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Speaker 1: Already and this is this is the daily This is

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Speaker 1: the Daily OS. Oh, now it makes sense. Good morning

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Speaker 1: and welcome to the Daily OS. It is Monday, the

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Speaker 1: second of December.

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Speaker 2: I'm Billy, I'm Zara.

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Speaker 1: In the very late hours of Thursday night, the Australian

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Speaker 1: Senate passed a social media ban for children under sixteen.

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Speaker 3: Social media is doing harm to our children. Today parents

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Speaker 3: can have a different discussion with their young ones, a

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Speaker 3: different discussion that will result in better outcomes and less

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Speaker 3: harm for young Australians.

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Speaker 1: It means Australia is now the first country to ban

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Speaker 1: children under sixteen from using social media. It was a

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Speaker 1: huge move and one that has triggered a tsunami of praise, criticism,

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Speaker 1: and also curiosity from around the world. Zara. Pretty much

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Speaker 1: every single major media publication around the world has covered

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Speaker 1: this with a lot of intrigue.

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Speaker 2: I always feel this air of self importance when I

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Speaker 2: see overseas. Yeah, let's talking about Australia. I was like

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Speaker 2: New York Times, the whole tile dedicated to us.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I was going to say the New York Times

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Speaker 1: as well, but there was also Washington Post.

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Speaker 2: Everywhere, and I think that goes to as you said,

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Speaker 2: the fact that we are the first country in the

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Speaker 2: whole world to do something like this, and it is

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Speaker 2: very major.

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Speaker 1: Just to point out, we're actually not the first to

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Speaker 1: have an age related restriction. So in France, for example,

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Speaker 1: they actually have a national band for teens under fifteen,

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Speaker 1: but we are the first to have the age of sixteen.

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Speaker 1: So that's why it's the strictest social media band because

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Speaker 1: of the age.

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Speaker 2: Of sixteen, gotcha. And that was in itself the whole

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Speaker 2: discussion that the Albanezi government had to have about what

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Speaker 2: that age was going to be, because some of it

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Speaker 2: says fourteen, some of it says sixteen. As you said,

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Speaker 2: France is in between there. I do want to just

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Speaker 2: before we get into that, just take it back a

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Speaker 2: second and really just focus in on what the bill

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Speaker 2: actually was, and then perhaps we can go to as

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Speaker 2: we spoke about that response around the world.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so essentially this will make it illegal for children

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Speaker 1: under sixteen to access certain social media platforms. I say

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Speaker 1: certain social media platforms because it's not all of them.

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Speaker 1: So the ones that will be impacted are Snapchat, Reddit, Instagram,

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Speaker 1: TikTok x, and Facebook. The ones that won't be affected

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Speaker 1: include YouTube and WhatsApp. There's also been some discussion about

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Speaker 1: the platforms that don't require you to have an account,

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Speaker 1: but you can still watch the content on those platforms,

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Speaker 1: for example, YouTube, you don't that is I like app?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and then with WhatsApp, messaging apps were completely precluded

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Speaker 2: from this bill, So that's why that is there. Can

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Speaker 2: you just talk me through, Billy a bit about what

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Speaker 2: the reasoning, at least the reasoning that the alban Easy

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Speaker 2: government gave for introducing and then passing this bill was.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Just before we came into the studio, I was

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Speaker 1: just reading the explanatory memorandum, which is just an explainer.

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Speaker 1: It's a document that explains the reasoning behind every single

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Speaker 1: bill that is introduced in Parliament. And the big thing

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Speaker 1: that kept coming up is that this is a bill

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Speaker 1: to help parents, and that's also been very consistent in

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Speaker 1: Prime Minister Anthony Alberanesi's messaging about this, Yeah, that they

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Speaker 1: are wanting to help parents with this huge issue what

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Speaker 1: they see as a huge issue with social media. So

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Speaker 1: in their explanation of the bill, they said that parents

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Speaker 1: feel unsupported to make choices about when their children should

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Speaker 1: be on social media, and many are overwhelmed. That was

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Speaker 1: another word that kept coming up with the word overwhelmed

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Speaker 1: by the pressure from their children and other families. So

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Speaker 1: the idea that we're in uncharted territory. We've never dealt

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Speaker 1: with this digital era where everyone is on social media,

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Speaker 1: and this bill is designed to help parents. And they

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Speaker 1: compared it to alcohol bands and cigarette bands that there

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Speaker 1: are bands out there already that do limit what young

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Speaker 1: people do and this is just another example of that.

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Speaker 1: And they said that setting this minimum age removed ambiguity

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Speaker 1: for parents about when the right time. Is what I

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Speaker 1: was thinking of when I was reading this is that

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Speaker 1: when I was younger, my parents had rules that was

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Speaker 1: separate to all of my friends about when I could

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Speaker 1: get a phone.

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Speaker 2: I was about to say yes, my mum was so

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Speaker 2: strict and it ended up that my best friends bought

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Speaker 2: a phone for me for my twelf birthday because they

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Speaker 2: went around twelfth birthday.

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Speaker 1: Wow, I wasn't allowed one till I was fourteen.

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Speaker 2: Well, I wasn't allowed one went around my parents.

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Speaker 1: It was that an ear piercings was not allowed. It

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Speaker 1: used to there are no babies with me. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: was very act about that one. But this is basically

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Speaker 1: saying that there will be no difference in when young

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Speaker 1: people can be on social media. Now there are the parents'

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Speaker 1: choice exactly, it's the government's shows and for why they

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Speaker 1: don't think children should be on social media, they talked

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Speaker 1: about the harms experienced by young people. There was a

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Speaker 1: big focus on mental health, which I think is well

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Speaker 1: document that there is this big concern that young people

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Speaker 1: being on social media is really bad for their mental health.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean I think that part is fairly

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Speaker 2: self expres planetary. Anyone that is around a young person

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Speaker 2: can see what happens when they spend a lot of

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Speaker 2: their lives online. But I guess the gray area emerges

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Speaker 2: when we talk about enforcement. You're referred there to alcohol bands.

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Speaker 2: When you are under the age of eighteen, you're not

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Speaker 2: allowed to drink alcohol, the reality being a lot of

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Speaker 2: people drink alcohol under the age of eighteen. How I've heard,

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Speaker 2: I've been told, So how is this sort of a

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Speaker 2: bill being imposed when it's not actually something that physically

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Speaker 2: can be restricted by, say the police.

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Speaker 1: So basically what this bill does is say that there

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Speaker 1: is going to be this ban, but it doesn't exactly

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Speaker 1: lay out how they will enforce that yet, and that's

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Speaker 1: because they're saying that this law won't come into effect

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Speaker 1: for another twelve months, at least another twelve months, so

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Speaker 1: they're saying that we've got the time to figure out

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Speaker 1: exactly how to enforce this. I kind of thought about

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Speaker 1: it as like, think of them as the architect and

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Speaker 1: then laying out the plans, and they've now locked in

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Speaker 1: that plan, but now they have to figure out how

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Speaker 1: to actually build the house that they've just locked in.

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Speaker 2: I mean. An interesting part to that, as with any

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Speaker 2: bill that passed last week, is that the Labor government

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Speaker 2: could lose power at the next selection and so it

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Speaker 2: could be a different interior designer filling out that home.

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Speaker 1: Although the only difference I guess is that the Coalition

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Speaker 1: is in support of this. Yes, But what we do

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Speaker 1: know is that the responsibility will fall on social media

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Speaker 1: companies to enforce the ban. So it will be up

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Speaker 1: to Instagram, for example, to ensure that they don't have

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Speaker 1: people under sixteen on their platform in Australia, and if

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Speaker 1: they're caught not complying, we know that it will result

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Speaker 1: in a fifty million dollar fine up to a fifty

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Speaker 1: million dollar fine. Another thing to note is that the

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Speaker 1: government is very clear that, of course, just like any law,

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Speaker 1: the rules will be broken, just like you mentioned with alcohol.

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Speaker 1: You know, obviously a lot of people do still drink

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Speaker 1: under eighteen, and they're saying this is no different. We

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Speaker 1: are very aware that there will be many people who

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Speaker 1: break this law, but think of this as us just

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Speaker 1: setting the guard rails, and also holding social media companies

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Speaker 1: to a ca but setting the guardrails there for parents

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Speaker 1: again to take away the ambiguity behind the choice.

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Speaker 2: I think one of the big things when we talk

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Speaker 2: about how long it's going to be until it's actually enforced,

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Speaker 2: that perhaps is important to touch on is the fact

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Speaker 2: that the technology that's going to sit behind this ban

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Speaker 2: hasn't actually been finalized. So the government have said that

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Speaker 2: it will be supported by age verification technology that's currently

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Speaker 2: still in its trial stages, and so in terms of

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Speaker 2: how it will be enforced in a very material sense,

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Speaker 2: we still don't really have that either. So that will

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Speaker 2: have to play out of the next twelve months as

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Speaker 2: we see the results of those trials exactly.

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Speaker 1: And that's what I was saying with that they have

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Speaker 1: the twelve months now to figure out exactly what this

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Speaker 1: will actually look like for the tech companies.

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Speaker 2: And I guess there is one of the points of

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Speaker 2: criticism that have emerged, and I won't jump the gun.

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Speaker 2: I know you want to talk about that a bit later.

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Speaker 2: But the fact that should the government have waited until

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Speaker 2: all of those things were in place in order to

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Speaker 2: pass that legislation. Clearly they decided and that this was

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Speaker 2: worthwhile to pass now. And part of that, as you said,

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Speaker 2: was the fact that it is supported by not just

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Speaker 2: the Labor government but also the opposition. In a rare

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Speaker 2: moment of bipartisanship. It passed the Senate with almost all

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Speaker 2: of the Coalition supporting. There were two coalition senators who

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Speaker 2: crossed the floor. Why don't you tell me a bit

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Speaker 2: about where the coalition stands on this issue.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So they have been very strong in pushing for

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Speaker 1: the government to introduce this ban. So the Opposition leader

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Speaker 1: Peter Dundon in June actually he said that he would

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Speaker 1: introduce a band himself within one hundred days of coming

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Speaker 1: to power if the Coalition was to win the next election,

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Speaker 1: which is due by May next year. So they again

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Speaker 1: were really pushing for this to happen. Like you said,

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Speaker 1: there were two Coalition senators who opposed the bill. Zara,

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Speaker 1: you were just talking about how the companies will do

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Speaker 1: this with the technology and what kind of technology they

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Speaker 1: will build. I was just watching an interview that Peter

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Speaker 1: Dunnon did with The Today Show on Friday, and he

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Speaker 1: said something that piqued my interest. He said, the companies

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Speaker 1: have the technology now without collecting any of your data,

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Speaker 1: they can identify your face as being under or over sixteen,

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Speaker 1: and they should deploy that technology as they do across

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Speaker 1: a number of their other platforms. So basically, he's saying

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Speaker 1: that the platforms themselves should be literally looking at the

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Speaker 1: faces of their users through the cameras on their phone

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Speaker 1: and determining whether you're over or under sixteen.

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Speaker 2: That is certainly one way to do it. It seems

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Speaker 2: like the government will look at a bunch of different options.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not sure if that one will get through it.

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Speaker 1: From my reading from the explainers on the bill, what

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Speaker 1: they are suggesting is more uploading documentation like photo ID

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Speaker 1: to you determine the age.

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Speaker 2: Of the users, not just looking at the face of

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Speaker 2: someone or using AI to assess the age of someone. No, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: who doinating.

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Speaker 1: Where the technology will take us though, so.

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Speaker 2: Dude and clearly a big proponent of this ban. But

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Speaker 2: it wasn't all smooth sailing for the government's bill in

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Speaker 2: the Senate. In almost as rare a demonstration of unity,

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Speaker 2: the entire cross Bench voted together against this bill. So

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Speaker 2: just a quick refresher that when we talk about the

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Speaker 2: cross bench, we're talking about minor parties and independence, So

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Speaker 2: the whole cross bench includes the Greens and then those

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Speaker 2: independent and other smaller minor parties. The Greens were the

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Speaker 2: most vocal in their criticism of this bill. What did

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Speaker 2: they say.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they're calling it the boomers social Media Ban, which

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Speaker 1: I think gives you a pretty good idea of their

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Speaker 1: thoughts on this. In a statement, they said this ban

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Speaker 1: would have serious negative consequences for young people and they

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Speaker 1: say that whilst they see and admit that there are

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Speaker 1: already negative consequences to social media, they're saying that this

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Speaker 1: ban will make it even worse. So the Greens spokesperson

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Speaker 1: for Communications, Senator Sarah Hanson Young said they agree that

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Speaker 1: something needs to be done, but they argued that this

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Speaker 1: is not the way to do it. She said it

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Speaker 1: won't make young people safer online, and it doesn't make

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Speaker 1: social media safer for anyone. She went on, young people

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Speaker 1: will be pushed to darker space is on the web,

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Speaker 1: and regional, marginalized and vulnerable kids will be further isolated.

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Speaker 2: And that's the point that we've heard reflected in some

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Speaker 2: of the expert commentary that's come out from child psychologists

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Speaker 2: and from others in this space, who are suggesting that

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Speaker 2: those who find community online and especially on social media,

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Speaker 2: if they are from a diverse group, might have that

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Speaker 2: gone tomorrow, and that that could be a big risk

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Speaker 2: factor for those young people. I think I know what

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Speaker 2: the next sentence is going to be, but I'll ask

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Speaker 2: it anyway. Did the tech platforms like this band?

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Speaker 1: It will shock you to know that they are against it.

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Speaker 1: Meta who owns Instagram and Facebook and also WhatsApp, who,

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Speaker 1: like we said, are not affected, but Instagram and Facebook

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Speaker 1: certainly are. They said that they respect the laws of Australia,

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Speaker 1: but also our concern the process was rushed and that

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Speaker 1: the government didn't properly consider the evidence. We touched on

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Speaker 1: the point about this legislation being rushed a little earlier,

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Speaker 1: but I do think it's worth mentioning that this was

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Speaker 1: I think you can pretty objectively say that this legislation

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Speaker 1: went through a lot quicker than many other pieces of

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Speaker 1: legislation that the Government has introduced before.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and in part of course that's because they knew

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Speaker 2: they had the support of the opposition. But another part

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Speaker 2: of that is that usually a piece of legislation will

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Speaker 2: be referred to committee and that committee can take anywhere

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Speaker 2: from a week to seven months to respond back with

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Speaker 2: their recommendations. That was all done within a day.

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Speaker 1: Yes, the hearings for that inquiry was all done within

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Speaker 1: a day, which by any measure is very quick in

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Speaker 1: terms of what evidence Metal was referring to when they

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Speaker 1: said that the government hadn't properly considered the evidence. They

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Speaker 1: said that the Parliament's own committee, which we were just

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Speaker 1: talking about. So the causal link with social media appears

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Speaker 1: unclear with respect to the mental health of young Australians.

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Speaker 1: So basically they're saying that there isn't enough evidence to

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Speaker 1: directly link negative mental health consequences with young people from

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Speaker 1: social media. We've also heard from Elon Musk, who owns X.

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Speaker 1: He said it seems like quote a backdoorway to control

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Speaker 1: access to the Internet by all Australians.

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Speaker 2: Again a fairly unsurprising comment there from the owners of

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Speaker 2: these huge platforms.

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Speaker 1: He is quite critical of this Australian government. There's been

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Speaker 1: quite a few instances.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, to the point of us being a tiny country

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Speaker 2: on the other side of the world. Elon Musk has

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Speaker 2: spent quite a bit of his time recently focusing in

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Speaker 2: on us. Billy, I do want to just finish up,

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Speaker 2: because if our comment section is anything to go by,

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Speaker 2: there is a lot of support for this bill around

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Speaker 2: the world. How has it been received?

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Speaker 1: You mentioned our comment section. We did poll our audience

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Speaker 1: about whether they were in support of this and I

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Speaker 1: think it was something like ninety percent.

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Speaker 2: Yep, it was overwhelmingly in support. We did do that

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Speaker 2: before the actual legislation had been introduced, but we knew

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Speaker 2: pretty well what it was going to be. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: a lot of support from our audience of young people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so as well as that, there are also many

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Speaker 1: parents who are in support of this. But if we

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Speaker 1: look at the global landscape, in particular, international governments seem

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Speaker 1: to be in support of the Australian government's move. The

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Speaker 1: French Education Minister An Genote has said that the EU

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Speaker 1: should follow Australia's lead. Like we said before, France actually

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Speaker 1: already has a band that keeps people under fifteen off

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Speaker 1: social media, but they are pushing for the rest of

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Speaker 1: Europe to also implement a similar ban. So the French

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Speaker 1: Education minister said, we absolutely urgently need something to be

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Speaker 1: put in place, and that was off the back of

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Speaker 1: Australia's ban. The Danish Prime Minister also wants an age

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Speaker 1: related ban for social media, as well as Norway. So

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Speaker 1: there are a whole list of countries that are in

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Speaker 1: support of what Australia is doing.

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Speaker 2: It will be fascinating to watch and see if other

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Speaker 2: countries follow suit. You know, clearly Australia has shown that

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Speaker 2: it can move quickly on a matter like this, so

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Speaker 2: I suspect that if there is the will and the

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Speaker 2: desire to do so, other governments around the world might

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Speaker 2: follow and we might see the further bands across the world.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Billy, and thank you for listening to another

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Speaker 2: episode of The Daily Odds.

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Speaker 1: And before we go, Zia. Today is the second of

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Speaker 1: December somehow, so November is over and I quickly just

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Speaker 1: want to say that November was our biggest month for

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Speaker 1: podcast downloads ever, our highest listenership ever, and we want

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Speaker 1: to say a big thank you to every single one

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Speaker 1: of you who has been supporting the Daily Ods listening

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Speaker 1: to us every day and also every afternoon. Now your

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Speaker 1: support means the world to us and we really appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much and have a great day. My

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Speaker 1: name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Adunda Bungelung

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Speaker 1: Kalkuttin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily os acknowledges that

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Speaker 1: this podcast is recorded on the lands of the Gadighl

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Speaker 1: people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait

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Speaker 1: Island and nations. We pay our respects to the first

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Speaker 1: peoples of these countries, both past and present.