1 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 2 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: used by the world's most successful people to get so 3 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 1: much out of their day. 4 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 2: I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imba. 5 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:18,800 Speaker 1: I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, 6 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 1: and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work day. 7 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: So the next few weeks over summer, I am dipping 8 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: back into the archives of the last two and a 9 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:35,160 Speaker 1: half years of hosting How I Work, and I want 10 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: to share some of my absolute favorite episodes. So for today, 11 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: I'm going to share with you the very first interview 12 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 1: that I conducted and published for How I Work, which 13 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: was with one of my personal heroes, Adam Grant. So 14 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: in case you're not familiar with Adam, he is an 15 00:00:56,400 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: organizational psychologist, best selling author, and Wharton's highest rated professor. 16 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: His books Give and Take, Originals and Option B have 17 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,039 Speaker 1: sold over one million copies and have been translated into 18 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: thirty five languages. Adam has been recognized as one of 19 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: the world's ten most influential management thinkers, and he also 20 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: happens to be the host of one of my favorite podcasts, 21 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: Work Lack, which is a TED original podcast. 22 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,679 Speaker 2: Now, what I loved most about this chat is that. 23 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 1: Adam is not only a walking encyclopedia of psychology findings, 24 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: but it is fascinating to hear about how he applies 25 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: these findings in his own life to be more productive. 26 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: And finally, before we go to the interview, if you 27 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: are enjoying How I Work, If you enjoy this episode, 28 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: I would love it if you could leave a review 29 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: or a star rating in Apple Podcasts. It is just 30 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: brilliant getting a listener feedback, and it also helps spread 31 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: the word to other people that might want to dip 32 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: into How I Work. And of course, if you are 33 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 1: a listener to How I Work, you might want to 34 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: subscribe and that way you'll get alerted as to whenever 35 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: new episodes drop. So, without further ado, let's head to 36 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,079 Speaker 1: Adam to hear about how he works. 37 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:12,639 Speaker 2: Welcome to the show. 38 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 3: Thanks Amantha. 39 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,679 Speaker 1: Now, people talk about being productive, but I don't think 40 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: I've ever met anyone on your level. So, your books 41 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: have sold over a million copies, Your TED talks have 42 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: been viewed over. 43 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 2: Twelve million times. 44 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: You've written a huge number of academic papers in well 45 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: established and very well respected journals, and you've been Wharton's 46 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 1: top rated professor for the last seven years. And then 47 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 1: if that wasn't enough, your somehow managed to be a 48 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: junior Olympic springboard diver and a professional magician. And when 49 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 1: I learned all this about you, I thought, well, you know, 50 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: if you were seventy years old, that would be incredibly impressive. 51 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 1: But you've actually packed this all into thirty six years, 52 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: and so I've got a ton of questions on how 53 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: on earth you may that all happen. 54 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 3: Well, that's very kind of you. I don't feel very 55 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 3: productive on most days, so this is this is gonna 56 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 3: be one of those one of those conversations where I 57 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 3: have no idea how to answer some of the questions 58 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 3: you're gonna ask, but I'll do my best. 59 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: Wonderful, wonderful, Well, why don't we start with the morning. 60 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: I'm really keen to know what does a typical morning 61 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:23,519 Speaker 1: look like for you, if there is such a thing, 62 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: and what are the critical ingredients in your morning that 63 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: helps set you up for a good day. 64 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 3: You know, it's changed a lot since we had kids. 65 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 3: I would say before kids, I would basically wake up 66 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 3: in the morning and sit down at my computer and 67 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 3: work until I ran out of ideas, and you know, 68 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 3: sometimes that would mean I sat for four or five hours. 69 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 3: Sometimes I would work until late at night, and you know, 70 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 3: obviously i'd get up to eat and stuff like that. 71 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 3: But I really liked just waking up and digging right 72 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 3: into a project and then being laser focused on it 73 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 3: for as long as I could. And once we had kids, 74 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 3: obviously I decided I was going to change my schedule, 75 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 3: and so now it's much more of I wake up 76 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 3: in the morning, we have family time, our kids go 77 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 3: off to school, and then once our kids leave, I 78 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 3: start working and my goal is to finish when our 79 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 3: kids get home and then not work again until after 80 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 3: their sleep at night. 81 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 2: Wow. 82 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: That sounds incredibly well balanced, and I can definitely relate 83 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 1: to just the schedule changing. 84 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 2: When you become a parent, everything changes. 85 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,280 Speaker 1: And I'm curious, like when you sit down at your 86 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,919 Speaker 1: computer when the kids are off for the day, like, 87 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 1: what are the first few things that you do to 88 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 1: get into to that zone. 89 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 3: I think that in an ideal world, what I do 90 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 3: is I actually spend a little time the night before. 91 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 3: If I'm going to work on something creative the next morning, 92 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 3: the night before I'll spend a few minutes, just kind 93 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 3: of mapping out a few ideas, and then when I 94 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 3: wake up, I find that I processed some of them 95 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 3: a little bit, and you know, whatever version of so 96 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,159 Speaker 3: conscious thought you believe in, and then I feel like 97 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 3: I can I can just hit the ground running. 98 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 2: That's awesome. So you're kind of sleeping on the problem, 99 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 2: so to speak. 100 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:12,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess. I don't know if it hurts the 101 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 3: quality of my sleep, but it definitely helps the quality 102 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 3: of my work. 103 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 2: That's excellent. I love it. I love it. 104 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: And on the topic of academic work, I was really 105 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: intrigued when I read Callum Newport's deep work about how 106 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 1: you that's your teaching work in the fall semester and 107 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:32,359 Speaker 1: research work in the spring and summer semesters. And firstly, 108 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: I'm curious, is that still accurate? Is that still what 109 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: you do? 110 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 3: It is? Yeah, I've always taught in the far and 111 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 3: I just I feel like teaching is an immersive experience where, 112 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 3: you know, I want to spend time in the classroom 113 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 3: getting to know my students, figuring out what kinds of 114 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 3: questions they have. You know, every year I redesigned twenty 115 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 3: percent of the course. I'd like to redesign more, but 116 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:57,679 Speaker 3: I don't want to subject the students to the terrible 117 00:05:57,720 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 3: ideas that I've had every year. And so I figure, 118 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 3: if two percent stays constant, then you know, there's there 119 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 3: at least some major elements that are tried and true 120 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:09,280 Speaker 3: that have gone reasonably well. But you know, and then 121 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 3: I just spend a lot of time answering emails, you know, 122 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 3: doing meetings and office hours, and I didn't I didn't 123 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 3: want to have anything distract from that work wise, and 124 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 3: so you know, then I thought, okay, well, I'm going 125 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,840 Speaker 3: to have a semester that's that's teaching focused, and then 126 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 3: I'll have January through July every year to work on 127 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:31,480 Speaker 3: research and ideas and some of the other things that 128 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 3: I've I've brought into my job. And it's been a 129 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 3: nice balance in part because like right now it's it's 130 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 3: basically June, and I can't wait to get back in 131 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 3: the classroom, right I haven't been since December, and I'm like, 132 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 3: why am I not teaching? It's the most energizing part 133 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:51,919 Speaker 3: of my job. And you know, in December, I was 134 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 3: really eager. I had a whole bunch of ideas that 135 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 3: I wanted to develop, and I was excited to have 136 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:57,919 Speaker 3: more free time to work on them. And so I 137 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 3: feel like I get to alternate between two different jobs 138 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 3: that I love. 139 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 2: That's fantastic. I love that. 140 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 1: And was that something that you did right from the 141 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: stat of your academic career. 142 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 3: I think it's pretty common here in the States, at 143 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 3: least in business schools. I would say, so, I've done 144 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 3: it from day one. I always wanted to teach in 145 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 3: the fall because I remembered the excitement of going back 146 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 3: to school and how I couldn't wait to learn, and then, 147 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 3: you know, always feeling like in the spring semester, I 148 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 3: was like, Eh, I'm ready for the summer to come around. So, 149 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 3: you know, I felt like it was it was the 150 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 3: right time to really reach students and connect with them. 151 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 3: And I just, I guess, from from the very beginning, 152 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 3: I felt like I needed protected time to get research done, 153 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 3: and I also needed some boundaries to make sure that 154 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 3: that didn't spill into everything that I wanted to do 155 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 3: in the classroom and the relationships I wanted to build 156 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 3: with students. And so I guess, yeah, I've never known 157 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 3: it any other way. I've studiously avoided teaching in the 158 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 3: spring or in the not fall, I should say, although 159 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 3: I've occasionally done a week or so in the spring. 160 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 3: But that's about it. 161 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 2: Oh wow, fantastic. And I've also heard with emails. 162 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: Is it true that sometimes you will go a few 163 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: days without checking emails? No good to clarify that. What 164 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: I have heard about your inbox checking is that you 165 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: frame up the task of like you know, waiting, like 166 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 1: going through an inbox with let's say three hundred emails 167 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: in it, which I'm sure is a daily occurrence for 168 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: you in a really interesting way. Can you talk about 169 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: how you think about inbox checking. 170 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 3: Well, let me first say that email used to be 171 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 3: one of my favorite things. I remember in nineteen ninety 172 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 3: I sent my first email. I think it was either 173 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 3: nine or ten, and it was to a cousin in 174 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 3: Colorado and it took about forty eight hours. Yeah, I 175 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 3: mean it was. It was one of those defining moments 176 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 3: where I could not believe that I could type something 177 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 3: on the computer it was just a sentence or two, 178 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 3: and that it would, you know, somehow travel halfway across 179 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 3: the country. And so I I just loved email, and 180 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 3: I thought it was I guess it appealed to this. 181 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 3: I guess I'm really into efficiency, and it bothers me 182 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,079 Speaker 3: when something is inefficient, and so I love the fact 183 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 3: that with email I could I could reach multiple people 184 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 3: at once, and I could you know, respond to multiple 185 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 3: people quickly, as opposed to having separate phone conversations with 186 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 3: each of them all the time. And slowly, as I 187 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 3: went through college and moved into grad school, I started 188 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 3: to hate email and I wondered what happened. And what 189 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 3: happened was I started getting too much of it. And 190 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 3: you know, there's a curse. I'm sure you've experienced this 191 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 3: as well, that the more responsive you are, the more 192 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 3: email you get and so but but I didn't. I 193 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 3: didn't realize it at first. So, you know, it's really 194 00:09:57,400 --> 00:09:58,959 Speaker 3: important to me to get back to people, and so 195 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 3: often I think I went a couple of years where 196 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:04,679 Speaker 3: my average average email response time, you know, between morning 197 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 3: and evening was was just a few minutes max. And 198 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 3: you know, I took real I took pride in that 199 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 3: it was it was part of being there for people, 200 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 3: right And you know what I didn't what I didn't 201 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 3: quite realize at the time, was Okay, I'm incentivizing these 202 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 3: people to send me more emails. This is this is reinforcement, 203 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 3: and so you know that then the number of people 204 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 3: you'd know goes up. And so I just I just 205 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 3: ended up with with more emails than I could get 206 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 3: to in a day. And so I found myself, you know, 207 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:36,839 Speaker 3: especially if I was if I was working on a 208 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 3: big project, you know, it would be nighttime and I'd 209 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 3: have hundreds of emails accumulating, and I felt like I 210 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 3: couldn't keep up. And so the way that I motivated 211 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 3: myself was I said, look, this is something I've studied 212 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 3: in my research, and when a task is unpleasant, like 213 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 3: you know, trying to clear out three hundred emails, I'm 214 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 3: not going to motivate myself by thinking about the benefits 215 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 3: to me, because if I thought the activity was beneficial 216 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 3: to me, I would already be motivated to do it. 217 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 3: The only way to motivate myself is to ask myself, Okay, 218 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 3: what good is this going to do for the people 219 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 3: that I'm answering? And so I actually started going through 220 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 3: my inbox and sorting by where I could have the 221 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 3: most impact. And so it wasn't you know who emailed 222 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 3: me first, It wasn't necessarily you know who I knew best. 223 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:22,680 Speaker 3: It was where could I add the most value? And 224 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:24,680 Speaker 3: as I answered a few of those emails, I started 225 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 3: to get a rhythm and I started to feel like, 226 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 3: all right, you know what, this is kind of annoying 227 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 3: in you know, a aggreate, but I also feel like 228 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 3: I'm doing something useful here. And then you know that 229 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 3: that would give me the energy I needed to sort 230 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 3: of finish the task and get my inbox cleaned. 231 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 2: That is so cool. 232 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:43,319 Speaker 1: I'm completely going to change how I look at email 233 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:44,079 Speaker 1: after hearing that. 234 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 2: I love that. 235 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 3: I don't know if you should actually, you Knowmantha, I 236 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 3: think it's a risky idea because you don't want to 237 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 3: convince yourself to like email, because then you'll just spend 238 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:56,599 Speaker 3: all day every day doing email. I think you just 239 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 3: want to make it bearable. 240 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:01,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, well that's a good name, making email bearable. 241 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 2: I love that. 242 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:05,439 Speaker 1: And I guess like where email can be quite troublesome 243 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: for a lot of people is where they've got the 244 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 1: inbox open all day and they've got notifications popping up, 245 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 1: and they're just kind of doing, you know, the just 246 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 1: check of the email, and you seem to be someone 247 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: who is really good at fighting off those digital distractions 248 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: and just staying focused. 249 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 2: And I'm wondering, like, how do you do that? 250 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: What are your tricks for not being tempted by the 251 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: various digital distractions that are out there. 252 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 3: Well, you know, it's funny. I think I've been really 253 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 3: intrigued by the science of self control here, because if 254 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 3: you study self control, one of the things you will 255 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 3: see in the data is that people with high self 256 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 3: control actually exercise it less. So if you have really 257 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 3: great willpower, you use less willpower. And it sounds like 258 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,719 Speaker 3: a paradox, but the reason for that is anyone who 259 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 3: has good self control recognizes that it's easier to to 260 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 3: prevent yourself from getting into a situation where you have 261 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 3: to manage an impulse then it is to manage the 262 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 3: impulse in the moment. You know. It's the equivalent of saying, 263 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:14,199 Speaker 3: all right, I should probably set an alarm clock and 264 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 3: then put it halfway across the room so that when 265 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 3: I wake up in the morning, I am not tempted 266 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 3: to just hit this news button. And that's a habit 267 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 3: that I think you can carry throughout your day. And so, 268 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 3: you know, I think there are extreme versions of this 269 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 3: that I actually don't endorse. I guess you could go 270 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 3: cold turkey and say, all right, you know, I'm gonna 271 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 3: turn off all notifications, I'm not gonna check any technology. 272 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:38,439 Speaker 3: I'm gonna disconnect myself from the internet whatever I need 273 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:42,199 Speaker 3: to do. And I actually find some of those distractions 274 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 3: to be useful mini breaks. So you know, when I'm 275 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 3: stuck on an idea or a sentence when I'm writing, 276 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 3: I'll actually go over to Twitter and check it for 277 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,559 Speaker 3: you know, a minute or two. But I limit myself 278 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 3: on a clock, and I also usually have goals for 279 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 3: how much I have to finish before I'm allowed to 280 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 3: go over and check, and so that kind of helps. 281 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 3: And so you know, it's a simple thing, right saying 282 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 3: all right, I'm going to duse social media five to 283 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 3: ten minutes a day when I can't be doing anything else. 284 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 3: So you know, I will do it when when I'm 285 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 3: sitting on a flight waiting for it to take off, 286 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 3: or you know, i'll be on it when I am. 287 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 3: I actually end up doing it quite a bit, and 288 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 3: you know, in like a left or an uber a taxi, 289 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 3: and you know, otherwise I'll just I'll use it as 290 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 3: a small reward for making progress on the things that 291 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 3: I think are important. 292 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 2: I like that, so it's a reward. 293 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: And then you said that you set the clock, because 294 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: where I can imagine people coming undone is that they 295 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 1: go great. 296 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 2: Adams told me to reward myself with Facebook. 297 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: I'm going to pop on and then two hours later, 298 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: hang on what task was I working on? 299 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 3: Like? 300 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 2: How does that work? 301 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: Like? 302 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 2: Are you setting a really noisy stopwatch? Do you like? No, 303 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 2: how does that work? No? 304 00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 3: I just have a time in mind, so you know, 305 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 3: it's if it's seven fifty six, I'll say, all right, 306 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 3: I've got four minutes, and then at eight o'clock I'm 307 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 3: gonna get back to work. And if I fall short 308 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 3: on that, I'm disappointing myself and I start feeling guilty 309 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 3: and that's not pleasant. So next time, I'm like, I 310 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 3: don't want to feel that way again. Let me let 311 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 3: me just stay on task. 312 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I will also say, though, I feel like, 313 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 4: if you know, if if the urge to spend hours 314 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 4: scrolling through Facebook is dragging you away from your work, 315 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 4: then your work isn't motivating enough. 316 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 2: You know. 317 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 3: I feel like I actually feel the opposite of impulse. 318 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 3: If I'm if I'm scrolling through Facebook, I'm like, ah, 319 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 3: but I have this really exciting work to do. I 320 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 3: want to get back to that. And you know, I 321 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 3: obviously don't think it's practical for every single moment of 322 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 3: every single day to be that intrinsically motivating. But I 323 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 3: think to you know, to have an enjoyable and meaningful 324 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 3: work life, it's it's probably worth asking, you know that 325 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 3: that desire you feel to engage with whatever you're guilty 326 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 3: distraction is, how could you actually design your work so 327 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 3: that it creates that? 328 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's interesting. 329 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: You bring up intrinsic motivation and I was quite intrigued 330 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 1: by I think it must be one of your latest 331 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: publications in the Academy of Management Journal, where you talk 332 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: about when people work on a task that is intrinsically 333 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 1: and deeply motivating, performance on the extrinsically motivating task falls 334 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: and Aloran, can you talk a bit more about what 335 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: you found there? And I'm personally curious how have you 336 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: applied that to your own life because it was such 337 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: a curious research. 338 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 3: So, Amantha, you've really done your homework here, because this 339 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 3: was just accepted for publication in the last few weeks, 340 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 3: so it's i'd say it's hard off the presses, but 341 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 3: it's not even on the presses, it's impressed. So this 342 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 3: is a series of studies the Gisian lead, and we 343 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 3: started off with this idea that it's assumed to be 344 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 3: a good thing to have intrinsic motivation, but we all 345 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 3: have a range of projects and tasks that make up 346 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 3: our jobs, and nobody's really ever thought about or studied 347 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 3: the spillover effects. And we wondered, if there's a dark 348 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 3: side of working on an intrinsically motivating task, that it 349 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:16,239 Speaker 3: could make your boring tasks even more dull in you know, 350 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 3: in juxtaposition, and that's basically what we found. So in 351 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,919 Speaker 3: one of the studies, GA gathered data from a Korean 352 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 3: company and it turned out that the the more you 353 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 3: have one task in your portfolio of five or six 354 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 3: that's off the charts and intrinsic motivation, the more your 355 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:37,959 Speaker 3: performance suffers on your less interesting tasks. And then we 356 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:41,200 Speaker 3: designed an experiment which was really fun. We had people 357 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 3: search for YouTube videos as the first task, and so 358 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 3: the interesting version was to find the most fascinating videos 359 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 3: on YouTube and then write about what made them so interesting. 360 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:54,399 Speaker 3: There was there was kind of a medium interest condition 361 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,640 Speaker 3: where you had to search for life hack videos and 362 00:17:57,720 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 3: you know, and just summarize what you know, what what 363 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 3: the practical insights were there. And then in the boring condition, 364 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:08,159 Speaker 3: we had people watch videos of paint dry, so you 365 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 3: actually had to sit there and watch paint drying, and 366 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 3: we had people we had people describe them so that 367 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 3: we could check to make sure they were actually watching them. 368 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:18,679 Speaker 3: And so then you've just done an interesting or boring 369 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,199 Speaker 3: task or one somewhere in between. And then in a 370 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:23,360 Speaker 3: second task, we had you either play a really fun 371 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 3: computer game or copy numbers from a phone book. And 372 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 3: it turned out that people who had watched the fascinating 373 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,959 Speaker 3: YouTube videos actually made more mistakes and performed worse on 374 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 3: the copying task. 375 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 1: It's so interesting, Like what I was really curious about 376 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: because I was reading that research and reflecting on how 377 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: would I apply that in my own life? 378 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 2: And I felt quite sort of challenged to go, well, 379 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:49,640 Speaker 2: how do I do that? 380 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: And I was curious, like I would imagine that when 381 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,199 Speaker 1: you find these things in your research studies, you reflect 382 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: on your own life and think about how can you 383 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: integrate that. So I'm curious if you found a way 384 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: to integrate this into your own life, and if so, 385 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 1: what is that? 386 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:05,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, I have. Actually I think about it a little 387 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 3: bit like athletes who taper before a big competition. So 388 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 3: you know, if you're a runner or a swimmer or 389 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 3: a weightlifter, you're not supposed to do a max like 390 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,920 Speaker 3: a max intensity workout in the few days before your 391 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 3: big competition. So you know, runners, if they're training for 392 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:24,880 Speaker 3: a marathon and the you know, in the few days before, 393 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 3: they won't do a really long run, or same for 394 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 3: a swimmer or a weightlifter won't lift quite as heavy, 395 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 3: and the idea is that they're they're kind of tapering 396 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 3: down to have maximum strength. I think that there's I 397 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 3: don't know if the analogy holds perfectly, but I've started 398 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 3: to think about the sequencing of tasks in my days 399 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 3: as involving some tapering. So I used to think that 400 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 3: I should put interesting tasks and boring tasks back to back, 401 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 3: and that as I'm working on something that I find 402 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 3: just just endlessly intriguing, right after that, I should do 403 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:58,439 Speaker 3: my most dull task of the day, because then I'll 404 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 3: have some energy to carry over, and when our data 405 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 3: show is that's false. Instead of energy carrying over, there's 406 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 3: just this awful contrast where you're like, wow, this was 407 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 3: horrible before and now it's going to crush my soul. 408 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 3: How can I possibly do this? I? How do I 409 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 3: just spend more time working on this fun task instead? 410 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,159 Speaker 3: And what's interesting is that if this is all assuming 411 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 3: that you care about your performance in the boring task, 412 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 3: right that it you know, it's it's it may be dull, 413 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 3: but it's important or it matters in some way. If 414 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 3: you don't want your performance to suffer in that task, 415 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 3: then what you want to do is sandwich a medium 416 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 3: task in between, and so you taper down from interesting 417 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 3: to moderately interesting to boring. And if you work on 418 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,679 Speaker 3: a moderately interesting task that's kind of okay before the 419 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 3: boring task, it's not so different to create that contrast, 420 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,879 Speaker 3: and so the boring task doesn't suffer. Instead, you actually 421 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 3: do have a little bit in an energy that seems 422 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 3: to carry over and it boosts your performance on the 423 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,640 Speaker 3: boring task. And so now I think about these these 424 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 3: kind of little trios of tasks where I start out, 425 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,199 Speaker 3: I go interesting, you know, okay, boring and then I 426 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 3: go back to the interesting task. And what I love 427 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 3: about that is that helps power me through the boring 428 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 3: task because I've got something really exciting to look forward 429 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 3: to when I finish. 430 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 2: That's really cool. I love that idea of tapering. 431 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: I feel like I can definitely definitely apply that in 432 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: my own life. That's very cool. One thing I was 433 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: very curious about is that something you're very well known 434 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 1: for is being such a generous giver, and so much 435 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 1: of your research has focused on essentially the power of giving. 436 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: And on the other hand, I read so much in 437 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 1: the productivity space about the importance of saying no and 438 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: the power of saying no, and I was curious. 439 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 2: How do you balance that? 440 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: Because I can't even begin to imagine how many people 441 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,919 Speaker 1: are requesting your time, and I know that you are 442 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,399 Speaker 1: very much a yes person, and how do you balance that? 443 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 1: How do you know when to say yes versus saying no? 444 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 4: Oh? 445 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 3: I don't know. I feel like I'm struggling through this 446 00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 3: the same way that everyone else is. I'll tell you 447 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 3: what has been most helpful to me, though. I think 448 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 3: you know. I used to try to say yes to 449 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 3: everyone and to everything, and I just found that that 450 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 3: was impossible, as you know, as I got busier, as 451 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,640 Speaker 3: my profile you know, got I guess got raised outside 452 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 3: the Ivory Tower. I just didn't have enough hours in 453 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 3: the day to field all the requests that were coming in, 454 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 3: and so I ended up coming out with a bunch 455 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 3: of heuristics that more or less mirrored what I've studied 456 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 3: when I've when I've looked at the differences between you know, 457 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:33,679 Speaker 3: people who are what I've called successful givers who are 458 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 3: productively generous, and failed givers who are too selfless and 459 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 3: end up burning out or getting burned by the takers 460 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 3: who have they have the misfortune of dealing with. There 461 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 3: are a few kinds of choices that really matter. The 462 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 3: first one is to be thoughtful about who you help. 463 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,120 Speaker 3: And so for me, that's That's meant that I have 464 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 3: a hierarchy of people that I'm trying to support, and 465 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 3: it's family first, students second, colleagues third, everyone else fourth. 466 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 3: And at some point I realized that friends were not 467 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:05,919 Speaker 3: in that list, and I felt really bad about it. 468 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 3: But then I realized, you know what, I actually my 469 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 3: goal in a friendship is not to be you know, 470 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 3: helping the person. It's to be you know, to be 471 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 3: a friend, and that may involve lots of different things, 472 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 3: and you know, I'll fit them in wherever, but uh, 473 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,679 Speaker 3: the other the other categories. It was it was important 474 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 3: for me to be clear because when a request comes in, 475 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 3: I know that I'm not going to be equally generous 476 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,159 Speaker 3: to everyone. And so I had to realize, you know what, 477 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 3: I'm okay with the fact that my colleagues may well 478 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 3: think that I'm less generous than my students do, because 479 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 3: I just did not become a professor to try to 480 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 3: inspire other professors, right. I became a professor because I 481 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 3: wanted to have an impact on students the same way 482 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 3: that you know that I was really influenced by, you know, 483 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 3: by the the great teachers that I'd had, and I 484 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,399 Speaker 3: wanted to try to pay that forward. And so, you know, 485 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 3: when when a request comes in, I just kind of 486 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 3: go through that list, and it depends on how much 487 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 3: I have in the day. And it was so important 488 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 3: to put family first there because you know, it's easy 489 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 3: to say, well, you know, there's you know, there are 490 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,160 Speaker 3: lots of requests that come in workwise that are urgent, 491 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 3: and you know, you also are able to gain status 492 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 3: and build connections by helping people. And you know that 493 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 3: some of the family stuff is sometimes less exciting if 494 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 3: you're changing diapers, for example. But you know, when I 495 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,160 Speaker 3: took a step back and I thought about my values, 496 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 3: I knew that it was most important to me to 497 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,119 Speaker 3: be you know, to be showing up for my family 498 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 3: first and foremost, so that I found really helpful. And 499 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 3: then the other choices are about how you help and 500 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,639 Speaker 3: when you help. And you know that basically breaks down 501 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 3: to saying, look, I want to help when I can 502 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 3: add unique value and when it does not detract from 503 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 3: my energy or my ability to get my own work done. 504 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 3: And so what I tried to do was break down 505 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 3: all the different ways that I was I was trying 506 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 3: to say yes to people and figure out which ones 507 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 3: I enjoyed and excelled at. And you know, if people 508 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 3: are asking for help and domain where I didn't feel 509 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,719 Speaker 3: like I had a unique contribution to make or it 510 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,880 Speaker 3: was exhausting me, I knew that over time that meant 511 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,919 Speaker 3: I was going to have less impact. And so for me, 512 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 3: that's been kind of zooming in on two things. One 513 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,119 Speaker 3: is knowledge sharing. There's there's almost nothing that bretens my 514 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 3: inbox more than somebody reaching out and saying, yeah, I 515 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 3: had this question about, you know, something related to work psychology, 516 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 3: like has anybody ever studied fill in the blank? And 517 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 3: I'm like, yes, there's a chance to take all that 518 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 3: esoteric information that I'm collecting from academic journals and share 519 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 3: it with somebody who might be curious about it or 520 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:36,160 Speaker 3: who can apply it in some way, And so that 521 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 3: that's always a treat, and I feel like there aren't 522 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,880 Speaker 3: that many people who you know, kind of who where 523 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 3: that's the way that they help. And then the other 524 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 3: is I really love making introductions, provided that they're mutually beneficial. 525 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:50,919 Speaker 3: And so you know, I feel like I by virtue 526 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:52,640 Speaker 3: of the kind of work that I do, I get 527 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 3: to interact with lots of different industries and kinds of people, 528 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 3: and it's just really fun to connect the dots between 529 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 3: two people who could help each other and or who 530 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 3: could create something really meaningful together. And so I've tried 531 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 3: to focus on those requests. And that means that when 532 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 3: somebody reaches out and it's not in one of those buckets, 533 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,199 Speaker 3: I'll let them know that, you know, their request is 534 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:13,919 Speaker 3: not in my wheelhouse. But if I could be helpful 535 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 3: by sharing knowledge or by making an introduction, then you know, 536 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 3: I'd be happy to do that. 537 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 1: And on that I'm very encouraged to hear that you 538 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 1: do indeed say no? And how like, how do you 539 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 1: say no politely? Do you do you have like a 540 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 1: go to no strategy? 541 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 3: I have a few of them. Let's let's try them out. 542 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,160 Speaker 3: Make a request, So. 543 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,200 Speaker 2: Adam, I'm gonna be in the US in a couple 544 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 2: of months time. Can I stay with you for a week? 545 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 3: No? No? There are a couple different ways would answer that. 546 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,959 Speaker 3: So the first one is, you know, Amantha would love 547 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 3: to see you when you're in the US. I try 548 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 3: not to impose people on my family life, and in particular, 549 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 3: my wife is segmentor and an introvert, and she really 550 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 3: it's important for her to have boundaries and she doesn't 551 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 3: like the blurring between work and home. And so you know, 552 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 3: I learned a long time ago that it wasn't fair 553 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,920 Speaker 3: to her to just invite people that are total strangers 554 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,159 Speaker 3: to her into our home. So as much as I 555 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 3: would love to have you, I can recommend some great hotels. 556 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,400 Speaker 2: That's great. So you're giving a very clear and detailed 557 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 2: rationale behind the no. 558 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,199 Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, look, I don't I don't feel like 559 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,919 Speaker 3: I actually have an obligation to do that. If somebody 560 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 3: has the gall to ask something that's unreasonable, then I 561 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,159 Speaker 3: can be perfectly unreasonable back. But I still prefer to 562 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 3: err on the side of politeness. You know another thing 563 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 3: I might say, though, which is, you know, it's not 564 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 3: that often that somebody would just ask out of the blue, 565 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,639 Speaker 3: can you stay with me? But I do get a 566 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 3: lot of you know, well, hey, I'm going to be 567 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:57,159 Speaker 3: coming through Philly, can we meet up? And you know, 568 00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 3: my standard answer to that is, actually, when I'm in Philly, 569 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,400 Speaker 3: my time belongs to my family and my students, and 570 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 3: you know those those are my two priorities. And so 571 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 3: you know, the only way is that the only way 572 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,679 Speaker 3: that I can really protect my time and show up 573 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 3: for the people that I've made a commitment to supporting 574 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:17,919 Speaker 3: is to set that boundary. And I really hope you 575 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 3: understand nice. 576 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 2: That sounds very polite and reasonable. 577 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,200 Speaker 3: I like that right. 578 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:27,880 Speaker 1: Now, before we move on to rapid fire questions, there 579 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,639 Speaker 1: was one other thing that I wanted to ask you about, 580 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:33,439 Speaker 1: and I'm not sure if this is still true but 581 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,679 Speaker 1: I'd read that there's a certain way that you start 582 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 1: every week where you think about what you want to 583 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: accomplish and how you want to help, and that. 584 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 2: Kind of becomes your compass for the week. 585 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: Is that still something that you do and if so, 586 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: could you maybe elaborate on what that looks like? 587 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 3: Sure? So I started doing this when I realized that 588 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 3: I'm I guess, you know, I think about personality in 589 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 3: terms of we all have lots of traits, but are 590 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 3: the traits we expressed in any given moment. I think 591 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 3: that's often governed by our dominant trade, the trade we're 592 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 3: most extreme on, and my dominant trade is probably being 593 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 3: goal oriented. If you give me a goal, I just 594 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 3: get tunnel vision and the only thing I can see 595 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 3: or think of is that goal. And so I wanted 596 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 3: to I wanted to improve my peripheral vision. I wanted 597 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 3: to make sure that I didn't lose sight of my priorities. 598 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 3: And I saw that going both ways. Sometimes, you know, 599 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 3: I'd get totally focused on a work goal, and you know, 600 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 3: I'd miss out on some ways that I really wanted 601 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 3: to be responsive to other people. And then on the 602 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 3: flip side, right, I get totally immersed in helping somebody, 603 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 3: and you know, a work task would fall off my plate. 604 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 3: And so I just want to make sure that those 605 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 3: those two things, you know, achieving my own goals and 606 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 3: then helping other people, that they stayed on my radar. 607 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 3: And so what I what I like to do is 608 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 3: I like to start a week by asking myself, what 609 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 3: are three things I want to accomplish and what are 610 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 3: three people that I want to help or three ways 611 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 3: I want to be helpful? And then you know, I 612 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 3: just kind of do an informal check in on a 613 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 3: daily basis to ask am I making progress toward those goals? 614 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 3: And I think it keeps me from getting stuck in 615 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 3: the weeds of the one goal that's happening to loom 616 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 3: large at the moment, and it forces me to make 617 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 3: sure that I've got my priorities in order. 618 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 2: Hmmm, I like that. 619 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: Can you give me an example of maybe what one 620 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: thing that you're trying to accomplish this week has been 621 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:30,479 Speaker 1: and one way that you are trying to help a 622 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: person or something this week? 623 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 2: To give an example. 624 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 3: Sure, So this week my big work goal was finishing 625 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 3: up a draft of an audiobook that I'm releasing later 626 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 3: this summer, which is called Power Moves. It's been a 627 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 3: really interesting project. It's a collaboration with Audible, where they said, look, 628 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 3: we know you're going to be going to the World 629 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 3: Economic Forum in Davos in January, and we're wondering if 630 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 3: you want to do an audiobook around a theme about 631 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 3: the lessons and you can interview a bunch of people 632 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 3: and add in your own analysis. And so I ended 633 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 3: up doing about two dozen interviews and Davos with all 634 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 3: sorts of interesting leaders and thinkers, and it was around 635 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 3: the theme of power, asking how it's changing and how 636 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 3: we can use it for good, and so you know, 637 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 3: I've been working on that since then, and my goal 638 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 3: for this week was to finish a complete draft so 639 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 3: we're ready to record soon. And then in terms of 640 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 3: being helpful on a professional front, my big goal for 641 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 3: the week was to help one of our doctoral students 642 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 3: get a paper out for publication. And so I read it, 643 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 3: I gave comments. Then we strategized about which journals to 644 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 3: submit it to and how a best frame it to 645 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 3: make a contribution. And you know, I had kind of 646 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 3: I had both of those actually on a to do list, 647 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 3: and I was just checking out by myself over the 648 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 3: last couple of days. 649 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 2: Awesome, I love it. Love those examples. 650 00:31:55,240 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 1: Now onto the sort of the rapid fire finish for 651 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 1: for the show. So a large part of staying focused 652 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 1: fit is tuning into useful and insightful stimulus and tuning. 653 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 2: Out the rest because there's so much of that. 654 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 1: And so to finish off, I've got a few quick 655 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 1: questions for you on this topic. To start with, what 656 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,959 Speaker 1: podcasts are you currently listening to and loving? 657 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 3: Oh? I love Invisibilia on NPR. I think it's a 658 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 3: show about all the hidden forces that cheap behavior, and 659 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 3: I just think it's mind bending, is a good way 660 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 3: to describe it. My favorite episodes were How to Become 661 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 3: Batman and Flip the Script and then I'm also a 662 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 3: big fan of Revisionist History with Malcolm Gladwell. 663 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 2: Oh that's so good, isn't it? 664 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 3: Yes? 665 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 2: Awesome? 666 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 1: What is it a newsletter that you subscribe to and 667 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 1: actually look forward to reading? Oh? 668 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 3: I have a lot of favorite newsletters, but one of 669 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 3: the ones that I get the most out of is 670 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 3: Dan Pink's Every Other Week. 671 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 2: I love that one too. That's such a good one. Yes, Now, 672 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 2: what is a great book that you've read recently. 673 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 3: I actually just read two outstanding books that were both 674 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 3: released in the fall. One was Joyful by Ingrid fetel 675 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 3: Lee and the other was Rule Makers rule Breakers by 676 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 3: Michelle gelfand fantastic. 677 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 2: I'm going to check those ones out. 678 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: And finally, what's your favorite research study into productivity and 679 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: what did it reveal? 680 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 4: Oh? 681 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 3: There are so many? Do I really have to choose one? 682 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 2: You do? 683 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 3: You do? 684 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 1: Yes? 685 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:35,959 Speaker 3: Oh? That is cruel and unusual punishment. I don't know 686 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 3: that I can choose a favorite, but I'll tell you. Actually, 687 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 3: the most interesting one that I read this week, when 688 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 3: I was procrastinating on some writing, I read this study 689 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 3: out of Ohio State University, which really bothered me because 690 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 3: the arrival of my Michigan Wolverines, but I'll try to 691 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 3: get over that. And it was actually a series of 692 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 3: I think eight studies which showed but when you have 693 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 3: a meeting coming up in an hour or two, you 694 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,480 Speaker 3: use the time in between much less productively. And so 695 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 3: in one of their studies, when people knew they had 696 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,280 Speaker 3: a meeting on their calendar, they use the time between 697 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 3: now and then to get twenty two percent less work 698 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 3: done than they would have if they had taken that 699 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,360 Speaker 3: off their calendar. Wow, and you know that it's obviously 700 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,359 Speaker 3: a mistake, right, we waste a lot of time. Yeah, 701 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,359 Speaker 3: just saying well, there's no point in starting that because 702 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 3: I have a meeting in six hours. How could I 703 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 3: ever make any progress between now and then? And I 704 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 3: think you know, one takeaway from me on that is 705 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 3: it's reinforcement for something I've done for a long time, 706 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,959 Speaker 3: which is stacking meetings more or less back to back 707 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,319 Speaker 3: on a meeting day, so you know, on a teaching day, 708 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,240 Speaker 3: what I'll do is I'll hold all my office hours 709 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 3: back to back. And I learned that I needed a 710 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 3: little buffer so that, you know, maybe five minutes between 711 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 3: each meeting just to catch up on email or in 712 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 3: case a meeting rent long helped. But then I'd have 713 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 3: another day with no meetings at all, where I could 714 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 3: really focus and be productive. And this research just kind 715 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 3: of reinforced that form me. 716 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 2: I love that. 717 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,880 Speaker 1: That's fascinating. Oh well, thank you so much for your time, Adam. 718 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 1: I was really looking forward to speaking to you, and 719 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 1: you did not disappoint. Now, for those who want to 720 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 1: get more Adam Grant into their lives, how can. 721 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:15,759 Speaker 2: We do that. 722 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 3: Well, I wouldn't wish that on anyone, but if that's 723 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 3: what you wanted. I've had a lot of fun doing 724 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 3: my work Life podcast with the Ted team, and we 725 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,799 Speaker 3: just finished season one and are just starting to think 726 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 3: about season two. And then I do a newsletter every 727 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 3: month called Granted, where I share new insights about work 728 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 3: in psychology and answer reader questions. 729 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 2: Fantastic and where can we sign up for that? 730 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 3: Oh, it's just an Adam grant Net. 731 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 1: Wonderful, wonderful, And I got to say, I'm loving your 732 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 1: work Life podcast and also your e newsletter is one 733 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:56,360 Speaker 1: of the ones that I look forward to. 734 00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,439 Speaker 2: So I I thank you for that. Yes, so, thank 735 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,360 Speaker 2: you so much, Adam. It's been an absolute pleasure. 736 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:04,840 Speaker 3: Pleasures a online thank you, Amantha. 737 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:07,920 Speaker 2: That is it for today's show. 738 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 1: If you enjoyed it, why not share it with someone 739 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 1: that you think would also benefit from my chat with Adam. 740 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:15,720 Speaker 2: Just click the little share icon. 741 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 1: Which is generally a box with an arrow poking out 742 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,800 Speaker 1: of it wherever you listen to this podcast, And if 743 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,279 Speaker 1: you are feeling like you have a spare five seconds today, 744 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 1: why not leave a review for How I Work Wherever 745 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 1: you listen to this podcast. So that did for today's show, 746 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 1: and I will see you next time.