious roles, but where the new changes from yesterday

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Speaker 2: would see all workers within a school, for example, having

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Speaker 2: these new changes applied to them. So, for example, you know,

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Speaker 2: you can imagine a teacher, perhaps in a religious based school,

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Speaker 2: has gone through a divorce. They're really good at their

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Speaker 2: job and they love their jobs, but under these changes,

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Speaker 2: their employer could decide that their personal life doesn't align

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Speaker 2: with their religious sensibilities of the school and they could

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Speaker 2: lose their job.

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Speaker 1: And I know as well that the unions sort of

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Speaker 1: raised and I guess, you know, it could be part

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Speaker 1: of that scenario, you know, raise the fact that there

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Speaker 1: has to be that higher legal threshold when it comes

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Speaker 1: to legal recourse.

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Speaker 3: Also, yeah, look, we certainly, along with a lot of

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Speaker 3: community organizations, have questioned the COLP, stay that these changes

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Speaker 3: will be easier to understand because we don't feel that

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Speaker 3: the CLP have adequately explained what this change will mean

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Speaker 3: in their view.

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Speaker 2: In practice, we certainly didn't see the sky fall in

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Speaker 2: under the twenty twenty two changes. There was not a

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Speaker 2: significance spiking complaints, but there was certainly a strong message

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Speaker 2: that everyone in the territory deserves respect and protection from

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Speaker 2: hate speech.

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Speaker 1: I know that issued a statement overnight and said that

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Speaker 1: the incitement model, which is already used in most Australian jurisdictions,

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Speaker 1: provides a better balance between freedom of speech and the

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Speaker 1: right to non discrimination and equity. They reckon that labor

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Speaker 1: tried the will tied I should say, the hands of

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Speaker 1: territorians and blurred those lines between genuine discrimination and simply

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Speaker 1: expressing an opinion. And they've changed that. I mean, what

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Speaker 1: do you say to that claim by the CLP.

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Speaker 2: So, until until now, the Northern Territory was seen as

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Speaker 2: a real leader in anti discrimination law, and the laws

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Speaker 2: that you refer to were really in line with the

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Speaker 2: Commonwealth Act. So the twenty twenty two reforms gave us

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Speaker 2: some of the strongest protections in the country, which we

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Speaker 2: say were modern and balanced and built after years of

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Speaker 2: consultation with the community, which I think is really important

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Speaker 2: to add. Whereas these changes really were done quickly with

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Speaker 2: very limited consultation for those who are really going to

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Speaker 2: be impacted by this.

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Speaker 3: So every other state and.

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Speaker 2: Territory, we say, have been moving in the opposite direction

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Speaker 2: to what the CLP government's doing right now, and it's

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Speaker 2: a terrible shame.

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Speaker 1: Ella. I know that as part of the pressure release

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Speaker 1: that you guys sent out yesterday, you said that these

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Speaker 1: changes are going to impact the territory lifestyle. How do

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Speaker 1: you reckon they're going to do that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean our members at the ASU work in

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Speaker 2: the social and community sector and they tell us stories about,

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Speaker 2: for example, people with disability who they support day to day,

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Speaker 2: people are now well people under this change. Disability advocates

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Speaker 2: are telling us that their clients and participants have said

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Speaker 2: that they're concerned about catching the bus, they are concerned

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Speaker 2: about going out, so much, and they're considering withdrawing from

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Speaker 2: community life because they're scared of what they might cop.

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Speaker 2: We say that that's not freedom, that is actually fear,

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Speaker 2: and it's exactly what the twenty twenty two protections were

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Speaker 2: meant to prevent. And the Northern Territory, you know, should

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Speaker 2: have a proud reputation of making people in the community

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Speaker 2: feel safe and protected.

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Speaker 1: Now, we just had a message come through that said,

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Speaker 1: good morning, Katie. When you speak to the union, can

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Speaker 1: you ask them to be specific and give an example

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Speaker 1: of what was covered previously but not covered now. Pedro says,

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Speaker 1: I get so annoyed with the negative attitudes from the left.

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Speaker 2: Oh okay, So I mean, certainly, the increase to incitement

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Speaker 2: of hatred and serious contempt is a really high bar,

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Speaker 2: and that was what was changed yesterday. So in practice

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Speaker 2: it means that not only if someone it's not only

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Speaker 2: that someone may be sorry intimidating someone or you know,

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Speaker 2: yelling hate speech at someone. They now the bar, we

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Speaker 2: understand is that they have to be inciting others to

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Speaker 2: do so as well.

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Speaker 3: So we just think that that bar is.

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Speaker 2: Way too high and does not protect people in our community.

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Speaker 1: Well, good to speak to you this morning.

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Speaker 3: Ella.

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Speaker 1: I know that everybody's got pretty different opinions when it

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Speaker 1: comes to you know, when it comes to these changes.

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Speaker 1: I know some people feel that they go too far,

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Speaker 1: some people feel they're not going far enough. It's you know,

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Speaker 1: it's I guess time will tell, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Katie, can I just finish by saying that it's

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Speaker 2: a time when Territorians are really struggling with a lot

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Speaker 2: of issues like the cost of living and housing. The

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Speaker 2: government's chosen to focus on taking away rights and protections

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Speaker 2: instead of helping people. So we think that this is

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Speaker 2: a terrible use of their time and energy lawering the

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Speaker 2: thresholds for hate speech, and that they should be focusing

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Speaker 2: on really important work that protects territory. And so thanks

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Speaker 2: for the having me on.

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Speaker 1: No worries at all, will as you, Assistant Secretary Ella Waters,

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Speaker 1: thanks so much for your time this morning.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you,