Speaker 1: This episode was recorded on cameragle Land.
Speaker 2: Hi guys, and welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut.
Speaker 1: I'm Laura, I'm Brittany.
Speaker 2: Now today's episode, we are talking about something which I'll
Speaker 2: be honest, When originally brought the idea of doing an
Speaker 2: episode on this, I was like, I don't even know
Speaker 2: what that word means.
Speaker 3: You like, you're totally googled.
Speaker 1: I was like, that's such a good idea, but I
Speaker 1: don't know what that is. But the word is limerens.
Speaker 2: Now, you might have heard of it, you might not
Speaker 2: have heard of it, but I would dare bet that
Speaker 2: so many of us have experienced it. And it's kind
Speaker 2: of understanding the concept between that really infatuated love, that
Speaker 2: feeling of obsession around someone, but identifying the difference between
Speaker 2: what is a limerent state of love and what is
Speaker 2: actual love. Now we're going to be unpacking like how
Speaker 2: to define what the difference is and also what patterns
Speaker 2: might be in your relationships and how you're showing up
Speaker 2: on your relationships. And we have literally the most qualified
Speaker 2: expert that has ever been on the podcast in order
Speaker 2: to talk about it.
Speaker 1: We have Tias Gibson.
Speaker 2: She is a counselor, author, podcaster, and co founder of
Speaker 2: the Personal Development School. She has a PhD and over
Speaker 2: thirteen certifications immodalities ranging from cognitive behavior therapy to neuro
Speaker 2: linguistic programming. She's also an expert in attachment theory. And
Speaker 2: so today's buzzword of limerens, which we're going to be unpacking.
Speaker 2: There's a few other parts of this as well, but
Speaker 2: the parts of this and talking about limerens that we're
Speaker 2: going to be unpacking. If you've found yourself in those
Speaker 2: sort of patent relationships, or if you've found yourself in
Speaker 2: a very unfulfilling love cycle, I think that this is
Speaker 2: an episode you're going to get so much out of.
Speaker 3: Or maybe if you found yourself just super obsessed with someone,
Speaker 3: we're talking to you as well.
Speaker 1: Tias, Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me. I'm sure this
Speaker 4: will be a whole bunch of fun to be here today.
Speaker 1: Well, we start every episode the same way.
Speaker 2: I know that we just put you on the spot
Speaker 2: to try and think of what yours is, but actually unfiltered,
Speaker 2: your most embarrassing story, and you have one from right
Speaker 2: back in the trenches of memory from grade nine okay.
Speaker 4: So this is the first one that came to mind,
Speaker 4: and this is a true true story. So I was
Speaker 4: in ninth grade. I went on a first date. I
Speaker 4: had gone out earlier with friends and had been drinking
Speaker 4: and went to meet this guy that at the time
Speaker 4: I was like, okay, really interested in. I literally went
Speaker 4: to meet him on a first date and went to
Speaker 4: this movie theater and arcade afterwards. And I was in
Speaker 4: the movie theater and I like really had to pee,
Speaker 4: Like I really had to go to the bathroom. And
Speaker 4: I kept being like, Oh, it's fine, I'll just wait.
Speaker 4: I didn't want to be rude. I was doing other
Speaker 4: things before. I felt badly because I was already running
Speaker 4: late to get there, so I just kept waiting. Now,
Speaker 4: mind you, like I had never piped my pants in
Speaker 4: my whole life, so I just like that wasn't even
Speaker 4: a thought process or like that this would happen. And
Speaker 4: sure enough, we finished the movie and his parents were
Speaker 4: going to come pick us up, and he was like,
Speaker 4: there's a really bad snowstorm. They're running late. They have
Speaker 4: tickets to do a hockey game afterwards. We cannot be late.
Speaker 4: Like He's like, let's just play at the very front
Speaker 4: by the arcade, and his parents were kind of going
Speaker 4: to pick us up and drive us home. And I
Speaker 4: was kind of a wild kid when I was young,
Speaker 4: like doing all sorts of stuff all the time, and
Speaker 4: I just kept thinking like, Okay, I'll wait, I'll take
Speaker 4: it easy. And We're playing this basketball game in the arcade,
Speaker 4: and I kept like being like, oh my gosh, I
Speaker 4: really have to pee. But I had said that we're
Speaker 4: going to wait, so as soon as his parents we're
Speaker 4: going to arrive, we'll jump in to the car and go.
Speaker 4: And at one point I started laughing during the basketball
Speaker 4: game and I just peed and I like literally could
Speaker 4: stop peeing. Like I'm laughing during the game and peeing,
Speaker 4: and then I'm like I cannot believe this is happening.
Speaker 4: And you know, at the end of the game, there's
Speaker 4: there's just this little tiny puddle on the floor.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, yes, like a little bit.
Speaker 4: And I thought I would die of embarrassment. Like I
Speaker 4: thought I would die. But I was like, Okay, what
Speaker 4: do I do in this situation, Like the only opportunity
Speaker 4: I have is to own it, So I did. I
Speaker 4: was like he he like looked at me after the
Speaker 4: game He's like, what's wrong, and I'm sure it was
Speaker 4: white like a girls, and I was like, I was laughing,
Speaker 4: and I peed my pants and like fully fully my pants,
Speaker 4: and then he was so sweet about it. He went
Speaker 4: on to be my boyfriend of like a year after.
Speaker 3: There's actually so much wrong with this conversation.
Speaker 1: Firstly, the fact that the fact that his women, who.
Speaker 3: Were so trained to not disrupt a situation or not
Speaker 3: be put anyone out. The fact that you're like, I
Speaker 3: didn't want to be rude and go to the bathroom.
Speaker 2: Being inconvenience basically like if you need to come to toilet,
Speaker 2: it's not rude.
Speaker 1: But you're like, yeah, I didn't.
Speaker 4: I had so many, so many people pleasing her shoes
Speaker 4: as a ninth grader for a show. So that was
Speaker 4: like the manifestation of that definitely.
Speaker 3: God at that age too, like prime teenage years. You
Speaker 3: are so lucky it went that way and he became
Speaker 3: your boyfriend and not went to school and just like
Speaker 3: told he told everyone and everyone started bullying you, I.
Speaker 4: Know, and he didn't tell us Aul, which was good
Speaker 4: for him. He was a good guy for sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because your girlfriend can't of wet herself.
Speaker 3: Guys, let's start from the beginning, because, as Laura said,
Speaker 3: I think that the word limerence it is a buzzword
Speaker 3: right now.
Speaker 1: It is a word we're seeing everywhere.
Speaker 3: But I understand there'd be so many people that have
Speaker 3: never heard of it, whilsty'll know what it is when
Speaker 3: we explain it. So let's go back to the basics
Speaker 3: and give us an explanation of what limerence is.
Speaker 4: So ellimerence itself is basically addictive and obsessive infatuation. It
Speaker 4: was a term originally coined by a psychologist named Dorothy Tenoff,
Speaker 4: and she talked about how essentially there is a huge
Speaker 4: difference between just a crush and actual limerence. Limmerence is
Speaker 4: usually something where that tends to be in a one
Speaker 4: way dynamic. It usually doesn't last for very long, and
Speaker 4: there are different stages of limerens where if you look
Speaker 4: at like just healthy feelings, they're generally secure and balanced.
Speaker 4: Somebody is not going to people please their way into
Speaker 4: a relationship. They're going to have steady and supportive emotions.
Speaker 4: They're going to generally be able to communicate and share
Speaker 4: themselves naturally with somebody. But limerence is like obsessive intrusive thoughts.
Speaker 4: It is like checking somebody's social media NonStop all day
Speaker 4: every day. It tends to be full of U fourkies
Speaker 4: and then crushing lows when you don't get what you
Speaker 4: want or when the situation isn't going as you hoped
Speaker 4: or planned, or the person doesn't notice you. And really,
Speaker 4: when we're in limerens, we have this really idealized version
Speaker 4: of somebody and we filter out any red flags. And
Speaker 4: also the uncertainty tends to fuel the attraction when it
Speaker 4: comes to limmerens. Almost like there the more there is mystery,
Speaker 4: the more our mind fills in the blanks with all
Speaker 4: of these amazing scenarios or seeing the best in somebody
Speaker 4: all the time. And there's this huge fear of rejection
Speaker 4: and constant over analyzing when it comes to limerens, and
Speaker 4: usually it really robs a person's ability to be themselves
Speaker 4: around their object of Limerens as a whole.
Speaker 1: What trigger is it?
Speaker 4: So?
Speaker 2: I mean like for some people who might feel like
Speaker 2: they have go into the state of Limerens, and especially
Speaker 2: when it's like one side infatuation with someone, like what
Speaker 2: is it the triggers that type of infatuation verse just
Speaker 2: being like normally infatuated with a person who you've come
Speaker 2: in contact with and you think is amazing.
Speaker 4: It's such a great question. So generally it boils down
Speaker 4: to two major things. One is if somebody meets your
Speaker 4: deeply unmet needs. So what that looks like is like,
Speaker 4: let's say, for example, somebody grows up and they felt
Speaker 4: really unseen as a child, and so maybe their parents
Speaker 4: weren't available, weren't really present with them very much, and
Speaker 4: they were always aching to be seen because that's what
Speaker 4: children are wired for and that's what they're needing. And
Speaker 4: let's say that they grow up it never really had
Speaker 4: somebody be super present with them, and all of a sudden,
Speaker 4: as an adult, they meet somebody who's really present, really attuned,
Speaker 4: asks them deep questions, makes them feel like they're so
Speaker 4: interesting and unique and special, and really goes out of
Speaker 4: their way to connect with them. Well, that is going
Speaker 4: to make the brain light up, essentially, because somebody is
Speaker 4: meeting in that moment you're deeply unmet needs in that
Speaker 4: particular case. I actually had a story once where I
Speaker 4: was meeting with a client and this is back when
Speaker 4: I was running my practice, and she came in one
Speaker 4: day and we had been working for three sessions on
Speaker 4: her like basically doing premarital preparation to have the best
Speaker 4: relationship possible with her fiance, and she came in to
Speaker 4: be like, Oh, I'm just gonna work out my attachment
Speaker 4: wounds or different things. She came in three sessions later
Speaker 4: and she said, te use, I'm calling off my wedding.
Speaker 4: And I was like, wait, you're calling off your wedding?
Speaker 4: Why everything was going so well? And she said, I
Speaker 4: was in Starbucks at a coffee shop and I spilled
Speaker 4: my coffee everywhere and this man came and he stopped
Speaker 4: what he was doing. He helped me mop up the coffee.
Speaker 4: We sat down and spoke for a moment and she's like,
Speaker 4: I think it was love at first night. I think
Speaker 4: this is the love of my life. And to me,
Speaker 4: I was like, wait, I hear limerens here like this
Speaker 4: isn't you know because you don't know somebody in that
Speaker 4: instantaneous moment And I said, okay, Well, what was so
Speaker 4: special and unique about the interaction and what we found
Speaker 4: was exactly that he made her feel super scene, super important.
Speaker 4: He was really present with her, and when we looked
Speaker 4: at her history, she felt like nobody was really there
Speaker 4: like that growing up for her. And when we looked
Speaker 4: at her fiance, there's a lot of great qualities about him,
Speaker 4: but he also wasn't very present. And I said, look,
Speaker 4: let's just invest for the next six weeks in trying
Speaker 4: to get your fiance to be more present. Request that
Speaker 4: that's a need, have different strategies to connect that way.
Speaker 4: She did it within week number four or five. She
Speaker 4: was like, I can't believe I was thinking of calling
Speaker 4: off the web. So limbers a lot of the time, yeah,
Speaker 4: a lot of the time is needs. Now. The other
Speaker 4: pillar is traits. So if somebody has a trait that
Speaker 4: we feel is very separate from ourselves, if we think
Speaker 4: somebody is really assertive and we've always been boundaryless, if
Speaker 4: we think somebody's really smart and we struggled in school
Speaker 4: growing up, we'll often put that person on a huge pedestal,
Speaker 4: and then when they like us, we'll be like, oh
Speaker 4: my gosh, and so infatuated. And you actually see this
Speaker 4: really commonly with people who grew up feeling like the
Speaker 4: ugly duckling growing up. Maybe they had a funny haircut
Speaker 4: or braces or an awkward stage in high school will
Speaker 4: put so much emphasis on f all appearance. And I
Speaker 4: had a client once as well come in one day
Speaker 4: and he said that this woman who he felt was
Speaker 4: so attractive, she was very flirtatious with him and sort
Speaker 4: of touched his face, and he just went into full
Speaker 4: He was married with two kids and went into full Limerens. Like,
Speaker 4: just like, I think I should leave my wife all
Speaker 4: of these things because he had that trade of physical
Speaker 4: attractiveness on such a big patstal that it just derailed
Speaker 4: him completely.
Speaker 3: But I think also from what you're saying, it sounds like,
Speaker 3: and we talk about it all the time, once you
Speaker 3: get into a lot, like a really long term, stable
Speaker 3: and quote unquote boring, safe relationship, that you often don't
Speaker 3: feel that chemistry and connection. You don't feel seen, you
Speaker 3: don't feel the attention. So does that play into the
Speaker 3: confusion of limerens? Like can you think you're in Limerens
Speaker 3: but your brain hasn't actually gone into a state of Limerens?
Speaker 3: And is that just because you've had the attention from
Speaker 3: a third party or an outside source.
Speaker 4: This is such a great topic. So here limerens outside
Speaker 4: of like sex addiction and narcissism, the main reason people
Speaker 4: cheat it is because of librence. And what I mean
Speaker 4: by that is this is what I would see time
Speaker 4: and time again, people would cheat because to exactly your point,
Speaker 4: they were in a relationship for a long time. It
Speaker 4: was always the same kind of storyline. They felt really connected,
Speaker 4: got married, settled down, had kids, and there was always
Speaker 4: a significant theme where they just didn't prioritize the relationship.
Speaker 4: They didn't prioritize still dating, still getting to know each other,
Speaker 4: and eventually they drifted apart, and then somebody started aching
Speaker 4: for something, aching usually for things like to feel seen
Speaker 4: or validated, or wanted or important, or have novelty or
Speaker 4: exploration or fun in the relationship. And these things got
Speaker 4: ignored and outsourced because we have young kids, were too busy,
Speaker 4: we're stressful. All of the rationalizations and justifications for this,
Speaker 4: and then somebody comes along and guess what they represent
Speaker 4: those deeply unmet needs that this person's yearning for. And
Speaker 4: our subconscious mind is literally a needs meeting machine. It's
Speaker 4: wired to get your needs met. That's how we evolved
Speaker 4: for so long as a species, So it is designed
Speaker 4: to get your needs met. And what happens is then
Speaker 4: people start justifying. They say, oh, well, my wife doesn't
Speaker 4: really care about this anyways, Oh well, my husband hasn't
Speaker 4: been present or paying attention to me for years, and
Speaker 4: start justifying these feelings, and then these feelings feel like
Speaker 4: an addiction. And as soon as you're in this like
Speaker 4: really tremendous state of euphoria, it's almost like you're not
Speaker 4: of sober mind and neurochemically are not Limbrence is characterized
Speaker 4: by like extremely elevated phenol ethylalamine, which is its attraction
Speaker 4: neurochemical oxytosein the bonding neurochemical and people tend to bond
Speaker 4: more with their objects of limerens in the fantasy world,
Speaker 4: but in reality.
Speaker 2: When you say that, you mean as in like the
Speaker 2: perception of what they've made about this person and the
Speaker 2: person that they've kind of imagined them to be, than
Speaker 2: who they actually are exactly.
Speaker 4: And it's interesting because people who are the object of limerens,
Speaker 4: they'll often say, like, this person's obsessed with me. They
Speaker 4: don't even know me. This person likes me so much
Speaker 4: they think that they know all these things about me,
Speaker 4: and they really don't. And it's because usually what we're
Speaker 4: doing is we're outsourcing our mind, if it can't get
Speaker 4: its needs met in the present, gets its needs met
Speaker 4: through fantasies of the future or memories of the past.
Speaker 4: And you'll see this like if you've ever seen somebody,
Speaker 4: I remember this client I had one since she this
Speaker 4: is somewhat related, but she said that she had a
Speaker 4: boss and she grew up like never being able to
Speaker 4: have a voice. She had four older brothers. She had
Speaker 4: this boss who made her feel really small. She would
Speaker 4: come into client sessions with me and she would tell
Speaker 4: me these elaborate stories. I remember she would stand up,
Speaker 4: you know, instead of sitting on the couch. She would
Speaker 4: stand up and she would tell me these really elaborate
Speaker 4: stories of I'm going to tell my boss this, and
Speaker 4: then I'm going to say this, and I'm going to
Speaker 4: tell her what I really feel. And she would say
Speaker 4: all these things, and it was I could tell that
Speaker 4: in that moment that was her way of taking her
Speaker 4: power back. Is fantasizing about what she was gonna say
Speaker 4: and how she was going to show up. And we
Speaker 4: do this in all sorts of forms, and limerence is
Speaker 4: one of them. So if we can't get our needs met,
Speaker 4: we'll often also project this whole fantasy of how this
Speaker 4: person would show up and all the places we'll travel
Speaker 4: and all the things we would do. And really it's
Speaker 4: the mind starving for needs that we haven't consciously identified
Speaker 4: and actually been able to action out. And that's where
Speaker 4: it plays a crucial role, a huge role in terms
Speaker 4: of cheating and relationships, and so much of the work
Speaker 4: that I used to do with people around limerens, if
Speaker 4: they were having limreents outside of their marriage, would be Okay,
Speaker 4: let's identify the needs that you're projecting in this fantasy realm.
Speaker 4: Let's start actually communicating about them and having strategies to
Speaker 4: meet them in your marriage, and literally the limerens would
Speaker 4: go away and the relationship would dramatically improve.
Speaker 3: Instead, we talk all the time about the fact that
Speaker 3: we fell in love with someone's potential, and I think
Speaker 3: that that leans into what you're saying. It's like we
Speaker 3: romanticize and fantasize about what could have been. And I've
Speaker 3: never heard it said in a way that you just
Speaker 3: said it, because I've never thought about it in that way.
Speaker 3: I know most of the time, limerence is something that
Speaker 3: is not reciprocated. It's like an unrequired love. But can
Speaker 3: you be in a state of limerens in a relationship
Speaker 3: as well.
Speaker 4: Yes, so you definitely can, but limberent relationships don't tend
Speaker 4: to last very long. And the reason being is that
Speaker 4: when you have this addiction and you have somebody on
Speaker 4: such a high pedestal. Whenever somebody's on a pedestal, you're
Speaker 4: like in the pit next to them, And when we
Speaker 4: have somebody on this huge pedestal, we end up engaging
Speaker 4: in behaviors that are really maladaptive for relationships. So you
Speaker 4: people please because you're so scared of losing the person.
Speaker 4: You don't communicate your authentic needs in a relationship because
Speaker 4: you're scared that, oh what if I'm too much or
Speaker 4: what if they don't like who I am? And so
Speaker 4: we end up connecting inauthentically and we end up building
Speaker 4: a relationship based on that. And with that obsessive infatuation
Speaker 4: also comes this addiction to that person's approval, and so
Speaker 4: you build a relationship from the very ground app based
Speaker 4: on things that are not actually healthy, that are not
Speaker 4: actually going to increase the likelihood of that relationship lasting.
Speaker 4: And so generally you'll see even if we get into
Speaker 4: some sort of relationship with the object of limerens unless
Speaker 4: we do the inner psychological work to be like, hold
Speaker 4: on a second here, let me take on some of
Speaker 4: the traits that I think there are so special. Let
Speaker 4: me see how I have some of those traits as well.
Speaker 4: One exercise that would often give people when they're in
Speaker 4: limerens is okay, well, if it's needs based, let's start
Speaker 4: to meet our own needs. Let's learn how to self
Speaker 4: footh and self regulate by being like, if this person
Speaker 4: makes me feel seen, maybe I start meditating, maybe I
Speaker 4: start journaling. I actually start to see myself and understand
Speaker 4: myself better. And what you'll see is it's correlated with
Speaker 4: decrease of limerens. And now the relationship can last without
Speaker 4: all these extreme expectations. And if it's traits based, we
Speaker 4: get a person to see how they also have those traits. So,
Speaker 4: for example, if somebody is like, oh my gosh, my
Speaker 4: partner is just the smartest person. They're so intelligent, Oh
Speaker 4: my goodness, And that person maybe grew up feeling not
Speaker 4: smart in school, We're like, okay, well, where is your
Speaker 4: area of genius. Maybe you're like a creative genius. Maybe
Speaker 4: you're amazing with people and that's your area of intelligence,
Speaker 4: but you're judging it by like, oh, they're really intellectual
Speaker 4: in this capacity. So when we start owning those traits
Speaker 4: or meeting those needs, then we can get out of
Speaker 4: that obsessive, addictive infatuation and it becomes really this invitation
Speaker 4: to self growth. It's like, Okay, cool, here's why I'm
Speaker 4: in Limerens. Here's what it's actually telling me. Let me
Speaker 4: use it for something good that will grow me. And
Speaker 4: that's how we can get on track and actually make
Speaker 4: those relationships work. If you're not doing that work, statistically,
Speaker 4: there's literally very little chance of that relationship everlasting or
Speaker 4: making it beyond just that dating stage of relationships.
Speaker 1: Tias.
Speaker 2: You mentioned early on that there's stages of Limerens. Can
Speaker 2: you talk us through what those three stages look like?
Speaker 4: Yes. So the first stage is really that stage of infatuation.
Speaker 4: It's that stage where we meet somebody who are like,
Speaker 4: oh my goodness, we're overwhelmed. We have all of the
Speaker 4: rumination and often a lot of that bonding and connecting
Speaker 4: in the fantasy realm with that person, and so that's
Speaker 4: a huge first piece, and then eventually that moves into
Speaker 4: what we think of as emotional addiction. An emotional addiction
Speaker 4: is that you then have your entire emotional state or
Speaker 4: so much of it throughout the day or week based
Speaker 4: on that relationship and your interactions with that person. And
Speaker 4: you'll usually see things like, in that emotional addiction stage,
Speaker 4: somebody is maybe driving to work in the morning. They're
Speaker 4: rich in the fantasy world with what's going to happen
Speaker 4: with that person. They're spending so much time not even
Speaker 4: present in their own life because they're so preoccupied with
Speaker 4: the fantasy of this individual. And so there's this emotional addiction,
Speaker 4: and then usually what ends up happening is that emotional
Speaker 4: addiction component is going to naturally have very high highs
Speaker 4: and very low lows, and a lot of times, you know,
Speaker 4: you see people that have a huge infatuation or an
Speaker 4: ellimerens with their coworker. They get to work, they clam
Speaker 4: up around their coworker because they're so terrified of saying
Speaker 4: the wrong thing, and they have them on such a
Speaker 4: big pedestal, and then all of a sudden they're like,
Speaker 4: oh my gosh, I didn't say the right thing, and
Speaker 4: then they feel terrible about themselves. Oh my gosh, they're
Speaker 4: never going to like me? Why did I not speak
Speaker 4: in front of them? Why was I you know, not
Speaker 4: normal in front of them? And so you just have
Speaker 4: this roller coaster that's waiting to happen, and then eventually
Speaker 4: you have this dissipation, really, this deterioration of limerens. And
Speaker 4: usually it's not because that person's limbrence goes away. For
Speaker 4: the individual, it's because they're met with such consistent and
Speaker 4: unfortunate rejection from that person, because again you're just not
Speaker 4: connecting on authentic terms, or you're not able to even
Speaker 4: be your normal self around somebody, and so that usually
Speaker 4: leads to big feelings of dejection, sometimes even depressive episodes
Speaker 4: or a lot of sadness and defeatedness. And then eventually
Speaker 4: that person may move on, and if they don't course correct,
Speaker 4: usually they move on by eventually falling into some sort
Speaker 4: of limbrent dynamic with another person who still represents those
Speaker 4: deep needs that they're hungering for.
Speaker 3: It's interesting how much of our emotional stability we put
Speaker 3: on our romantic partner. I know you just said it
Speaker 3: could be a work colleague as well, but I was
Speaker 3: just thinking so much of your week and how great
Speaker 3: you feel, and how healthy you feel and how productive
Speaker 3: you feel is a complete direct correlation to your romantic
Speaker 3: partner and what they bring into a relationship and how
Speaker 3: they're making you feel. The fact that sometimes we put
Speaker 3: so much pressure on it, we're like, oh, if they
Speaker 3: don't write back, it's ruined my day. All I've thought
Speaker 3: about that whole day. And I'm assuming that probably doesn't
Speaker 3: happen in a very healthy, stable relationship, and maybe that
Speaker 3: could be an early sign of limerins.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, So what's really interesting is there's six stages of relationships.
Speaker 4: So we have our dating stage right the vetting stage.
Speaker 4: It usually lasts like three, four or five months getting
Speaker 4: to know somebody. Once we make a commitment, we move
Speaker 4: into the honeymoon stage. And this is like rose colored glasses,
Speaker 4: all these different things. Every relationship, even with very secure people,
Speaker 4: goes through some form of power struggle stage. And in
Speaker 4: the power struggle stage, we're actually supposed to really communicate
Speaker 4: and let somebody in and share our needs and our
Speaker 4: fears and our feelings. And if both parties really take
Speaker 4: each other into consideration, like, oh, you're sensitive to criticism,
Speaker 4: let me be more mindful of how I communicate. Oh,
Speaker 4: you really need consistency or more texting. Let me be
Speaker 4: thoughtful about that and make an effort, like if we
Speaker 4: do that work to bridge those gaps. When we deeply
Speaker 4: know somebody, we move into the stability commitment and then
Speaker 4: bliss stage, which is almost like the honeymoon stage, but
Speaker 4: you really deeply know somebody. And what's so interesting about
Speaker 4: what you just said is that usually the things if
Speaker 4: we end up in some sort of relationship with somebody,
Speaker 4: that we were limberent around because we put such high
Speaker 4: expectations on the person because they have so much control
Speaker 4: over our emotional state. Like you said, usually the very
Speaker 4: things that we infatuate with so strongly in the dating
Speaker 4: stage are the things that we come to resent in
Speaker 4: the power struggle stage the most and often lead to
Speaker 4: its downfall. So I don't know if you have any
Speaker 4: examples you can think of, but I'll share a few example.
Speaker 4: Maybe we meet somebody and we're like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 4: they're so assertive. That's so attractive. We're so, oh my gosh,
Speaker 4: you're so confident and assertive, and we put this on
Speaker 4: a pedestal and we're so infatuated with that trait. When
Speaker 4: the power struggle stage, we're like, they never compromise that,
Speaker 4: like what's going on and we get frustrated, Or maybe
Speaker 4: we meet somebody and we're like, oh, they're so easy going,
Speaker 4: they're so go with the flow, and we think it's
Speaker 4: so attractive. And then the powerstre stage, where like they're lazy,
Speaker 4: they never make an effort, they never initiate. So often
Speaker 4: these very things that we start off by having on
Speaker 4: a pedestal because they come with such high expectations, because
Speaker 4: this person has so much to weight over our emotional state.
Speaker 4: Over time, as we keep getting closer and closer, if
Speaker 4: in fact that lement relationship even lasts that long, those
Speaker 4: will be things that really frustrate us later on because
Speaker 4: of those very same difference.
Speaker 2: The thing you just described about how couples go through
Speaker 2: these six stages or six phases of a relationship.
Speaker 1: Can you fluctuate in and out of stages?
Speaker 2: And I say this because like being with my partner
Speaker 2: for eight years now, like you call it the power
Speaker 2: struggle phase, Like I feel like we have periods where
Speaker 2: we go back into a power struggle phase because we're
Speaker 2: in a different phase of life. It might be that
Speaker 2: we've had another kid or something else has happened that
Speaker 2: I feel like those stages must be also related to
Speaker 2: what it is that you're experiencing in your life, because
Speaker 2: you know, there's always new things that's being thrown at
Speaker 2: you that you have to overcome as a couple.
Speaker 4: Generally, what happens is if we still have lessons to
Speaker 4: learn with each other, we'll navigate back into the relationship.
Speaker 4: And I want to differentiate here being in the power
Speaker 4: struggle stage of relationship versus having a blip, having a
Speaker 4: challenge or disagreement, being able to navigate that things like that. So,
Speaker 4: sometimes what happens is if we still have these things
Speaker 4: where we know, for example, that our partner is sensitive
Speaker 4: to criticism or inconsistency, or we know that our partner
Speaker 4: needs transparency, but we haven't had that conversation, or we
Speaker 4: think maybe that's the case, but we haven't communicated about it.
Speaker 4: That's not a natural state of us having normalized the
Speaker 4: communication of needs in the relationship, then we will find
Speaker 4: ourselves going back and forth. If instead, we really normalize open,
Speaker 4: transparent communication of needs and relationships, we're really usually pretty
Speaker 4: smooth sailing when it comes to challenges. So, for example,
Speaker 4: let's say that you have a couple and they just
Speaker 4: had another kid, and let's say, oh, my goodness, like
Speaker 4: life is already really busy. There's a lot of time
Speaker 4: and commitments and demands. Now you have two young children
Speaker 4: and there's just a lot If you know, for example,
Speaker 4: that Okay, one person really needs their time alone and
Speaker 4: we have to make a little bit of space for that,
Speaker 4: and the other person maybe really needs a lot of
Speaker 4: validation that they're a good parent, that they're showing up,
Speaker 4: then if we know that in advance, those blips that
Speaker 4: would come up are going to be so much more
Speaker 4: smooth to sail through because we're able to go, hey,
Speaker 4: I know you need a little bit of time. I
Speaker 4: know there's a lot of demands. I'm going to make
Speaker 4: sure that we block off that one hour twice a
Speaker 4: week for you to do your own thing. And we
Speaker 4: can remind our partner if we're the one that needs validation, Hey,
Speaker 4: you know, I haven't heard a lot of validation in
Speaker 4: the relationship and I need that reassurance sometimes. Can you
Speaker 4: come back and just let me know, like you think
Speaker 4: I'm doing a good job or you know, So if
Speaker 4: we can normalize communicating openly, we'll usually get out of
Speaker 4: the power struggle stage and stay. But if there's still
Speaker 4: needs that we haven't fully identified and communicated consistently, or
Speaker 4: don't feel like we can just kind of raise our
Speaker 4: hand and bring back to the forefront as needed, then
Speaker 4: we may find ourselves going back and forth a little
Speaker 4: more frequently.
Speaker 3: You'll expectase using attachment stalls.
Speaker 1: How did if attachment.
Speaker 3: Styles effect or show up in a sight of limerens?
Speaker 3: And is there one attachment style that's more prone to
Speaker 3: experiences as you.
Speaker 4: Can probably guess, our anxious attachment styles, the ones that
Speaker 4: are afraid of being abandoned or alone, they tend to
Speaker 4: have limerens the most frequently and persistently. Okay, they often
Speaker 4: go from one object of limbrens to another, sometimes even
Speaker 4: back to back or sometimes with overlap. Because we also
Speaker 4: tend to outsource the most into the fantasy world, the
Speaker 4: areas that we struggle the most in the relationship to ourselves. Okay,
Speaker 4: So because anxious attachment sells, they struggle to self soothe.
Speaker 4: They're constantly seething throughlimbrians externally right in their fantasy or
Speaker 4: because they struggle to really make themselves feel seen or
Speaker 4: heard and important then they're going to fall into huge
Speaker 4: infatuation with that when they meet somebody who does things
Speaker 4: like that. So that's our anxious attachment style, and they
Speaker 4: will often pursue and try to gain proximity and closeness
Speaker 4: with their object of limns. If we look at the
Speaker 4: flip side of it, here's something really interesting. Are of
Speaker 4: avoidant attachment styles. They tend to actually fall into limmerens
Speaker 4: sometimes too, contrary to what people would often initially imagine,
Speaker 4: And the reason is that this type of limreans for
Speaker 4: them tends to specifically be with people were not available
Speaker 4: to them. So dismiss avoidants are much more likely to
Speaker 4: fall into limreents with movie stars, with people that are
Speaker 4: in relationships with people who are not actually available, because
Speaker 4: it's like, Okay, this is a safe way to get
Speaker 4: my needs met in the fantasy world without ever having
Speaker 4: to confront my fear of vulnerability or do much with
Speaker 4: this fearful avoidance tend to fall into limerence as well.
Speaker 4: But if they feel rejected or hurt, they're very quick
Speaker 4: to turn those feelings off because that's their coping mechanism
Speaker 4: to really retreat quickly and strongly so they can have limerents,
Speaker 4: but shut it off very quickly and usually it's not
Speaker 4: as long lasting. And then lastly, securely attach people highly
Speaker 4: unlikely to fall into limerens. They usually that well in dating,
Speaker 4: they don't let their feelings get the best of them,
Speaker 4: secure and balanced feelings. When they get into relationships, they
Speaker 4: communicate their needs openly, and that's because they have those
Speaker 4: cornerstones of like they already know how to meet their
Speaker 4: own needs and self suit to begin with, and so
Speaker 4: they're sat up for success to not have limerents sabotage relationships.
Speaker 2: Wouldn't it be so nice to be that well rounded
Speaker 2: as a person?
Speaker 1: Like well done? Well, yeah, how do you know?
Speaker 3: I'm just thinking back to like when I first met
Speaker 3: my filon safe as an example, and we met and
Speaker 3: we only had a couple of days together and then
Speaker 3: we were long distance. He lived on the other side
Speaker 3: of the world, and I remember our early days of
Speaker 3: communication were literally saying things like to each other, not
Speaker 3: just one sided, I'm obsessed with you. How do you
Speaker 3: know if when you're in the early throws of dating
Speaker 3: or a relationship, if it's crossing the border or crossing
Speaker 3: the line into limerens, or if it's just like quite
Speaker 3: a healthy lust, like that, quite that healthy early day relationship,
Speaker 3: because I think a lot of people experience that nearly
Speaker 3: days where it's probably not stole courage and unhealthy, but
Speaker 3: there are those feelings of like you are all I
Speaker 3: think about you, all I want you imagine your life together.
Speaker 3: What are the actual signs in red flags that it's
Speaker 3: in fact not just less and you have one hundred
Speaker 3: percent cross that line.
Speaker 4: So usually it's number one that you feel like you're
Speaker 4: on an emotional roller coaster. So I'll give you some
Speaker 4: of the signs together you can kind of track them.
Speaker 4: The one you feel like you're on an emotional roller coaster,
Speaker 4: you don't hear from them. Maybe you can't eat, or
Speaker 4: you can't sleep, or you just feel this sense of restlessness.
Speaker 4: And that's because number two, there's usually a pretty high
Speaker 4: degree of self abandonment taking place, So you're thinking about
Speaker 4: the person non stop, you're not present in your own life,
Speaker 4: you're not soothing yourself as a result, very effectively, number three,
Speaker 4: a lot of your behaviors in that relationship are motivated
Speaker 4: by who you think this person wants you to be
Speaker 4: rather than who you are, and actually showing and sharing
Speaker 4: your true self. And number four, you probably find when
Speaker 4: it comes to relationships that there's this sense of truly
Speaker 4: obsessive and of thoughts like you'll hear with Limerens all
Speaker 4: the way to I dream about this person all the
Speaker 4: time at night, I think about them like non stop obsessively.
Speaker 4: Whereas when it comes to and by the way, number five,
Speaker 4: you'll see a huge fear of rejection and just constant
Speaker 4: overanalyzing of things to the point where it can actually
Speaker 4: leave you to clam up or be in paralysis. Juxtaposing
Speaker 4: that if you're like, oh my gosh, I'm really excited
Speaker 4: by this person. I feel this really strong sense of
Speaker 4: lust and excitement and connection. But I'm able to be
Speaker 4: present in my everyday life. I'm able to be myself
Speaker 4: with this person. I'm able to communicate about my needs
Speaker 4: with this person or my boundaries or concerns. I'm able
Speaker 4: to really showcase who I am with this individual. And
Speaker 4: I'm not like people pleasing and over analyzing everything so much.
Speaker 4: And I'm able to still focus on my career goals
Speaker 4: and my friendships and have balance in these other areas
Speaker 4: of life, rather than constantly using my spare time to
Speaker 4: maybe check their social media or fantasize about them. That
Speaker 4: would be the difference between really strong less and connection
Speaker 4: is actual elements.
Speaker 2: I finally so fascinating because for a turn that I
Speaker 2: honestly prior to, like I said, bringing it up, I
Speaker 2: was like, I've never really had heard of this or
Speaker 2: discussed it, And how now I can see it links
Speaker 2: into so many ways in which people show up into
Speaker 2: their not just dating life, but into their relationships or
Speaker 2: their fantasies about relationships. They find it utterly fascinating. How
Speaker 2: if you are somebody who is inclined to have these
Speaker 2: sort of limbrient style relationships one side of relationships, how
Speaker 2: do you identify it and break that pattern behavior.
Speaker 4: The first thing is to go through and recognize, like,
Speaker 4: am I somebody who a this is a big theme
Speaker 4: in my life? I see myself doing this from relationship
Speaker 4: to relationship. I see this fixation and preoccupation with people.
Speaker 4: Maybe I notice myself connecting with them way more in
Speaker 4: the fantasy realm than actually in reality. If you have
Speaker 4: a lot of those signs that we just talked about,
Speaker 4: then that's the first step, is that awareness piece. The
Speaker 4: next step, and this is one of the fun parts
Speaker 4: that what I find to just be so interesting is
Speaker 4: that the next step is that you have to look
Speaker 4: at Usually there's a theme during every object of limerens.
Speaker 4: So let's just say, for example, somebody's like anxiously attached
Speaker 4: and they realize, Wow, I'm often in limerens throughout my
Speaker 4: whole adult life, Like I usually have somebody who I'm
Speaker 4: in limereents with every few months or a few times
Speaker 4: a year, and this is a theme year over year.
Speaker 4: You'll actually see if you look at the types of
Speaker 4: fantasies you have when you're in limerens, that there's very
Speaker 4: similar themes. So some examples might be and this is
Speaker 4: where we start to identify the needs that are getting
Speaker 4: met by the fantasy. A lot of people will say
Speaker 4: things like, oh my gosh, I always imagined that this
Speaker 4: person would see me doing something I'm good at, And
Speaker 4: usually the need is to feel validated. Right to be
Speaker 4: seen is good enough and you know that you're capable.
Speaker 4: Some people are like, oh my gosh, I imagine that
Speaker 4: we go away together, and we run away and we're
Speaker 4: just with each other, and we're so connected and we
Speaker 4: have such deep conversations. And usually it's like, Okay, that
Speaker 4: person just wants to feel connected, seen, heard, understood. Other
Speaker 4: times it's the person will drop everything in this grandiose
Speaker 4: way to make me the center of their universe, and
Speaker 4: it's like, well, I want to feel like I'm important,
Speaker 4: like I matter. So what we do is we actually
Speaker 4: start basically dissecting the themes from limberin object to limberitin
Speaker 4: objects in the fantasy, what specifically are you fantasizing about
Speaker 4: and what needs is your mind actually attempting to meet
Speaker 4: in those fantasies. And then as a result of this,
Speaker 4: then we're like, okay, from one to ten, how much
Speaker 4: are you meeting those needs in your own life in
Speaker 4: a healthy way? And usually it's like a zero or
Speaker 4: a one. Usually if somebody's like, oh I want to
Speaker 4: feel seen, they really don't see themselves much. They don't
Speaker 4: really listen to their own feelings or attune to themselves.
Speaker 4: If somebody wants to feel important, usually they're the very
Speaker 4: same people that constantly put themselves last because they're people
Speaker 4: pleasing and putting everybody first, so they're yearning for somebody
Speaker 4: to make them feel important instead. Sometimes people want safety,
Speaker 4: right or certainty. They just want somebody to commit to
Speaker 4: the future because they're lacking safety and certainty in their
Speaker 4: own life and their own lifestyle choices. So we start
Speaker 4: dissecting those needs and then we go through an actual
Speaker 4: twenty one day game plan of how to get those
Speaker 4: needs met and start building a healthy relationship to yourself
Speaker 4: in those ways. Because it takes about twenty one days
Speaker 4: to rewire or recondition our own subconscious patterns, and so
Speaker 4: we do that work meet your needs every day for
Speaker 4: twenty one days. At first, it feels kind of mechanical
Speaker 4: for people like, Oh, it's not that fun. But actually
Speaker 4: around day seven, ten eleven, people start to be like, oh,
Speaker 4: I actually like sitting with myself and seeing myself more,
Speaker 4: or actually setting boundaries and prioritizing things that are important
Speaker 4: to me. It's actually making me feel good. And then
Speaker 4: they start to take what was limericks as feedback. Do
Speaker 4: the underlying work improve the quality of relationship to themselves
Speaker 4: and their lives in general, and also not fall so
Speaker 4: victim to constantly trying to outsource this from the outside in.
Speaker 2: Would this also require a aspect of no contact or
Speaker 2: reducing contact, because I would say, I know that we
Speaker 2: speak about it being one sided. But I wouldare say
Speaker 2: that there are people who have these limit relationships and
Speaker 2: they're not entirely one sided. They're getting enough that's fueling
Speaker 2: the consistency of wanting it to continue. You know, like
Speaker 2: they might be getting the flirting, or they might be
Speaker 2: getting the affirming text but doesn't go anywhere, there's nothing
Speaker 2: more to it. In that instance, would you say that
Speaker 2: someone would need to cut contact with that person in
Speaker 2: order to do this twenty one day kind of detox from.
Speaker 4: This fantastic question. So the answer to this would be yes,
Speaker 4: if you're seeing yourself in a position where this person
Speaker 4: isn't investing back in you. So if you're getting breadcrumbed,
Speaker 4: if the person's clearly not making an effort and isn't
Speaker 4: interested in you. Because if somebody is interested, and it's
Speaker 4: like early days, we can do the underlying work and
Speaker 4: still try to like salvage the connection and relationship Befo're
Speaker 4: willing to show up, and oftentimes that can move in
Speaker 4: a positive direction. But if it's like your coworker and
Speaker 4: you text the whole time and they text you one
Speaker 4: word answers back or like you know, these types of things,
Speaker 4: and it is like no contact, give yourself the break,
Speaker 4: detogs with all, and do the underlying work to heal,
Speaker 4: so you don't have to just constantly feel like the
Speaker 4: band aid's being ripped off.
Speaker 3: What's the connection in the crossover with limreents and stalking?
Speaker 1: And I say that, sorry, no, I say that it's
Speaker 1: so extreme.
Speaker 3: Well, when you think of the two they share characteristic,
Speaker 3: it's intimate stalking. When you think of both characteristics of
Speaker 3: limerents and stalking, it stems down to an obsession. We
Speaker 3: talk about limerens being detrimental to yourself, your mental health,
Speaker 3: your relationship, but how often does it crossover and become
Speaker 3: detrimental to somebody else because you develop this obsession that
Speaker 3: results in intimate stalking.
Speaker 4: It's actually the exact root of stocking. Yeah, so you
Speaker 4: can imagine it exists along a continuum. Right, So anybody
Speaker 4: who's like, oh, I've been in limerens before, it does
Speaker 4: not mean that you're a starker. Okay, just to make it.
Speaker 3: If you're in their garden outside their house, that is stalking.
Speaker 1: You crossed over.
Speaker 4: Exactly. And so there's this the state there. Like I'll
Speaker 4: tell you a story. So I had a client once
Speaker 4: and he came to me and he's sad, I want
Speaker 4: to win over this woman. And I was like, oh, hey,
Speaker 4: you know, usually I help people do the inner work,
Speaker 4: not really like the outer work. But I was like,
Speaker 4: I'll hear him out and there's probably going to be
Speaker 4: patterns or themes that we can work on. So he
Speaker 4: told me that he had been on three dates with
Speaker 4: this woman. First date, he said, he didn't really think
Speaker 4: he was going to be that interested, and it went
Speaker 4: super well. Second date, he said, he started like feeling
Speaker 4: really strong feelings, like really obsessed. And one of the
Speaker 4: things that she gave to him, which is one of
Speaker 4: the most common themes in liments, is she made him
Speaker 4: feel really seen, and he always felt really badly about himself.
Speaker 4: It wasn't that she just made him feel seen. It
Speaker 4: was like she made him feel validated, like she gave
Speaker 4: him a couple of compliments. And between date two and
Speaker 4: date three, he said he was like the infatuation was
Speaker 4: just through the roof, Like he said that he was
Speaker 4: uncontrollably like thinking about her NonStop. Anyways, it turned out
Speaker 4: as the conversation unfolded that he was driving by her
Speaker 4: house every single day. They went on the third date,
Speaker 4: it didn't go well, and when it didn't go well,
Speaker 4: she said, I'm not really like looking because he started
Speaker 4: to clam up right, He started not being he was panicking.
Speaker 4: He was so obsessed with her. And what ended up
Speaker 4: happening is after the third date, she was like, yeah,
Speaker 4: I don't want to continue, sent him like a full
Speaker 4: breakup message or like ending dating message, and he said
Speaker 4: he kept going by her house, bringing her gifts, dropping
Speaker 4: her things off after it had ended, and she came
Speaker 4: out one day and said, you cannot come to my house,
Speaker 4: like you're not allowed to be here. And by the time,
Speaker 4: like I was still getting to know him. During this
Speaker 4: initial conversation, I was like, did you go back? And
Speaker 4: he was like, yes, I think she just didn't like
Speaker 4: the first couple of gifts, and so he was rationalizing
Speaker 4: and justifying, and he when you looked at his childhood
Speaker 4: in his background, he had a lot of really intense
Speaker 4: trauma around some of these different things, being deeply unseen,
Speaker 4: being made to feel really terrible about himself. And so
Speaker 4: you see how like trauma actually impacts the subconscious mind
Speaker 4: this way, where like, oh my goodness, somebody's doing something
Speaker 4: to bring me the opposite of this, and it is
Speaker 4: so completely addictive. So we ended up having to do
Speaker 4: the work on like wait a second, here, here's reality,
Speaker 4: here's where we're going. And good for him, he was
Speaker 4: willing to do it, and eventually like really moved away
Speaker 4: and did the underlying work and stop visiting her house.
Speaker 4: But like, literally, if limerence goes on for too long,
Speaker 4: if it's too extreme, if those needs are so deeply
Speaker 4: unmet and somebody represents them, I mean literally, we're wired
Speaker 4: to get our needs met as people. It's how we've
Speaker 4: gone after food and survived and build shelters. You know,
Speaker 4: we're wired for this. So if that happens in that
Speaker 4: emotional form, people can stop at nothing.
Speaker 2: So interesting because you know, when we think about we
Speaker 2: spoke about apes last year, Baby Reindeer. I don't know
Speaker 2: if you're familiar with it.
Speaker 4: I never watched it, but I heard, Oh.
Speaker 1: It's really interesting.
Speaker 2: But you literally just hit the nail on the head
Speaker 2: in the terms of like what their experience was. There
Speaker 2: this woman who came into the bar, and the bartender
Speaker 2: gave her a lot of attention because he felt like
Speaker 2: she was so lonely, and that's what sparked this this obsession.
Speaker 2: But he was like, I was just trying to you know,
Speaker 2: gave her a free drink and I was trying to
Speaker 2: make her feel better. It wasn't flirting with her, but
Speaker 2: it was this like level of her feeling seen that
Speaker 2: made her really attached to the idea that they were
Speaker 2: was this fantasy of a relationship going on.
Speaker 1: It was fascinating.
Speaker 3: You've just made me like. This happens so many times
Speaker 3: to Laura and I over the years. You know, we're
Speaker 3: six years and eight hundred episodes deep, and sometimes we'll
Speaker 3: speak to somebody like psychologists, through a therapist, and we
Speaker 3: have these moments of oh, oh, I did that talking
Speaker 3: about you know, talking about like.
Speaker 1: Please don't say you stalk to someone, no, but.
Speaker 3: Talking well, I want to talk about stalking, but in
Speaker 3: a way that I didn't really maybe think it was
Speaker 3: a thing. But I remember, do you remember two years ago,
Speaker 3: before I got into my relationship, there was this guy
Speaker 3: and we were very loosely seeing each other.
Speaker 1: It reminded me of what you just said.
Speaker 3: A couple of dates didn't want anything anymore, didn't go well,
Speaker 3: called it and then like excessive bunches of like two
Speaker 3: hundred roses were coming to my house and then he
Speaker 3: jumped to my fence at night, like was trying to
Speaker 3: get into my hat, like banging on my door at
Speaker 3: three am.
Speaker 4: And I remember, now that.
Speaker 3: You've said it, I remember telling the girls and everything
Speaker 3: and everyone's like, that's crazy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was like, I'm in love with you, and
Speaker 1: you were like, you don't know me. And remember I
Speaker 1: literally said I didn't know me.
Speaker 3: But then I'm thinking of the way that I handled that,
Speaker 3: and it was to almost make an excuse like, oh,
Speaker 3: he's just not dealing well with you know, me not
Speaker 3: wanting to be with him, and he's just he just
Speaker 3: really likes me, instead of being like, hey, this is cooked,
Speaker 3: you can't come to my house. Like these these ideas
Speaker 3: of women constantly making excuses to not offend somebody else,
Speaker 3: like offend a man or I don't know, but I'm
Speaker 3: just like doing the work on myself as we speak,
Speaker 3: hearing you say that's talking episode.
Speaker 4: That's such a powerful story because it's exactly the truth
Speaker 4: and what happens is usually the people who end up
Speaker 4: being the objects of limerens for a really long time
Speaker 4: are people who are afraid to hurt somebody's feelings and
Speaker 4: they end up because remember the person who like is
Speaker 4: in limerens, they will find like the teeny tiniest things
Speaker 4: and turn it into like they like me, right, they'll
Speaker 4: turn it into because they'll they're they're just wired so
Speaker 4: deeply to get this need, get this need met. And
Speaker 4: so often if we're like too gentle or too fragile,
Speaker 4: because we're like, oh, this person's just so sweet, are
Speaker 4: sending me all these roses which you can totally see
Speaker 4: why you derive there, Usually what ends up happening is
Speaker 4: that person says, oh, they didn't reject me out right,
Speaker 4: they're just afraid of how strong their feelings will be.
Speaker 4: They're just you know, and they'll justify all these things
Speaker 4: to keep getting closer. And it can be really hard
Speaker 4: to shake somebody like that in that particular case.
Speaker 2: So what would be your recommendation If you are on
Speaker 2: the opposite end of this, and you can recognize that
Speaker 2: you are the object of someone else's limerens, how do
Speaker 2: you kindly but also with intention tell someone that you
Speaker 2: are not interested in them to break this sort of cycle.
Speaker 4: I always say there's sort of a two strike rule
Speaker 4: and then complete no contact. So you start by saying
Speaker 4: really clearly, like I am not interested. Right, and this
Speaker 4: is usually probably the first time where you're cutting something off,
Speaker 4: but maybe the person's a little over the top, so
Speaker 4: you're really direct, really clear, I'm not interested. I don't
Speaker 4: feel like we're compatible. I don't think we're a match.
Speaker 4: This isn't what I'm looking for, like very clear. If
Speaker 4: the person then keeps going and violates boundaries and you
Speaker 4: start to see some of these red flags that like, hey,
Speaker 4: you've given them a clear distinct message that you're not
Speaker 4: and to proceed, but yet they're still coming back. Well,
Speaker 4: now we kind of have a boundary violation because you
Speaker 4: told them you're boundaries, you told them you weren't interested,
Speaker 4: and now they're still here, you know, clamming away at
Speaker 4: the situation. That's definitely a pretty big red flag. So
Speaker 4: at that point we give a really clear rejection, like
Speaker 4: very very clear. If from that point the person still
Speaker 4: keeps coming, then you have to go pure and no
Speaker 4: contact because similar to a narcissist and how a narcissist
Speaker 4: and not saying that anybody in limerents or extreme limits
Speaker 4: is a narcissist, but just as an analogy here, you know,
Speaker 4: how the narcissists they get narcissistic supply from. If you
Speaker 4: are validating to them that pumps their tires, they get
Speaker 4: supply from that. They keep coming back for it. But
Speaker 4: also if you give them a negative reaction, they're like, oh,
Speaker 4: I have power over you. I can make you feel something,
Speaker 4: I can get under your skin, and that also feeds
Speaker 4: their need for a narcissistic supply. Limberns is similar in
Speaker 4: that way. If you keep engaging for too long after
Speaker 4: really clear, distinct rejections, the person's like, oh, well, they
Speaker 4: keep reaching out to me, they keep talking about me,
Speaker 4: they keep talking to me, they keep and so if
Speaker 4: it goes on for too long, they also derive the
Speaker 4: sense of connection from even the outfront rejections itself. So
Speaker 4: it's always too really clear, so there's no you know, misunderstandings.
Speaker 4: And then if we still see somebody doing that complete
Speaker 4: no contact gray rocking and really going from there, so fascinating.
Speaker 3: I think so many people right now listening would be
Speaker 3: having these are half moments for both maybe situations that
Speaker 3: they've been in or situations that they've been on the receiving.
Speaker 1: End of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have a question in terms of like, I mean,
Speaker 2: I feel like part of this kind of comes down
Speaker 2: to your EQ, but also is there an age relation
Speaker 2: to this? Because when I think about my own experiences,
Speaker 2: I feel like maybe I had more limerent relationships when
Speaker 2: I was younger and felt more experienced in dating, And
Speaker 2: then I mean, I'm married now.
Speaker 1: So I definitely haven't had one in a long time.
Speaker 2: But I guess like for me, I would say that potentially,
Speaker 2: And I don't know whether this is correct, but maybe
Speaker 2: there's an age element for some people in terms of
Speaker 2: the intensity and frequency of limerens.
Speaker 4: You're absolutely correct. And the reason is because as we're
Speaker 4: individuating as teenagers, right as like we turn twelve their team,
Speaker 4: we start to sort of develop our own sense of
Speaker 4: self and identity. So much of the development of that
Speaker 4: is the ability to understand ourselves our needs and be
Speaker 4: able to meet them as a means of self regulating.
Speaker 4: And so if we start meeting specific needs and then
Speaker 4: we start learning what traits we have and the things
Speaker 4: we find admirable, we take some of those traits on
Speaker 4: in ourselves or we seek to become more of those things,
Speaker 4: then we have less of a context for limbrence. However,
Speaker 4: if somebody is just really insecurely attached, they really don't
Speaker 4: meet their own needs at all, or they have a
Speaker 4: history of tumultuous relationships or trauma. I mean, you're just
Speaker 4: despite that person's age, if they don't do that inner
Speaker 4: work and healing, they're still going to not individuate properly
Speaker 4: into having a strong and stable sense of self. And
Speaker 4: really the less stable that sense of self is, the
Speaker 4: more likely that person is to run into limerence as
Speaker 4: a whole. So definitely age for most people because we
Speaker 4: start to develop into ourselves and grow into ourselves, and
Speaker 4: that allows us to be less likely to be limberate.
Speaker 4: But if we have people who don't grow and develop properly,
Speaker 4: then you could say age could be taken out of
Speaker 4: that equation.
Speaker 3: Let's take a little gear switch for a second to
Speaker 3: something a little bit more positive.
Speaker 1: In the dating world.
Speaker 3: You do speak a lot about conscious dating, and I
Speaker 3: know that there's a lot of pure exhaustion with people
Speaker 3: that are dating right now, a lot of people giving
Speaker 3: up because the dating world has changed so dramatically over
Speaker 3: the last sort of five ten years. What do you
Speaker 3: mean by conscious.
Speaker 4: Dating, great question. Sub Conscious dating is like dating with
Speaker 4: your conscious mind is actually what it's used to represent.
Speaker 4: So when we start dating, we often start dating from
Speaker 4: this perspective of our subconscious mind. And your subconscious mind
Speaker 4: is your habituate itself, your conditions self from all of
Speaker 4: your upbringing and patterns and themes. And your subconscious mind
Speaker 4: is responsible for roughly ninety five percent of all of
Speaker 4: your beliefs, your thoughts, your emotions, and your actions or behaviors.
Speaker 4: Your conscious mind is three to five percent, roughly. And
Speaker 4: so what often happens is we date from our patterns, okay,
Speaker 4: from what's familiar. Now, what's really interesting compeled this is
Speaker 4: that your subconscious mind is literally wired to seek familiarity
Speaker 4: because it equates it to safety and thus survival, and
Speaker 4: ultimately we're just survival wired. So let's use an example
Speaker 4: of somebody who grew up in a home where maybe
Speaker 4: both of their parents weren't narcissists, but maybe they had
Speaker 4: narcissistic traits. Maybe it was kind of always about the parents,
Speaker 4: you know, the parents put the kids down a lot,
Speaker 4: they were volatile and kind of all over the place.
Speaker 4: This individual probably has a lot of conditioning to go, Okay, well,
Speaker 4: I don't really know how to empathize it with myself
Speaker 4: because I wasn't empathized with that wasn't model to me.
Speaker 4: I am pretty critical of myself because I was always
Speaker 4: criticized growing up. I constantly had to violate my boundaries
Speaker 4: to please my parents, and maybe I constantly manipulated myself
Speaker 4: to become who I thought people wanted me to be. Well, now,
Speaker 4: your subconscious comfort zone. What's actually most familiar is the
Speaker 4: way that you treat yourself as an adult. And if
Speaker 4: you're carrying those conditioned subconscious patterns from childhood, who you're
Speaker 4: most attracted to in your adult life a narcissist, because
Speaker 4: that is literally that person comes along, and what do
Speaker 4: they do. They put you down, They violate your boundaries,
Speaker 4: they don't empathize with you. They manipulate, And so our
Speaker 4: conscious mind, that like little three to five percent of
Speaker 4: our logical rational selves, might be like, wait, these are
Speaker 4: red flags. Wait, this person's not speaking healthily to me.
Speaker 4: This isn't appropriate, But your subconscious mind is going to
Speaker 4: go well, familiar, feel safe. We have these butterflies. Let's
Speaker 4: keep going back in the same direction. So conscious dating
Speaker 4: means first and foremost, our ability to recognize our stuff
Speaker 4: and recognize, Hey, if I'm going to date, I need
Speaker 4: to know my standards in a relationship. I need to
Speaker 4: know my non negotiables, and I need to know what
Speaker 4: patterns I have from my own upbringing that are maybe
Speaker 4: going to put me in harms way later on, and
Speaker 4: let me actually do the work on those underlying patterns.
Speaker 4: And then when we start dating, it's about actually using
Speaker 4: the dating stage of relationships as something that is meant
Speaker 4: for vetting, not something and it's meant for, Oh this,
Speaker 4: I'm attracted to this person, let me pursue it because
Speaker 4: I think they're super attractive and we have fun. No, no, no,
Speaker 4: I know what I'm looking for. I know what my
Speaker 4: standards are. I know what things I'm not able to
Speaker 4: put up with or unwilling to aka am I not
Speaker 4: negotiables or deal breakers. And I'm conscious of some of
Speaker 4: my own themes from my past and how that might
Speaker 4: put me in a place where I'd be attracted to
Speaker 4: the wrong person. And I'm going to make sure I'm
Speaker 4: vetting for that. And then what I often tell people
Speaker 4: is you don't take that information and like go on
Speaker 4: a job interview with people and sit down on day
Speaker 4: one and be like Okay, here's all the things that
Speaker 4: I need to know. But ideally we go on a
Speaker 4: first date, make it short and sweet, see if there's
Speaker 4: a connection or you know, there's a spark. And then
Speaker 4: after that first date, I often say, okay, ask one
Speaker 4: or two questions per date. It's getting to the bottom
Speaker 4: of this betting process. So for example, I know for me,
Speaker 4: I was a fearful avoidant attachment style. Did all this work?
Speaker 4: You know, one of the biggest things I value about
Speaker 4: my relationship with my husband is like, we work through conflict.
Speaker 4: If there's an is you, we're going to hash it out.
Speaker 4: And you know, if in some theoretical world I went
Speaker 4: back to dating, that would be one of the first
Speaker 4: things I would look for, Like is this person going
Speaker 4: to navigate conflicts by talking, for having like a forward conversation,
Speaker 4: really being able to just speak openly and solve for things.
Speaker 4: And so maybe on like the second or third date,
Speaker 4: I might just bring up you know, at one point
Speaker 4: during the day, you know, how do you tend to
Speaker 4: handle conflict? Are you somebody who addresses it head on
Speaker 4: and tries to hash it out, or are you somebody
Speaker 4: who kind of like hopes it goes away, sweeps it
Speaker 4: under the rock, and based on their response, that would
Speaker 4: be me being like, Okay, is this somebody I want
Speaker 4: to continue to see or is this somebody I don't.
Speaker 4: So that's really what conscious dating is is getting really
Speaker 4: clear on your patterns, your no negotiable as your standards,
Speaker 4: and consistently spending that first three or four months of
Speaker 4: the dating stage of relationship truly vetting to see if
Speaker 4: this person is actually what you're looking for.
Speaker 2: I think about my past dating and I recognize in
Speaker 2: myself like that for a lot of people, if you
Speaker 2: prioritize like the feelings pot over the the.
Speaker 1: Like logic, that seems very difficult.
Speaker 2: You know, like if you're someone who's like, but I
Speaker 2: have these strong feelings and I know technically is probably
Speaker 2: not going to be great for me. Sometimes it's it.
Speaker 2: And I think for a lot of people it's hard
Speaker 2: to turn that off. It's hard to go, Okay, I'm
Speaker 2: not going to pursue this on the odd chance that
Speaker 2: actually works out, you know, like that it's the miracle exception.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think that, like, it's hard to put
Speaker 2: those parameters in place for a lot of people totally.
Speaker 4: And that's where it's so meaningful to do subconscious work.
Speaker 4: So really it goes back to that theme we were talking
Speaker 4: about with Limerens, which is if you're finding yourself just
Speaker 4: having all these feelings and yet you know better, you
Speaker 4: know this person is like maybe you know, demoralizing you
Speaker 4: at times, or maybe violating your boundaries or maybe pressuring
Speaker 4: you in all these ways. If you see some pretty
Speaker 4: significant red flags, or if this person has non negotiables,
Speaker 4: maybe you're like, I'm not willing to date somebody who's
Speaker 4: using drugs, and this person's using drugs all the time,
Speaker 4: and you're like, hold on a second year, I mean,
Speaker 4: this is my not negotiable, but you find yourself pursuing it.
Speaker 4: It actually goes back to that sort of exercise that
Speaker 4: we did around like what needs is this person meeting
Speaker 4: that they have such a stronghold on you when literally
Speaker 4: you know that this is a non negotiable for you,
Speaker 4: And then what we get people to do is learn
Speaker 4: to actually show up and meet their needs that way,
Speaker 4: find other healthy sources of people to meet those needs,
Speaker 4: like friendships or healthy family relationships, and what you'll see
Speaker 4: as a result is then somebody is able to not
Speaker 4: obsess over somebody who maybe isn't right for them because
Speaker 4: they're doing that inner work to get those needs matter
Speaker 4: new ways and then allows them to make more consciously
Speaker 4: based decisions.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's definitely one thing to be able to write
Speaker 3: down your non negotiables and your boundaries, and it's another
Speaker 3: thing to stick to them. Same as it's easy to
Speaker 3: give advice, But sometimes you can't take your own advice.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: Sometimes it's a slippery slope. And when you go back
Speaker 3: to you non negotibles list and you think a year
Speaker 3: deep what you've sacrificed, there's often quite a lot. Because
Speaker 3: you hold onto the one positive thing and you're like, well,
Speaker 3: it's okay. It's like a balancing act. It's okay that
Speaker 3: they don't meet this and they do drugs and parties
Speaker 3: sometimes because they show up when I ask them to.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: Also, sometimes it's a slow creep and like you know,
Speaker 2: if you've started dating someone and it's like one non
Speaker 2: negotiable and then you're like, oh, I'll forgive this because
Speaker 2: I'll maybe this was like a one time, you don't
Speaker 2: want to be too severe with it, and so then
Speaker 2: you find yourself making these allowances and it's not until
Speaker 2: you look back that you're like, actually, I've made a
Speaker 2: lot of allowances. Like that slow creep of allowances has
Speaker 2: gotten me to a place where I'm like my boundaries
Speaker 2: and the things I said when non negotiables have been
Speaker 2: totally compromised.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's when you limerens for someone outside of
Speaker 3: the marriage comes in.
Speaker 4: So can I share a story with you? So there's
Speaker 4: this book. It was one of my favorite books I
Speaker 4: ever read, and it's called The Mastery of Love. It
Speaker 4: was by the same author that wrote the Four Agreements.
Speaker 4: And I read this book like fifteen years ago, so
Speaker 4: I might butcher the story a little bit. But in
Speaker 4: this book, there's this analogy and they say, Okay, imagine
Speaker 4: that you have a magical kitchen and you can snap
Speaker 4: your fingers, and the moment you snap your fingers, you
Speaker 4: can have whatever food you want in your magical kitchen.
Speaker 4: And let's say somebody comes along one day and you're
Speaker 4: well fed and you have everything you need from your
Speaker 4: magical kitchen, and somebody knocks on your door and they're like, hey,
Speaker 4: I have a pizza, and you can have a piece
Speaker 4: of the pizza. But you have to do all these
Speaker 4: things that I tell you to do. There's all these
Speaker 4: strings attached. You're going to look at that person and
Speaker 4: be like, no, I have a magical kitchen. I can
Speaker 4: make a pizza in a heartbeat, Like I don't need
Speaker 4: your pizza with all these strings attached. But then let's
Speaker 4: say your magical kitchen breaks down and it's like done,
Speaker 4: and you're starving, you haven't eaten for three days, and
Speaker 4: that person comes back and they knock at your door
Speaker 4: and they're like, hey, I have a pizza. It comes
Speaker 4: with these strings attached. Because you are starving, you're going
Speaker 4: to be willing to put up with all of these
Speaker 4: things that you wouldn't normally because of your internal emotional state.
Speaker 4: And this is an analogy for really self love. If
Speaker 4: we know how to meet our own needs and we
Speaker 4: know what we need and who we are, then we're
Speaker 4: not going to put up with somebody's chaos just because
Speaker 4: they represent one or two needs that we are starving for.
Speaker 4: And so that's why a huge aspect of like healing
Speaker 4: from whether it's limerens or being able to actually consciously date,
Speaker 4: also requires doing that inner work first, which is like,
Speaker 4: what do I really need? What makes me feel good?
Speaker 4: How can I start giving these things to myself so
Speaker 4: I have my own magical kitchen. I'm not starving, and
Speaker 4: then I'm going to see somebody come into my life
Speaker 4: and they're going to have all these red flags, but
Speaker 4: there's one need and I'm willing to filter out all
Speaker 4: of those red flags because I'm starving. So just a
Speaker 4: huge encouragement for anybody who listens just to do that
Speaker 4: in our work, because if we do see ourselves having
Speaker 4: those themes or patterns, it's actually feedback for us that hey,
Speaker 4: maybe there's a place where not knowing ourselves or loving
Speaker 4: ourselves or showing up for our own needs, and that's
Speaker 4: a huge step towards healing.
Speaker 2: Tyas, thank you so much for coming and being a
Speaker 2: part of the pod. Honestly, I feel like I've learned
Speaker 2: so much from speaking to you, and you know, we
Speaker 2: have these conversations every day, but there's always a few
Speaker 2: conversations that really kind of like crack the mold in
Speaker 2: terms of like a new way of describing it. And
Speaker 2: I genuinely feel that, like both Britt and I can
Speaker 2: see we're sitting here being like, ah.
Speaker 3: There'll be a lot of realizations I think from listeners
Speaker 3: that listen to this. I know that we had them
Speaker 3: ourselves in this discussion, so I know that this is
Speaker 3: going to drive home in a way that we haven't
Speaker 3: probably done before, which I think is really cool. I
Speaker 3: think it's cool we can get to this stay age
Speaker 3: of these conversations and still be learning so much.
Speaker 1: And thank you so much. You've been an absolute dream.
Speaker 4: Thank you guys so much. It was so fun to
Speaker 4: be here with you, and you are our exceptional house.
Speaker 4: So thank you, Grouch, thank you.
Speaker 3: We're going to link all of your details in our
Speaker 3: show notes for anyone that wants to go and discover
Speaker 3: more